Modern Army v. D&D

[Little Brother]

Invisible is not undetectable. By any means.

Scrying takes an hour to cast... pray no shells fall nearby. While working at any range,
if the subject moves, your scrying can't follow.

Uh, dude? Plenty of ways to get Earth Glide or some such to be protected. And Superior Invis is basically undetectable.

Also, the scrying not following? That's arguable. Frame of reference and all. It could be that, if you scried someone on a train, the sensor would be stationary on the train, and so could be moving at a bajillion KM/H on a bullet train. Otherwise, the sensors would fall off the world, given rotation and movement in orbit.

[candycorn]

Invisible is not undetectable. By any means.

Scrying takes an hour to cast... pray no shells fall nearby. While working at any range,
if the subject moves, your scrying can't follow.

Invisible is pretty well undetectable on a strategic scale. There are tactical ways to detect it, but no strategic level ways. Which means, if you're 40 miles from the nearest base, invisible in a corn field, you're simply not going to be seen.

Further, enemies would not know about invisible foes immediately, so thermal imaging and the like wouldn't likely be standard issue initially. It's safe to assume that initially, invisibility would be relatively secure.

As for shells? Cast from in a cave? That's not taking into account the fact that modern militaries don't drop ordinance indiscriminately. They identify targets, and hit them. So, unless a great battle or mass of D&D troops is in the vicinity of the scry caster, the likelihood of a shell dropping falls somewhere between "incredibly unlikely" and "microscopically small".

As for moving? That's why you scry locations that don't move. Bases and the like. Planes without landing strips crash, tanks without fuel are basically really durable paperweights. Attacking the terran's base of operations basically turns off most of the technology. And D&D has tools that are very effective for doing that.

Sorry, magic may be short range, but it's extremely tactically flexible, to the point that it can make you immune to most anything, including damage. From a position where damage can't damage you, you have relative impunity on your attacks.

And what of ghosts? A single powerful character, who died disturbingly enough to turn into a ghost, could pretty much walk through an entire military army, possessing, ability damaging, and telekinesising a path of destruction.

[Tyndmyr]

Okay, I was asked by a friend who would win in combat, D&DVerse or Real World. I had no idea, so I wanted to ask the Playground:

The rules were:
3.5 rules
No gods/Epic magic(Yes, clerics still have spells)
No REALLY STUPID rules abuse(IE, PunPun, Twice-Betrayer, etc).
The universe isn't Tippy, probably due to some careful balance between high-powered wizards, a treaty, or some such.
The D&D world isn't allowed to mind control leaders(Though grunts and officers on the line are valid)
No nukes/anti-osmium/Shadow-wraith-wightpocalypse/etc. Both sides would like both worlds intact for pillaging/ruling/etc.
The worlds are RELATIVELY united. People from another world attacking do that. Not necessarily happy, but not going to just backstab each other for teh lulz.
Prime Material plane only, beyond specifically summoning outsiders(Abyssal Army works, but opening a gate to the abyss and letting them swarm)
Terrans cannot use magic. It's genetic or something. Also, the transit through the portal destabilizes the gear enough only people from the other side can fire their guns, or the like(Or come up with some other technobabble excuse).
Modern army got the first strike and does have a base on the D&D side of the portal
Finally, and most importantly, D&D never existed here. No nerds with full information about their rules.

Given all these rules, who wins?

I'd take a wizard over guns. Frankly, Ironguard or windwall is kind of a giant "god no" to the mundane folks. Sure, the military people will faceroll over mundane fighters, but higher level casters will be increasingly likely to be a nightmare for them.

You'd need it to be a pretty low-magic setting for the mundanes to have a chance.

Hell, the mundanes aren't even equipped for life in D&D world. First time they run into a shadow or an allip, they will die horribly, and be unable to do anything about it. This need not be even an intentional act on the part of wizards or anything...D&D worlds are dangerous!

[Eldan]

Slightly OT

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I once planned it.

To make things funnier, let's do it with this or this "real" world (I did with both).
Then improve damage from guns (my solution was from 17-20 to 12-20 crit range; if crit, death with no save [which is, by the way, much more "realistic"]).

