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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Little Brother's Avatar

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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    How do you figure 30% for Mindsight? It's kinda automatic...

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    Wisdom is a dump stat to the SAD Wizard
    Not true! Those in it for the long haul dump all physical stats because shapechange and polymorph make them irrelevant.

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    Ok, here's what I've got, totally RAW, totally 3.5:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mindsight
    A creature that has this feat possesses innate telepathic ability
    that allows it to precisely pinpoint other thinking beings
    within range of its telepathy. The creature perceives where the
    others are and how powerful their intellects are.
    Prerequisite: Telepathy special quality.
    Benefi t: A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint
    beings that are not mindless (anything with an Intelligence
    score of 1 or higher) within range of its telepathy. This works
    much like blindsense—the creature knows what square each
    thinking being is in, but it does not see the being, and the
    being still has total concealment unless the creature can see
    it by some other means.
    The creature also perceives several observable characteristics
    about each being detected with mindsight, including the
    being’s type and Intelligence score
    . The creature need not take
    any additional or special actions to gain this information; it is
    as obvious to mindsight as the being’s race and clothing would
    be to eyesight.
    So it pinpoints Thinking, ie Thoughts. That alone should put it under Mind Blank's purview. Unless you can think without thought.
    Furthermore, it reveals information about the creature: Type and Intelligence Score. That ALSO is spelled out in Mind Blank.
    Quote Originally Posted by mind blank
    The subject is protected from all devices
    and spells that detect, influence, or read
    emotions or thoughts. This spell protects
    against all mind-affecting spells and effects
    as well as information gathering by
    divination spells or effects. Mind blank
    even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish
    spells when they are used in such a way as
    to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information
    about it. In the case of scrying
    that scans an area the creature is in, such as
    arcane eye, the spell works but the creature
    simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that
    are targeted specifically at the subject do
    not work at all.
    So even if you argue that thinking=/=thought, it blocks you from having information revealed about you, from any source.

    Quote Originally Posted by Discern Location
    A discern location spell is among the most
    powerful means of locating creatures or
    objects. Nothing short of a mind blank spell
    or the direct intervention of a deity keeps
    you from learning the exact location of a
    single individual or object.
    Having your exact location determined counts and is countered by mind blank.


    So, from what I can tell, Mindsight doesn't work on a creature that's been Mind Blank'd.

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    Ok, here's what I've got, totally RAW, totally 3.5:


    So it pinpoints Thinking, ie Thoughts. That alone should put it under Mind Blank's purview. Unless you can think without thought.
    Furthermore, it reveals information about the creature: Type and Intelligence Score. That ALSO is spelled out in Mind Blank.
    Nope, detects thinking beings. Not thoughts. Also, still not a device.
    So even if you argue that thinking=/=thought, it blocks you from having information revealed about you, from any source.
    By DIVINATION spells or effects. Divination means something quite specific. Mindsight ain't divination.
    Having your exact location determined counts and is countered by mind blank.


    So, from what I can tell, Mindsight doesn't work on a creature that's been Mind Blank'd.
    Uh, no.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    Divination spells is BEFORE the Or.

    it reads [Divination spells] or [Effects]
    there is no such thing as a Divination Effect.
    Is Mindsight an effect? If so, does it reveal information about a creature?
    Yes and Yes. It's countered by Mind Blank.

    Supporting argument: Wish and Miracle are not divination spells. They are still countered. Thus you do not need the [Divination] tag. It counters *Anything* that reveals information on a subject, including things that reveal your INT score and where you're standing.
    Last edited by Acanous; 2012-06-17 at 03:06 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    Divination spells is BEFORE the Or.

    it reads [Divination spells] or [Effects]
    there is no such thing as a Divination Effect.
    Is Mindsight an effect? If so, does it reveal information about a creature?
    Yes and Yes. It's countered by Mind Blank.
    Is eyesight an effect too? It reveals info about a creature!

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    technically speaking, no, it's a skill check.

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    technically speaking, no, it's a skill check.
    So, skill checks don't produce effects, but mindsight does? Do you have any rules basis for such a claim?

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    How do you figure 30% for Mindsight? It's kinda automatic...
    Because Mindsight doesn't tell you what I'm doing It just tells you that there is a creature in front of you... That is unless you can see the Rogue through other means... like looking at him/her However since the Rogue is hiding in the Wizard's Shadow they are treated as having total concealment because they do not have any other means of detect them... Besides performing a Listen check

    Sure you can say you know I'm in Square G6 but you can't actually do anything about it because I have completely concealment because your other sense can't detect the Rogue's...

