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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    1: Everything a Factotum has is limited, a Rogue, on the other hand, can do nearly everything they need to be able to do without limit, especially with later material that allows them to take the urban equivalent of HiPS (not wilderness rogue, which sucks), and to bypass critical immunity.
    That is false. A factotum's abilities give it extra functionality. Name me one thing, besides sneak attack, that rogues do better than a factotum using the same skills. Go ahead. I'll wait.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    2: your personal argument for why Rogue is not T3 with factotum is simply that Factotum is the only class which actually is between T2+3, that isnt an argument. They also cant steal Penetrating strike either, so they can never redeem sneak attack's most significant problem.
    There was a whole paragraph on why the rogue is where it's at in JaronK's first post. That wasn't even one of his arguments, let alone his only argument.
    Last edited by Temotei; 2012-12-21 at 06:44 PM.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    That is false. A factotum's abilities give it extra functionality. Name me one thing, besides sneak attack, that rogues do better than a factotum using the same skills. Go ahead. I'll wait.
    A factotum can not take 10 on an given skillcheck of their choice without blatantly ignoring the wording of the Rogue's Special abilities class feature. A factotum also can not get bonus feats other then a very small selection found as bonus class features, and even though they can in the end lift the rogue's 10d6 sneak attack, they cant lift Penetrating Attack with it to be competent against precision immune opponents because of the capstone wording.

    All their spells, and those Skill Boosts? 1/day.

    Rogues can take as a substitution for Imp Uncanny Dodge, Polymorph, 2 levels before the Factotum.
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  4. - Top - End - #484

    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    A factotum can not take 10 on an given skillcheck of their choice without blatantly ignoring the wording of the Rogue's Special abilities class feature. A factotum also can not get bonus feats other then a very small selection found as bonus class features, and even though they can in the end lift the rogue's 10d6 sneak attack, they cant lift Penetrating Attack with it to be competent against precision immune opponents because of the capstone wording.

    All their spells, and those Skill Boosts? 1/day.

    Rogues can take as a substitution for Imp Uncanny Dodge, Polymorph, 2 levels before the Factotum.
    The bolded part is important... Either Rogues get infinite Spellcasting, or Full Casters should be Tier 6 because of limited use Class Abilities. According to that statement and that statement alone, a Commoner is better than a Wizard.

    Now for the rest, okay Rogues can take 10 while threatened, in the grand scheme of things, what does that matter when the Factotum rolls a 2 and adds his Factotum level (10) to the result? Let's say the Ability modifier is +5 for both, Factotum has rolled 30 vs the Rogue's 28. So the Rogue has finally caught up with the gap the Factotum created and it's still not good enough, a Factotum9 vs Rogue9, both roll a 2 and vwala! Factotum 28, Rogue 19. Level 20 only spreads the gap wide enough for a Xixecal to pass through, Factotum rolls a 2 and ends up with a paltry 51, while the Rogue takes 10 and gets a massive 39.
    Why does the Factotum always roll a 2? Well I'm under the impressions that if I said 1 you'd call me out on that being an auto fail, so I went or the lowest number that wasn't 1, while the Rogue is allowed to take 10 starting level 10 because they're both being threatened. Unless use of IF is not allowed while threatened or distracted, the Factotum is always better than the Rogue when using Skills.

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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Threadnaught View Post
    The bolded part is important... Either Rogues get infinite Spellcasting, or Full Casters should be Tier 6 because of limited use Class Abilities. According to that statement and that statement alone, a Commoner is better than a Wizard.

    Now for the rest, okay Rogues can take 10 while threatened, in the grand scheme of things, what does that matter when the Factotum rolls a 2 and adds his Factotum level (10) to the result? Let's say the Ability modifier is +5 for both, Factotum has rolled 30 vs the Rogue's 28. So the Rogue has finally caught up with the gap the Factotum created and it's still not good enough, a Factotum9 vs Rogue9, both roll a 2 and vwala! Factotum 28, Rogue 19. Level 20 only spreads the gap wide enough for a Xixecal to pass through, Factotum rolls a 2 and ends up with a paltry 51, while the Rogue takes 10 and gets a massive 39.
    Why does the Factotum always roll a 2? Well I'm under the impressions that if I said 1 you'd call me out on that being an auto fail, so I went or the lowest number that wasn't 1, while the Rogue is allowed to take 10 starting level 10 because they're both being threatened. Unless use of IF is not allowed while threatened or distracted, the Factotum is always better than the Rogue when using Skills.
    1's are not an auto fail on skill checks, and 20's are not auto successes.
    Last edited by General Patton; 2012-12-21 at 08:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Threadnaught View Post
    *Snip*
    You assume the Teiring DM is more polite then only refraining from making the entire dungeon an Anti/Dead magic zone.

