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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default 3.5: Healing Surges

    I have been using this system for about a year in my campaigns. I figured I might as well throw this up here to see what y'all thought of it.

    In my campaigns, healing does not exist. There are no healing spells, potions, or abilities that heal. If a class has an ability that heals them, it is usually made to only affect themselves and I try to make sure that it doesn't give them an unfair advantage. It works similar to how it works in 4E (I think, never read that much into 4E)

    Each class gets a certain number of Healing Surges. The stereotypical Big Stupid Fighters get 8 (Barbarian, Fighter, etc), fighters that are generally not Big Stupid Fighters get 7 (Duskblades, Ranger, etc), 'specialist' fighters get 6 (Druids, Clerics, Monks, etc), and primary casters that generally the stereotypically don't go into battle get 4 (Wizard, Sorcerer, Psion). You then add half (rounded up) of the character's base constitution modifier to that number to get the total Healing Surges per day. Note that enhancement bonus does not count. Each time a Healing Surge is used, the character heals for 1/4 HP. Multi-classing is generally handled by deciding where a character falls into (IE, Sorcadin is between 5-7).

    A Healing Surge can be used in two ways. The first is as a Move Action and the second is as an Immediate Action. A Move Action Healing Surge (for ease, I will just call it Surge) uses N+1 Healing Surges (henceforth stated as Tokens) and an Immediate Action uses N+2 Tokens. N is calculated by the number of Surges taken in the last 5 minutes. After 5 minutes, the N score resets.

    For example, a Warblade with 60 HP and 16 base Constitution has 11 10 Tokens. After taking 30 points of damage in a single round, the Warblade decides to use a Move Action Surge to heal 15 HP. Since it is the first time it has been used in 5 minutes (the 5 minute rule generally just refers to a single combat), the Surge costs 1 token (N(0) + 1 = 1). On the enemies' turn, the Warblade uses an Immediate Action Surge to heal again for 15. This time, it costs 3 tokens (N(1) + 2 = 3). This trend continues until the Warblade goes 5 minutes without using a Surge.

    This system means that the players are more restricted by the N score more than they are by there number of Tokens. An N score of 3 or 4 pretty much makes it impossible to use another Surge. However, after the combat, the player likely will be able to heal up. It also means that each character is responsible for their own health rather than having someone play a class capable of healing. Included in that, it means that no one has to play a Cleric/Druid if they do not want to. Tokens reset after total rest.

    I have noticed a lot more tension in the fights with this system. I have seen my players contemplate this action many times: "Hmmm, I can't afford an Immediate Action Surge so if I need to heal, I need to do it on my turn. However, if I do that, than I can't full attack. What is better; playing it safe or risking it to kill him?"

    As a DM, it also makes the random trap that does 11 damage worthwhile. Rather than use up a charge from the wand of lesser vigor, it actually costs the players a valuable and limited resource.

    It might be just a "Well, it works in *my* campaign!" and just completely fails elsewhere. Any thoughts?

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    When does the token count reset? I'd assume it resets after 8 hours of sleep, but I figured I would ask to be certain.

    Do enemies get healing surges?

    This makes random traps less trivial... unless the party leaves and comes back tomorrow. That's not always feasible, and it is pretty lame to do for the first arrow trap of the day.

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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    Damn you, forums, for consuming my post!

    I'm now going to steal this idea, and do wonderful, eldritch-horror-inducing things with it.
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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    Wait, how do players who are knocked out heal themselves?

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    It looks just like the 4e healing surges, as you noted, except for the soft cooldown on surges. I'm not sure I see the need for the token terminology, just making using the healing in combat cost more healing surges accomplishes the exact same thing without introducing extra jargon.

    I am curious though: Why half constitution modifier? Especially since you're not including enhancement bonuses? This means for the vast majority of people the addition is going to be either 1 or 0. Also, your example Warblade seems to add his full constitution mod... so yeah I'm confused.


