Modern Army v. D&D

[Slipperychicken]

Ironguard. Stoneskin. Displacement. Regeneration of any variety. Immunity to fire. The sheer number of available options the D&D side has far outweighs what firepower we could bring to bear.

Remember, most of those are either extremely short duration (seconds, minutes) and/or require mid-to-high-level casters, which means they both can't be feasibly used on the rank-and-file, and that those few so-affected can be shot to death once the duration wears off, shelled/exploded as normal without trouble, or masses of soldiers could eat the miss chance with the many, many bullets they're firing every second (depends on how you model rapid-fire weapons).

[Little Brother]

So, I'm seeing the general conclusion being that any full caster(Or, at least, group of full casters) above, say, level 13 means D&D wins hard. Otherwise, they'd have to play really hard guerrilla warfare and repel the Terrans, but not win, or at least have a hugely brutal campaign. E6, they probably would lose relatively quickly, but with some pockets of very dangerous resistance from the high-level(lv 6) casters.

I mean, charm, infinite minions, minions strong enough to throw tanks with a single blow(Monoliths are fun), large scale death, and the like means D&D just needs to protect their casters. Even non-casters at relatively low levels can do some damage, with things like Darkstalker Rogues and Swift Hunters, Bubs builds, and the like, but cannot win by themselves.

Does this seem right?

On a secondary note: Would it be at all possible, in an OPTIMIZED D&D world, for nothing but mundanes and partial casters to win? What if they were capable of using modern tech they looted? I mean, Water Orc Frenzied Berserkers could probably wreck a front line, and Rogues and Rangers with sniper rifles could do some damage. Wildshape Rangers would also be pretty nasty.

[Dervag]

A big question is how high of a level the Terran Army is considered. If we're going with the theory that no living human is higher than 6th-level-equivalent, a single Cloudkill...

is what gas masks are for. Other spells are, yes, more dangerous.

Also note that modern armies are far more spread out and make a point of being hard to see, compared to medieval armies or most giant rampaging monsters. Killing them by normal means, even with 20th level magic, takes time- you have to saturate entire square kilometers with enough concentrated deadliness to kill people hiding behind high cover bonuses and so on. It can be done, but it's not "wave hand game over" unless you start breaking out the cheese.

[Othesemo]

So, I'm seeing the general conclusion being that any full caster(Or, at least, group of full casters) above, say, level 13 means D&D wins hard. Otherwise, they'd have to play really hard guerrilla warfare and repel the Terrans, but not win, or at least have a hugely brutal campaign. E6, they probably would lose relatively quickly, but with some pockets of very dangerous resistance from the high-level(lv 6) casters.

I mean, charm, infinite minions, minions strong enough to throw tanks with a single blow(Monoliths are fun), large scale death, and the like means D&D just needs to protect their casters. Even non-casters at relatively low levels can do some damage, with things like Darkstalker Rogues and Swift Hunters, Bubs builds, and the like, but cannot win by themselves.

Does this seem right?

On a secondary note: Would it be at all possible, in an OPTIMIZED D&D world, for nothing but mundanes and partial casters to win? What if they were capable of using modern tech they looted? I mean, Water Orc Frenzied Berserkers could probably wreck a front line, and Rogues and Rangers with sniper rifles could do some damage. Wildshape Rangers would also be pretty nasty.

Depends on how much WBL is available, and also if monsters are fighting too. With enough gold, you could feasibly turn one ancient wyrm gold dragon into a flying juggernaut of unstoppable destruction, literally immune to everything and capable of destroying several buildings per round. The tarrasque with Overland Flight could wreck most anything, and even the tarrasque without could still cause a great deal of destruction. What's more, it would never die.

[Hecuba]

but the problem is you cant kill a shadow at all unless their is a non raw interaction so even if we assuming the shadow cant reproduce the cleric controlling him can kill anyone he wants at his leisure.

Holy water works, is explicitly non-magical, and exists real world (unless you posit that D&D holy water |= RL holy water). Still not ideal, but it can get the job done for even incoporeal undead.

