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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default [3.5] New TO abuses

    I have recently been playing around with some TO abuses which I thought would be nice to share. Let me know what you think.

    Most of these abuses revolve around the Wu Jen spell Body Outside Body which creates several clones of you. The clones cannot cast spells but they can still use your other class features (SLAs, supernatural abilities etc). See last paragraph on interpreting Body Outside Body.

    The abuses are created by giving the Wu Jen extra abilities (using prestige classes and the Archmage's SLA ability) which then transfer over to the clones.

    Take the following prestige classes:

    Wu Jen 5/Fatespinner 2/Divine Oracle 1/Incantatrix 3/Archmage 5/Void Disciple 4

    And the following SLAs:

    Body Outside Body, Shapechange, Transcend Mortality and Wish.

    Use Body Outside Body to create X clones.

    Here are some of the neat shenanigans you can pull off:

    Free Wishes: Use your clones for X wishes per turn. Your clones pay the XP while you reap the benefits. Since Wishes can undo an event that happened in the previous round, your opponent needs to kill all your clones to kill you.

    Multiple characters: You effectively play X characters. You make X initiative checks and take X actions per turn. Ever feel like giving a beholder mage an inferiority complex?

    Force your opponent to fail any roll or pass any roll yourself: Use Fickle Finger of Fate (Fatespinner Ex ability) to force your opponent to reroll their saves (or other rolls) up to X times as an immediate action. This effectively guarantees a failed save.

    Use Fickle Finger of Fate to reroll any roll you make X number of times as an immediate action. This effectively guarantees a successful roll.

    Skill-scaling: Use Moment of Clarity (Void Disciple Su ability) to grant yourself AX feats (including epic feats) or skill points to any skill where A is your Int modifier. Use this to scale up your Spellcraft. The benefits of Moment of Clarity only last a couple of rounds, so if you are planning on using it offensively you need to plan ahead. Scry out your target (or Sense Void for fluff), put your Spellcraft through the roof, teleport in, stack up some serious metamagic (next section) and nuk’em up. Moment of Clarity also requires contact, so if you can’t fit X clones into the space around you, have them use their Wish SLA to reduce their size by replicating some polymorphing spell.

    Metamagic stacking: Have your clones use Cooperative Metamagic (Incantatrix Su ability) to stack metamagic. How does a twinned, maximized, empowered Deadly Sunstroke sound? Since you can skill-scale to astronomically high numbers, the normal Spellcraft limits for Cooperative Metamagic all but disappear. Also, things like damage reduction and savings throws stop becoming relevant. You will be able to create spells that will kill even if the save is passed and the damage reduction is applied.

    Mango’s guaranteed escape: Have all your clones Shapechange into a Psychic Sinew (Fiend Folio) and attach themselves to you. Cast Foresight (granted through Devine Oracle, Oracle Domain). Cast a Wish powered contingency to teleport away to safety and set the condition trigger to some immediate action (i.e the feather-fall effect from Heart of Air, Transcend Mortality cast by one of the clones etc). Finally persist all these buffs by using Metamagic Effect (Incantatrix Su ability).

    The Share Spells ability of Psychic Sinew will transfer all the buffs to all your clones. This is a generally useful method to buff all your clones with single casts (method adopted from team Solars). You now have the ability to always escape. If you deem it necessary, cast your immediate action to trigger the contingency (and take all your clones with you).

    You can always cast an immediate action, even during your opponents turn. You can even interrupt other actions with an immediate action which means that your contingency will always resolve first.

    There are two ways to counter this. One is to catch you flat footed which robs you of the ability to use immediate actions. That’s what the Foresight is for. With Foresight you are never flat footed. The second way to counter an immediate action is with another immediate actions, but since there are X of you, you will always have more immediate actions than they do.

    This is an exceptionally strong defensive mechanism. It doesn’t rely on initiative since you can act out of order and ignores the power of the attack since it resolves before the attack can affect you.

    Apologies for the narcissistic subtitle; I was just very impressed with myself when I came up with this. Of course someone is now going to point out why this doesn’t work or link to a post where someone already invented this (readying action to facepalm).

    Mango’s versatile contingency: If you want to take the above combo to the next level then here is an idea for you: use craft contingent spell to create a whole range of defensive and offensive actions, and have each of them trigger on a different immediate action. Since you have X clones you can have each contingency trigger on the action of a different clone (when clone 1 does Y trigger contingency Y’, when clone 2 does Y trigger contingency Y’’ etc). You will need to casts the contingencies independently.

