A Magical World War, or What if Voldemort had won?

[pendell]

See I think the issue is we have very different ideas of the characters. I remember reading about a cold, calculating, ruthless man who outsmarted and outgunned the wizarding world at every turn. And that's exactly what I saw. Yes he uses fear in his tactics. So do a lot of real world powers. That doesn't invalidate any and all use of tactics.

And you simply can't say the only thing he was doing during their fifth year was studying wand lore, and that this proves incompetence. The death eaters managed to dance circles around the ministry the entire time including breaking the most dangerous of his followers out of askaban.

Anyways my point is you seem to have separated Voldemort from any and all competence shown by the villains in your head and are using that as a justification for him doing something stupid in his coming take over of everything. When even if he was separated the fact that his minions can be that competent should not be ignored.

I'm a bit at a loss compared to some other people in this thread because I have only passing familiarity with the books, but my impression is that Voldemort is quite competent within his area of expertise. But being good at one thing is not the same thing as being omnicompetent. I think he would fall into the trap that Vaarsuvius fell into when ze sought 'ultimate arcane power' -- believing that magic is all powerful, and having a blind spot when it comes to non-magical solutions. This is not helped by his arrogance, which may imply a fatal underestimation of muggle capabilities.

Certainly he underestimated the capabilities of mudbloods, which is why he lost in the books.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Tyndmyr]

See I think the issue is we have very different ideas of the characters. I remember reading about a cold, calculating, ruthless man who outsmarted and outgunned the wizarding world at every turn. And that's exactly what I saw. Yes he uses fear in his tactics. So do a lot of real world powers. That doesn't invalidate any and all use of tactics.

And you simply can't say the only thing he was doing during their fifth year was studying wand lore, and that this proves incompetence. The death eaters managed to dance circles around the ministry the entire time including breaking the most dangerous of his followers out of askaban.

Anyways my point is you seem to have separated Voldemort from any and all competence shown by the villains in your head and are using that as a justification for him doing something stupid in his coming take over of everything. When even if he was separated the fact that his minions can be that competent should not be ignored.

The wizarding world was shown as vastly incompetent, even in comparison to the student protagonist and his young allies. Defeating them was no great feat of intellect.

His followers range from mustache wearing villains to the utterly insane. They are not a disciplined, tactical strike team.

[Emmerask]

Well there is still the possibility of a wraith-o-calypse.
The first part would be breeding (which happens in the book), when the critical mass is achieved, which is possible with wizards not controlling the population, you have a completely none responsive population (all trapped in their own mind) being devoured to create even more dementors.

Humanity can´t do anything against this, only problem would be that afterwards you would have billions of dementors roaming the country which would also be a very real threat to wizards... but voldemort is not really what you would call a sane person so that would be a very real possibility if everything else fails ^^

[Xondoure]

Well there is still the possibility of a wraith-o-calypse.
The first part would be breeding (which happens in the book), when the critical mass is achieved, which is possible with wizards not controlling the population, you have a completely none responsive population (all trapped in their own mind) being devoured to create even more dementors.

Humanity can´t do anything against this, only problem would be that afterwards you would have billions of dementors roaming the country which would also be a very real threat to wizards... but voldemort is not really what you would call a sane person so that would be a very real possibility if everything else fails ^^

The muggle world is nearing its end as all life drowns in never ending misery. And then upon the horizon, countless three feet tall figures emerge weapon in hand to fight the darkness. A young man walks up in a bright purple suit.

"Not to fear. Chocolate's here. By the Charlie Bucketful."

Charlie and the Chocolate Factory vs. Dementors. Make it happen people.

[Nekura]

Wait what, when did they ever create more dementors? They don't even explain how anyone controls dementors. We are told of only one spell that has any affect on them the patronus and most wizards can't cast it. Although that might be because Dumbledore is intentionally dumbing down wizards by hiring incompetent teachers across the board not just in the "cursed" DADA position.

[The Glyphstone]

Well there is still the possibility of a wraith-o-calypse.
The first part would be breeding (which happens in the book), when the critical mass is achieved, which is possible with wizards not controlling the population, you have a completely none responsive population (all trapped in their own mind) being devoured to create even more dementors.