On a secondary note: Would it be at all possible, in an OPTIMIZED D&D world, for nothing but mundanes and partial casters to win? What if they were capable of using modern tech they looted? I mean, Water Orc Frenzied Berserkers could probably wreck a front line, and Rogues and Rangers with sniper rifles could do some damage. Wildshape Rangers would also be pretty nasty.

That will depend on some elements not yet specified. To start:

• Removing full casters takes the D&D nuclear options off the table. If the same is not true for the actual articles, the Earthlings have MAD-unchecked nukes (which changes things).
• How "partial" are partial casters. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Nar Demonbinder lacking 9's doesn't qualify. But there are a fair number of ways to get 5s, and a few ways to get 6s. Are we looking here, or do we cap at 4?

[Snowbluff]

is what gas masks are for. Other spells are, yes, more dangerous.

Not breathing Cloudkill doesn't keep it from killing you.

[Amoren]

DR likely won't save anything from an army, even huge amounts of it. Remember that every weapon strike deals at least one damage, regardless of DR. So each bullet that hits these super monsters still does, at least, one damage. Now recall how many bullets can be pumped out by a modern assault rifle or machine gun, or heavens forbid, a vehicle mounted machine gun. By sheer volume of bullets a modern day army could bring down a dragon, but the DnD world wouldn't be able to take down a tank by volume of arrows.

Vehicles are also typically made of very thick steel, sometimes with a Faraday cage slapped on too (or at least tanks and likely ACPs are). This should be more than enough than to account for a few inches of lead and make them resistant to any spell that's stopped by such.

Wizards also wouldn't know WHERE to scry, even if they could gain access to the otherside of the portal. They have no knowledge of real earth and thus wouldn't be able to perceive those areas. They could try and rip the knowledge out of a soldier's head, but even a 20th level wizard would need to be within 1200 feet of the White House to do so, which puts him greatly at risk. And, if the modern firearms interact with DnD opponents with RL physics, one gun shot will kill the 20th level wizard (or multiple bursts from a few soldiers to rip through mystical buffs). If not, they'd be a large supply of soldiers pouring to take him on, and the leader would be alerted and taken to a secret bunker nearby which should have more than enough protection in armor and earth to not be penetrated by most magic, and would also not be known by the grunts he's dealing with.

The advantage does go to DnD with the huge utility and game changes of magic, but in almost everything else the real world has a huge technology advantage. Any direct fights will be largely in their favor, so it comes down to if the wizards who care to involve themselves can turn the tides before the Earth's armies swiftly bring Kings and other rulers to the surrendering table.

And of course, there's always the possibility for the Real Life armies to hire/'persaude' people from the DnD world to tell them how to deal with magic/incorporeal creatures, just like the wizard can charm/mind control/read the minds of people to learn about Earth.

[Gavinfoxx]

DR likely won't save anything from an army, even huge amounts of it. Remember that every weapon strike deals at least one damage, regardless of DR.

Uh no, that's not the case?? Also, we have access to lots of weapons that would deal typed elemental damage and cause diseases and poisons and such...

[Amoren]

Uh no, that's not the case?? Also, we have access to lots of weapons that would deal typed elemental damage and cause diseases and poisons and such...

Huh, that's odd. Rereading damage reduction on d20srd.org says that damage can be negated completely by damage reduction. Yet, the last time I saw damage reduction referenced with this case before just now was for a feat in Draconomicon, which read, “You gain damage reduction 2/-. This stacks with any damage reduction you have from other sources. Damage reduction cannot reduce damage below 0.” That combined with how my last long running game table played it, seemed to indicate that you always deal at least one damage despite damage reduction.

Was it changed between 3.0 and 3.5 or something?

[Hecuba]

Was it changed between 3.0 and 3.5 or something?

DR was one of the big 3.0-3.5 changes.

