Why can no one run a decent game of VtM?

[GoblinGilmartin]

So, i've been playing RPGs for a few years now, And i've been in a couple of games of VTM. I've run into a bunch of problems.

*The GMs start the characters off as complete noobs who get hand picked by the prince immediately and he'll leave them to face final death if they dont comply
*As far as the Metaplot goes, it makes no sense for anyone to do anything except for the malkavians, as they realize the impending doom and get to have a few last laughs at the rest of the world's expense
*everything the prince and his surrounding vampires do is to emass power. which is fine in and of itself, but again, world's gonna end, and your power will be all for nothing
*the factions are divided up into lawful douchebag and neutral a-hole with no middle ground. The GMs ran the Camarilla in such a way that i almost wanted to run Sabbat, just so I could be a little more independant
*Also, the GMs put too much into the NPCs, and didnt give the players enough room.

Maybe I'm too opinionated, maybe i'd be a better DM than a player, but i'd like my character in a system called the STORYTELLER system to be a little more than the slave to unarguable politics.

[Arbane]

Maybe I'm too opinionated, maybe i'd be a better DM than a player, but i'd like my character in a system called the STORYTELLER system to be a little more than the slave to unarguable politics.

[snark]That's why it's called 'storyteller'. The GM is telling a story, and you are there to SIT DOWN AND LISTEN TO IT. [/snark]

Yeah, railroading and uberNPCs seem to be big problems in WoD games.

[TheCountAlucard]

Maybe I'm too opinionated, maybe i'd be a better DM than a player, but i'd like my character in a system called the STORYTELLER system to be a little more than the slave to unarguable politics.

Hence why I now prefer VtR.

Asking, "Why can no one run a decent game of VtM?" is like asking, "Why can no one build a decent bridge out of marshmallows."

[Narren]

So, i've been playing RPGs for a few years now, And i've been in a couple of games of VTM. I've run into a bunch of problems.

*The GMs start the characters off as complete noobs who get hand picked by the prince immediately and he'll leave them to face final death if they dont comply

That's about as cliche as starting a bunch of adventurers in a tavern while "looking for adventure." It's also a lot more rail-roady.

*As far as the Metaplot goes, it makes no sense for anyone to do anything except for the malkavians, as they realize the impending doom and get to have a few last laughs at the rest of the world's expense
*everything the prince and his surrounding vampires do is to emass power. which is fine in and of itself, but again, world's gonna end, and your power will be all for nothing

Who says the world is ending? And even if someone is saying it, why would you believe them? You don't have to be a slave to the metaplot, it's just a tool like anything else.

And even if you thought it COULD be true, why bother shutting yourself off? What if you're wrong? You may as well keep on moving like everything is normal.

*the factions are divided up into lawful douchebag and neutral a-hole with no middle ground. The GMs ran the Camarilla in such a way that i almost wanted to run Sabbat, just so I could be a little more independant

Yeah, that one is hard to argue. The Camarilly tend to be stifling and the Sabbat is a bit too crazy. Like I said, you can change the metaplot, but those two institutions are a lot more ingrained into the setting (and the players minds) than "the world is going to end soon."

*Also, the GMs put too much into the NPCs, and didnt give the players enough room.

I've seen that, but it's really just a problem of a bad GM. Every system has those.

Maybe I'm too opinionated, maybe i'd be a better DM than a player, but i'd like my character in a system called the STORYTELLER system to be a little more than the slave to unarguable politics.

I've played in plenty of good VtM games, and run a few that I thought were enjoyable. Sounds like you've just had some bad experiences.

[Blackknife]

That is why when I ran Requiem (which suffers from a lot of the same problems you bring up) I actually made it all about fighting against the very idea of the Danse Macabre. Having the vampire characters ask why they do what they do leads them to some interesting conclusions, and even more interesting actions when they figure out that they can do something else if they so choose. It also helps to not introduce higher echelons of the power structure right away. What is really cool is when you get a Hero to basically follow a variation of the "did you just punch out Cthulu?" trope, and actually stop the end of the world, lay the smackdown on the prince, and bust the camarilla. Fun stuff.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Uh, sounds like you have a problem with the GM. System works fine, as far as it goes.

The metaplot is a real problem, but it is one that can be Rule Zero'd since, canonically, anything you've read about it in books is conjecture.