    Last thing: For multiclassing, you say you average the values. Might I suggest simply taking the highest value? Along the lines of how proficiencies are handled.
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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    Quote Originally Posted by TaiLiu View Post
    Wait, how do players who are knocked out heal themselves?
    Heal skill from an ally, I hope?
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    I just don't get healing surges....or most of 4E in general.


    But other then that....why have such a system anyway? If you just want your characters to be immortal, why not just do less damage? That is a quick and easy way to stop any chance of character death. For example, just make all damage a character takes 1/4 of ''normal''. So for example: The Ultra Lich Lord King blasts you with his ray of ultimate necromancy for....Six points of damage!

    It's simple enough...as characters will never loose many HP's they won't need to heal.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Post Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    If I were to implement this system, as it makes for good in combat healing and keeping everybody...alive, I wouldn't completely do away with magical healing.

    Rather, I'd (probably) make the following changes:

    No divine caster can spontaneously cast cure spells.
    All cure spells take a number of minutes to cast equal to twice their spell level.
    You cannot be healed more then twice in a day.
    Items that heal people, such as potions and wands, do not exist. Healing is purely the domain of the gods.

    This way at least very trivial wounds can be fixed up with a few minutes break, but at the expense of some more serious resources.
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    Yes, Healing Surges do reset after rest. Sure, it is possible to do the fight, rest, fight, rest trick like it is Neverwinter Nights but it is really no different from usual. If a DM allows it, a DM allowed it.

    Boss or tough fights get Healing Surges. It adds quite a bit of tankiness and can really make a boss fight feel like "boss."

    Players who are unconscious, at least in my campaign, are stable and go to 0 HP (and conscious) at the end of fight.

    I have allowed an "Aid Other" Standard Action to use a Surge on another player based on your N score. I don't allow this very often because I hate the "Ok, Dan is the healbot" aspect. Can also be used to wake up sleepy head.

    I do not use the "Token" and "Surge" statement in my game. However, I explained it to a different group via e-mail and they got confused. I keep it called "Healing Surges" and the Action is to take a "Healing Surge" in actual play though. It is just in text saying "Use 4 Healing Surges to take a Healing Surge" can be difficult to explain. Clunky to read was preferable to confusing.

    The characters are in no way immortal. A Warblade with 10 Surges (typographical error in OP) can heal 75% of his HP in a fight, but that costs between 6-10 Surges. That is a lot of HP but he is done for a fight. I have found that it lets me have big fights easier that normal healing. Again, just my experience.

    I have gone back and forward on 1/2 Con or Full Con. I found that characters that stacked Con (In my games, the most average constitution score is 16) get a far and away bonus. IE, a DFA with 22 constitution gets an extra 6. I decided on half but obviously more works. That's the advantage of homebrew: It's all liquid!

    I reward Healing Surges for character advancement, solid roleplay (IE, sticking in character and being able to justify why you would simply not do this despite metagame), or as just a reward. "You gain 2,000 gold" just does not get as much of a response as "you all gain a permanent Healing Surge."

    Once per day, I let a Healing Surge action counts as a Lesser Restoration. The super awesome l33t sauce fighter should not be destroyed because he ate some bad berries and is away from town.

    My campaigns have been tough. Really, really tough. I wanted a method to have each player care for their own safety and was unhappy when someone said "Well, I guess I will do the Healer this time." It has added a new level of play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Last thing: For multiclassing, you say you average the values. Might I suggest simply taking the highest value? Along the lines of how proficiencies are handled.
    Does not work. A Sorcadin would get more Healing Surges than a Duskblade despite the fact that they do the same job. A Wizard 1 / Binder 1 / Anima Mage X would have drastically more Surges than a Wizard despite only losing 1 Wizard level for free Metamagic. I generally just look to what role the character is going to preform and adjust from there.
    YES, I desperately need a fairer system for this.
    Last edited by Azernak0; 2012-06-08 at 08:22 AM.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamer Girl
    I just don't get healing surges....or most of 4E in general.


    But other then that....why have such a system anyway? If you just want your characters to be immortal, why not just do less damage? That is a quick and easy way to stop any chance of character death. For example, just make all damage a character takes 1/4 of ''normal''. So for example: The Ultra Lich Lord King blasts you with his ray of ultimate necromancy for....Six points of damage!