    EDIT: I should be more clear, there is a 30% chance that the Wizard will notice that someone is pickpocketing him/her on any given attempt
    Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-06-17 at 03:20 AM.
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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    So it pinpoints Thinking, ie Thoughts. That alone should put it under Mind Blank's purview. Unless you can think without thought.
    Identifying the general area of a creature that thinks isn't the same as detecting thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    Having your exact location determined counts and is countered by mind blank.
    Incorrect. Having your exact location determined by Discern Location is countered by mind blank.


    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    So, from what I can tell, Mindsight doesn't work on a creature that's been Mind Blank'd.
    Then you are mistaken. Nothing in mind blank explicitly prevents any ability of mindsight from functioning, by RAW.
    Last edited by candycorn; 2012-06-17 at 03:12 AM.
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  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    I'm confused, where are spot increasing masterwork items? Wisdom is a dump stat to the SAD Wizard, and I'm assuming you want max ranks in Spot (18 ranks) and now we have to add the knowledge that odds are the Wizard will keep the Focus in only 3 places (because It can only be in 3 places... The 2 Robes pockets and the Spell component pouch. The Bag of Holding wouldn't count as being on the Wizard's person).

    Meaning that the Wizard has approximately 3 chances to detect me at a 30% chance each time (I refuse to do the math for that), But you know what? None of that really matters... I mean what self respecting Rogue above 7th level doesn't have Hide in Plain Sight? I mean every other class is forced to hide in the Wizard's shadow so why not use the Wizard's shadow to there advantage?
    MW tools are in the SRD.
    In addition, there's eyes of the eagle, which adds another +5. That puts it at +14.

    Also, you're not creative, if you think there are only three locations.
    Robe pockets, belt pouches, backpack main pouch, any of 8 side pouches for the backpack, inside pocket of robe, under effects of shrink item spell, and disguised as a speck of dust at the bottom of a coin purse, polymorphed into the wizard's eye patch/sock/underwear, inside the wizard's underwear in the front (+2 circumstance to diplomacy checks with the ladies), inside the underwear in the back (-4 circumstance to all social checks)....

    I can go on, really.
    All of this has happened before...
    and all of this will happen again.

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  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    Because Mindsight doesn't tell you what I'm doing It just tells you that there is a creature in front of you... That is unless you can see the Rogue through other means... like looking at him/her However since the Rogue is hiding in the Wizard's Shadow they are treated as having total concealment because they do not have any other means of detect them... Besides performing a Listen check

    Sure you can say you know I'm in Square G6 but you can't actually do anything about it because I have completely concealment because your other sense can't detect the Rogue's...

    EDIT: I should be more clear, there is a 30% chance that the Wizard will notice that someone is pickpocketing him/her on any given attempt
    Celerity/any other Swift move, Uncanny Forethought->Fireball/Vitriolic Sphere/etc, or Wall of X/Save or Lose/Dim Door/etc. If there's an unseen thing right next to you, you either kill it, or get the hell out. Or maybe pull out your Blindfold of True Darkness, then kill it normally.

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    Celerity/any other Swift move, Uncanny Forethought->Fireball/Vitriolic Sphere/etc, or Wall of X/Save or Lose/Dim Door/etc. If there's an unseen thing right next to you, you either kill it, or get the hell out. Or maybe pull out your Blindfold of True Darkness, then kill it normally.
    Any rogue worth his salt will have Darkstalker. That makes the Blindfold less useful.
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  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    Quote Originally Posted by candycorn View Post
    MW tools are in the SRD.
    In addition, there's eyes of the eagle, which adds another +5. That puts it at +14.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artisan’s Tools, Masterwork
    These tools serve the same purpose as artisan’s tools (above), but masterwork artisan’s tools are the perfect tools for the job, so you get a +2 circumstance bonus on Craft checks made with them.
    Spot is not craft, otherwise you and me are thinking of 2 totally different things and if we are, link me to it if you would be so kind. This becomes obscenely moot the moment I figure out how to blind you for a single round

    Quote Originally Posted by candycorn View Post
    Also, you're not creative, if you think there are only three locations. Robe pockets, belt pouches, backpack main pouch, any of 8 side pouches for the backpack, inside pocket of robe, under effects of shrink item spell, and disguised as a speck of dust at the bottom of a coin purse
    So all I'd have to do is steal the Backpack, the belt, the robe, the coin purse... Not to hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by candycorn View Post
    polymorphed into the wizard's eye patch/sock/underwear, inside the wizard's underwear in the front (+2 circumstance to diplomacy checks with the ladies), inside the underwear in the back (-4 circumstance to all social checks)....