    Traps should always have 2 trap boxes, the Sporting one, which is immersed in the convienent Crucible inside the trap, and the employee one, for the end of the kobold shift

    and, to compare, at lvl 20, when a Factotum can cast Polymorph once per day, the Rogue can also do that, and the Wizard can do it 4+ Intmod/4 times per day
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    You assume the Teiring DM is more polite then only refraining from making the entire dungeon an Anti/Dead magic zone.
    Really? (Also, it seems to me that most DMs are going to be far more polite than that. The tier system is, I think, not built primarily on the assumption of a truly brutal killer DM.)

    and, to compare, at lvl 20, when a Factotum can cast Polymorph once per day, the Rogue can also do that, and the Wizard can do it 4+ Intmod/4 times per day
    OK, enlighten me: how does the Rogue cast polymorph from class features? (UMD does not count, since WBL is not a class feature and Factotum also has UMD as a class skill.)
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Factotums can prepare multiple spells/day. Rogues can only cast through UMD. Factotums can do that top.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    submitting

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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    OK, enlighten me: how does the Rogue cast polymorph from class features? (UMD does not count, since WBL is not a class feature and Factotum also has UMD as a class skill.)
    Lunar Rogue 8th lvl Subsitution, Dragon 340, p55. Replaces Imp Uncanny Dodge, Grants choice of either Polymorph 1/day or Greater Invisibility 1/day
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-12-21 at 11:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Lunar Rogue 8th lvl Subsitution, Dragon 340, p55. Replaces Imp Uncanny Dodge, Grants choice of either Polymorph 1/day or Greater Invisibility 1/day
    Well played. Are there similar ACFs to grant SLAs for other levels 1-7?
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Lunar Rogue 8th lvl Subsitution, Dragon 340, p55. Replaces Imp Uncanny Dodge, Grants choice of either Polymorph 1/day or Greater Invisibility 1/day
    But that's using a specific component from Dragon Magazine material, that's like saying the Commoner can kill anything because of the Chicken Infested flaw. While it is true, the simple fact that it's not something most GMs will allow. Not only is Dragon Magazine often rejected at most tables I've played at, tiers explicitly assume little optimization besides the basic knowledge of the class. A rogue with that substitution level is no longer a basic rogue played by a normal guy; he's something different. Which means that the basic rogue is still outclassed by the basic factotum.

    Also, Lunar Rogue gives access to one out of two specific spells, and lets you use it once per day. So while that does allow him some versatility (really, it's a steal compared with Imp. Uncanny Dodge) it still doesn't let him compete with any of the other tricks that the Factotum can do.

    I admit that it answers the question of how a rogue would cast Polymorph, it doesn't really matter in any argument, because it can't be fairly compared to the basic factotum because it's adding something not in the core class.
    Last edited by 3WhiteFox3; 2012-12-22 at 01:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    Well played. Are there similar ACFs to grant SLAs for other levels 1-7?
    Is there anything other than limited wish that even is nearly as relevant?

    and as far as i know, that is the only case of rogue that i know of getting an SLA, even if it is one of the most powerful SLAs in the game.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Is there anything other than limited wish that even is nearly as relevant?

    and as far as i know, that is the only case of rogue that i know of getting an SLA, even if it is one of the most powerful SLAs in the game.
    It's an ingenious trick, it's reasonably effective, but it's basically the same thing as Iaijutsu Focus: a niche stunt that only some tables will allow and that only makes a fairly small contribution to the overall class tier. Yes, I went there. :P
    Last edited by TuggyNE; 2012-12-22 at 05:11 AM.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Lunar Rogue 8th lvl Subsitution, Dragon 340, p55. Replaces Imp Uncanny Dodge, Grants choice of either Polymorph 1/day or Greater Invisibility 1/day
    As a DM, I'll allow this. Just because of one of the things you said about the Factotum, which the Rogue does better.