    It's simple enough...as characters will never loose many HP's they won't need to heal.

    The point of healing surges isn't to make characters immortal. In fact, if you read the OP, in exchange for introducing healing surges, he removed basically all magical healing from the game. So characters can't just buy a wand of lesser vigor and restore to full hp after every fight anymore.

    Healing Surges aren't about immortality, they represent the inner reserves a person has. The first and most important thing to realize is that Hit Points are not damage. A character who takes a 20 hit point damage hit does not in fact have a giant gaping gut wound, despite that being twice what is necessary to kill your average commoner. Hit Points represent luck, morale, stamina, and skill to different degrees, that allows a character to turn an otherwise solid hit into a miss.

    A character using a second wind to regain hit points using their healing surges isn't suddenly going from being torn to pieces to being magically all better. Just as the name implies, he's getting his second wind, re-energizing himself and now ready to come back for more. A character resting after battle is relaxing a bit so that when the next fight rolls around, he'll be in the right frame of mind, and be ready for it.

    When a character runs out of healing surges, that's their inner reserves being as drained as they are. That fight was all they can take without more than a few minutes of rest. They need to hole up somewhere and get a good nights rest before they're able to press on with the same level of readiness they normally have. They are too fatigued, mentally and physically, to go on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azernak0
    I do not use the "Token" and "Surge" statement in my game. However, I explained it to a different group via e-mail and they got confused. I keep it called "Healing Surges" and the Action is to take a "Healing Surge" in actual play though. It is just in text saying "Use 4 Healing Surges to take a Healing Surge" can be difficult to explain. Clunky to read was preferable to confusing.
    Fair enough. I'd recommend something like "You spend a number of healing surges equal to N+1 to gain hit points equal to your healing surge value."

    It gets the same point across and eliminates the awkward token verbiage.

    I have gone back and forward on 1/2 Con or Full Con. I found that characters that stacked Con (In my games, the most average constitution score is 16) get a far and away bonus. IE, a DFA with 22 constitution gets an extra 6. I decided on half but obviously more works. That's the advantage of homebrew: It's all liquid!
    Well without Enhancement bonuses, 22 is close to the highest stat anyone is going to get (I assume if you're banning enhancement bonuses, unusual high LA races, template stacking, inherent bonuses, and other similar methods of gaining really high stats are also out?), and doing so comes at a severe price to their offense for most of them. I see no problem with someone who has invested that much getting the full bonus of it. The more important thing is letting the guys with 12-16 (the more normal range of attributes) get the full benefit of their stat.

    I reward Healing Surges for character advancement, solid roleplay (IE, sticking in character and being able to justify why you would simply not do this despite metagame), or as just a reward. "You gain 2,000 gold" just does not get as much of a response as "you all gain a permanent Healing Surge."
    I actually really like this idea. I'm not sure how to justify it flavorwise, but players gaining more healing surges through play as treasure is definitely cool.

    Once per day, I let a Healing Surge action counts as a Lesser Restoration. The super awesome l33t sauce fighter should not be destroyed because he ate some bad berries and is away from town.
    Any particular reason for only once per day? Seems like if you're going to allow it, may as well allow it always so running into some enemy with attribute damage only lays the party up for a day or so instead of a week or so.

    My campaigns have been tough. Really, really tough. I wanted a method to have each player care for their own safety and was unhappy when someone said "Well, I guess I will do the Healer this time." It has added a new level of play.
    I agree wholeheartedly with this mindset. I say this as the guy who usually gets roped into playing the healer at low levels until we can start affording wands.


    Does not work. A Sorcadin would get more Healing Surges than a Duskblade despite the fact that they do the same job. A Wizard 1 / Binder 1 / Anima Mage X would have drastically more Surges than a Wizard despite only losing 1 Wizard level for free Metamagic. I generally just look to what role the character is going to preform and adjust from there.
    YES, I desperately need a fairer system for this.
    Well the Sorcadin also has heavier armor access than the Duskblade despite doing the same job. That's the nature of proficiencies.