It is a pain (I can't tell where ) to set a common ground of rules, but it was very funny to craft.

At the end, Real World would have won

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...but Graecia capta coepit Romam

So, wait. Your guns have a 45% chance of killing anything they hit, even pistols against dinosaurs the size of buildings, and you call that realistic?

[Killer Angel]

So, wait. Your guns have a 45% chance of killing anything they hit, even pistols against dinosaurs the size of buildings, and you call that realistic?

Even against human targets, it would be a terrifying percentage...

[Bharg]

Shouldn't it be determined what ressources are available to the two factions?

If level 20 wizards and demons are fighting for the fictional D&D side why not D&D gods and their avatars?

Also this is terribly pointless without determining how stuff that actually exists (IR, US, radiation and god) interacts with magic.

[Gwendol]

I've never argued against things that can't be harmed winning the battle, or that high level magic TCOB, as usual. Just that it's not the cake-walk some would argue it to be. As can be shown, practically anything that can be hit is one-shotted by all but small-arms fire, at a range where they have little chance of retaliating and at a speed which give very little time for acting.

[Wookie-ranger]

so,
I have been following this tread a while. I respect all opinions that have been presented, even if i don't agree with some of them.
There are people that think that the Terrans would win, there are people that think that D&D would win.

It seams to me that the first group (Terran supporters) focus more on the actual combat, the immediate engagement, the action; what deals damage, how much, and how fast. You might also call this the tactical side.

While the second group (D&D supporters) focus more on the the big picture. Less of a direct engagement and more on the world around it, on the civilian population, communication, transportation, information, guerrilla tactics and deception. This is basically the Strategic side.


In D&D there are very few things that could withstand a direct engagement with a modern army, i don't doubt that. Even if you consider high DR, elemental immunities and all that nearly nobody would stand a chance (incorporeal not included)
However, the strong side of D&D is that a small group of sociopathic demi-god hobos can wreck more havoc then a thousand tanks, don't need to be resupplied with ammunition/food/etc (just sleep and you are back in the game), don't need to spend weeks/months/years in a hospital when they get injured, can instantly travel any distance, and when they die they most likely have some form of plan to get back up some how (contingencies/clones/etc)

I really don't mean to offend anyone. But the Terran Supporters are focusing on exactly what the D&D side would be bad at and completely ignore all their strong points.

[Telonius]

The more I'm thinking about this, the more I think it's likely to turn into a Teutoburger Wald scenario.

As long as the Terrans' objective is conquest and subjugation, they're going to need local goons to manage things. That leaves them wide open to anybody with Mind Blank, or Undetectable Alignment, or Glibness. Anybody with a high Bluff check is going to be able to put together a story of how their family was murdered by Count Von Evil, and of course he'll help out the liberating Terran armies. As soon as he's in the camp and trusted, the sabotage begins. Funneling out battle plans, surreptitiously casting Incite Riot in the barracks, getting some of the troops to "go native" by introducing them to locals of their preferred orientation (possibly with the help of some BoEF spells), feeding the commanders just enough true information to get them to extend their supply lines... yeah, it's just a matter of time before Varus loses his legions.

[Invader]

A large giant can hurl a rock causing 2d6+STR mod damage. We can approximate the initial velocity to be around 45 m/s. With the weight of the rock (45 lb) the energy is about 20.6 kJ, which equates to 17 hp damage on average.
The projectile fired by what is probably the most common cannon in the world, the Bofors 40mm, weighs 1 kg (or around 2 lb). Initial velocity is 1021 m/s. The damage from impact alone is equivalent to 425 hp damage, but then you need to account for the explosive, which carries about the same amount of energy. That's about 800 hp damage. From one round. This gun fires 4 rounds/second, which means 24 shells/round. Round 1: 19200 hp damage.

Modern day bofors guns comes with programmable munitions, meaning they will behave differently according to the target.

D&D world is too slow and too limited range to cope with this. Psycological warfare? Try having your celestial/infernal ally being blown to tiny bits ten times over the second they are detected a few times and see how the clerics handle the loss.