- Vampires work on amassing power because they don't believe the world is about to end.

- Different scholars have different opinions on how the Apocalypse is going to go down. Some think they can stop it, alter it, or use it to their advantage.

IMHO, the biggest problem with VtM is the larger WoD (i.e. Mages!) and the Morality Subsystems -- it is far too easy to lose Humanity and the other Paths are much easier to follow and have no downside to following them.

[Need_A_Life]

The GMs start the characters off as complete noobs who get hand picked by the prince immediately

Depending on the circumstances, I can see that happening.
In my old campaign, when the Camarilla was in a (losing) war with the Sabbat and one of my players insisted that he wanted to play a Lasombra antitribu ( ), who had just arrived in this war-torn city and "totally wanted to be Camarilla," he was met with plenty of hostility.

As a rule, though? Nah, having them deal with the scum of the earth first and learned to appreciate the crapsack world they are in and then meet a century-old Prince, who clearly feels they should be honoured that he's bothering to tear them a new one for endangering the Masquerade (which they will do eventually) and demanding that they serve some of his favoured servants as penance...
Now, that's fun.

(The greatest thing about running Vampire is seeing your players sweat.)

As far as the Metaplot goes, it makes no sense for anyone to do anything except for the malkavians, as they realize the impending doom and get to have a few last laughs at the rest of the world's expense

Which one? The Gehenna one?
Usually in a Gehenna-scenario, everyone will be aware of it. In a non-Gehenna scenario, the meta-plot doesn't tend to crop up much... except, maybe if you go looking for "Goratrix" or similar

the factions are divided up into lawful douchebag and neutral a-hole

Uhm, yeah?
The Camarilla are lawful a-holes, the Anarchs are neutral douchebags and the Sabbat are tragicomically stupid.
That's pretty much the setting. Competence or PR haven't ever been the strength of any of the sects. That honour belongs to individuals... and likable people are few, far between and supremely dangerous.

Also, the GMs put too much into the NPCs, and didnt give the players enough room.

Not understood?

Maybe i'd be a better DM than a player

Run a game. See if you like it.
The whole reason I started GMing was because no one ran games in the exact style I wanted. So, I finally grew a pair and decided that the game would never come magically out of nowhere, but that I could make it happen, even if I ended up on the other side of the screen.

[Tyndmyr]

[snark]That's why it's called 'storyteller'. The GM is telling a story, and you are there to SIT DOWN AND LISTEN TO IT. [/snark]

Yeah, railroading and uberNPCs seem to be big problems in WoD games.

That's a big problem in many systems that over-emphasize the story, and the DM's role in it.

There's nothing wrong with story at all. However, EVERYONE should be contributing to the story, not just listening.

[comicshorse]

They can you just obviously haven't met them yet

[prufock]

Maybe you simply aren't a fan of the setting. I'm certainly not.

[Engine]

So, i've been playing RPGs for a few years now, And i've been in a couple of games of VTM. I've run into a bunch of problems.

Could happen, let's see...

*The GMs start the characters off as complete noobs who get hand picked by the prince immediately and he'll leave them to face final death if they dont comply

Unfortunately this is one of the easiest way to create a coterie in a setting where most of the characters will be selfish and individualistic. I'm not saying it's a good way. But I could understand why one should use this way.

*As far as the Metaplot goes, it makes no sense for anyone to do anything except for the malkavians, as they realize the impending doom and get to have a few last laughs at the rest of the world's expense

Well, I feel this is mostly a problem of yours. There are rumors that the world will end this year because of some Maya prophecy, why are you posting here? Why going to work, to school, why even bother to play?
If you're doing these things because you feel this doom prophecy is false, why you can't apply the same reasoning for your character? She doesn't believe the Gehenna is real.
Another way is to have a character that tries to survive the Gehenna. Well, maybe it wouldn't work, but your character could at least give it a try.

*everything the prince and his surrounding vampires do is to emass power. which is fine in and of itself, but again, world's gonna end, and your power will be all for nothing

You know this. The Prince maybe doesn't know that.