Humanity can´t do anything against this, only problem would be that afterwards you would have billions of dementors roaming the country which would also be a very real threat to wizards... but voldemort is not really what you would call a sane person so that would be a very real possibility if everything else fails ^^

Where are the billions of dementors coming from? The Dementor's Kiss does not create a new dementor, it just destroys the person. We know literally nothing about how dementors breed except that it is possible; if they need a sufficient food source (people to terrify), Kissing left and right would remove that food source.

[Xondoure]

The dark grey dreariness that was in book six or seven? That was Dementors breeding.

[Emmerask]

The last book actually says that they are breeding all over britain.

Also in the third book it was mentioned that given enough time in close contact with dementors will make them into a dementor themselves.

Presumably askhaban is not close enough contact else the death eaters there would have become dementors too.

[Ravens_cry]

The dark grey dreariness that was in book six or seven? That was Dementors breeding.

Does that mean Harry Potter counts as erotica for Dementors?

[Misery Esquire]

The muggle world is nearing its end as all life drowns in never ending misery. And then upon the horizon, countless three feet tall figures emerge weapon in hand to fight the darkness. A young man walks up in a bright purple suit.

"Not to fear. Chocolate's here. By the Charlie Bucketful."

Charlie and the Chocolate Factory vs. Dementors. Make it happen people.

Dementors ; "Woooosh, we're creepy and want to eat your soul."
Wonka ; "It happens every time, they all become blueberries."
Deme- Blueberries ; "What?"
Wizard ; "That's unbelievable!"
Wonka ; "It's Wonkavision."
/cue theme

[Avilan the Grey]

Dementors ; "Woooosh, we're creepy and want to eat your soul."
Wonka ; "It happens every time, they all become blueberries."
Deme- Blueberries ; "What?"
Wizard ; "That's unbelievable!"
Wonka ; "It's Wonkavision."
/cue theme

Okay now I need a Dr Who vs Wonka vs Harry Potter crossover.

[Little Brother]

Dementors are the only threat, really. I doubt the Invisibility charms make you room temperature. Voldemort has talents and brains, but he is simply too far into the Koolaid to use it. It's like an evil Blue Lantern without a Green Latern with it.

He wastes the time he could be quietly prepping to kill mudbloods for teh lulz. He thinks muggles are cattle. They ca be dropped at will, tactics be damned.

Wizards are a good thousand years in the past. Seriously, most of them don't even understand what a compass is, or basic algebra, which we've had since Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī invented it in, what, 750-ish.

They are so hopelessly clueless. I mean, Voldemort's soul is a perfect example. How many evil wizards have there been? How many made Horcruxes? Now, tell me that, in the thousands of years(Or at least over a thousand) of Wizarding history, NO ONE thought of that. It's to the point where I theorize that excessive magic use causes brain damage.

Now, yes, a couple of wizards could teleport into Time Square and kill everyone there. Things to keep in mind: One, predator drones. I cannot say this enough. Wizard pops out of nowhere, predator drone drops on him. I mean, we outnumber the devoted ones, what, couple hundred thousand to one? The casualties would be unfortunate, but mostly irrelevant. Two: They'd simply be better off grabbing a bomb, teleporting, droping the bomb, and teleporting away. Gunpowder in over a millennium old. It isn't that complicated. Rockets, bombs, etc. aren't new. Also, even a crossbow would be deadlier than a wand in most cases, and how old are Cho Ko Nu?

Now, some wizards would defect. There are magical means to block teleportation, detect magic, etc. So, a couple of defections later, we know where every wizard is, when magic is being cast, can block teleports, etc. Their teleportation cannot be used for ganking important locations anymore. Their single biggest advantage is gone. Hiding is also gone. Now, we leave it to drones and ordinance.

Plus, there's the unbreakable vow, so terms of surrender are workable. You don't HAVE to go all the way to genocide.