A Bofors is also an anti aircraft weapon not a anti personnel weapon. You're not going t be firing it like a sniper rifle at people.

[Arbane]

I don't see how the limited range, destructive power, and slow speed of everything in D&D world isn't a liability.

They ARE liabilities. But so are Earth's inability to predict the future, raise the dead, teleport, read minds, summon demons and angels, turn intangible, survive a sniper bullet to the skull with nothing worse than a headache, etc.

As can be shown, practically anything that can be hit is one-shotted by all but small-arms fire, at a range where they have little chance of retaliating and at a speed which give very little time for acting.

In the REAL world, where most people can't survive getting hit with a battle axe more than four or five times, people occasionally survive getting shot. I think you may be highballing the damage guns do. Firearms are not Magic Wands of Death, and there's a fair number of creatures in D&D that won't die just because you poked a few holes in them.

Does D&D have anything like a 'Reverse missiles' spell? if not, time to start researching one. Along with Arbane's Miniscule Lightning Tempest (very large AoE, causes random tiny electrical surges in all metal. Like electronic devices.)

[Tyndmyr]

A Bofors is also an anti aircraft weapon not a anti personnel weapon. You're not going t be firing it like a sniper rifle at people.

There's a great deal of crossover between AA, AP and anti-personnel weapons. Most aa cannons can be used to at least some degree on infantry, even if they do tend to be...expensive in terms of ammo used. Usually, rather effective, though.

That said, even if you do fire it like a sniper bullet, there's plenty of things in D&D that can shrug that off.

Consider the Contingent teleport. That's basically a free do-over for a caster, and it's not even that exotic of a precaution.

[mattie_p]

A couple of thoughts as I enter the fray now that I've finished catching up on the thread.

Invisibility, by spell or other means merely grants an increased difficulty to spot checks. The exact mechanic of it is irrelevent. It all refers back to the special ability invisibility. Spot check ranges from DC 20 to DC 40 to find that "something is there." +20 to the DC to pinpoint. With modern detection abilities, how much of a bonus to spot should the military get based on all of its high tech equipment? I'm pretty sure modern stuff gets you more than a +2 masterwork tool. UAVs, ground sensors, 360 degree camera coverage, all interlinked.... I suspect that invisibility is not a problem for the military.

All the 3.5 rules "stuff." Presuming that modern tech works in whatever land is invaded, we are assuming that all the abstractions that 3.5 work under still apply to the D&D side. Wouldn't they equally apply to the military? In other words, even though in real life there is no such thing as character levels, wouldn't we have to assume that in order for there to be any comparison, the military would have to "gain" levels in order to function in 3.5 land? I can imagine the lower ranks would be fairly low leveled, but a Seal team would be extremely high leveled, not to mention that WBL is irrelevent to the military. Wouldn't soldiers gain feats and skills as they crossed the portal? I know that their weapons get immediately nerfed due to "balance" issues present in the mechanics of the game. How does modern body armor work? Is it strictly AC, or is it more DR?

[Tyndmyr]

I've always assumed something akin to D20 M rules. It's D&D compatible, made by the same people, and includes things like tanks and attack helos.

That aside, they still wouldn't have a chance. Ethereal = win.

[Invader]

OK there's a few things in this debate that have been bugging me.

1. Guns aren't as effective in real life as they are in the movies. Realistically, less than 20% of gunshots wounds are fatal (even less when you're wearing body armor). And this is with modern medicine and surgery as a means to save someone's life. In the D&D world you just drink a potion and "poof" you're all better.

2. Its all well and good to talk about the destructiveness of a missile exploding and it automatically killing everyone in the radius. This is real world physics and you can't apply real physics to the modern army and dice values for D&D spells. A fireball is also going to automatically kill everyone in its radius if applied with the same rules or at the very least maim everyone beyond the point of them being able to function in a combat role.

I won't even get into the insurmountable problem of the logistics of moving troops, vehicles, food, ammo, supplies, etc in a world with no paved roads, airports, or modern shipping.