[Tvtyrant]

I think this is a debate that is going to be dominated by either a strict adherence to D&D RAW or an adherence to real world physics. Realistically cloudkill shouldn't effect someone in a hazmat suit, since it never touches them, but in D&D it would effect them anyways.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think this is a debate that is going to be dominated by either a strict adherence to D&D RAW or an adherence to real world physics. Realistically cloudkill shouldn't effect someone in a hazmat suit, since it never touches them, but in D&D it would effect them anyways.

Yea, we need to decide which takes precedence.

[Amoren]

I think this is a debate that is going to be dominated by either a strict adherence to D&D RAW or an adherence to real world physics. Realistically cloudkill shouldn't effect someone in a hazmat suit, since it never touches them, but in D&D it would effect them anyways.

My best answer is that something from one world affects the other like an item in that world. That way, cloudkill operates under real life physics and doesn't affect people isolated from it, and also the huge hulking barbarian isn't killed by a pistol shot to the head.

[Slipperychicken]

My best answer is that something from one world affects the other like an item in that world. That way, cloudkill operates under real life physics and doesn't affect people isolated from it, and also the huge hulking barbarian isn't killed by a pistol shot to the head.

The headshot would definitely count as a critical hit. You can't tell me, with a straight face, that putting a bullet in someone's skull isn't going to do some serious damage. If the bullet is dealing hp-damage that is. If it's dealing "real world damage", it penetrates the skull, and probably damages the Barbarian's brain to the point where the creature falls over and dies.

On that thought, modern artillery will probably be repeatedly invoking the Massive Damage Fort-Save-or-Die, even on especially on strong creatures like Dragons.

If there is a distinction between damage dealt and damage received (I forgot. Too late at night), the save might be triggered even with damage types the creature is immune to, since the attack dealt so much damage, even though the creature didn't take all of it.

[Gavinfoxx]

I would say that for a multiple hundred hit point barbarian, the bullet bounces off of his skull.

Hell, it might bounce off of his eye.

Just saying. One of those things...

*whistles*

[Twilightwyrm]

Without nukes or similar devices, I would have to say D&D. Even if we take out monsters entirely, I'm just not convinced a Special Ops team or an airstrike (which might be crippled by a single magic missile spell) would be enough to counter the extreme power that magic gives. And when a druid can infiltrate the enemy camp as a mouse, and cast an earthquake on the headquarters, I'm not quite sure how a human army that doesn't have access to nuke level weaponry can compete. I mean, we have all manner of predator drones, I guess, but I'm not sure it would be enough.

[Little Brother]

That will depend on some elements not yet specified. To start:

• Removing full casters takes the D&D nuclear options off the table. If the same is not true for the actual articles, the Earthlings have MAD-unchecked nukes (which changes things).

Nukes are banned. Terra wants colonization, all nukes were destroyed in an international treaty, or what have you.

• How "partial" are partial casters. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Nar Demonbinder lacking 9's doesn't qualify. But there are a fair number of ways to get 5s, and a few ways to get 6s. Are we looking here, or do we cap at 4?

Bards are the biggest caster. No Sublime Chord. Bard and Mystic Ranger are the top casters, probably(But I will draw the line at SotAO).

I would say that for a multiple hundred hit point barbarian, the bullet bounces off of his skull.

Hell, it might bounce off of his eye.

Just saying. One of those things...

*whistles*

Yeah. Plus, Frenzied Berserker can survive a nuke at point-blank range. Nasty things, ain't they?

[Slipperychicken]

Yeah. Plus, Frenzied Berserker can survive a nuke at point-blank range. Nasty things, ain't they?

It's easy. He just has to hope the nuke didn't create any difficult terrain (literally cannot make Balance or Tumble checks while Frenzying), he makes the Massive Damage save (well, that's not so hard for him, but a 5% automatic death chance is always scary), and someone's around and able to to heal him up from -9999 before the Frenzy wears off He was probably sent flying across the continent from the sheer force if he's still in one piece at all, and personally, I'd invoke the Chunky Salsa rule.

Also, Deathless Frenzy requires a mid-level character who specially trained to be an FB. Those guys aren't exactly dime-a-dozen, and there's no good way to train them cheaply.