    The only other remotely balanced possibility I can think of is the characters gaining healing surges as they level, so it can work like Save/BAB progression. So the weaker classes don't gain as many surges on level up. It makes the first class you take a level in important, but it already is for Skills, so that's not too big a deal (unless you have one class with great skills and max surges, in which case it's a potential problem).
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  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    I second Vilphich's ideas. Removing healing entirely sort of removes half of what being a cleric about. Not that cleric's don't need nerfed but...

    I definitely don't like the tokens. Why add in an abstract system, especially with no real flavor behind it existing, if you can't do other things with them like gaining minor bonuses or recovering from status effects?

    As far as your description of hit points, seerow, that seems to be the most commonly accepted explanation, but I rather like an anime representation of hit points (have you seen bleach with characters coughing up half their organs, or other shows where half their body is missing). Much more cinematic.

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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    The point of healing surges isn't to make characters immortal. In fact, if you read the OP, in exchange for introducing healing surges, he removed basically all magical healing from the game. So characters can't just buy a wand of lesser vigor and restore to full hp after every fight anymore.

    Healing Surges aren't about immortality, they represent the inner reserves a person has. The first and most important thing to realize is that Hit Points are not damage. A character who takes a 20 hit point damage hit does not in fact have a giant gaping gut wound, despite that being twice what is necessary to kill your average commoner. Hit Points represent luck, morale, stamina, and skill to different degrees, that allows a character to turn an otherwise solid hit into a miss.

    A character using a second wind to regain hit points using their healing surges isn't suddenly going from being torn to pieces to being magically all better. Just as the name implies, he's getting his second wind, re-energizing himself and now ready to come back for more. A character resting after battle is relaxing a bit so that when the next fight rolls around, he'll be in the right frame of mind, and be ready for it.

    When a character runs out of healing surges, that's their inner reserves being as drained as they are. That fight was all they can take without more than a few minutes of rest. They need to hole up somewhere and get a good nights rest before they're able to press on with the same level of readiness they normally have. They are too fatigued, mentally and physically, to go on.
    Everything you say is all about character immortality, not 'second chance, second winds'. The seconds stuff is just smoke and mirrors. Healing surges are about keeping a character alive...period. It's just a way for a character to take damage in the game and 'pretend' they are hurt and wounded...as if that meant something.

    Though it's not just healing surges, but the way most groups do healing in general. They like to do the endless circle of massive damage and then massive heals. But it just seems like a lot of work. Taking 322 damage and then healing 304 damage and then taking 244 damage and healing 266 damage.

    It would just be simpler to have each character have like 10 hit points, but only take one point of damage a hit....

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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    It would just be simpler to have each character have like 10 hit points, but only take one point of damage a hit....
    It would be much simpler. But that's not D&D, and simplicity is not always a good thing.


    I am on the fence about the healing surges idea. I can see how it could be good in a campaign, but am always more wary of homebrew than accepting until I've seen it work.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamer Girl View Post
    Everything you say is all about character immortality, not 'second chance, second winds'. The seconds stuff is just smoke and mirrors. Healing surges are about keeping a character alive...period. It's just a way for a character to take damage in the game and 'pretend' they are hurt and wounded...as if that meant something.

    Though it's not just healing surges, but the way most groups do healing in general. They like to do the endless circle of massive damage and then massive heals. But it just seems like a lot of work. Taking 322 damage and then healing 304 damage and then taking 244 damage and healing 266 damage.

    It would just be simpler to have each character have like 10 hit points, but only take one point of damage a hit....
    It sounds like your problem is hit points, not healing surges.
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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    Quote Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
    I second Vilphich's ideas. Removing healing entirely sort of removes half of what being a cleric about. Not that cleric's don't need nerfed but...
    Removing healing is actually a buff for the cleric. Think about it: they don't have to waste time keeping everybody else alive with their piddly little d8s of healing (which will generally only give one solid hit's worth of HP back at most), and they can focus on using Flamestrikes and buff spells to actually defeat the enemies.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamer Girl View Post
    Everything you say is all about character immortality, not 'second chance, second winds'. The seconds stuff is just smoke and mirrors. Healing surges are about keeping a character alive...period. It's just a way for a character to take damage in the game and 'pretend' they are hurt and wounded...as if that meant something.
    Hit points are how much damage you can take at once (in one fight) without dying. Healing surges are how long you can keep going, since you'll use them up as the day goes on, and it's more efficient to spread them out rather than use them all at once.