Add this to the fact that when a modern soldier is injured the only way he gets better is with time and rehabilitation. In the D&D world they'll be fighting a near endless supply of elementals, magical creatures, and all other manner of summoned creatures that when they die they can simply be resummoned again to go one fighting. This is on top of the armies of even low level clerics that spend all day instantly healing everything with a wound so it can go straight back to fighting.

[Arbane]

2. Its all well and good to talk about the destructiveness of a missile exploding and it automatically killing everyone in the radius. This is real world physics and you can't apply real physics to the modern army and dice values for D&D spells. A fireball is also going to automatically kill everyone in its radius if applied with the same rules or at the very least maim everyone beyond the point of them being able to function in a combat role.

Suddenly I have the image of the Terrans dropping a MOAB on a local city, only to have the Thieves' Guild walk out the wreckage unharmed (they ALL made their Reflex saves) and mad as hell.

[Telonius]

Suddenly I have the image of the Terrans dropping a MOAB on a local city, only to have the Thieves' Guild walk out the wreckage unharmed (they ALL made their Reflex saves) and mad as hell.

"All those kills ... all that loot ... they sundered it all? MONSTERS!"

[Aux-Ash]

Little brother:

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Range is centered on self, or maybe close range. Radius is 1mi/CL. Casting time is 10 minutes, but its actually 1 full round action, due to Uncanny Forethought. Level 9. Might have, like, a fifty XP cost.

The damage? Destroys all crop production within that range for half a year. Plus, the psychological impact of "The climate is mine."

As I mentioned before this is a WMD. This is one of the unbeatables. It might just be powerful enough to force a surrender on it's own if you got more than one person being able to cast it.
Even if not, this is one of the few spells that on it's own have enough scale to cause strategic damages.

Demiplanes, or indestructible moving fortresses mean immobile isn't that big of a deal.
When it is at-will as a free action, meaning they can literally cast it a billion times in one round. Weirds are basically omniscient.

Hmmm... allright. From what you tell me, tucked away there's not much the terrans can do about this.

Though I find the free action thing silly. I'm sure the rules work that way, but it sounds like a loophole. Just once per round is strong enough as is.

Which I banned because they kill everyone but high-level Psions, Wilders, and Wizards, who then, for revenge or something, destroy earth. Everyone loses. Plus, land for colonization? Land with MAGIC? I think that's worth not nuking.

Ah, sorry I was unclear. I meant that I had not even begun discussing nukes when I talked about blast radii outranging wizards. I did not mean that those were to be used.
And I agree, the wizards would respond with MAD. Just like any nuclear power would.

Well-worded questions? Plus, an arbitrary number of them from your simulacrum-Weird? There's a reason every wizard's day starts with a game or three of 20 questions.
Remember. Free action. At will. Omniscient elementals.

Well... you can ask things like: Will my men be attacked if they step through. Even if they'd win that fight, the answer would be: Yes. Which could promt a careful wizard to discard that tactic.

But yes. If you do get it unlimited times then I guess the point is moot.

Bestow curse=Penalty to checks, Cha, and Wis. Geas and a couple days gives you even larger penalties, as does Crushing Despair. Plus, you have +4 Cha from Eagle's splendor, and +a lot more from things like Moment of Prescience and Greater Heroics.

I love how the solution to every problem is "throw a spell at it". I really do .

Seriously though... you do realise that you just suggested a maximum 7 spells to set up an assassin. From what I hear, spells per day is the dnd force's primary limit. More on the implications of this in the next segment:

As a high-level wizard? Basically however many I want. Remember, you can kill a bajillion people with basically no risk, but the succubus can do it with ACTUALLY no risk, while you go off and do other things. You get spells back every day, you know.

One day's worth of spells would let you get about however many succubi you want. That's just from LPB. Especially if you have your own(Preferably accelerated) demiplane.

But remember that you have to rest for 8 hours. Even if they can't get to the wizard in this time (though the wizard must ensure noone saw him enter, the first time probably isn't dangerous... but if the terrans do notice they might actually deploy mines or gas) that's 8 hours they won't have to worry about that caster.

