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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kane0's Avatar

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    Default Skills Simplification (3.P, PEACH)

    Hey Playgrounders!

    To make things more streamlined in our group I cut down and altered the skill list (from 34+ to just 19 if you're curious):

    - Trade = Craft + Profession + Appraise
    Cannot be made untrained
    Associated Ability (Choose your best of:) Int / Wis

    - Speech (Assertive) = Bluff + Diplomacy
    Can be made untrained
    Associated Ability (Choose your best of:) Cha / Int

    - Speech (Aggressive) = Intimidate + Taunt
    Can be made untrained
    Associated Ability (Choose your best of:) Cha / Str

    - Acrobatics = Acrobatics (Tumble) + Fly + Escape Artist
    Can be made untrained
    Associated Ability: Dex

    - Athletics = Climb + Swim + Acrobatics (Jump)
    Can be made untrained
    Associated Ability: Str

    - Stealth = Hide + Move Silently
    Can be made untrained
    Associated Ability: Dex

    - Deception = Sleight of hand + Forgery + Disguise
    Can be made untrained
    Associated Ability: Dex

    - Know (Locations and Terrain) = Know: Local, Geography
    Cannot be made untrained
    Associated Ability: Int

    - Know (Architecture) = Know: Engineering, Dungeoneering
    Cannot be made untrained
    Associated Ability: Int

    - Know (Extraplanar) = Know: Planes, Religion
    Cannot be made untrained
    Associated Ability: Int

    - Know (History and Nobility) = Know: History, Nobility
    Cannot be made untrained
    Associated Ability: Int

    - Spellcraft = Spellcraft + Know (Arcana)
    Cannot be made untrained
    Associated Ability (Choose your best of:) Int / Wis, or spellcasting ability.

    - UMD= UMD
    Cannot be made untrained
    Associated Ability (Choose your best of:) Int / Wis / Cha

    - Perform = Perform
    Cannot be made untrained
    Associated Ability (Choose your best of:) Cha / Int

    - Perception = Perception + Sense Motive
    Can be made untrained
    Associated Ability: Wis

    - Manage Animal = Handle Animal + Ride
    Can be made untrained
    Associated Ability (Choose your best of:) Dex / Int / Wis

    - Survival = Survival + Heal + Know (Nature)
    Can be made untrained
    Associated Ability (Choose your best of:) Int / Wis

    - Disable Device = Disable Device + Repair
    Cannot be made untrained
    Associated Ability (Choose your best of:) Dex / Int

    - Linguistics = Speak Language + Decipher Script
    Cannot be made untrained
    Associated Ability: Int

    And once I did that I changed the amount of skills one receives per level:
    - 2 + Int stays as 2 + Int This becomes known as the slow skill progression
    - Both 4 + Int and 6+ Int become 4 + Int This becomes known as the medium skill progression
    - 8 + Int becomes 6 + Int This becomes known as the fast skill progression

    Alrighty then, please PEACH away!
    Last edited by Kane0; 2012-08-30 at 10:04 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    DracoDei's Avatar

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    Default Re: Skills Reduction (3.P, PEACH)

    Putting Survival and Heal together seems like a mismatch. Better to combine Survival with Know(Nature) or Know(Geography) from a thematic POV.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2012-06-01 at 11:41 AM.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Skills Reduction (3.P, PEACH)

    Intimidate seems a little misplaced, because now any kneecap bustin' thug will also be able to lie well and talk like a diplomat.

    I don't know how you would fix that, sorry for the non-help.

    I approve of the system in general though, I always thought no one got enough skills, and this fixes that withought just spamming skill points.
    Last edited by madock345; 2012-06-01 at 12:34 PM.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Skills Reduction (3.P, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Putting Survival and Heal together seems like a mismatch. Better to combine Survival with Know(Nature) or Know(Geography) from a thematic POV.
    On the contrary, I thought they go well together. I think knowing what to do (and what not to do) out in the wilderness without anybody to hold your hand goes quite well with knowing how to patch yourself up when something does go wrong, which it always eventually does.
    Besides, kthe nowledges have been reworked a little too much for it to be merged with a knowledge, the same reason why Know (Arcana) isn't in Spellcraft.

    Quote Originally Posted by madock345 View Post
    Intimidate seems a little misplaced, because now any kneecap bustin' thug will also be able to lie well and talk like a diplomat.