    Yes, it's about keeping a character alive. It's also about keeping a threat around at the beginning of a day, because just inflating HP removes all threat until the last encounter. If you add surges or healing spells or whatever else, the characters can keep on going even though they're constantly in threat of death/failure.

    As an incredibly simplified example, compare a 10 HP character to a character with 4 HP and six points of healing. Every encounter does 1d4 damage to them. Both have 10 hit points available to them, but the one with 4 HP is always at risk of dying in every encounter, but the 10 HP character doesn't have any chance of dying at all until the third encounter, even if both d4 rolls come up 4. You could even give the 4 HP character the ability to start at full hit points every fight, and they'd both last 4 encounters on average.

    So no, it's not about immortality. It's about drama, challenge, and threat of defeat.
    Last edited by Siosilvar; 2012-06-09 at 04:07 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamer Girl View Post
    Everything you say is all about character immortality, not 'second chance, second winds'. The seconds stuff is just smoke and mirrors. Healing surges are about keeping a character alive...period. It's just a way for a character to take damage in the game and 'pretend' they are hurt and wounded...as if that meant something.

    Though it's not just healing surges, but the way most groups do healing in general. They like to do the endless circle of massive damage and then massive heals. But it just seems like a lot of work. Taking 322 damage and then healing 304 damage and then taking 244 damage and healing 266 damage.

    It would just be simpler to have each character have like 10 hit points, but only take one point of damage a hit....
    May as well go with 'one hit = you die' then. We may also ask: what the point of having AC and BAB that rise so high? What's the point of all this level up to twenty and epic and beyond and bajillion of all various kind of points from EXP, GP, Spell levels, slots and whatever?


    Anyway, its not just about survival ('immortality' if you want to) but also about tactics. There's a trade off between spending actions and resource to heal or to attack/buff/control. It give option and additional depth to combat. With OP's system even more so since there's additional choices to make: -'Play safe=spend surge as move action but risk losing out momentum in combat' or 'play risky= spend surge as Immd. act. but risk HP gets too low and die before you can heal'
    -'play short term= spend surge often even if cost a lot but risk running out of it too fast' or 'play long term=spend surge sparingly but risk HP getting too low often"

    If actual immortality are the desired result then OP would give cost-free-thinking-free regeneration instead of Healing surges with cost that require, or rather, encourage a bit thinking to use effectively.

    OK, that said. Nice job, Azernak0. The system does look fun. My only gripe: under this system I would not be able to play a healer/doctor-type character! (yes, some people actually don't mind, even fond of, being a healbot)

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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    OK, that said. Nice job, Azernak0. The system does look fun. My only gripe: under this system I would not be able to play a healer/doctor-type character! (yes, some people actually don't mind, even fond of, being a healbot)
    I don't think such a thing is impossible. Clearly not within the intention of the OP, but I could easily see the system adapted to allow for a healer class, even a mundane doctor if that's really your thing.

    Give daily limited use abilities like "here have an extra healing surge", and encounter limited use abilities like "Reduce the number of healing surges necessary to recover hit points". Throw in some bonus healing from surges used during downtime, and the ability to let characters trigger surges with your actions instead of their own, and you have a useful/interesting healer.
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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    Quote Originally Posted by Azernak0 View Post
    YES, I desperately need a fairer system for this.
    Here's an idea (though it might make things a bit complicated): You get a number of healing charges equal to the highest-value class you have, but the "extras" (you choose which ones those are) only heal proportionally to the levels of the appropriate classes.