[Randomguy]

I tend to agree with slipperychicken. Unless something has high DR, a headshot with an assault rifle is a kill. But remember, most shots in real life are aimed to center mass ( the torso), which I think are eventual kills, not instant kills (unless they hit the heart), and which could be cured by magic.

Vehicles are also typically made of very thick steel, sometimes with a Faraday cage slapped on too (or at least tanks and likely ACPs are). This should be more than enough than to account for a few inches of lead and make them resistant to any spell that's stopped by such.

Disintigrate!

Wizards also wouldn't know WHERE to scry, even if they could gain access to the otherside of the portal. They have no knowledge of real earth and thus wouldn't be able to perceive those areas. They could try and rip the knowledge out of a soldier's head, but even a 20th level wizard would need to be within 1200 feet of the White House to do so, which puts him greatly at risk. And, if the modern firearms interact with DnD opponents with RL physics, one gun shot will kill the 20th level wizard (or multiple bursts from a few soldiers to rip through mystical buffs). If not, they'd be a large supply of soldiers pouring to take him on, and the leader would be alerted and taken to a secret bunker nearby which should have more than enough protection in armor and earth to not be penetrated by most magic, and would also not be known by the grunts he's dealing with.

One gunshot will severely annoy a powerful wizard by forcing him to recast astral projection. It might kill a poorly prepared one, though.

In terms of scrying: it shouldn't be too hard to find the first outpost that the moderns have on the D&D side of the portal. (Summoning an astral stalker to find out where they came from would work well). After the outpost is eliminated (scry and die), then it would take a lot of preparation time before they could stage an attack on earth, but it would still be possible by impersonating, scouting, and divinations that don't require familiarity, such as chain of eyes. .

[Amoren]

But if we look at a barbarian reacting to a bullet with real world physics, his skull is penetrated, and even if he is a frenzied berserker in a frenzy, his brain can no longer operate and he's left there paralyzed, drooling, and not being able to breathe until he finally stops raging and dies. Or, for succinctly higher calibers, his head is missing completely.

Magic missile also wouldn't cripple an air strike, since magic missile only has a range of 300ft (before metamagic) at caster level 20. The plane likely wouldn't even fly that close to the ground before dropping its bombs/missiles. Hell, helicopters probably don't fly that close to the ground.

As for Earthquakes, I imagine most army bases are built to the standard that they would be affected little, if at all, by a typical earthquake. And certainly could stand up to one better than a stone mason building (which survives an Earthquake spell). It might do in a base with several castings, though.

[Doorhandle]

Send in anything incorporeal (no magic = immune to EVERYTHING) being that deals negative levels. Anything it kills, turns into that creature. Drop off a few in each population center, call it a day. Just find whatever you can summon at as early a level as possible.

Electricity would still hit it, right? Also, technically, so would fire, even the non-magical sort, for half-damage. Bring on the flamethrowers!

And also, about D.R; Remember this is the modern world, so we would have tanks and jets. I'm pretty sure if those things can hurt each other, they could hurt a dragon pretty handily, and both of them could outrace one. Granted, the tanks would have difficulty hitting some of the fliers but that is what stinger missiles are for. Not to mention that our beyond-visual range capability is perhaps centuries ahead of theirs, even if they spying is centuries ahead of ours.

The real killers would be outsiders. At-will teleport + blasphemy = SCREW THE RULES, I'M A DEMON!

But if we look at a barbarian reacting to a bullet with real world physics, his skull is penetrated, and even if he is a frenzied berserker in a frenzy, his brain can no longer operate and he's left there paralyzed, drooling, and not being able to breathe until he finally stops raging and dies. Or, for succinctly higher calibers, his head is missing completely.

Magic missile also wouldn't cripple an air strike, since magic missile only has a range of 300ft (before metamagic) at caster level 20. The plane likely wouldn't even fly that close to the ground before dropping its bombs/missiles. Hell, helicopters probably don't fly that close to the ground.