    I can go on, really.
    I kind of giggled a little here (Not only because you don't have access to polymorph any object but something else...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    Celerity/any other Swift move, Uncanny Forethought->Fireball/Vitriolic Sphere/etc, or Wall of X/Save or Lose/Dim Door/etc. If there's an unseen thing right next to you, you either kill it, or get the hell out. Or maybe pull out your Blindfold of True Darkness, then kill it normally.
    You wasted your Celerity because those spells both offer reflex saves which Evasion gets me out of... Kind of shocked LB thought you were better then that... I'd like to recommend another addendum to the rules stating that teleporting away from the Rogue constitutes a surrender on the Wizard's part My reasons for offering this is because having the option of simply running away makes the entire experiment moot, because if the Wizard doesn't like the current situation they are in they can literally just flip the table and swear and cuss at everyone stating how they've won...

    Oh and on a side note: The Rogue can use Celerity as well at the same action. (Don't you love UMD?)
    Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-06-17 at 03:52 AM.
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  15. - Top - End - #195
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    Quote Originally Posted by candycorn View Post
    Incorrect. Having your exact location determined by Discern Location is countered by mind blank.
    Or by Wish or by Miracle, which are examples and by no means exhaustive.
    Having your exact location determined counts.
    Even if it did not, the ability ALSO reveals your int score, which puts it under the domain of Mind blank again.

    So... You're immune to the ability. Because it reveals information about you (Your int score). Therin it does not detect you (Because you are immune to it).

    So, instead of being Immune, Immune, Immune, and Undetectable, you're only Immune and Undetectable.

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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    So, skill checks don't produce effects, but mindsight does? Do you have any rules basis for such a claim?
    SKILL CHECKS
    Spoiler
    Show
    A skill check takes into account a character’s training (skill rank),
    natural talent (ability modifier), and luck (the die roll). It may also
    take into account his or her race’s knack for doing certain things
    (racial bonus) or what armor he or she is wearing (armor check
    penalty), or a certain feat the character possesses, among other
    things. For instance, a character who has the Skill Focus feat (page
    100) related to a certain skill gets a +3 bonus on all checks involving
    that skill.
    To make a skill check, roll 1d20 and add your character’s skill
    modifier for that skill. The skill modifier incorporates the character’s
    ranks in that skill and the ability modifier for that skill’s key ability,
    plus any other miscellaneous modifiers that may apply, including
    racial bonuses and armor check penalties. The higher the result, the
    better. Unlike with attack rolls and saving throws, a natural roll of
    20 on the d20 is not an automatic success, and a natural roll of 1 is
    not an automatic failure.

    Skill checks do not produce effects, they produce Results.

  17. - Top - End - #197
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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    SKILL CHECKS
    Spoiler
    Show
    A skill check takes into account a character’s training (skill rank),
    natural talent (ability modifier), and luck (the die roll). It may also
    take into account his or her race’s knack for doing certain things
    (racial bonus) or what armor he or she is wearing (armor check
    penalty), or a certain feat the character possesses, among other
    things. For instance, a character who has the Skill Focus feat (page
    100) related to a certain skill gets a +3 bonus on all checks involving
    that skill.
    To make a skill check, roll 1d20 and add your character’s skill
    modifier for that skill. The skill modifier incorporates the character’s
    ranks in that skill and the ability modifier for that skill’s key ability,
    plus any other miscellaneous modifiers that may apply, including
    racial bonuses and armor check penalties. The higher the result, the
    better. Unlike with attack rolls and saving throws, a natural roll of
    20 on the d20 is not an automatic success, and a natural roll of 1 is
    not an automatic failure.

    Skill checks do not produce effects, they produce Results.
    I will happily grant you that skill checks produce results. That doesn't prove they can't produce effects.

  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    in any case where a skill check would produce an effect, that also reveals information about a target, who is mind blanked, that effect would not detect information about the target.
    It would otherwise work normally.
    As far as spot checks are concerned, that's actually covered in opposed checks. It again is a result and not an effect ;p

    Are there any examples of a skill check producing an effect and not a result?