    Another way to get the same effect without clones is with the Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil. The Iot7FV can cast 7 different colors of veils as immediate actions, so each of these could trigger a different desired effect that can be executed out of turn. Furthermore, each veil can be cast in 3 forms (personal, wall, sphere) for a total of 21 different kinds of immediate actions. Finally, you could have contingencies go off for different veil combinations giving you more triggering options than you will ever need. Versatile contingency provides a very sophisticated response mechanism, it even provides a counter to some classic D&D infinity loops like the Synchronicity infinite turn loop (What… I don’t get a turn? That’s ok, I have no use for turns).

    Clones galore: Cast Body Outside Body (as a spell), each clone can cast BOB as an SLA, each time dividing the HP of created clones by 4. Rinse and repeat until you can no longer create new clones (at some point the HP of newly created clones drops 0.5HP at which point I would rule that HP would need to be rounded to zero and no more castings are possible.

    While the number of clones created in this fashion is limited, it is still very high. A 20th level character can create well over 1000 clones. The math behind this is semi-complicated but I’m happy to elaborate if asked.

    Side notes on clone management
    • I like to divide clones into two categories. Tier one clones; those created through the spell, and tier 2 clones created through the SLA. Tier 1 clones can be persisted using Metamagic Effect. Tier 2 clones are not strictly speaking a spell so I would argue that they cannot be persisted. The vast majority of the clones created will be tier 2, and they will have a limited life span. This means you only get to play god in short bursts. At level 20 you can create 20 odd tier 1 clones, and much more if you start Twinning/Repeating your spells, so you’re still going to be punching well above most builds out there.
    • As clones use BOB to replicate themselves, they cut their HP in 4. After about 2 generations, your clones HP are very low. Furthermore any clone slain deals 10 damage to the caster. This can result in a nasty chain reaction where your enemy slays a handful of 1HP clones, these clone deals damage to their creators (killing them well) etc. A well placed AoE might result in you eating a lot of damage (if you created 20 clones yourself you are liable for up to 200 damage). For this reason you might want to include Transcend Mortality as an SLA in the build. Your clones can cast this as an immediate action to make themselves virtually indestructible, just make sure to dismiss them before the effects expire.
    • A strange phenomenon arises in this build right after you level up. A clone might ‘lose a level’ by draining themselves of XP using Wish. This results in a small loss of HP which for a 1HP clone means death. For this reason its important to make sure to gain a certain XP buffer right after leveling up (you need at least 10K XP for your clones to be able to withstand 2 wishes). With some careful planning, this shouldn’t be a problem.


    Fluff and aesthetic: I don’t particularly like the idea of walking around town with 1000 clones. Have your clones Polymorph into a small creature that fits with your character concept. Wu Jen are eastern characters so you could have your clones polymorph into small invisible spirits which your character commands (perhaps have them stored in a gourd when they are not needed). I personally like to imagine this character surrounded by colorful dragonflies (if good aligned) or locusts (if evil aligned). Its important that you Polymorph rather than Shapechange for this effect as Shapechange robs you of your supernatural abilities.

    Wrap-up: Well, that's it folks, I hope you got something from this. I am always looking for ways to improve the suggested build so suggestions welcome. High on my Wish list (badumdumpsshhh) is the ability to somehow use Celerity. While Wish can replicate the effects of Celerity, Wish is not an immediate action. Celerity + Timestop + Wish basically means the perfect response to any situation…. drool. There is a spare SLA that can be added to this build from the 5th Archmage level in case anyone figures this out. On the same note, if someone can figure out how to use Body Outside Body on the Wizards list then this class could be built on a Wizard base which unlocks Celerity and a whole lot of other cheese-balls. As it is the Wu Jen spell list is somewhat limited. As a Wizard you would lose access to Transcend Mortality though.

    I have more ideas on how to abuse this build after Lv20 (as if Epic characters needed more breaking), but ill sit on this for a while. Let me know if you want to see this .

    Interpretation of Body Outside Body: These abuses revolve around the Wu Jen spell Body Outside Body. The spell creates several duplicates of you, all of which gain your feats, skills and class levels but which cannot cast spells. By my interpretation, this means that they can use any of your abilities so long as this ability is not a spell (so spell like abilities are in, supernatural abilities are in etc). The entire build revolves around this interpretation and I will concede that a different interpretation renders the build ineffective. I have found several posts on these forums that seem to agree with this interpretation but you are of-course welcome to challenge it (I can already see all the replies to this thread quoting this paragraph).
    Last edited by Mango Eldar; 2012-06-16 at 11:21 AM. Reason: Format

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] New TO abuses

    Holy jeepers! How has no one commented on this yet! Good work man!

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    Default Re: [3.5] New TO abuses

    IIRC a Wu Jen/Jade Phoenix Mage allows certain Body Outside Body exploits.

    Also, you might want to make your title refer to the fact that these are all centered around Body Outside Body.
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    But we even have real world examples of cold cooking, so is it so unreasonable to say that in a fantasy world that could be the norm and that cold COULD be better than heat for cooking?