*the factions are divided up into lawful douchebag and neutral a-hole with no middle ground. The GMs ran the Camarilla in such a way that i almost wanted to run Sabbat, just so I could be a little more independant

Well, I have no idea how your storyteller runs things. But, well, Camarilla is about politics, and strange and bizarre rules, and how to screw these rules without being caught.

*Also, the GMs put too much into the NPCs, and didnt give the players enough room.

Heh. Try to talk with your storyteller, then.

Maybe I'm too opinionated, maybe i'd be a better DM than a player, but i'd like my character in a system called the STORYTELLER system to be a little more than the slave to unarguable politics.

Well, give it a try.

[valadil]

*the factions are divided up into lawful douchebag and neutral a-hole with no middle ground. The GMs ran the Camarilla in such a way that i almost wanted to run Sabbat, just so I could be a little more independant

I've seen this sort of complaint a lot with WoD, although usually it's of the form "there are only 9 characters I can play in this system." I don't buy it. Even if the groups are as cookie cutter as you make it, your character doesn't have to be. What your character has to do is try to fit in or reject the groups that exist in game. Don't just play a Sabbat - play someone who thinks the Camarilla have it right, but can't actually stand working with them so he goes Sabbat after a couple months of struggling to be Camarilla.

[Tyndmyr]

I've seen this sort of complaint a lot with WoD, although usually it's of the form "there are only 9 characters I can play in this system." I don't buy it. Even if the groups are as cookie cutter as you make it, your character doesn't have to be. What your character has to do is try to fit in or reject the groups that exist in game. Don't just play a Sabbat - play someone who thinks the Camarilla have it right, but can't actually stand working with them so he goes Sabbat after a couple months of struggling to be Camarilla.

It's possible, sure, but the problem is, the existing templates shape expectations. So, you tend to get certain types of games with certain steriotypical chars from certain systems.

For example, "hating magic" is not something that a D&D barbarian needs to do, but it's ridiculously common. Hell, they need not be unintelligent, either, but an intelligent barbarian is remarkably rare.

And the further you go from those steriotypes, the more trouble you'll have fitting into most games.

[Terraoblivion]

Not to mention that the further you go from the stereotypes, the less likely you were to be embraced in the first place and it becomes vastly more likely that it was illegally and the prince has you killed because your existence violates his authority. Then after that, you'll have all your douchebag superiors in your clan who tries to make you conform. And that's before the mechanics heavily tries to push you in a certain direction. It's possible to avoid, of course, but I do find that VtM is the game that tries the hardest to force the archetypes of various splats on you.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Asking, "Why can no one run a decent game of VtM?" is like asking, "Why can no one build a decent bridge out of marshmallows."

You can. It just takes a lot of marshmallows, and it has to be over some ditch or something that's solid land and people don't go through, and you have to squish it down really good (probably melt them all together by heating them over an industrial-sized fire), and it's still harder than just filling it in with dirt or putting a couple planks across it (because let's face it, anything a gigantic mass of marshmallow goo can hold, a couple planks can hold). But if you're a real man, you do things the hard way!

...Oh wait. A DECENT bridge.

[GoblinGilmartin]

Just wanted to make a few clarifications.

It was my thoughts that if anyone, player or character looked around them, they would see that ALL the different groups surrounding them have some sort of "soon the world will end" thing, heck, the werewolf game is called Werewolf the APOCALYPSE. If a Vampire isnt smart enough to realize that something has the whole world spooked, how'd he get to be a prince in the first place?

i guess one of the problems i see is that based on a lot of the source material, the gehenna seems canon. I get it if the DM took a game and added a save the world thing, because that seems more like a failure than a certainty.

btw, If i want to absorb a story, i'll read a book or watch a movie. if i want to make a story, i'll sit around with some people and play an RPG.

It just bugs me to see a game that has so much potential if handled the right way get bogged down so easily.

And IMHO, not every vampire who doesnt struggle to maintain his humanity is evil. I like the idea that the beast can be worked with, without having to succumb to it. Alot of the alt paths even said that you could control the beast through familiarity. For anyone who saw the Avengers *spoilers*

that bit with banner being able to use the hulk for positive purposes because he has excepted it as a part of himself, and doesnt need to keep it wrestled down at all times and can now change freely without pain or loss of self, that's what i think vampire can be like.

Am I making sense? plz, ask any questions that could clarify.