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    All their spells, and those Skill Boosts? 1/day.
    All their Spells you said, which indicates that the Factotum has the ability to cast multiple Spells per day. But apparantly Polymorph and Rogues are so powerful, just having Polymorph is better than Polymorph and other Spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    You assume the Teiring DM is more polite then only refraining from making the entire dungeon an Anti/Dead magic zone.

    Traps should always have 2 trap boxes, the Sporting one, which is immersed in the convienent Crucible inside the trap, and the employee one, for the end of the kobold shift

    and, to compare, at lvl 20, when a Factotum can cast Polymorph once per day, the Rogue can also do that, and the Wizard can do it 4+ Intmod/4 times per day
    I'm having trouble understanding your second and especially your third points here, so I'll refer to them two first. The first point is the most important anyhow.

    3: I mentioned level 20 in my comparisant of Skill checks, of course a Wizard can do it multiple times, but they're still limited uses aren't they? BTW we're comparing Factotum vs Rogue, not Wizard, if you want to involve the Wizard, it's Wizard vs Commoner.

    2: So that's what then? From what I see, it looks like you're saying all traps should come in fake trap/real trap combos. So what? Does the Employee trap set itself off whenever the Sporting trap is disarmed, instantly killing anyone without Evasion?

    1: How about a new style of tiering then? Pay attention, instead of the test being a single dungeon, which just so happens to be a magical deadzone, the entire world is a magical deadzone and chickens attack Spellcasters.
    Wizard vs Commoner, Commoner has Chicken Infested and wins. Commoner is Tier 1, or Wizard is Tier 6, I dunno.

    I assume the tiering DM does not just take away a character's abilities. So of course the dungeon isn't a complete magical deadzone, of course some deadzone is to be expected. Just as when the Rogue goes through the test, there are traps they love to disarm, Undead they love to fail at Sneak Attacking, a Dragon with Tremorsense, a bunch of other Adventurers they can steal from and backstab and at the end hiding in a magical deadzone is a Commoner with Chicken Infested, come at me with Polyorph bro, my chickens will eat you.

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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Threadnaught View Post
    3: I mentioned level 20 in my comparisant of Skill checks, of course a Wizard can do it multiple times, but they're still limited uses aren't they? BTW we're comparing Factotum vs Rogue, not Wizard, if you want to involve the Wizard, it's Wizard vs Commoner.

    2: So that's what then? From what I see, it looks like you're saying all traps should come in fake trap/real trap combos. So what? Does the Employee trap set itself off whenever the Sporting trap is disarmed, instantly killing anyone without Evasion?

    1: How about a new style of tiering then? Pay attention, instead of the test being a single dungeon, which just so happens to be a magical deadzone, the entire world is a magical deadzone and chickens attack Spellcasters.
    Wizard vs Commoner, Commoner has Chicken Infested and wins. Commoner is Tier 1, or Wizard is Tier 6, I dunno.

    I assume the tiering DM does not just take away a character's abilities. So of course the dungeon isn't a complete magical deadzone, of course some deadzone is to be expected. Just as when the Rogue goes through the test, there are traps they love to disarm, Undead they love to fail at Sneak Attacking, a Dragon with Tremorsense, a bunch of other Adventurers they can steal from and backstab and at the end hiding in a magical deadzone is a Commoner with Chicken Infested, come at me with Polyorph bro, my chickens will eat you.
    Deadmagic is still beaten by the Calling school, so basically the wizard is unaffected. Its only when you start breaking out the Barb/FB half minotaur Minotaurs with Spiked Chain focus and have a maze of Deadmagic, inside a Faraday cage of deadmagic, that you equalize the wizard with others.

    No, the kobold Labor Union of Adventuring Fodder has standards, Traps are to built with a safety disable and a standard disable for rogues, that standard disable it to be immersed in lava, in the threatened area of the trap.

    The DM is assumed to know every trick for shutting down a class, and will use them willingly. For factotum that simply means repetition. A factotum cant do the same thing twice in a day.

    asto your challenge: Polymorph into a Vivacious Dragon of appropriate size. Abuse Flight and Incorporal, have the Penetrating Strike ACF and deal half sneak attack no matter what. Kill them through walls to have no risk of being countered.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Deadmagic is still beaten by the Calling school, so basically the wizard is unaffected. Its only when you start breaking out the Barb/FB half minotaur Minotaurs with Spiked Chain focus and have a maze of Deadmagic, inside a Faraday cage of deadmagic, that you equalize the wizard with others.