The popular choices for invurnability; Ironguard, Windwall and Invisibility, only lasts 2 minutes each.

Okay. It'll collapse houses. And old buildings. And cause a massive panic, which is what matters. Death by destruction of economy works.

If our economy couldn't handle the collapse of an old building we'd never get anything done.

Ur-Theurge with a persisted Undermaster can use it every round all day. I think he can live with that.

He's not exactly subtle though. So I guess he's counting on that we cannot/wouldn't cause a 200 m crater?

That's a bet I wouldn't accept.

Per use. 270M in a minute. And the terror of causing Earthquakes, even small tremors, at will? That's nasty.

Uhm... I'm sorry? Where do you get this from?

Invisibility/Ethereal/Xorn movement/otherwise being unseeable or untargetable while casting? I can live with this.

The invisible man cannot I'm afraid. 1 minute is long enough to zero in on the entire area. I cannot argue the Xorn movement. The Etheral one I concede.

Yeah. If, what, 8 demons/devils pop in, they can kill a dozen or two before dying. Ten minutes later, another demon pops up, kills a couple more. Then, ten minutes later, it happens again.

And the third time they pop up they're mowed down with massive machinegun fire or on mines. This sort of thing relies on unpreditability.
3 Randoms nights in a month. Sure. Different camps every time? Absolutely. The same one 3 times 10 minutes from one another? Why are you assuming the terrans are incompetent. They're on high alert for the rest of the night after the -first- time.

Or cast elemental swarm, summoning Earth Elementals underground. After they just swing from underground. Kill a bunch.

Depending on how well this protects the elementals (ie. how deep) this could work.

Close range, all corpses within range, Instantaneous, level 9(So minimum of 110 feat). Once again, the caster just hides below ground, harassed, EQs, gets a bunch of corpses ready, then animates them and retreats. Easy.

And I'm sure a decent number of the soldiers would vacate their bowels then run from zombies.

Ehh... I'm not sure. Good for expendable reinforcements I guess. Though I think there are better uses for a 9th spell slot. Masses of ground bound troops is probably the least effective weapon against the terrans.

Remember, we got weapons that can rip hundreds of bodies apart in seconds. And these days just about every squad got them.

WhatthePhysics:

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Imagine the consequences of a 5th-level Cleric systematically casting Contagion (Blinding Sickness) on our water supply. SRD says it's an extraordinary disease, with extraordinary effects being "nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics." Antibiotics, vaccines, chemical treatments, or even just boiling the water could be futile; once in the system, the contagion could rapidly spread. Hundreds of cases of weakness and blindness start pouring into the offices of the World Health Organization, and economies take a hit from the dropping demand for water that's potentially infected.

SRD also says it must target a living individual. By touch.
It's rather silent on how this individual would then taint water (which is the vector). So I fear any discussion on how it spreads would be pure conjecture. Yes, we could assume it works like real life. But then we'd have to discuss immunesystems, exactly what kind of disease it is, epidemiology and wether or not modern NBC protocols (military and civilian) would do any good.

SRD also says that it can be cured with the heal skill. It would seem a bit off if we couldn't pull that off.

Ultimately... I feel this one is a big: "I don't know". Too little data.

Ashtagon:

Reinforced masonry is still masonry, so would be affected by the spell as any other masonry

I would agree, except the spell description says otherwise. I don't know why it does and if it didn't I'd support your conclusion.

Candycorn:

Shatter can render tanks unable to operate.

Uhm... anything above 1 pound/lvl is unaffacted. A modern tank weighs a couple of magnitudes above 20 pounds.

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Whew... that took a while to write. Perhaps I should make one thing clear. I'm not actually sure the modern world could win. The only thing I see when I study these spells is that most of them shine on a scale that is difficult to apply to strategic levels. Could the dnd force win? Perhaps. But one thing I'm sure of: it won't be easy.