As for Earthquakes, I imagine most army bases are built to the standard that they would be affected little, if at all, by a typical earthquake. And certainly could stand up to one better than a stone mason building (which survives an Earthquake spell). It might do in a base with several castings, though.

1. First, D&D physics, because he is from the D.&.D universe. He’d keep going, in my opinion, unless he was decapitated by the bullet, because he is THAT. FREAKING ANGRY. Mines might work better.

2.So it would only work after metamagic and if the wizard was also flying? Hmmmm….. nah, he couldn’t catch up to it. Those jets are freaking FAST. But it could lead to the funny situation where the wizard targets the plane, but it outruns the spell and the magic missile follows the plane back to base.

3. I’m sure he has enough castings to work with that, and it would do a bang-up job on civilian targets. Not to mention stone-to-mud: although I don’t think that works on natural targets. Say, what about cloudkill? Are gas-masks still standard issue? And would there be a similar, A>O.E effect with the same range and same chance of burning out a cave? Reguardless, control weather would be seriously useful on all above-gorund targets. We can barley recove from one hurricane: one druid able to potentually make sevreal in a day would be a lving W.M.D as long as he lived, and only 1 needs to exixt to kill thousands.

[Little Brother]

One gunshot will severely annoy a powerful wizard by forcing him to recast astral projection. It might kill a poorly prepared one, though.

YMMV on the headshot or what have you, but not this. A high-level wizard is smarter than the most brilliant minds in our history(Probably quite significantly, depending on the fluff of how enhancement and inherent bonuses work on your real IQ). They've survived all the way to level 20. They are paranoid and brilliant beyond words. There is no such thing as an unprepared high-level wizard. Jus' saying.

In terms of scrying: it shouldn't be too hard to find the first outpost that the moderns have on the D&D side of the portal. (Summoning an astral stalker to find out where they came from would work well). After the outpost is eliminated (scry and die), then it would take a lot of preparation time before they could stage an attack on earth, but it would still be possible by impersonating, scouting, and divinations that don't require familiarity, such as chain of eyes. .

I would suggest summoning or simulacrumating(?) an Elemental Weird. At-will Divination means basically knowing whatever you want.

Funny thing, by the way. Elemental Monoliths, I believe, can throw tanks by smacking them hard. This suddenly adds incentive to actually summon them, over the spamability of Summon Monster/Nature's Ally/Abyssal Army/etc. I mean, throwing tanks! Several a round with Great Cleave and, say, casting Blood Wind on it. The coolness factor alone is awesome.

EDIT: On dragons: They are ancient, powerful casters. They have access to Ironguard, immunities, etc, just like a wizard. Dragons are much, much more than mere gigantic fire-delivery mechanisms.

[Slipperychicken]

Not to mention that our beyond-visual range capability is perhaps centuries ahead of theirs, even if they spying is centuries ahead of ours.

That's another minor point; dnd maximum ranges for projectiles are pretty small (1200ft if you're lucky), compared to the ranges from which a helicopter can simply blast things to oblivion (miles?). Plus, for long-range weaponry (snipers, artillery), making Spot checks to even see them before they fire is going to be brutal, with every 10ft imposing a -1.

For some perspective, a dnd character trying to spot a character hiding on the other side of a football field is taking a -36 penalty (practically impossible), while real-world guys will likely have an easier time of it, with binoculars, scopes, and all that jazz. So that will probably play into tactics a bit, until someone busts out the optimized high-level magic, anyway. At which point, all bets are off: dnd-verse wins.

[Doorhandle]

Good catch there on the dragons. I imagine there would be a few stupid ones that would be killed off early, but then the really clever (and really BIG) wyrms would come along with the correct sort of countermeasures to prevent detection by and/or survive a run in with a jet plane or five.

They'll need to as the jets can run rings around them while still dealing out enough firepower to kill one (except perhaps the fireproof ones, and even then, with GAU-8s flying about...) from outside effective combat range for the dragon.