OH, and also? i did have that one idea, where the characters start out taking orders from a baron of seattle (a big russian vampire who controls the shipping yards) rather than the prince, in order to give them a sense of scale.

[Blackknife]

that bit with banner being able to use the hulk for positive purposes because he has excepted it as a part of himself, and doesnt need to keep it wrestled down at all times and can now change freely without pain or loss of self, that's what i think vampire can be like.

Am I making sense? plz, ask any questions that could clarify.

"When fighting dragons, one must take care not to become a dragon, and when you cast out your demon, take care that you do not cast out the greatest part of yourself." Friedrich Nietzsche.

This gets into that classic scourge of god archetype, at which point the character starts behaving much more like the classic heroes in old myths. Interestingly enough the Lancea Sanctum of Requiem is perfect for that. It's a cool character concept and definitely something work exploring if you want to go explore those ideas through storytelling.

[Rallicus]

Sounds like a bunch of GMs trying to replicate the Bloodlines video game...

I could be totally off base here, as I've never played a WoD game, but reading your complaints makes it seem that way.

Is the system really like that?

[GoblinGilmartin]

Actually, I found Bloodlines to be pretty good. The characters were interesting and the dialog choices engaging. It really only felt like what i'm complaining about when laCroix is on screen. He's just a bummer....Everything else in the game gave you the feel of a very detailed alternate universe. The deals you could make behind people's backs, the...whatever.....It was really good.

What was good about Bloodlines is that you are in fact a lone agent. You have one on one conversations with people. In groups of four or five, you have everyone clamoring at once trying to squeeze as much as you can out of an npc, and they become checkpoints rather than characters. the Bloodlines experience, however nice it was, is not for group play.

[Rallicus]

Actually, I found Bloodlines to be pretty good.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I found Bloodlines to be awesome, it's actually one of my favorite computer games despite the plethora of glitches and lack of real difficulty.

I was more so referring to the fact that your campaigns seem to play out exactly how the game did. You're saved by a Prince, forced to work for him to expand his power, everything you do is for naught anyway since the world is going to end, and the NPCs control most of what players do (at least that's what I got from your last complaint).

Since I never played WoD, I wasn't sure if this was expected to be done in games or if it was the equivalent of meeting up in a tavern and later working for a king in DnD.

[Engine]

It was my thoughts that if anyone, player or character looked around them, they would see that ALL the different groups surrounding them have some sort of "soon the world will end" thing, heck, the werewolf game is called Werewolf the APOCALYPSE. If a Vampire isnt smart enough to realize that something has the whole world spooked, how'd he get to be a prince in the first place?

I feel that you're metagaming a bit. Werewolves and vampires aren't friends, so it's not that they share a lot of their knowledge. Your character doesn't have to know for sure that they're preparing for the doomsday.

i guess one of the problems i see is that based on a lot of the source material, the gehenna seems canon. I get it if the DM took a game and added a save the world thing, because that seems more like a failure than a certainty.

I still feel you're metagaming about it. Reading the clanbooks, where vampires talk "directly" to a reader, it seems to me that most vampires either do not believe the Gehenna will take place, or that their Clans have a special plan about it. So it's not entirely unreasonable that your character either doesn't care about these madman prophecies or she thinks she could survive the Apocalypse. And I know I'm the one who's metagaming now, but you could read the Gehenna book: there are ways to survive the Gehenna. At least for some vampires, of course.

btw, If i want to absorb a story, i'll read a book or watch a movie. if i want to make a story, i'll sit around with some people and play an RPG.

Sure, but you do not have to stick with the metaplot. The Gehenna could remain just a myth. It's up to your storyteller. By the way, in all my previous games of V:tM, I never truly played the Gehenna. Sure, sometimes my character heard a rumor, but for the most part it was distant, and with no effect on the actual play.

And IMHO, not every vampire who doesnt struggle to maintain his humanity is evil. I like the idea that the beast can be worked with, without having to succumb to it. Alot of the alt paths even said that you could control the beast through familiarity. For anyone who saw the Avengers *spoilers*

that bit with banner being able to use the hulk for positive purposes because he has excepted it as a part of himself, and doesnt need to keep it wrestled down at all times and can now change freely without pain or loss of self, that's what i think vampire can be like.