    No, the kobold Labor Union of Adventuring Fodder has standards, Traps are to built with a safety disable and a standard disable for rogues, that standard disable it to be immersed in lava, in the threatened area of the trap.

    The DM is assumed to know every trick for shutting down a class, and will use them willingly. For factotum that simply means repetition. A factotum cant do the same thing twice in a day.

    asto your challenge: Polymorph into a Vivacious Dragon of appropriate size. Abuse Flight and Incorporal, have the Penetrating Strike ACF and deal half sneak attack no matter what. Kill them through walls to have no risk of being countered.
    Incorporeal creatures temporarily cease existing inside of antimagic or dead magic.

    Also, your comment on full and flat antimagic equalizing wizards to everyone else is extreme and erroneous. It equalizes wizards tot he worse of the worse (the commoner), as has been stated.

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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    Also, your comment on full and flat antimagic equalizing wizards to everyone else is extreme and erroneous. It equalizes wizards tot he worse of the worse (the commoner), as has been stated.
    Commoners have no good saves, Wizards have good will saves.

    Anti-Magic Fields are extremely nerfed in 3.5 though, as they dont even block Line of Effect. the T1 classes can cast in them anyway, if you know what you are doing.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Commoners have no good saves, Wizards have good will saves.

    Anti-Magic Fields are extremely nerfed in 3.5 though, as they dont even block Line of Effect. the T1 classes can cast in them anyway, if you know what you are doing.
    If by "know what you are doing" means using a 9th level spell (Invoke Magic) as surcharge on every other spellcast or taking a setting specific feat that most people ban (forgot the name of the feat) then yes, AMF is negated. Very briefly. But it remains a very potent effect.

    And a good will save has no value in an AMF/DMZ, since, far as I can recall off-hand, there is absolutely nothing that requires will saves that isn't also negated by the AMF/DMZ.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    The DM is assumed to know every trick for shutting down a class, and will use them willingly. For factotum that simply means repetition. A factotum cant do the same thing twice in a day.
    I present the Factotum with a DMZ and a mindless enemy immune to Sneak Attack. The area has no cover and the ground is covered in Fine objects that cause a great deal of noise when stood on, making sneaking impossible. Also Tremorsense.

    I present to your Rogue, an Undead Dragon. To your Polymorph Rogue, I present an Undead Dragon in a DMZ.

    I present to your Wizard, the world explodes. While in a DMZ.
    Or a DMZ while surrounded by an army of Chicken Infested Commoners with those Caster eating chickens.

    I present to your army of every single Class ever... Rocks fall everyone dies.

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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    toapat, I really don't know where you're coming from with this idea that factotums can only be good once per day. They have an ability that lets them get their level as a skill bonus once/day/skill, yes. But, apart from the ability to always take 10 (which doesn't come into play until halfway through the game, mind), they're just as good as a rogue at any skill they chose to specialize in.

    The rogue's 1/day polymorph is strictly inferior to the factotum's casting, since he can prepare polymorph and any other spells he wants without a spellbook.

    In other news, why are we arguing about how to totally neutralize a class? It's pretty moot, since such extreme circumstances are never, ever going to come up in a game with playing-- and if they do for more than a scene, walk away, because that's a DM on a power trip from the abyss.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Also, one thing about the factotum's impromptu spellcasting. They don't have one spell of each level per day. They have a limited number of spell slots and prepare all of their spells with that pool, regardless of level, much like how martial initiators ready their maneuvers. The limitation that the factotum has, in this system, is that he can only prepare one copy of his highest level spell avaiable. So as soon as he can cast 5th level spells, he can fill all of his daily alotment with polymorph if he wants to.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    So let's take a turn away from the argument and Factotums, Rogues, Ninjas, Swordsages and... wait, we weren't even talking about that. That does bring me around closer to something I want to talk about though: not ToB. Or, more specifically, Fighters.

    Even more specifically, not-Fighters that are still Fighters. More correctly, I'm talking about Fighter Fixes. I've already Tiered two so far, one of which is sitting neatly in High Tier 3 (by Ernir, the Fighter Incarnate), the other being the only Tier 1 Fix so far (Ziegander's Fightificer).