    So for instance a Fighter 5/Druid 1/Wizard 3 with +2 CON modifier has (assuming it alternates between average-rounded-down and average-rounded-up) 42 hit points from his fighter levels, 6 hit points from his druid level, and 20 hit points from his wizard levels. Therefore, he gets 8+1=9 healing tokens, but only 4+1=5 are full heals (healing a full 17 hit points), 2 are medium heals (healing (42+6)/4=12 hit points), and 2 are minor heals (healing only 42/4=10 hit points). If he spends different types of tokens on a single heal, it uses the weakest value.

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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    The first and most important thing to realize is that Hit Points are not damage. A character who takes a 20 hit point damage hit does not in fact have a giant gaping gut wound, despite that being twice what is necessary to kill your average commoner. Hit Points represent luck, morale, stamina, and skill to different degrees, that allows a character to turn an otherwise solid hit into a miss.
    Exactly. 100% this. Thus why a Fighter has more HP than a Wizard bookworm despite both being mortals

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    A character using a second wind to regain hit points using their healing surges isn't suddenly going from being torn to pieces to being magically all better. Just as the name implies, he's getting his second wind, re-energizing himself and now ready to come back for more. A character resting after battle is relaxing a bit so that when the next fight rolls around, he'll be in the right frame of mind, and be ready for it.
    This again. Yes.

    I remember seeing a boxing match when I was a kid. Like 7 rounds in, one guy just looked dead. The commentators were saying "this is it, the trainers will call it" during the 30 second break. The guy gets up and it is clear he can barely stand. The other guy isn't looking great but he looks like a stiff wind will knock him over. Fight starts, he gets a blow to the stomach and I think he got REALLY pissed off. He lands a powerful body blow and a quick head jab to the other guy, who drops. Fights over and the victor isn't even able to stand without his coach's assistance.

    That's what the system is to me.

    The reason for only a single Lesser Restoration per day is because I do not throw that stuff at the party very often (well, at least if I do it is the last fight of the day). Wands, scrolls, and the like still exists as spells. It was mostly for the odd stuff; failure to notice the needle trap, rolling a 1 against a Fleshraker poison, etc. It was not meant to carry you through completely. If I ever ran a game where there was flat out no Cleric or Druid, I would probably increase the number of times they could do it. Probably something like "1/2 natural constitution modifier times per day" or full natural constitution but still needing medicine or magic to cure the full poison but it would be a more RP thing. "Grin and bear it" only works so far when it comes to tetanus.

    I have thought about the "I like playing pure support" problem. As it is, the only support involves making people better at killing or making the enemies worse at killing. I have thought about adding the Cure Line back into the game as a Temporary HP thing that goes away REALLY fast. Like maybe losing 1/3 of it's total HP a round. The problem is, it can get out of hand, is basically impossible with "Heal", and temp HP is so damn godly as it is.

    I have let people use the Aid Another to heal but never that often and never out of combat. Half because I didn't want to Sorcerer who was never hit to be a battery for Healing and because it does not make sense:

    Fighter: "I am exhausted. That fight wore me the hell out..."
    Rogue: "I am not tired of all. I will help you rest."
    DM: "No, no, no. This is NOT Grand Theft Auto."

    @Yitzi:
    Too complicated for my tastes. Also, I can see it being really unfair; you will have a situation where you have to use all "full" healing surges and have to use 1 "small" because of N score. In this case because of 1 bad apple, the bunch is thrown out.

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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    Well, if you want to do pure support...

    The Cure Line allows the target creature to use a Healing Surge without taking an action (extremely nice, when you get down to it), treating it like they were using it as a Move Action; higher level Cures add to the damage the target creature heals, and all that fun stuff.