I disagree. Hulk is a superhero. Avengers is a superheroes' movie. V:tM is a game about damned soul, not heroes. Of course you could play the game as you like, but that's your call: just because other prefers to stick with some more canonical interpretation of the setting they're not doing it wrong.

OH, and also? i did have that one idea, where the characters start out taking orders from a baron of seattle (a big russian vampire who controls the shipping yards) rather than the prince, in order to give them a sense of scale.

It could be nice, but again: you should consider the vampires are, for the most part, selfish and individualistic. You have to give them good reasons to work together. I'm having difficulties working with a mostly good\neutral party in the PF campaing I'm actually playing because of selfish behaviours, in V:tM this kind of behaviour is expected.

[GoblinGilmartin]

It's hard not to metagame when there is a metaPLOT

I wasnt just refering to the werewolves. the lost, the mages, and them all have various shades of this. Nosferatu keep enough tabs on people to be up to date. You arent a good vampire prince unless you have at least one nosferatu on staff.

yeah, maybe i'm sticking too hard to the metaplot, but it was put there for a reason.

I'd think that if i were a vampire,(i'm really trying not to think too hard on that) i'd use the time i was given to improve myself. I suppose peer pressure is a huge factor, but I just graduated high school, and the last thing i want to do to relax is deal with imaginary jerks who are shallow and controlling and clique-ish. I suppose that would make it sound as if i didnt like the game, but like i said, it has serious potential. I remember once reading about someone who wanted to run a game that was sort of like a vampire version of Clerks. I've only seen the game taken in one or two directions by inexperienced GMs.

Actually, how about this. If anyone wants to, I'd like to host a few sessions of VtM over skype, maybe maptools or openrpg if necessary... I'll try to explain that way what it is i look for. Any takers? three to five people would be nice.

although maybe that's the reason the game didnt work out, it was over skype. I hate the dead spaces when you are dealing with a group, i get distracted....

[Aron Times]

nWoD has no metaplot and is more balanced than the oWoD when it comes to crossovers. In one game, vampires and werewolves might be mortal enemies, while in another, they might be working together against the oppressive mages. In a Vampire game, clan might be more important than covenant, while in another, it takes a back seat to the latter.

Also, the Blood Potency mechanic, which replaces Generation, keeps powerful vampires from holding on to their power forever, and allows younger vampires to grow in power over time, as opposed to the Generation mechanic where your character is stuck at a certain step save through diablerie.

Basically, every 50 years, a vampire's BP increases by 1. BP 1 is roughly equal to 13th generation, while BP 2 = 12th generation, and so on. Every 25 years spent in torpor decreases BP by 1. Elders need to go into torpor because at higher BP (specifically, BP 7), they can only feed on other vampires. Elders have to choose between weakening themselves or be blood bound to a younger vampire so they can stay active. Most elders choose to sleep and let the younger vampires take over.

Once those vampires reach BP 7 themselves, they go to sleep and pass on the power to the lower BP vampires, who might even be ancients recently awakened from torpor.

The highest safe BP (i.e. can still feed on humans) is BP 6, which is roughly equal to 7th generation. Note that BP does not scale directly with generation on a 1:1 basis, in case you thought my math was wrong.

[Narren]

It's possible, sure, but the problem is, the existing templates shape expectations. So, you tend to get certain types of games with certain steriotypical chars from certain systems.

For example, "hating magic" is not something that a D&D barbarian needs to do, but it's ridiculously common. Hell, they need not be unintelligent, either, but an intelligent barbarian is remarkably rare.

And the further you go from those steriotypes, the more trouble you'll have fitting into most games.

I disagree. At least in my experience, going against the grain has never been a problem in the game. A problem in the game-world perhaps (and perhaps that's what you meant), but that's generally what the player is going for when they go against the mold.

[Titomancer]

Someone once summed up V:TM (cam, anyway) quite nicely. "The eternal quest to dump a milkshake on your enemy's head in the middle of lunch"

I think that sums up the inter-politics of the cam. I should point out, I'm not much of a fan of it, but comparing the shallow, cliquish, self-absorbed walking corpses of ampires to the shallow, cliquish, self-absorbed walking corpses of High Schoolers is kinda dead on in that setting.