    So I thought I might as well go all-out on a specific subject again and tackle Fighters as a whole. Fighters clearly are a beloved subject around the forums, partly because they are one of the four staple classes (not just in DnD, but in any media that defines abilities through a class system, such as tons of other RPGs), partly because of the image of a heroic warrior having immortal appeal to people and partly because they are so goshdarned weak in DnD itself, thus making it a prime target for homebrew fixes and the cause of "Fighter Fridays" threads (after Monk Mondays, ToB Tuesdays, Wizard Wednesdays and Third-Party Thursdays). Heck, we've even had a Fighter Manifesto to explain the big issues, the whys and the need to figure out some hows.

    ToB?
    Let us begin with one of the things many Fighter Fixers do: as illustrated by Fax Celestis' example, many people simply give the Fighter a maneuver progression like the ToB classes. This stems from the fact that ToB makes combat a lot nicer for melee characters, due to providing many more options, though critics of the system crack down on it for being "too much like spellcasting" (luckily they've largely stopped using the "it's too anime" argument, because it's both a bull**** argument and flavour is muteable). Many even regard the Warblade as "the official Fighter Fix", and while I certainly agree that the Warblade is a class that is better made than the Fighter and have often seen it in my campaigns, it is such a large departure from the Fighter that I certainly can't really call it a Fix. It's more like the replacement of rotor engine fighter planes by jet-powered ones. Same goal, widely different execution, which incidentally results in one overshadowing the other with ease at any level. Certainly, at level 1 the ToB classes are even the strongest around and this remains that way for levels 2-4 as it slowly begins to even out, doing so at level 6 (5 for some casters).

    On the same hand, but a different finger, there are also apparently people who use ToB, but refuse to acknowledge it apparently, as shown by this Fighter Fix. Not only did he use ToB material without outright saying so (even though to anyone who's read through ToB would recognize it anyway), he copied the official material over, which for most stuff is a big no-no here, and to top it off the class features are prettymuch only feats. That's it. That's bad design, folks, even if you use good material.

    Tons of feats?
    Some Fighter Fixes use ToB material, but to a lesser degree, such as Seerow's (and Eyeless Blonde's, Otto the Bugbear's, OW4ngel's, Lord Pendragon's, etc). This one only utilizes the stance mechanic from ToB, and invents some of its own that are Fighter-specific. The amount learned, however, is perhaps a tiny bit more limited than that of ToB classes. Aside from that, the major change this Fighter Fix shows is one that is a pretty rookie mistake amongst Fighter Fixes: that of simply granting more feats. There are several new feats which are very nifty, but things are made a lot more complicated by the Styles mechanic, essentially granting 32(!) feats total, three times as many feats as a normal Fighter over the course of its career. Three times. The worst part is that you can't use them all at the same time and cannot be used to qualify for one another, unless they're in the same "style path". While interesting, this is way too complicated when used with feats and would've been much better as an actual class ability with several style branches to get into. Overall, it does raise the Fighter's Tier to 4, but I wouldn't recommend its use due to its complexity. This Fighter Fix does have one thing really going for it though, and that's the Warrior's Focus ability and the special abilities it grants. Some are quite nice and the concept is fitting for a seasoned veteran of battle.

    Then up comes Deepbluediver's Fix, which offers not quite as many feats as the above class, but still one every level. The other class features extra are just improvements on weapon-wielding and armor-wearing, with a minor battlecry ability that matters little in the overall scheme of things, or even just combat alone.

    Styles!
    We continue on to the next one, made by Solaris. This Fighter Fix has something similar in flavour to the Styles mechanic of the previous Fix, but with a huge difference in execution, as it doesn't rely on feats. The mechanics are simple and easy to use, but have a one-track mind (pun intended). This isn't bad, as the only thing the Fighter trades out for it is the first level feat, while gaining some little extra stuff, which is enough to life him that tiny bit to make it to Tier 4. The only big bad thing that jumps out at me is that the Dual-Wielding track grants nothing in the way of attack bonuses, which can result in a "flurry of misses" kind of deal.

    NeoSeraphi's Fix does something similar, but the class shuns other class features as a result, apparently, which is a shame, as it results in a class that is somewhat empty and doesn't get a raise in Tier.

    GunbladeKnight's Fix does the same, though the class features are different and there are no dead levels.