Might I also propose Mutually Assured Destruction as a rule? Right now nukes are being held off as per thread rules. Yet many suggest dnd-engineered apocalypses. How is that a fair comparison? If DnD force is allowed such tricks (even if they are "trivial" to clean up) why is nukes forbidden.
So I suggest that if one side threatens to destroy the other, the other responds in kind.
Thus no nukes. No orbital bombardment. No unstoppable hordes of undead. No complete and utter destruction of virtually all life on one side.
Only conventional or espionage warfare.
For the sake of fair comparisons.

[ngilop]

Im slightly cofnused on why the OP satst that these 'terrans' are unable to use nuclear weapons or any weapon of mass destruction.

but then goes on to suggest several dubya emm dees that the D&D-ers can use


actually im not confused at all I know the exact reason why.


but im just wondeing why no one else has picked up on this hypocrisy as of yet?

[Augmental]

Im slightly cofnused on why the OP satst that these 'terrans' are unable to use nuclear weapons or any weapon of mass destruction.

but then goes on to suggest several dubya emm dees that the D&D-ers can use


actually im not confused at all I know the exact reason why.


but im just wondeing why no one else has picked up on this hypocrisy as of yet?

...Dubya emm dees?

[tyckspoon]

Note: If the Earth side is restricted a single point of access to D&D-world, they're never going to get anywhere.. because while D&D magic mostly isn't terribly good at the kind of large scale effects and range that modern warfare can do, the large-scale effects it *can* provide are staggeringly good at destroying a supply line. Drop a Fimbulwinter/a few Blizzards/Control Weather over the area Earth is trying to use as a beachhead/staging point and you effectively deny it completely; we can't operate in an area that is blocked off with so much snow that you need a tunnel-boring machine to make paths in it, or one that is constantly in near-hurricane conditions. Not to mention the absolute severance of supply that will happen if somebody manages to get close enough to the portal to drop a Prismatic Wall or Wall of Force across the gateway on one or both sides (and then hang around for another 2 rounds to render it Permanent.)

Invading back the other way would be difficult without using some of the cheesier WMD-style tactics, but defense of their own ground would be very easy for the D&D side.

[mattie_p]

Invading back the other way assumes that magic works on terra, which while not brought up in the initial post, I think digresses too far. I would suggest that if magic works here, someone would already have figured out how to do so, and used it for vast financial gain. So once they come here, the only magic is technology, and core means Physics, Chemistry, and Biology, among others. They lose. So let's stick with terran invaders, please.

[Wookie-ranger]

Might I also propose Mutually Assured Destruction as a rule? Right now nukes are being held off as per thread rules. Yet many suggest dnd-engineered apocalypses. How is that a fair comparison? If DnD force is allowed such tricks (even if they are "trivial" to clean up) why is nukes forbidden.
So I suggest that if one side threatens to destroy the other, the other responds in kind.
Thus no nukes. No orbital bombardment. No unstoppable hordes of undead. No complete and utter destruction of virtually all life on one side.
Only conventional or espionage warfare.
For the sake of fair comparisons.

But this is exactly what D&D is good at. massive destruction, at random far apart location, that are impossible to stop by the other side.
Again, this is what D&D IS. it is about destruction, about instant transportation, about high magic about supernatural monsters . If you take this away you might as well say that D&D looses all their magic and only commoners are allowed to throw chickens at them.

D&D attacks with the objective to destroy everything:
1: teleport behind enemy lines while invisible.
2: wrack havoc in the economy/agriculture with weather spells/ undead/ daemons/ you name it.
3: teleport out
4: rest, rinse repeat.
Eventually the Terrans will run out of food and or have a civil war / rebellion on their hands.


Terrans attack with the objective to destroy everything:
1: send in a multitude of bomber planes/ long range missiles all with daisy cutters/ nukes/ nerve gas/ etc.
2: D&D wizards knew about the attack about 3 weeks before.
3: most missiles find themselves in force-cages
4: planes get either taken down by a <insert spell of choice> or the crew gets mind controlled and send back
5: D&D wizards sleep 8 hours and are back in the game. while the Terrans need to rebuild nukes and planes costing billions and take years.

If it is an actual portal like in stargate this will not work. Then the Terrans are pretty much screwed as this would be nothing more then an extended dungeon craw for some mid to high level party to a plane where people cannot use magic.
To stop Terran from coming trough the the D&D side there are too many options to list; wall of force or anti-life shell come to mind.