Let me be clear, I liked V:TM, early on in its publishing. Later on, as the publishers poured more and more over-arching, world-spanning conspiracies and metaplot, it got crap. it stopped being about the characters. My advice? Read the main book, and ignore any plot items that don't relate specifically to character (ie, bloodlines, merits, flaws, example archetypes) in any other books. Basically, what happened was that a game that was about the story of a band of characters became a story of a set world in which the characters happened to be in, but ultimately couldnt do anything about it. The publishers fell in to the classic GM boner of making the players insignificant. Rail-roading, uber-NPCs, the game itself fell victim to these. So, just ignore them. Rule Zero. Make the game about the characters. Just simply ignore that other stuff.

So some whacknut biker with hairy palms, and Casper at the abandoned sanitarium say the world's going to end. So what? Would you listen to every bum on the street with a sandwich board saying the end is nigh? No. So the main book says there's a rumor of Gehenna. So what? Who says it's talked about among the "populace"? I've played V:TM for entirely too long, and the amount of times that Gehenna popped up in an IC conversation I can count on one hand.

Just remember, V:TM is a game about the characters. Just because the writer's forgot that, doesn't mean you have to.


I realize this didn't actually help, but at least it lets you know you aren't alone in your frustration, and that there are (I promise) good V:TM games out there, but they are very hard to come by. When you find one though, you'll be recounting stories from that game for decades. Seriously, whenever my friends and I bring up gaming stories, they always end up going to WoD stories, as we all have several, and they're great.

[Driderman]

Firstly, the reason that plenty of Kindred in the Camarilla generally don't believe in Gehenna is because the official party line of the Camarilla is that there's no such thing as Gehenna.
Sure, the individuals of polite vampire society might take all sorts of precautions or investigate the phenomenon but to get caught actually implying that you believe in the end of the world would be a serious social faux pas that might take you decades or even centuries to live down.

The reason why the Camarilla doesn't believe in Gehenna is actually quite simple: It gets a lot harder to control your young ones if they think the world is going to end anyway.
Why would you bother obeying an ******* Prince if the end of the world is just around the corner anyway? Might as well go crazy, like the Sabbat does.

Which leads to the second part of why the Camarilla doesn't believe in Gehenna: The Camarilla is basically a product of the first Anarch Uprising, back in the middle ages. These Anarchs rose up, slew their sires and in time formed what is today the Sabbat. In response to this, others formed what became the Camarilla. The Sabbat believes in Gehenna, the Camarilla doesn't. 500-600 years down the line, in modern times, it's somewhat hard to suddenly say "Hey, we were wrong and our number 1 enemy is actually right".
Basically, believing in Gehenna is showing Sabbat leanings. You do not want to do that in Camarilla turf.

Also, even if you assume the metaplot is true and that the powers that be believe there's a reckoning coming, it's shrouded in so much conjecture and mystery. As far as I remember its assumed that possibly Caine will return and gobble up all the vampires, or that the Antediluvians will do so, but nobody knows for sure. At any rate, the Beast is nothing if not a survivor so most of these ancients who suspect Gehenna is coming is working hard to make sure its not their ass on the line when it comes.
LaCroix from Vampire: Bloodlines is a great example of this actually, assuming he knows more than he lets on to (which elder vampires always do), as he plans to diablerize one of said antediluvians and thereby not be a victim of Gehenna.
Another good example is Ruthven Lambach, one of the original Anarchs who knows a horrible truth about the Uprising and Lugoj, the Tzimisce who diablerized the Tzimisce antediluvian. He's sat on that secret for several centuries because he's so very afraid for his own unlife and because he hopes that by keeping it, he might survive the Gehenna.

In short, even kindred who believe in Gehenna will jockey for position and power because they all expect to be the one who survives it and want to be in a position of power when it comes.

As for running Vampire: The Masquerade games, on a microscale (citywide) my personal advice would be to watch a lot of gangster movies and series and then apply that mode of business and those switching loyalties to the immortals of the night.
The thing to remember about the Kindred is that most of the elder ones don't really believe in much of anything, other than power, the Jihad (eternal vampire politicking) and surviving. Any pretentions to a higher moral standard, be it humanity or a political club like the Camarilla, is usually a means to an end.