    Our next candidate, made by Grod_The_Giant, is boisterously called the Legend, so it's sort of debateable whether it's a Fighter Fix, but since this one was listed in Kane0's Commonly Corrected Classes Compendium, I figure Grod himself at least views it as one (the thread's title may also be a hint). It has a very strong chassis and, like the previous class, uses a kind of twist on the fighting styles idea. Sadly, this ability is only halfway finished, but the basics clearly show that this class can be built many different ways to suit different kinds of characters. The big thing about the class though, are the Tactics and the Deeds. Tactics are modifications of the Unstoppable Strike ability, just waiting for an Immovable Object to aim at. The Tactics don't scale well, but are very good at the level they're gained at. Deeds, however, are an even bigger thing. The Legend gets more of them, and while they may not make him better at fighting, they increase his versatility a lot, making the class combine both power and versatility at good amounts to make it sit square in Tier 3, or even High Tier 3.

    Grod also made another Fighter Fix, but looking through it, I can definitely say I prefer the Legend. The Legend is also more recent, so Grod probably learned from this attempt. In essence, it grants the Fighter tons more attacks and makes him count as several sizes larger for combat maneuvers, as well as somehow featuring Intelligence as an important ability score for some things, but in weird ways. By the end, it gets ridiculously over the top in amount of attacks, while counting as Colossal, but not much else, making it a great class for dishing out damage (DR also doesn't affect their attacks after a certain level) and trippy crowd control, but not really anything else. This would fall into that "Powerful/Broken Tier 4" Tier I mentioned earlier.

    Now for something a little different. In the beginning I linked the so-called Fighter Manifesto. This guy, Lemmy, took it to heart and made a Fighter Fix, attempting to stick to all the things mentioned in the Fighter Manifesto, and get rid of that. While he did a pretty good job at manhandling the Fighter, he only made the Fighter into the best darn Fighting Fighter that ever Fighted1. The numbers basically go up is all, the bonus feats are still the same. The Fighter certainly improves from needing less different kinds of weapons to bypass DR, is very good at wearing armor and wielding a sword, but... that's it, isn't it? Well that's when we get to Fighting Prowess. Fighting Prowess is similar to the Legend's Tactics and Deeds, taken together. The Fighter gets 9 of them and there are a lot of options. Frankly, that's one thing I personally don't like, actually. I do like options, but when you consider Fighting Prowess, all those bonus feats and then the rest of the class features on top, it's just so much. This one definitely gets into Borderline Tier 3-4, and it has stuff I like, but... just but. I guess I'm just picky in my tastes. Objectively, it's still pretty good, but he might as well just have gotten rid of the bonus feats.

    At this point, since I've gone into a class with a lot of stuff to read already anyway, I should probably go into the Fighter Fix offered by Realms_of_Chaos, but considering the time and my state of fatigue, I'll save that for later.

    Since I mentioned Kane0's quadruple-C-titled thread earlier, it would be a shame not to include any of his work, no? That's where the Legionnaire comes in. Good at group fighting, but sadly this is the only thing they do well at all, with the rest of the class abilities being a bit of a grab bag and not enough sturdy filling. Group fighting is also less worthwhile with other PCs unless you really built the characters for it and planned it from the beginning, making it much more of an NPC class than a PC one.


    Obviously there are many more Fighter Fixes out there, but those will have to wait for another time. You can await some big fixers and a pair of new ones to get a look over and see how they hold up amongst the crowd.


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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Grod also made another Fighter Fix, but looking through it, I can definitely say I prefer the Legend. The Legend is also more recent, so Grod probably learned from this attempt. In essence, it grants the Fighter tons more attacks and makes him count as several sizes larger for combat maneuvers, as well as somehow featuring Intelligence as an important ability score for some things, but in weird ways. By the end, it gets ridiculously over the top in amount of attacks, while counting as Colossal, but not much else, making it a great class for dishing out damage (DR also doesn't affect their attacks after a certain level) and trippy crowd control, but not really anything else. This would fall into that "Powerful/Broken Tier 4" Tier I mentioned earlier.
    Yeah, I'm not a fan of that one-- too much an attempt to make a good fighter while staying within the "crappy mundane" fighter limits. The "X of Battle" abilities need to be about ignoring size differences, not just counting as being bigger, My Blade is my Brother probably could be ditched, and Lord/Tyrant of Blades toned down. You didn't mention the feat retraining stuff, though, which I still kind of like, but makes the class really complicated to play. (Capstone: retrain [Int Mod] fighter bonus feats as a free action 1/round).