    Also, I was thinking of how much HP gets healed, and I thought of this quick solution:

    A Healing Surge heals 1.5*your HD hit points when used.
    For every d4 hit die you have, that amount is reduced by 1
    For every d6 hit die you have, that amount is reduced by 1/2
    For every d10 hit die you have, that amount is increased by 1/2
    For every d12 hit die you have, that amount is increased by 1

    So a Barbarian 20 heals 50 HP with a healing surge, and a Wizard 20 heals 10 HP; Each step up the Cure X Wounds line adds the Cleric's Wisdom Modifier to the amount healed (So a Cure Light Wounds spell on a 20th level Barbarian, cast by a Cleric with 20 Wis, would heal 55 HP; a Cure Critical Wounds, on the other hand, would heal them a good 70 HP, and would probably give some sort of fun benefit, like automatically including the effects of a Healing Lorecall spell.)

    The Heal spell could just, I don't know, make the Healing Surge 3 times as efficient? So the Barbarian in the above example would heal 150 HP?
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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    The forum did it, I swear!
    Last edited by Amechra; 2012-06-10 at 01:56 PM.
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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    To borrow mechanics from 4e, 5e, and then retrofit them together with this idea, how about this:

    A character can Surge a number of times per day equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier. When a character Surges, it spends a number of Hit Dice, up to its total HD, and heals the corresponding value.

    For example, a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 3/Eldritch Knight 5 with a Constitution score of 18 has 10 Hit Dice (2d10, 3d4, and 5d6) and is able to Surge five times per day. Whenever he surges, he can spend any of his Hit Dice, to heal the corresponding amount. In one Surge, let's say that he spends 3d4 and 1d10 of his total Hit Dice, and heals 16 hit points. He has 1d10 and 5d6 Hit Dice and four Surges remaining for the day.

    It's not perfect, but it does handle multiclassing very well.

    A character with higher Constitution doesn't get "more" healing, but is able to space it out much better than a character with a lower Constitution, and thus reduce the danger hit point damage poses. Still doesn't seem quite right, but something could probably be tweaked to grant higher Con characters a bit more oomph from their Surges than normal.

    Maybe when a character Surges, they heal X Hit Dice + Con modifier worth of hit point damage. So a 10th level character with 1 Surge/day can heal 10 HD worth of hit point damage just once per day, but a 10th level character with 5 Surges/day (Con 18) heals up to 10 HD + 20 hit points per day.
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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    To borrow mechanics from 4e, 5e, and then retrofit them together with this idea, how about this:

    A character can Surge a number of times per day equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier. When a character Surges, it spends a number of Hit Dice, up to its total HD, and heals the corresponding value.
    Is it just me, or did you take the already terrible 5e hit dice system, and somehow make it -even worse-? I mean in 5e they at least get to add their con mod to each hit die, and even there it STILL sucks because of how random and how little the healing is.
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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Is it just me, or did you take the already terrible 5e hit dice system, and somehow make it -even worse-? I mean in 5e they at least get to add their con mod to each hit die, and even there it STILL sucks because of how random and how little the healing is.
    Y'know, like I said it wasn't perfect, but do point out how much it sucks without offering anything constructive either for the OP or about my idea.
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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Y'know, like I said it wasn't perfect, but do point out how much it sucks without offering anything constructive either for the OP or about my idea.

    I gave plenty of constructive criticism/feedback to the OP in earlier posts. I really like the premise of this topic, and like what's going on here.


    I just wanted to make sure it was clear how terrible your idea was before someone decided to try to run with it before thinking it through. I honestly wouldn't have thought it was worth doing... except I would have thought the same about the 5e hit dice mechanic, and yet you, an experienced homebrewer, thought it was good enough that you should nerf it some more and present it as a good idea. So of course I'm going to take the time to say "That's a really bad idea", because if you can make a mistake like that, what's to say what others who see it might take away from it?
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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    I just wanted to make sure it was clear how terrible your idea was before someone decided to try to run with it before thinking it through. I honestly wouldn't have thought it was worth doing... except I would have thought the same about the 5e hit dice mechanic, and yet you, an experienced homebrewer, thought it was good enough that you should nerf it some more and present it as a good idea. So of course I'm going to take the time to say "That's a really bad idea", because if you can make a mistake like that, what's to say what others who see it might take away from it?
    How about the fact that it's pretty clever? It's not an unsalvageable idea, and it's definitely not enough healing to replace the spells as it stands, but with a bit more work it could be.