[pendell]

I'm wondering .. has Harry Potter ever been adapted to the D20 system? That might give us some ideas of the weaknesses and strengths, of, say, Voldemort, who I assume would be an NPC in a module.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The Glyphstone]

D
They are so hopelessly clueless. I mean, Voldemort's soul is a perfect example. How many evil wizards have there been? How many made Horcruxes? Now, tell me that, in the thousands of years(Or at least over a thousand) of Wizarding history, NO ONE thought of that. It's to the point where I theorize that excessive magic use causes brain damage.

Not that you don't have valid points, but did you forget that Voldemort learned how to make his Horcrux from books? It had obviously been done in the past,. otherwise no one would have written about it in tomes of Dark magic. Where Voldemort was 'innovative' was in making seven Horcruxes - even the most evil wizards before him hadn't been willing to go that far; it wasn't his intelligence that was exceptional, it was his depravity. Even Evil Has Limits, basically, unless you're Voldemort.

[Little Brother]

Not that you don't have valid points, but did you forget that Voldemort learned how to make his Horcrux from books? It had obviously been done in the past,. otherwise no one would have written about it in tomes of Dark magic. Where Voldemort was 'innovative' was in making seven Horcruxes - even the most evil wizards before him hadn't been willing to go that far; it wasn't his intelligence that was exceptional, it was his depravity. Even Evil Has Limits, basically, unless you're Voldemort.

The splitting it multiple times was what I was referring to. I remember that it was the thing for evil overlord wizards, but nobody had done multiple.

Now say I'm some evil overlord. I want immortality. Seven, thirteen, a hundred plot coupons are better than one. If all of them are required to be destroyed for you to die, then more=better. If no other wizard thought of this, that just supports my idea of magic causing brain damage. I mean, that's just like "figuring out" that you can add six inches to a short sword, and make it more effective. Or maybe that you can extend a magazine to hold more bullets.

[Emmerask]

I think the problem lies more in the splitting of your soul part, from the books it seemed that he had to undergo numerous "dangerous transformations" to be even able to split his soul more then once.
And walking around with only a tiny fraction of yourself can´t be that good a deal I would guess ^^

[Murska]

I think it's sort of implied that tearing your soul to pieces has some drawbacks as well, at least to people who aren't psychopaths.

I think it's been thoroughly established that Wizards won't win a shooting war, or any sort of a war where Muggles become aware of their existance, but intelligent Wizards would on the other hand easily subvert and take control of the entire world.

Debate is just about whether Voldy would do that or not, and the consensus seems to mostly point towards not.

[Xondoure]

I think it's sort of implied that tearing your soul to pieces has some drawbacks as well, at least to people who aren't psychopaths.

I think it's been thoroughly established that Wizards won't win a shooting war, or any sort of a war where Muggles become aware of their existance, but intelligent Wizards would on the other hand easily subvert and take control of the entire world.

Debate is just about whether Voldy would do that or not, and the consensus seems to mostly point towards not.

I'd argue even if muggles were aware it would never turn into a shooting match unless the wizards have seriously messed up.

Also as to heat sensors, I repeat: sensory equipment gets shot to hell with magic. This has been well established.

[Murska]

Well, magic is compatible with science in the setting, ergo I'm quite confident that Muggles could figure out ways to study and counter it, and they'd also most likely gain help from turncoat Wizards as mentioned. The sheer manpower advantage Muggles have means the Wizards simply cannot control all of them, so they'd have to control the organizations that already control the people, and if people are aware of the threat they won't be controlled by said organizations.

[The Glyphstone]

The splitting it multiple times was what I was referring to. I remember that it was the thing for evil overlord wizards, but nobody had done multiple.

Now say I'm some evil overlord. I want immortality. Seven, thirteen, a hundred plot coupons are better than one. If all of them are required to be destroyed for you to die, then more=better. If no other wizard thought of this, that just supports my idea of magic causing brain damage. I mean, that's just like "figuring out" that you can add six inches to a short sword, and make it more effective. Or maybe that you can extend a magazine to hold more bullets.

As said below:

I think the problem lies more in the splitting of your soul part, from the books it seemed that he had to undergo numerous "dangerous transformations" to be even able to split his soul more then once.
And walking around with only a tiny fraction of yourself can´t be that good a deal I would guess ^^

I think it's sort of implied that tearing your soul to pieces has some drawbacks as well, at least to people who aren't psychopaths.