    I have a newer fix I like better. (I linked to the things of mine that I considered "good" in an earlier post, but it seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle)
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    The Talent dice at level 10 seems like it should be 5d6, or am I wrong in that assumption? Talent dice recovery also has two different things stated: at one point you say the Fighter gets them at the start of every encounter, at another that they recover at a rate of one die every (10 - key ability modifier). A new encounter is effectively after 5 minutes of rest and then going at it again, so that is rather contradictory there. I do like the concept, though at higher levels its likely open to some light abuse. At the very least it makes them very strong at the things they can use Talent dice for. The Battle Style and Rapid Inspiration abilities seem slightly better on the Tactician side. The Leader Perfect Tactics seem rather weak for the level you get them at. The rest is all perfectly fine. I'd call it Borderline Tier 3-4.


    Styles! Redux; and Being Other Fighters
    Let's pedal back for a moment. So far, solutions people have used to make their Fighter Fixes have been to throw in more feats, make them use Tome of Battle material or utlize some form of fighting style in a variety of different (but often very, very similar) ways. Our next Fighter Fix is by jiriku, and it also utilizes the concept of a Fighter with a fighting style of choice. However, he handles this differently from the previous ones, as the choice is pretty basic (though this is the same with prior Fighter Fixes), but you can build on it with the bonus feats, thus tying the bonus feats into the other abilities of the Fighter much, much more. As an added bonus, the Style feats are much stronger than normal feats, on par with actual class abilities, and many of them scale. Not only makes this the Fighter more powerful, it also grants him more options, quite possibly enough to make him Tier 3. What's more, is that this Fighter Fix has several ACFs that effectively make this Fix capable of replacing most other melee-oriented official classes as well, and even includes a Mage Slayer style ACF! Overall, pretty nifty.

    Something else that is also distinguishing about this Fighter Fix is that it shows signs of being a leader, due to having access to auras. These are similar to the Marshal's (well, rather, being shamelessly cribbed from it), making the Fighter gain some commanding presence over time. This isn't much, and in a party that plans on covering all the roles certainly won't help more than one other party member, maybe, but it's a little something and expands the Fighter's horizons.

    Milov3 does something similar to jiriku, covering an even greater number of base classes with possible fighting styles for the Fighter as alternatives to those classes, though they're somewhat simpler and bonus feats aren't tied to them as with the previous example Fix. Rushed Action is one of its strongest abilities, but then again it comes online at level 17, and Evershifting Style as well. For that matter, there are quite a lot of Fighter Fixes that use a kind of "style" type deal that gain the ability to freely switch to another at high level, aren't there? What logic does this flow out of, anyway? Studying judo for years won't somehow make me good at archery. This is, of course, not a gripe I have specific to Milov3's Fix, but all Fixes that have this. It might be nice to sample the other things a class has to offer, but without any buildup to that, it makes no sense to throw in an ability like that. It's basically saying "frag it, I got no clue what else to give this dude", or giving a prepared caster the ability to become a spontaneous one, using everything in his spellbook (or equivalent) as spells known. That sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Now you know how my brain feels when I come across a Fighter with such an ability. Or any class for that matter. (PrCs I allow some leniency.)

    Then we have another can-cover-other-classes-too-somewhat Fighter Fix, as awkwardly presented by nonsi. To be honest, I thought it'd be bigger. Then when I read through it, it took me as long as the others due to the fact that most of the class abilities themselves don't say when you get them, so you have to check with the table again. Warcraft is essentially "take a class feature from a non-Fighter fighting class, or get another bonus feat". It's basically another kind of quick-and-dirty fix, the former which is lazy and unoriginal, the latter which is both those and just doesn't work. Combat Focus is one of the better things about this Fix, though fluffwise it seems like this is similar to rage, in a way, which this Fix can also get. Seems weird to see that in combo. Warrior Talent has a few nice ones, but it's nothing major. Overall, it's... it's kind of a Fighter Fix, I guess? I mean, while nonsi attempted to stick to the things mentioned in D&D Next list of "things a Fighter should be", that list is incredibly vague and more fluffy than crunchy, not being of real substance. He did provide a link to a Fighter Handbook that goes into ways to optimize a Fighter through their feats, but using that with this Fix won't really make this go anything beyond the standard Fighter by much. In the thread nonsi appears to claim Combat Focus should raise the Fix to Tier 3, but the things that really do that it gets very late in its level progression, while they would be overpowered if gained earlier.