    I think it'd be fine if the 1 + Con mod was kept, but each surge heals your full hit dice (no Con modifier added, which sucks for high-Con characters, but they get more surges anyway). I might also add another surge for every 20 sides of hit dice (or maybe just 2 points of BAB) you have: for example, a fighter would get one more every other level.
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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    Quote Originally Posted by Siosilvar View Post
    How about the fact that it's pretty clever? It's not an unsalvageable idea, and it's definitely not enough healing to replace the spells as it stands, but with a bit more work it could be.

    I think it'd be fine if the 1 + Con mod was kept, but each surge heals your full hit dice (no Con modifier added, which sucks for high-Con characters, but they get more surges anyway). I might also add another surge for every 20 sides of hit dice (or maybe just 2 points of BAB) you have: for example, a fighter would get one more every other level.
    But now you're talking about something totally different from the hit dice mechanic (since you're not spending hit dice, you're rolling all of them each time), so isn't relevant to me pointing out "taking hit dice, removing con mod per hit die, and limiting how you can split up spending hit dice, is just taking a bad mechanic and making it worse"


    And honestly even with your change, I'm hard pressed to think of any way in which it is actually better than the OP's system, given it seems like doing the same thing only with random hp gain when spending a surge, and fewer surges per day.
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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    And honestly even with your change, I'm hard pressed to think of any way in which it is actually better than the OP's system, given it seems like doing the same thing only with random hp gain when spending a surge, and fewer surges per day.
    It's not supposed to be. That took me five minutes to think of, tops.
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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    Thanks for all of the advice and encouragement. I really appreciate it. Clearly, it is still a work in progress.

    Things to consider:
    Full base Constitution in place of 1/2 rounded up. It only equates to an extra surge for most people though but an extra 3 for those that pump it.

    Look into a system for multiclassing. I think I might just stick with "what role is your character going to do" with Big Stupid Fighter (Warblade, Crusader, Fighter, Barbarian) being 8, Fighter types that get spells (Rangers, Paladins, Duskblades, Psychic Warriors) being 7, Specialists (Monks, Swordsages, Druids, Clerics) being 6, and full on squishies getting 4. I have just been asking players won't kind of role their build is likely to be and giving them that number of surges at the start. However, this requires honest players and careful thinking. Fighter 1 / Wizard 9 is not meant to be a Duskblade type character. I have thought about just saying X HP dice gets Y (IE, d10 or d12 per level HP gets 8) and averaging it out but I do not think that a Cleric and Druid should get as much as a a Monk or Psychic Warrior. I also can't just have it work like Armor Proficiency because everyone and their brother would go BSF 1 / X 19 in order to get all those juicy Surges. This is not easy to fix from my perspective, sadly.

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    Default Re: 3.5: Healing Surges

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Well, if you want to do pure support...

    The Cure Line allows the target creature to use a Healing Surge without taking an action (extremely nice, when you get down to it), treating it like they were using it as a Move Action; higher level Cures add to the damage the target creature heals, and all that fun stuff.

    Also, I was thinking of how much HP gets healed, and I thought of this quick solution:

    A Healing Surge heals 1.5*your HD hit points when used.
    For every d4 hit die you have, that amount is reduced by 1
    For every d6 hit die you have, that amount is reduced by 1/2
    For every d10 hit die you have, that amount is increased by 1/2
    For every d12 hit die you have, that amount is increased by 1

    So a Barbarian 20 heals 50 HP with a healing surge, and a Wizard 20 heals 10 HP; Each step up the Cure X Wounds line adds the Cleric's Wisdom Modifier to the amount healed (So a Cure Light Wounds spell on a 20th level Barbarian, cast by a Cleric with 20 Wis, would heal 55 HP; a Cure Critical Wounds, on the other hand, would heal them a good 70 HP, and would probably give some sort of fun benefit, like automatically including the effects of a Healing Lorecall spell.)

    The Heal spell could just, I don't know, make the Healing Surge 3 times as efficient? So the Barbarian in the above example would heal 150 HP?
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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