Assuming you're not a raging psychopathic lunatic, LB, you wouldn't be wanting to create more than one Horcrux, if even that. Without wandering any closer to the metaphysical aspects, it's blatantly obvious that Horcruxes are far from simply easy immortality. Sure, you're going to live forever if you have your hundreds of Horcruxes, but at what cost? Voldemort had seven, and was a deranged nutcase - I suspect these were not unrelated, given how Rowling's world makes death a big deal. It's not like D&D where the afterlife has a revolving door, and thus making yourself a horcruxphylactery only requires burning down a few orphanages by throwing flaming puppies at them - death is permanent and irreversable (barring a single mythical artifact that can't even get it completely right), so avoiding death comes at a heavy price. Avoiding death in multiple layers is a price so heavy Voldemort was the first person insane enough to attempt it.

[comicshorse]

I'd argue even if muggles were aware it would never turn into a shooting match unless the wizards have seriously messed up.

Also as to heat sensors, I repeat: sensory equipment gets shot to hell with magic. This has been well established.

Really ? It says technical devices don't work around Hogwarts. That the only example I can think of

[Xondoure]

Really ? It says technical devices don't work around Hogwarts. That the only example I can think of

That charm is available, but I was referring to how easy Slughorn found it to flummox muggle security.

[Little Brother]

Assuming you're not a raging psychopathic lunatic, LB, you wouldn't be wanting to create more than one Horcrux, if even that. Without wandering any closer to the metaphysical aspects, it's blatantly obvious that Horcruxes are far from simply easy immortality.

Voldemort made it seem pretty easy.

Sure, you're going to live forever if you have your hundreds of Horcruxes, but at what cost? Voldemort had seven, and was a deranged nutcase - I suspect these were not unrelated, given how Rowling's world makes death a big deal.

I agree, they are not unrelated. However, I think it's pretty clear it's the other way around. Look at Tommy in school. He basically had a bunch of mudbloods eaten by a snake for kick'n'giggles. Also, hunting around in the girls bathroom for a magic slide and room. Not for anything else a creeper might do in there, but a magic, probably-nonexistant room, plus, he was otherwise a general psychopath(And a bad one. More like Ramsey than Roose). I mean, that doesn't quite sound to me like the model of ideal mental health

It's not like D&D where the afterlife has a revolving door, and thus making yourself a horcruxphylactery only requires burning down a few orphanages by throwing flaming puppies at them - death is permanent and irreversable (barring a single mythical artifact that can't even get it completely right), so avoiding death comes at a heavy price. Avoiding death in multiple layers is a price so heavy Voldemort was the first person insane enough to attempt it.

Really? There have been plenty of psycho dictators in the world, and plenty of mad wizards I have trouble believing that NONE of them would have done it. Plus, being invisible, incorporeal, and stupid for a decade tends not to be good for mental health.

[thubby]

im not a huge HP fan, but aren't the wizards hiding from muggles for a reason?

[Marillion]

Really? There have been plenty of psycho dictators in the world, and plenty of mad wizards I have trouble believing that NONE of them would have done it. Plus, being invisible, incorporeal, and stupid for a decade tends not to be good for mental health.

There may have been others enough insane to do it, and others who knew how to do it, and others who possessed the sheer power to do it, but I don't think there were very many people who were all three. It takes a very special combination of power, knowledge, and depravity to fracture your soul in a controlled manner even once, let alone seven times. If he weren't a direct descendant of Salazar Slytherin, I don't think he'd have been able to do it.

[pendell]

That charm is available, but I was referring to how easy Slughorn found it to flummox muggle security.

How many levels in Rogue does Slughorn have? Just because he can do it easily doesn't mean all wizards can, any more than the fact that just because an expert burglar can defeat a home security system doesn't mean your average human -- or average soldier -- can do so.

It's not a reasonable comparison to assume that every wizard has the maximum capabilities revealed in the books by *one*, unless it specifically says or is reasonable to assume that all wizards have this capability. That all wizards have wands is pretty much a given. That all wizards are experts at defeating muggle security, or can become so given training, is another question.