[Arbane]

This whole topic is giving me Disgaea flashbacks.

Im slightly cofnused on why the OP satst that these 'terrans' are unable to use nuclear weapons or any weapon of mass destruction.

but then goes on to suggest several dubya emm dees that the D&D-ers can use

actually im not confused at all I know the exact reason why.

but im just wondeing why no one else has picked up on this hypocrisy as of yet?

There's different levels of mass destruction - both D&D forces and Terrans are sticking to the 'huge smouldering hole where a city used to be' level, not the 'render the other side's planet uninhabitable' level. (Which shows admirable restraint on the D&D side's part - all it would take is ONE Shadow sneaking through, and Earth is doomed.)

[Aux-Ash]

I think you misunderstood me Wookie-Ranger. I'm not saying the DnD side shouldn't be allowed to teleport in and destroy a base. I'm saying they shouldn't be allowed to teleport in and glass a small country. That we shouldn't assume one of the "kills and multiplies undead"-apocalypses or anything similar. No abyssal army that overwhelms everything.

And conversely. No tactical or strategical nukes. No smallpox deployments. No ebola. No botolinum toxin in watersupplies.

Basically... no apocalypse scenario's. On either side.

The line is of course hairfine. But I'd say that gradually sabotaging one's side to wage war is acceptable. Fimbulwinter, while horribly powerful, would have to be cast billions of times to wipe all available farmland on earth. This is acceptable level. It's comparable.

[Ashtagon]

My understanding is that the "no WMDs" rule means "nothing that isn't trivially easy for your team to clean up afterwards". So a lot of D&D apocalypse techniques can be used still, but nukes are definitely out.

[Aux-Ash]

My understanding is that the "no WMDs" rule means "nothing that isn't trivially easy for your team to clean up afterwards". So a lot of D&D apocalypse techniques can be used still, but nukes are definitely out.

Fun.... eh... horrific fact. A modern tactical nuke is "trivially easy to clean up". The halflife is in days. Not years.

[Ashtagon]

Fun.... eh... horrific fact. A modern tactical nuke is "trivially easy to clean up". The halflife is in days. Not years.

[cite needed]

Incidentally, it's not just the radioactivity here; nuclear waste is quite toxic even without radioactivity issues.

[Little Brother]

Little brother:

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As I mentioned before this is a WMD. This is one of the unbeatables. It might just be powerful enough to force a surrender on it's own if you got more than one person being able to cast it.
Even if not, this is one of the few spells that on it's own have enough scale to cause strategic damages.

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That's one of the reasons I love this spell so much.

Hmmm... allright. From what you tell me, tucked away there's not much the terrans can do about this.

Though I find the free action thing silly. I'm sure the rules work that way, but it sounds like a loophole. Just once per round is strong enough as is.

I agree. At-will most divinations is nasty This is, though, from that wonderfully balanced book, MMII.

I love how the solution to every problem is "throw a spell at it". I really do .

Hey, it works

Seriously though... you do realise that you just suggested a maximum 7 spells to set up an assassin. From what I hear, spells per day is the dnd force's primary limit. More on the implications of this in the next segment:

Sure. I can see a wizard's day be over with seven spells left. Remember, you do get more than assassination out of the succubus.

But remember that you have to rest for 8 hours. Even if they can't get to the wizard in this time (though the wizard must ensure noone saw him enter, the first time probably isn't dangerous... but if the terrans do notice they might actually deploy mines or gas) that's 8 hours they won't have to worry about that caster.

Explain.

The popular choices for invurnability; Ironguard, Windwall and Invisibility, only lasts 2 minutes each.

I'm just going to say that very few self-respecting high-level wizards won't take Persist, or any number of reducers.

If our economy couldn't handle the collapse of an old building we'd never get anything done.

Yes, but when it's done by an Earthquake, at the will of an enemy? That's something else. It's the FEAR that would destroy the economy, not a few buildings.

He's not exactly subtle though. So I guess he's counting on that we cannot/wouldn't cause a 200 m crater?