On the other hand, I don't think that radar/sonar counts as divination, and thus I don't think D&D has any real counter-measure for such methods of detection. How good is modern technology at aiming by radar? I'm sure a great wyrm, if not a human-sized beast, could be picked up by sonar/radar, so the dragons would have to rely heavily on alter-self.

Also, the result of the above statement could determine how good the earth forces are at sea, as a sea-monster has a decent chance of tearing apart a sub if it could get close-enough without being picked up and outran/torpedoed by a sub.

dnd-verse wins.

Potentualy. Can you describe in detail how it does so, for the point of obvious?

[Amoren]

1. First, D&D physics, because he is from the D.&.D universe. He’d keep going, in my opinion, unless he was decapitated by the bullet, because he is THAT. FREAKING ANGRY. Mines might work better.

Which is exactly what I'm arguing. The point of a pistol disabling a barbarian with one shot to the head was the argument for each side handling what the other throws at them with their respective universal rules.

[Little Brother]

Superior invisibility will save you from sonar/radar/etc. With immunity to fire, sonic, and metal(Hello, Ironguard), they are immune to everything a plane can throw at them short of ramming. Even then, correct contingencies and buffs(And their hundreds of hit points) should save them.

Krakens alone would tear apart subs, I'd think. If not, the subs are wasting ammo on them. Aboleths would destroy all subs that entered their territory.

Hell, I think the DN's Deathblimp alone should give them air superiority. Actually, zombie Beholders as turrets? That'd be cool! Just need a way to give them eyestalk functionality...

[candycorn]

Let's get out of the high violence, and look at this for a moment:

Initial contact (small groups):

D&D:
Group includes a wizard, a Fighter, a cleric, and a rogue (typical explorers in a D&D setting).

This group will stumble into a world bereft of magic, and with strange golems used to transport people.

Initial danger: low. Generally, they'll avoid the high speed moving vehicles and obvious dangers. Modern society generally idiot-proofs most of its stuff, so low chance of walking into something deadly.

Adaptability: high. A dominate or charm spell, will allow them to gather intelligence, and unfamiliarity with casting will likely provide the opportunity to do it.

Infiltration chance: Good.


Modern: This group will include an anthropologist, a tracker, a survival expert, and a big game hunter (common explorers in modern times).

This group will stumble into D&D land, a land filled with strange creatures.

Initial danger: Moderate. D&D does NOT idiot proof its stuff. Generally, its stuff has pointy teeth and tries to eat you. Still, there is a hunter there, so a decent shot at protecting themselves vs most threats.

Adapability: Low. They have to gather information the old fashioned way.

Edge in small-scale and initial surprise: D&D world.

Large scale?

well, modern armies are large, accurate, and lethal. D&D armies are generally comprised of people with day jobs as farmers. Edge: Modern (though both have good special teams).

Thus, D&D is more suited to small scale forays and infiltration, and modern world is more suited to large engagements.

Overall, I give the edge to D&D world, due to the effectiveness of dominate + assassinate. Even a mid level wizard could go far, behind the scenes, enthralling minions to work for him.

[Gavinfoxx]

How close to weird arbitrary rules-y physics are we sticking for the D&D world (like the Spot thing?)?

I would presume that we are just talking about the major abilities, in a broad sense, and not the actual weird physics of the world as interpreted by badly written spot rules, right?

If the D&D world folk IS following that set of rules, (and I presume that this isn't set in a world that would have access to their canonical set of rules, of course! so we would have game-like things to look at, but not that exact set of rules, so this doesn't get really meta REALLY quickly, and the challenge functions...), how quickly would we be able to determine the important bits of how their physics functions?

[Little Brother]

Okay, since physics does seem to be a problem, let's do it this way: Normal laws of physics apply to the base rules(IE, yes you CAN see the sun, no drown healing), but class abilities/feats/specific non-framework thingies are in effect(Like Darkstalker bypassing Sonar). That makes the most sense, IMO.

[candycorn]

Actually, I don't believe darkstalker references infrared or sonar. Therefore, darkstalker wouldn't protect vs them.