    I don't know how you would fix that, sorry for the non-help.

    I approve of the system in general though, I always thought no one got enough skills, and this fixes that withought just spamming skill points.
    Why thank you! My group liked it so I thought it was worth sharing
    Intimidate is a tricky one. I could remove intimidate entirely and make it a different mechanic:
    Say you intimidate as a d20 roll then add your HD and Cha or Str modifier (whichever is best) against your opponent.
    Your opponent(s) can then choose to make an opposed Intimidate check or make a will save. DC can be easily altered based on circumstances.
    How does that sound?

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Default Re: Skills Simplification (3.P, PEACH)

    Bump for the intimidate idea.

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    Default Re: Skills Simplification (3.P, PEACH)

    I don't have a huge problem with Intimidate being associated with the other speech skills. You have to know how to talk well, or at least project your personality well to be truly scary. I'm not sure about Heal and Survival being together, though. Heal's unique enough that it may be worth leaving on its own, anyway, or adding a Knowledge (Anatomy) type skill.

    The Knowledge skills, though, look problematic. Common Knowledge would seem to consist entirely of low-DC checks, or even things that shouldn't need checks at all. Meanwhile, Uncommon Knowledge covers... well, everything.

    I would do something like:
    • Arcana gets folded into Spellcraft
    • Nature and Geography get lumped with Survival
    • All the monster identification aspects get folded into a new Cryptozoology skill
    • Other skills, like Religion and History, are covered by a single special Knowledge skill. You put ranks in it normally, but you also have to buy "specialties" in Engineering, Dungeoneering, History, a given locality, Nobility, Religion, and the Planes. Each specialty costs a skill point, like learning a new language, but they all use the same Knowledge skill ranks.


    (PS: It would be nice if you took the changes out of the spoiler blocks. They're the focus of the thread, after all-- no need to hide them.)
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2012-06-04 at 07:29 PM.

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  7. - Top - End - #7
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    Default Re: Skills Simplification (3.P, PEACH)

    Knowledge is the other one I have problems with.
    I'm tempted to do the NWN version and lump it all into Lore and grant anything else as assumed knowledge, but that would probably lead to complications.

    I'm not keen on having a lot of different knowledges, but at the same time I don't want everyone to be a sage. I'm taking any ideas at this point.

  8. - Top - End - #8
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    Default Re: Skills Simplification (3.P, PEACH)

    Engineering: Disable Device, Open Lock, Repair, and Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering)

    Knowledge (People and Events): Religion, Local, History, and Royalty and Nobility. Notes: a check of over 30 is impossible to performed as it would call for details unknown without epic level divinations through time

    Spellwork: Knowledge Arcana, the Planes, UMD, and Spellcraft into

    Focus: Knowledge Psionics, UPD, Psicraft, and Autohypnosis

    Perception: Search, Spot, Listen, Sense motive.

    Deception: Forgery, disguise, Slight of Hand, Move Silently, Hide, Use Rope

    Trainer: Handle Animal and Ride

    Survival: Survival, Heal, Know Dungeoneering, geography, nature

    Tradesman: Craft, Profession, Appraise

    Banter: Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy, Gather Information

    Acrobatics: Tumble, Fly, Escape artist, Hide, Move Silently

    Athletics: Swim, Jump, Climb

    Perform: Perform
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-06-05 at 09:31 PM.
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    Default Re: Skills Simplification (3.P, PEACH)

    Another Idea for Knowledges: 'Practical' and 'Theoretical'.

    Practical knowledge covers: Engineering, Dungeoneering, Local & Geography
    Theoretical knowledge covers: Planes, Religion, History & Nobility

    Know Arcana becomes part of Spellcraft
    Know Nature becomes part of Survival

    How does that sound?

  10. - Top - End - #10
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    Default Re: Skills Simplification (3.P, PEACH)

    Updated and tweaked a little.

    What does everyone think now?
    Also could I get opinions on using multiple attributes to determine bonuses to skills?

  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Default Re: Skills Simplification (3.P, PEACH)

    Choosing the best of two attributes is a nice touch. The knowledge division isn't bad. I'd still recommend moving Knowledge (Geography) into Survival and setting Heal on its own. Maybe compensate by folding Appraise into Trade.