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that there's a magical counter to every conceivable muggle security countermeasure. The question is, is there *one* counter that works on everything? Will it continue to work when new countermeasures come up? Does it have to be adapted? Or do you need a brand new charm? I'm pretty sure spells to stop muggle IR devices didn't exist before IR devices were actually invented. How long did it take wizards to counteract them? Did you know, for example, it's possible to send information over a power line ? Do the wizards?

So ... yes, there's probably a charm for every known muggle technology , and possibly some charms that work on several or are 'all-purpose'. The thing is, in a good security environment muggles wouldn't depend on any one technology to give an answer. They would use a number of technologies to present a spectrum of threats.

These techs can be countered by muggles with sufficient intel and skill, so it can probably be done by wizards as well. But if I were a wizard, I wouldn't just simply *assume* that my charms would always work perfectly, or that it is a trivial thing for any wizard to defeat muggle security. I would assume that, any time I attempted it, I was rolling the dice. And even if there is only a 1 in 100 chance of getting caught that still means I'm certain to have an encounter in 100 attempts.

In the real world, there are techniques and technologies to defeat all known security. The fact that these exist does not mean that security is not worth doing, or that a sufficiently motivated criminal can break into a bank vault "with ease".

Once muggles become aware of a security breach, the wizards will be in a 'security arms race' with the muggles as both sides develop techniques to defeat the other, much as IT professionals and hackers are in a constant arms race to protect computers.

In such an arms race, the muggles have a distinct advantage both in their numbers and in their ability to perceive non-magical solutions.

We keep talking in this thread about muggles being at a disadvantage because they don't understand magic. This is true. But the wizards equally don't understand muggle technology. So both sides have glaring blind spots with respect to the other. As they fight each other and learn from each other, the side with the larger resources ultimately has the advantage, and will prevail in a protracted conflict.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Tyndmyr]

Well there is still the possibility of a wraith-o-calypse.
The first part would be breeding (which happens in the book), when the critical mass is achieved, which is possible with wizards not controlling the population, you have a completely none responsive population (all trapped in their own mind) being devoured to create even more dementors.

Humanity can´t do anything against this, only problem would be that afterwards you would have billions of dementors roaming the country which would also be a very real threat to wizards... but voldemort is not really what you would call a sane person so that would be a very real possibility if everything else fails ^^

We're not at all sure how dementors reproduce, are we? It never is shown in the books. I wouldn't assume that them eating a human results in two dementors...if it does, given that they appear to be basically unkillable, it would have made little sense to be engaged in feeding them.

So, if they reproduce, it would almost have to be very slowly. Immortality and rapid breeding would have already led to the dementorpocalypse.

And given azkaban, this proximity = reproduction thing would seem to be pretty suspect.

I'd argue even if muggles were aware it would never turn into a shooting match unless the wizards have seriously messed up.

Also as to heat sensors, I repeat: sensory equipment gets shot to hell with magic. This has been well established.

Only in close proximity. Things like motion sensors work for a notable distance, with nothing more complex than a beam of light anywhere close to the magical source.

Additionally, "disrupts electronics" is a form of detection in itself. A remarkably useful one.

[Misery Esquire]

Okay now I need a Dr Who vs Wonka vs Harry Potter crossover.

More difficult...

Doctor ; "Yeah, this is definitly a golden ticket. Can I get in to see the chocolate?"
Wonka ; "Positivitly!"
Harry ; "I've got a golden ticket!"
Wonka ; "Wonderful, you bespectacled lad!"
Voldemort ; "Haaaaarrry Poottter...
Doctor ; "The dark wizard Voldemort?"
Harry ; "VOLDEMORT!"
RON ; "HARRY, IT'S HE-WHO-MUST-NOT-BE-NAMED!"
Doctor ; "Now, now. My name is an entirely different plot."
Oompah Loompahs ;

Oompah, loompah, doompadedoo
We've know a little rhyme just for you
When you're a dark wizard and kill all your friends
You'll find yourself coming to a bad end
Like Peter Pettigrew and
His deadly hand!