    You can produce several million pounds of Tarrasque steak every day! (Better hope he's edible.)

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] New TO abuses

    What level spell is Body outside of Body? Could it be combined with Ur Priest? Can it be cast by a Chameleon?(6th level or lower)

    The thing is, Wu Jens are pretty weak compared to other Casters, so if you could get the spell without the class that'd be awesome.

    Edit: Ouch, BOB is 7th level which means no Chameleon usage. Unless there is a way to get it at a lower level, I'm out of ideas....Erudite? Maybe Spell to Power?

    Yep, spell to power is your best bet to use these tricks without suffering through the Wu Jen class.
    Last edited by Madara; 2012-06-16 at 03:10 PM.
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    Andion Isurand's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5] New TO abuses

    A Shadowcraft Mage with Heighten Spell + Earth Spell + Arcane Disciple (luck, zeal or hope) can use a Heightened Silent Image to duplicate the effect of a Miracle spell to produce the effect of a Body Outside Body spell.
    Last edited by Andion Isurand; 2012-06-16 at 03:27 PM.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] New TO abuses

    A couple of points, here:
    1. For your escape, you would need to use Craft Contingent Spell, since Contingency cannot make a Contingent Wish. Second, for each of the Contingent spells, it takes time and experience to craft a spell, and there is no way to bypass the EXP costs of Wish when making Magic Items.
    2. Nonactions, like speaking IIRC, can be taken on someone else's turn, even while flatfooted. That would be a better contingency trigger, rather than relying on a 9th level spell that isn't always on.
    3. Extra Spell is probably the right way to go about adding spells to your list.
    4. Archivist working with Wu Jen and Wizards to make Divine scrolls of their spells would be able to get all of the spells, though not qualify for most of the PrCs here.
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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [3.5] New TO abuses

    Quote Originally Posted by Andion Isurand View Post
    A Shadowcraft Mage with Heighten Spell + Earth Spell + Arcane Disciple (luck, zeal or hope) can use a Heightened Silent Image to duplicate the effect of a Miracle spell to produce the effect of a Body Outside Body spell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    "Cold is better for cooking food than heat!"=wrong. As simple as that.
    Quote Originally Posted by moritheil View Post
    But we even have real world examples of cold cooking, so is it so unreasonable to say that in a fantasy world that could be the norm and that cold COULD be better than heat for cooking?

    You can produce several million pounds of Tarrasque steak every day! (Better hope he's edible.)

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    Default Re: [3.5] New TO abuses

    Quote Originally Posted by Madara View Post
    What level spell is Body outside of Body? Could it be combined with Ur Priest? Can it be cast by a Chameleon?(6th level or lower)

    The thing is, Wu Jens are pretty weak compared to other Casters, so if you could get the spell without the class that'd be awesome.

    Edit: Ouch, BOB is 7th level which means no Chameleon usage. Unless there is a way to get it at a lower level, I'm out of ideas....Erudite? Maybe Spell to Power?

    Yep, spell to power is your best bet to use these tricks without suffering through the Wu Jen class.
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    Last edited by Kuulvheysoon; 2012-06-16 at 05:15 PM.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] New TO abuses

    Quote Originally Posted by Andion Isurand View Post
    A Shadowcraft Mage with Heighten Spell + Earth Spell + Arcane Disciple (luck, zeal or hope) can use a Heightened Silent Image to duplicate the effect of a Miracle spell to produce the effect of a Body Outside Body spell.
    Actually, on this note, why not bypass ScM and simply use Arcane Disciple (luck, zeal or hope) to get Miracle on your spell list and then use High Arcana to put Miracles on all your clones? Then you can ditch Wu Jen, build the class on a Wizard base and use Miracle for Body Outside Body. So:

    Wizard 5/Fatespinner 2/Incantatrix 3/Archmage 5/Void Disciple 4

    For your High Arcana SLAs select Wish, Shapechange and 3x Miracle which you will use for casting Body Outside Body.

    The big problem with this is that it reduces the number of tier 1 clones you create and increases the number of tier 2 clones you create. Tier 1 clones can be persisted so they give you much longer lasting power.

    This also leaves us with an unused level.... hmmmm... what to do with this.

    As I mentioned earlier, you lose Transcend Mortality which is a really neat way of keeping clones alive but I suppose that's nothing a couple of persisted buffs cant fix. A small trade to make for Celerity and all the other Wizard and Cleric spells unlocked.