  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post

    Are there any examples of a skill check producing an effect and not a result?
    You are missing the point entirely. You're trying to say that "effect" and "result" are defined game terms. Up to now your only proof of this claim is an excerpt that happens to use the word "result" in such a manner that it appears to be ordinary language as opposed to a defined game term.

  20. - Top - End - #200
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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    Or by Wish or by Miracle, which are examples and by no means exhaustive.
    Possibly, but no rule example allows for it, so the rest of those is homebrew.
    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    Having your exact location determined counts.
    Your location isn't being revealed. "something is in X square" isn't an exact location. That said, please cite HOW.
    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    Even if it did not, the ability ALSO reveals your int score, which puts it under the domain of Mind blank again.
    Cite HOW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    So... You're immune to the ability. Because it reveals information about you (Your int score). Therin it does not detect you (Because you are immune to it).
    You keep saying this, but you haven't SHOWN it.

    Saying something is true doesn't mean it is so. SHOW it. Cite specific text in Mind Blank that allows for non-divination, non-spell, non-device effects to be covered by it.
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  21. - Top - End - #201
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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    OK.
    Here's Mind Blank again, with my "How" in bold:
    Spoiler
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    The subject is protected from all devices
    and spells that detect, influence, or read
    emotions or thoughts. This spell protects
    against
    all mind-affecting spells and effects
    as well as information gathering by
    divination spells or effects. Mind blank
    even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish
    spells when they are used in such a way as

    to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information
    about it.
    In the case of scrying
    that scans an area the creature is in, such as
    arcane eye, the spell works but the creature
    simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that
    are targeted specifically at the subject do
    not work at all.


    for those who want the easy text:
    This spell protects [the target] against information gathering by effects. even wish spells when they are used in such a way as to gain information about [the subject].

    That's how.

  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    You wasted your Celerity because those spells both offer reflex saves which Evasion gets me out of... Kind of shocked LB thought you were better then that... I'd like to recommend another addendum to the rules stating that teleporting away from the Rogue constitutes a surrender on the Wizard's part My reasons for offering this is because having the option of simply running away makes the entire experiment moot, because if the Wizard doesn't like the current situation they are in they can literally just flip the table and swear and cuss at everyone stating how they've won...
    Or Solid Fog. Or Forcecage. Or even Circle of Death(Hell, I could get a CL20 Blasphemy/Dictum off at level 9. If you can't cast level 6+ spells at level 9, you aren't trying). And running away is a perfectly valid method of preventing theft.
    Oh and on a side note: The Rogue can use Celerity as well at the same action. (Don't you love UMD?)
    Yes, but UMDing a wand is a standard action. So, yeah, I am unimpressed.

  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    Or Solid Fog. Or Forcecage. Or even Circle of Death(Hell, I could get a CL20 Blasphemy/Dictum off at level 9. If you can't cast level 6+ spells at level 9, you aren't trying). And running away is a perfectly valid method of preventing theft.
    Yes, but UMDing a wand is a standard action. So, yeah, I am unimpressed.
    Technically a Ring of Spell Storing lets you use the stored spell as though you were casting it (So a full round for summoning, swift for Celerity) but that's pretty freaking expensive.

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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    OK.
    Here's Mind Blank again, with my "How" in bold:
    Spoiler
    Show

    The subject is protected from all devices
    and spells that detect, influence, or read
    emotions or thoughts. This spell protects
    against
    all mind-affecting spells and effects
    as well as information gathering by
    divination spells or effects. Mind blank
    even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish
    spells when they are used in such a way as

    to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information
    about it.
    In the case of scrying
    that scans an area the creature is in, such as
    arcane eye, the spell works but the creature
    simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that
    are targeted specifically at the subject do
    not work at all.


    for those who want the easy text:
    This spell protects [the target] against information gathering by effects. even wish spells when they are used in such a way as to gain information about [the subject].

    That's how.
    Sigh. Anyone can bold selected text. Here's the real deal.

    This spell protects against:
    all mind-affecting spells and effects (Mindsight is not a mind-affecting spell or effect)

    information gathering by divination spells or effects. (Mindsight is not a divination spell or effect.)

    Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. (Mindsight is not limited wish, miracle, or a wish spell)

    In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. (Mindsight is not scrying)

    So, what have we learned?

    That we have a bunch of things that Mind Blank shields from. Unfortunately for your argument, Mindsight is not any of those things.