What do you get when you practise magic?
Bending over books with your back in a crick
Spending all day becoming ever more slick
Can't you give your wand a flick?

Or are you secretly Snape?

Oompah, Loompah, Do-ba-de-doo
If you're a wizard,
we're coming for you.

"

Doctor ; "That's a bit odd."
Wonka ; "Odd? Sometimes you're stranger for the strangening."
Doctor ; "That's what they are! Strangians!"
Wonka ; "No, Oompah Loompas."
Oompah Loompas ;
"

Oompah, Loompa, Do-pa-de-doo
Hey, there's a traveller who goes very far
Back and forth in time
But he likes our candy bars
Working on Earth is not a crime

But you are nosy and you can see,
That we will cook you alive at a thousand degrees
So your blue box cannot save you now
Wouldn't the Daleks be Proud?

That we managed it with no commercial breaks

"


Voldemort ; "ENOUGH SINGING! HAVE AT YOU Avada Kedav-"
Doctor ; /waves Sonic Screwdriver
*CHOCOLATE RIVER MALFUNCTION HERE*
Chocolate Doctor ; "Well, you can't expect to just wander around killing people willy-nilly."
Chocolate Harry ; "Mmmmph!"
Chocolate Voldemort ; "YOUR PUNY MAGIC CANNOT STOP M-!"
Wonka ; "Chocolate people! Now if only there were some chocolate cannibals to sell to..."
Ron ; "Hey, I'm bac-... ...Is that a chocolate Harry Potter?"
Wonka ; "Why, yes. I suppose it is! Hairy chocolate. I don't know about that name. It'll need more barbers involved."
Ron ; "...Can I have the chocolate Harry?"
Hermione ; "Ron, that's the real Harry."
Ron ; "..."
...
...
Ron ; "Can I have it anyway?"
Dalek ; "THE ONLY THING YOU WILL HAVE IS THE CHANCE TO BE EXTERMINATED."

[Avilan the Grey]

Stuff

Thank you for making my afternoon.

[Philistine]

The really insuperable problem with this discussion is that we don't know how magic works in Rowling's world. And I don't even mean "what forces does magic manipulate?," I mean "what specific charms/spells/potions are available, and what exactly are the effects of any given one?" Even with common effects like the Shield charm, we don't know how long it lasts, how strong it is, whether it can stand up to repeated attacks, whether a wizard can activate it fast enough to matter against gun-armed Muggles, whether it gives all-round or directional protection, and so on. Let alone something complicated - like, what does it mean to say that a location is Unplottable? Or worse, what exactly does the "anti-tech" Charm do? Technology isn't just cars, cell phones, and computers, you know - basics like books and indoor plumbing and controlled use of fire are still technology, too (even if we no longer consider them to be advanced technology), and those work just fine inside Hogwarts. The charm doesn't block out the light and heat of the Sun, would/could it distinguish between that and the fireball a nuclear device initiated just above the upper bound of the "no-tech zone"? What happens if we dump a couple of canisters of mustard gas at the castle gates? Or take Polyjuice Potion - how good exactly is the imitation? Would it get you past a fingerprint reader? Retina scanner? Voiceprint ID? DNA test? (And boy that one would open an ugly door - like, "I wish I could un-think that" ugly.)

We also don't know how common proficiency with any given spell or charm is in the Wizarding community, especially the ones with potentially game-changing effects: per the earlier citation, half of all adult Witches and Wizards can't effectivly use a Shield charm, which is a basic defensive utility they should have been taught in school. Shapeshifting - whether as an Animagus or via Polyjuice Potion - is apparently so rare that nobody bothers to actually defend against it, despite recognizing the risks (hence the requirement that Animagi register with the Ministry). And the rarity of Invisibility is plot-critical several times over the series.

And of course, none of this ever mattered to Rowling, as far as I can tell. Worldbuilding played second fiddle to storytelling - and a distant second at that. There's no apparent system to magic in the setting beyond "what the plot requires right now."

TL;DR, we don't know how powerful magic really is in Harry Potter's world; too many variables are left undefined.