That's a bet I wouldn't accept.

Which is why he is an Astral Projection, Ethereal, has a Pact of Return set up for dying on that mission, or any number of cleric/wizard anti-dying protections.

Uhm... I'm sorry? Where do you get this from?

Wow, my math was horribly derp.

Regardless, Undermaster means EQ is an SLA. Just move over 160 feet and do it again. You can cover a wide range pretty fast.

And the third time they pop up they're mowed down with massive machinegun fire or on mines. This sort of thing relies on unpreditability.
3 Randoms nights in a month. Sure. Different camps every time? Absolutely. The same one 3 times 10 minutes from one another? Why are you assuming the terrans are incompetent. They're on high alert for the rest of the night after the -first- time.

Well, the Demon DOES get one round after popping up(The three waves are part of the spell. That's why I said 10 minutes. It's a demonic Elemental Swarm).

Depending on how well this protects the elementals (ie. how deep) this could work.

I was mostly thinking about attacking bases from below ground. I doubt these guys are gonna shell their own base.

Ehh... I'm not sure. Good for expendable reinforcements I guess. Though I think there are better uses for a 9th spell slot. Masses of ground bound troops is probably the least effective weapon against the terrans.

Remember, we got weapons that can rip hundreds of bodies apart in seconds. And these days just about every squad got them.

Yes, but I am just such a fan of it. Plus, the idea is, once they've calmed down, cast it so their zombies kill a few. It's a paranoia spell. Especially, make illusions in the next couple of days, until they figure out not to shoot the illusions. Then, do it again.

Might I also propose Mutually Assured Destruction as a rule? Right now nukes are being held off as per thread rules. Yet many suggest dnd-engineered apocalypses. How is that a fair comparison? If DnD force is allowed such tricks (even if they are "trivial" to clean up) why is nukes forbidden.
So I suggest that if one side threatens to destroy the other, the other responds in kind.
Thus no nukes. No orbital bombardment. No unstoppable hordes of undead. No complete and utter destruction of virtually all life on one side.
Only conventional or espionage warfare.
For the sake of fair comparisons.

Most of the large-scale things just don't have the destructive capabilities of a nuke. I mean, nuke destroys huge areas. Fimbulwinter? Shuts down a couple of farms. Apocalypse From the Sky? Okay, I'll give you that one.

But, sure, why not?

[Wookie-ranger]

I think you misunderstood me Wookie-Ranger. I'm not saying the DnD side shouldn't be allowed to teleport in and destroy a base. I'm saying they shouldn't be allowed to teleport in and glass a small country. That we shouldn't assume one of the "kills and multiplies undead"-apocalypses or anything similar. No abyssal army that overwhelms everything.

And conversely. No tactical or strategical nukes. No smallpox deployments. No ebola. No botolinum toxin in watersupplies.

Basically... no apocalypse scenario's. On either side.

The line is of course hairfine. But I'd say that gradually sabotaging one's side to wage war is acceptable. Fimbulwinter, while horribly powerful, would have to be cast billions of times to wipe all available farmland on earth. This is acceptable level. It's comparable.

I see what you mean. So basically no "here is a gate to the Abyss, see you in a week" or Locate City bomb.

Speaking about Fimbulwinter:
At level 20 the area is 20 mile radius. or a total of 1256.637 square miles.
The world has a total Arable Land (land used for growing crops) of 5,330,199.37 square miles.
it would take 4241.6 castings to cover it all.
Assuming the above mentioned level 20 wizard has INT30 he can cast it 10 times a day. so it would take him 425 days to cover it all.
But thats just ONE Wizard. What if he would get 3 of his friends to join in with the fun. Not the whole mages guild mind you, that would be over kill.
Assuming some are not as smart as he is, they can cast it at total of 35 times a day.
They could cover everything in 122 days. At this time most of the original casting are still in place.
A group of 4 Wizards just destroyed the food production of earth in less then 5 month. you are welcome.

Did i mention that they didn't use any Level 7 spells or below yet?



Edit for Spelling (no pun intended)