    Quote Originally Posted by DMofDarkness View Post
    A couple of points, here:
    1. For your escape, you would need to use Craft Contingent Spell, since Contingency cannot make a Contingent Wish. Second, for each of the Contingent spells, it takes time and experience to craft a spell, and there is no way to bypass the EXP costs of Wish when making Magic Items.
    2. Nonactions, like speaking IIRC, can be taken on someone else's turn, even while flatfooted. That would be a better contingency trigger, rather than relying on a 9th level spell that isn't always on.
    3. Extra Spell is probably the right way to go about adding spells to your list.
    4. Archivist working with Wu Jen and Wizards to make Divine scrolls of their spells would be able to get all of the spells, though not qualify for most of the PrCs here.
    1. I think you are referring to 'Cast a Wish powered contingency to teleport away to safety'. If so then I think you misunderstood. I am saying use a Wish to replicate the effect of contingency, not use contingency to make a Wish. The reason I suggest using a wish to replicate the effects of contingency is because contingency is not on the Wu Jen spell list. I think its ok that it takes time and experience to create the crafted contingencies. The XP cost is very low (1/25th of the base cost) and the contingency lasts until triggered. I cant imagine you needing to trigger many contingencies out of your turn, this is more of an emergency measure. The gold is not a problem, the Wishe's cast by clones can create items up to 25,000gp per cast so you effectively have all the money you need. When a clone casts a wish, its the clone that loses the XP not you.

    2. Yes you can speak out of turn but the rules do not clearly say whether you can use these free actions to interrupt someone else's action. I find the ruling of immediate actions to be cleaner. Your immediate action resolves before your opponents action does.

    As I mentioned before, the trigger doesn't have to be a 9th level spell like TM, it can also be a 2nd level spell like heart of air or one of your immediate supernatural abilities like Fickle Finger of Fate.

    3. I remember seeing that Wizards had specifically addressed this in some official statement (errata, FAQ) and that Extra Spell does not let you do this. I cant reference this though. Would be sweet if this worked.

    4. I don't understand this trick very well but I thought it was sort of debatable whether it works.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    Dip Wyrm Wizard 3(DrM) for any single spell added to your spell list.
    Oh yup, that should work, but I think you mean a 2 level dip.

    So it might look something like:

    Wizard 5/Fatespinner 2/Incantatrix 3/Archmage 4/Wyrm Wizard 2/Void Disciple 4

    For your High Arcana SLAs select Wish, Shapechange and 2x Miracle which you will use for casting Body Outside Body.

    You could use Wyrm Wizard to get Body Outside Body as a 7th level spell which brings us back to the regular amount of tier 1 clones, and since you now have 4 casts of Miracle as an SLA you actually increases the number of tier 2 clones. I think this is the most optimized version so far.
    Last edited by Mango Eldar; 2012-06-18 at 09:59 AM.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] New TO abuses

    As a thought experiment this is exceedingly well thought out...

    But, I have to say it is dubious, to say the least.

    I find it interesting what BoB says the duplicates are allowed to do, and what they're not allowed to do. Neither mentions SLA's.

    Is there a ruling that says if it's not mentioned it's allowed? Or one that says if it's not mentioned it's not allowed?

    Or would you be aiming for a book shaped bruise for even suggesting something like this in the hearing of your DM?

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] New TO abuses

    Quote Originally Posted by whibla View Post
    As a thought experiment this is exceedingly well thought out...

    But, I have to say it is dubious, to say the least.

    I find it interesting what BoB says the duplicates are allowed to do, and what they're not allowed to do. Neither mentions SLA's.

    Is there a ruling that says if it's not mentioned it's allowed? Or one that says if it's not mentioned it's not allowed?

    Or would you be aiming for a book shaped bruise for even suggesting something like this in the hearing of your DM?
    Like all TO abuses, this should not be allowed to run in a real campaign. So yes, if I was your DM I would be book bruising you.

    Read as written, your clones get your class levels. Class levels are the things that grant you your class abilities. If I said to you that you gained 5 Rogue class levels then the implication is that you also gained the ability to sneak attack. Ergo, a clones with class levels in Archmage should gain the Archmage's abilities, in this case High Arcana which grants an SLA.

    Body Outside Body specifically names the exceptions to the benefits of gained class levels (spell casting). Other exceptions such as SLAs (and other su/ex abilities) are not listed as exceptions. This further reinforces the case for clones being able to use non-spell class features.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] New TO abuses

    LordOfProcrastination found out about body outside body a long while ago. He named it Bob.
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] New TO abuses

    Quote Originally Posted by Endarire View Post
    LordOfProcrastination found out about body outside body a long while ago. He named it Bob.
    I was under no illusion that I was the first person to ever abuse Body Outside Body, I was just suggesting that some of the specific abuses I mentioned were novel.

    Just read LordOfProcrastinations thread..... wow that guy put some serious effort into breaking the game. I stopped reading when he decided to challenge Pun-Pun but I will have to go back and see how on earth he planned on doing that.

    The only combos we both covered are the Incantatrix related ones. As far as I can tell, all my other abuses are new.
    Last edited by Mango Eldar; 2012-06-18 at 09:23 AM.

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