[Blackknife]

nWoD has no metaplot and is more balanced than the oWoD when it comes to crossovers. In one game, vampires and werewolves might be mortal enemies, while in another, they might be working together against the oppressive mages. In a Vampire game, clan might be more important than covenant, while in another, it takes a back seat to the latter.

Also, the Blood Potency mechanic, which replaces Generation, keeps powerful vampires from holding on to their power forever, and allows younger vampires to grow in power over time, as opposed to the Generation mechanic where your character is stuck at a certain step save through diablerie.

Basically, every 50 years, a vampire's BP increases by 1. BP 1 is roughly equal to 13th generation, while BP 2 = 12th generation, and so on. Every 25 years spent in torpor decreases BP by 1. Elders need to go into torpor because at higher BP (specifically, BP 7), they can only feed on other vampires. Elders have to choose between weakening themselves or be blood bound to a younger vampire so they can stay active. Most elders choose to sleep and let the younger vampires take over.

Once those vampires reach BP 7 themselves, they go to sleep and pass on the power to the lower BP vampires, who might even be ancients recently awakened from torpor.

The highest safe BP (i.e. can still feed on humans) is BP 6, which is roughly equal to 7th generation. Note that BP does not scale directly with generation on a 1:1 basis, in case you thought my math was wrong.

The cool thing is there is all kinds of ways around having to feed from other vampires, namely the blood sorcery tricks of the Sanctum, Circle, and Ordo Dracul. For the vinculum to actually take hold the drinker has to roll something-or-other+Blood potency, and elders are pretty good at that, so some just rely on their strong blood to to not be vinculumed. I prefer the Ordo Dracul method of second teir coil of blood myself, feed from anything no matter the blood potency. I do think the BP system is much more balanced than the generation system though.

[Tyndmyr]

I disagree. At least in my experience, going against the grain has never been a problem in the game. A problem in the game-world perhaps (and perhaps that's what you meant), but that's generally what the player is going for when they go against the mold.

It's not that it's impossible, but that the system encourages expected play in a myriad of ways, while discouraging other options.

Imagine playing a barbarian who is wise, and seeks to create alliances with others to gain power. This is thematically not a problem, but it's not tremendously encouraged by D&D. Realistically, a barbarian ends up being a guy with a big weapon who ends up stabbing the hell out of things in a dungeon nine times out of ten.

[DragonclawExia]

In my experience, in DnD, people WILL accept an Intelligient Barbarian as plausible or even interesting. They don't really care that much themselves, since the barbarian doesn't directly affect their own character at all.

There's no REAL reason not to, since DnD at it's core is still open to individual expression. The problem is people might get over-competitive, either the players or the DM, but that's a story for another time. It was created originally as a Game, and that still shows.



In my...honestly, minimal but memorable attempts at playing oWoD, it's abit different. It was impossible to escape the Metaplot. If the guys were serious in playing it, they know all about the metaplot, and are intent on doing it their way.

There are in-story reasons for a Tmizcse(can't ever spill it, but whatever) to NEVER even be associated with anything even remotely related to Camarilla. The politic groups are VERY divided and all "Archetypes" are heavily ingrained to one or the other.

If they were just trying it out like me, they will get absorbed by the bigger forces at play.

It's impossible to escape the metaplot. It defines the oWoD more then anything I can imagine. If they were playing oWoD, it's because they still cling to a metaplot almost a decade old, and have unfinished business with it.


You can't ignore the Metaplot. Rule Zero does not apply, because the main reason people still roleplay VtM is because of it's metaplot. Without it, there's no real reason not to just play VtR or even a modified point system or class system.

The Metaplot IS VtM.

[kyoryu]

The point about thinking about the Cam like you would a gangster movie is a good one.

Yeah, there's rules. Yeah, there's consequences. But there's gotta be somebody to apply those consequences, and that somebody has their own motivations.

Players break some Law? The Prince sends somebody after them? Okay, fine. Who's he sending, and what's their motivation to do so? Who might benefit from the players' actions that wants to see them keep going? Who might like to see the players thumb their nose at the Prince, just to weaken his position?

The Cam isn't an army. It's a collection of inherently selfish beings that have Laws to keep them from immediately exploding and taking everything down with them. Players are more likely to be a destabilizing element that somebody should take advantage of (directly or not) rather than new recruits to be beaten into submission.