    We know this because Mindsight does not have the mind-affecting, divination, or scrying tags.
    Last edited by candycorn; 2012-06-17 at 04:21 AM.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    Are you saying it is not an effect, or that it is not an effect with the [divination] tag? My argument here is that you do not need the [divination] tag, that the seperation is [Divination Spells] or [Effects that reveal information about the subject]

    This is supported by two things:
    One: there are no effects with the divination tag that are not also divination spells (So no reason for the seperation if it was supposed to read "Divination Effects")
    Two: Non-divination tagged effects are listed as being under the purview of Mind Blank. (Wish, Limited Wish, Miracle)

    In one case, if you are arguing that it is not an effect, then what is it?
    In the other, if you are arguing that it must be a [divination effect] that reveals information about the subject, see above for my counterpoint.

    Edit: also, when you look at how the wording is ordered:

    1: This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects
    2: as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects.
    Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish
    spells when they are used in such a way as
    to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information
    about it.

    I believe that it stops information gathering, not divination tags.
    Look where it reiterates under Wish what it protects against.
    It states the Mind affecting part, and then states the Information gathering part. Not the Divination part.
    Last edited by Acanous; 2012-06-17 at 04:36 AM.

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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    Or Solid Fog. Or Forcecage. Or even Circle of Death(Hell, I could get a CL20 Blasphemy/Dictum off at level 9.
    Except for the tiny rule we all decided upon stating that the Wizard can't just super buff his caster level past 12 I mean our rules CLEARLY don't apply to you...

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    If you can't cast level 6+ spells at level 9, you aren't trying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    No, it really isn't. You are obviously claiming either high-OP doesn't exist IRL, or is badwrongfun. Which is it?
    "No, it really isn't. You are obviously claiming either low-OP doesn't exist IRL, or its badwrongfun. Which is it?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    And running away is a perfectly valid method of preventing theft.
    That isn't the point of this exercise, the purpose is to see if a Rogue can steal a fine sized object from a Wizard and hold on to it for 24 hours with limits... hell we all agreed that the Rogue can only make 6 standard actions out of those 24 hours, is bound by WBL and STILL has less to work with then almighty Wizard... Hell even if we gave the Rogue triple WBL he'd still have less to work with... Eh Whatever, Knowing you you'll take this entire comment as an admission of defeat, thats just how people like you work


    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Little Brother View Post
    Yes, but UMDing a wand is a standard action. So, yeah, I am unimpressed.
    You can't even put Celerity into a Wand...
    Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-06-17 at 04:30 AM.
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  27. - Top - End - #207
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Wavelab's Avatar

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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    Before we go further into the argument, does said wizard have mindsight? Does he have a dip in mindbender? If so then his build should be updated to include that dip.
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  28. - Top - End - #208
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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    Are you saying it is not an effect, or that it is not an effect
    Again, please provide a citation for where effect is defined, and defined in such a way that it excludes eyesight, scent, tremorsense, etc.

  29. - Top - End - #209
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    Are you saying it is not an effect, or that it is not an effect with the [divination] tag? My argument here is that you do not need the [divination] tag, that the seperation is [Divination Spells] or [Effects that reveal information about the subject]

    This is supported by two things:
    One: there are no effects with the divination tag that are not also divination spells (So no reason for the seperation if it was supposed to read "Divination Effects")
    Two: Non-divination tagged effects are listed as being under the purview of Mind Blank. (Wish, Limited Wish, Miracle)

    In one case, if you are arguing that it is not an effect, then what is it?
    In the other, if you are arguing that it must be a [divination effect] that reveals information about the subject, see above for my counterpoint.
    So... you are arguing to interpret this against the conventions of english language because... you choose that something doesn't make sense to you, so you will interpret it incorrectly to favor your view?

    I am arguing precisely what I said before. I took the precise words, in order, from the text, omitting nothing, and refuted each point.

    You highlighted a mishmosh of scattered words to support your point. In other words, you are ignoring the words that don't suit you.
    All of this has happened before...
    and all of this will happen again.

    Moving. Internet access is a bit spotty.

  30. - Top - End - #210
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Contingency - There when you need it?

    no, I'm ignoring words prefaced by "Or".

    See, where it says Mind affecting spells AND effects? That's the mind affecting tag being applied to the effect.
    See the Information gathering by divination spells OR effects? That's saying you don't need the divination tag.

    It's the difference between And and Or. But since you're lecturing me on proper english, you already knew that.

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