    STaRS (and STaRS Lite)
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    A big book of player options for 5e, by me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

  12. - Top - End - #12
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    Default Re: Skills Simplification (3.P, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Engineering: Disable Device, Open Lock, Repair, and Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering)

    Knowledge (People and Events): Religion, Local, History, and Royalty and Nobility. Notes: a check of over 30 is impossible to performed as it would call for details unknown without epic level divinations through time

    Spellwork: Knowledge Arcana, the Planes, UMD, and Spellcraft into

    Focus: Knowledge Psionics, UPD, Psicraft, and Autohypnosis

    Perception: Search, Spot, Listen, Sense motive.

    Deception: Forgery, disguise, Slight of Hand, Move Silently, Hide, Use Rope

    Trainer: Handle Animal and Ride

    Survival: Survival, Heal, Know Dungeoneering, geography

    Tradesman: Craft, Profession, Appraise

    Banter: Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy, Gather Information

    Acrobatics: Tumble, Fly, Escape artist, Hide, Move Silently

    Athletics: Swim, Jump, Climb

    Perform: Perform
    or you know, acknowledge this post
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    Default Re: Skills Simplification (3.P, PEACH)

    I wouldn't mind putting appraise in with trade, but appraise can be used untrained. If I make the trade skill untrained would that unbalance things too much?

    Sorry, toapat. It got a little busy and didn't mention your post. You also reminded me that I had completely forgotten about linguistics

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    Default Re: Skills Simplification (3.P, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    I wouldn't mind putting appraise in with trade, but appraise can be used untrained. If I make the trade skill untrained would that unbalance things too much?

    Sorry, toapat. It got a little busy and didn't mention your post. You also reminded me that I had completely forgotten about linguistics
    Linguistics (Speak Language) is a skill in the same way that Profession (Soldier) is a skill. sure, you can take points in it, but it has no skill checks, you just gain abilities. and at that, Profession (soldier) would arguably be completely borked because in 3rd ed it would grant simple and martial proficiencies, and light, medium, heavy armor proficiencies, as well as shield proficiencies

    I mixed appraise into tradesman because one of the stupid loopholes in Craft and Profession is that you dont actually know the value of the crafted item when you make it

    ah, i see, we both missed Descipher script. I think i would stick that in tradesman, to poke fun at doctors, i left out concentration by virtue of because it shouldnt be there
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-06-05 at 09:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Skills Simplification (3.P, PEACH)

    In Pathfinder Linguistics contains both Decipher script and Speak language, and gets a little use here and there.

    Maybe add it to Know: Theory? But then it might be too good compared to know: Prac.

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    Default Re: Skills Simplification (3.P, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    In Pathfinder Linguistics contains both Decipher script and Speak language, and gets a little use here and there.

    Maybe add it to Know: Theory? But then it might be too good compared to know: Prac.
    the problem is having a wide spectrum of knowledge checks condensed down into two checks like you have is you end up with one definite choice over other skills. its why i split up the numerous knowledge skills into 5 groups that relate to the uses of the skills.

    Linguistics also contains Forgery in pathfinder, which is a skill that contains 3 unrelated skills that happen to all rely on language. Literacy is outright ignored in PF at that, as a skill that really should be inherent. You can speak a language and not be able to read it, or you can read a language without being able to properly speak it.
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    Default Re: Skills Simplification (3.P, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    the problem is having a wide spectrum of knowledge checks condensed down into two checks like you have is you end up with one definite choice over other skills.
    Very true, with all the skills even. Thats why I wanted each skill I listed to have no more than three within it, to save a few being far superior to others.

    linguistics is a hard one though. Should it be moved or removed? Maybe put on its own but i'm not sure.

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    Default Re: Skills Simplification (3.P, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Very true, with all the skills even. Thats why I wanted each skill I listed to have no more than three within it, to save a few being far superior to others.

    linguistics is a hard one though. Should it be moved or removed? Maybe put on its own but i'm not sure.
    the worst offenders I made were deception, acrobatics, and spellwork, the worst you did was know theory, which combined nearly all of the powerful knowledge checks.

    I don't really like linguistics because it means an omniglot is also able to spot forged documents with a cursory examination, as well as carve exsquisite plates with which to forge money. basically, put the skills where they make sense, as speak and read a language, lie to people, and to know when your business is being con'd

    asto your divisions of the knowledge skill, knowledge practical has no function of over 5 points, as the only checks it is useful for can be made with a large enough keg of cheap ale, or identifying oozes and aberrations
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