    Finally (for now), there's a recent, quick-and-dirty Fix by ngilop (how the fight do you pronounce that?), which very clearly is supposed to make the Fighter more of a tank: the take of hits. Interpose is incredibly good, Shrug Off Punishment is incredibly weak, Unmoveable doesn't mention what bonus it gives, Thick Skinned is very nice that early on, and I will stop there because those were the major things at the early levels and the late levels don't give much unique or anything significant at that level (besides Heroic Action, oh my). Overall, the class still suffers from having a one-track mind and mostly still offering bigger numbers (especially in the amount of AoOs that the Fighter can't even use without Combat Reflexes and high Dex) and otherwise being the same as a normal Fighter and his feats. Granted, at least ngilop's intro was honest: it's quick, and it's dirty.

    Part 3 to come, where I will reel in Minmaxboards'/BG's Fixes and see how they compare.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Your examination of the Fighter Fixes out there inspired me to give my own a go.

    Its a basic fix meant to add versatility and options to the fighter without simply scaling the numbers. Its meant to bring the Fighter up to a solid Tier 4.

    Here it is Zman's Fighter Fix.

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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Sheriff: Please take the general discussion about the validity of the tier system to the D&D 3.5 subforum. There must be an active thread on the issue there, but if not, please start one. This thread is not the place for that discussion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    Styles! Redux; and Being Other Fighters
    Milov3 does something similar to jiriku, covering an even greater number of base classes with possible fighting styles for the Fighter as alternatives to those classes, though they're somewhat simpler and bonus feats aren't tied to them as with the previous example Fix. Rushed Action is one of its strongest abilities, but then again it comes online at level 17, and Evershifting Style as well. For that matter, there are quite a lot of Fighter Fixes that use a kind of "style" type deal that gain the ability to freely switch to another at high level, aren't there? What logic does this flow out of, anyway? Studying judo for years won't somehow make me good at archery. This is, of course, not a gripe I have specific to Milov3's Fix, but all Fixes that have this. It might be nice to sample the other things a class has to offer, but without any buildup to that, it makes no sense to throw in an ability like that. It's basically saying "frag it, I got no clue what else to give this dude", or giving a prepared caster the ability to become a spontaneous one, using everything in his spellbook (or equivalent) as spells known. That sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Now you know how my brain feels when I come across a Fighter with such an ability. Or any class for that matter. (PrCs I allow some leniency.)
    You don't get to swap to any of the Styles. You can only swamp between the styles you possess. Lets use the martial art example, at level two you might pick artful duelist style which means you focus yourself on precise timing, then in following levels you pick dervish so that you can move around the battle without provoking attacks of oppertunity.

    When you choice to swap between the two you aren't immediately mastering something you've never tried before you are changing your focus in combat from a deflecting attacks with your hands to focusing on your mobility, unless for some reason you randomly chose a style which you've never used like Deadly Sniper.

    Also, the ability to swap between the styles in battle isn't given as I didn't know what to give the fighter. Its so you can change your style in battle if you want to change battle tactics.
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    Default Re: Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    You don't get to swap to any of the Styles. You can only swamp between the styles you possess.
    Ahh. Forgive me, I missed the "knows" in there. Yes, that does make it better, considering there is plenty of lead-up to that. One suggestion though: perhaps you should put in the table how manieth the Fighting Tradition it is you gain at a certain level, so you can easily see how many you can have from that level onwards.

    But yes, it's one of the better ones and has some combat versatility thanks to Fighting Tradition. It still has very little outside of combat though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zman View Post
    Your examination of the Fighter Fixes out there inspired me to give my own a go.

    Its a basic fix meant to add versatility and options to the fighter without simply scaling the numbers. Its meant to bring the Fighter up to a solid Tier 4.

    Here it is Zman's Fighter Fix.
    Nice to know I inspired someone.

    For the purposes of this current Fighter Fix examination, I won't give an in-depth look into yours though, partially because I've gotten past the GitP portion of it and partially because I have a strict rule about not examining something until at least a week after posting, to make sure the poster has given it a second look-over themselves and likely has gotten some comments and critique already. I will investigate your Fix later.
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