Divine Magic

[Craft (Cheese)]

I've noticed a bit of a trend in fantasy gaming: Where Wizard-like and Priest-like magic-using characters are considered to be separate (that is, they aren't just fused together into a single general magic-user), the only real meaningful difference between them is what selection of effects they have to use, e.g., the "Wizards shoot, Clerics heal" thing D&D attempts to do.



So, question for people with much more experience with these things than me: What are some games where the two types of magic are different? Not just as in they're better at different things, but the way they work is fundamentally different.

One example I do know that does what I'm talking about is the third edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay: Wizards channel power, then spend the power to cast spells. Priests use blessings, then pray for favor to fuel these blessings. Not as big of a difference as I'd like though, as it seems to be mostly an issue of timing.

[Jack of Spades]

Deadlands has:
Hucksters (Play poker with demons to cast hexes)
Shamans (Self-punish to receive blessings from Nature)
Blessed (Are so holy God grants them miracles)
Mad Scientists (Build the impossible, thanks to demonic taint)

All four of them use different systems to do their thing. Yet they are all represented by the same Edge (Merit/Advantage) that can only be taken at character creation. Hucksters and mad scientists basically utilize special skill checks to see how powerful the manitou they've invoked is, and thus what they can do (resulting in a pass-fail for the scientist or a power level for a huckster's hex). Blessed and shamans basically work up favor with their patron through praying and rituals, respectively, and then spend that favor to do magic.

As far as what they do, mad scientists build whatever they want, hucksters are more classical blaster/utility mages, shamans are mostly buffers and blessed are mostly healers.

The different tricks of the supernaturals in World of Darkness also work in fundamentally different ways in the canon, but the Mages are the only ones that are really different mechanically. Even then, however, from what I've seen their skill checks just take longer.

[Xuc Xac]

D&D invented the distinction between arcane and divine magic. Any other game that draws a line between them is following in D&D's footsteps. Having radically different systems for the two kinds of magic has more to do with the game lacking a core resolution mechanic and less to do with those two styles of magic being fundamentally distinct.

[Jay R]

D&D invented the distinction between arcane and divine magic.

Simply untrue. The distinction has been in the culture for centuries, as is proven by the presence of priests who would both pray for miracles and preach against witchcraft.

(The distinction between arcane magic and diabolic magic has never been completely accepted, but the difference between arcane magic and divine magic has been clear to everyone who believed in them.)

Any other game that draws a line between them is following in D&D's footsteps. Having radically different systems for the two kinds of magic has more to do with the game lacking a core resolution mechanic and less to do with those two styles of magic being fundamentally distinct.

Or it may have to do with the fact that they have been considered fundamentally distinct for centuries. For a modern but pre-D&D example, magic won't work on consecrated ground in Heinlein's story Magic , Inc. (published 1940).

[Xuc Xac]

Simply untrue. The distinction has been in the culture for centuries, as is proven by the presence of priests who would both pray for miracles and preach against witchcraft.

That's not Arcane vs. Divine; that's just Us vs. Them: "We practice religion and perform miracles; they practice magic and engage in sorcery." The argument looks the same from both sides. To a third-party observer, they're both just "magic" that takes the form of asking supernatural forces for favours. Even the most "wizardly" of real-world magical systems called upon gods/spirits/angels/etc.

[JoshuaZ]

To expand on Jay's point, there are even fairly old words to make the distinction between different types of magic. Thaumaturgy specifically meant magic empowered by the divine, although it does get confused enough that by the 1600s it is being used to mean "magic" in general. Similarly, the word theurgy means magic intended to invoke a deity or make a pact with it. That's why the Mystic Theurge class in 3.0/3.5 was called that, and why the divine/psionic one was then called the Psychic Theurge. They then got confused when they moved on to the warlock and made the warlock/arcane caster the Eldritch Theurge, but that's likely because whoever was making that didn't understand that "Theurge" didn't mean two types of magic. This is however an example where D&D really has had some influence in that I've at least heard people use "Theurge" to just mean someone able to use multiple types of magic in other contexts.

But the bottom line is that the distinctive nature of divine magic is pretty clear in sources dating well before D&D.

[caden_varn]

Not sure if it quite counts as fantasy (and is long out of print) but Torg had fairly different mechanisms for arcane vs divine.
Arcane casters get reasonably traditional spells based off 4 magic skills (divination, alteration, conjuration and apportation) and a number of arcan knowlegdes (e.g. fire, water, plant, animal, light, darkness etc). Any caster can in theory learn any spell.

Divine characters on the other hand got miracles. These were specific to your particular faith, and generally required multiple people to cast - a group faith, which the priest focuses (both using skills of the same name). The more people praying, the more likely the miracle was to work, and more powerful it would be.

While a nice system from a flavour perspective, it did basically make priest characters a bit dodgy to play (or at least use their miracles much) as they often needed a lot of people to help fuel the miracle.

[erikun]

World of Darkness has a pretty distinct difference between different magic systems. I recall that in old Vampire, "divine" magic was based off a character's humanity and was pretty much supernatural repellant, while "arcane" involved consuming blood pool for effects. There is an even greater difference when you compare, say, Mage "arcane" casting with something like Hunter "divine" gifts.

Magic in Burning Wheel is racially-based, and gains power by how close you are to the various races' ideals. Humans get stronger by being more faithful, orcs get stronger by being angrier, and so on.

In Shadowrun, mage spells and shaman spells are considerably different.

[navar100]

Ars Magica dabbles in this a little. Though the game is overwhelmingly about Magic, it recognizes two other power sources - Faith and Reason. In areas that have a strong presence of one of the three Powers, the other two won't work.

[NichG]

So I think there are many systems where there are different types of magic that are each implemented in a unique way. The intersection with the original post just requires that at least one of these be somewhat 'divine' themed.

7th Sea is a good example. Vesten rune-casting is a magic that feels and works very differently (and has a religious association) from Porte/El Fuego Adentro/Sorte etc which are more innate-type magics and are each very specialized. Glamour again feels very different, as you're channeling mythical archetypes. There's a bunch of other magic systems in splatbooks, such as a shamanistic one where items you possess gain either good luck or bad luck as they are used, which can be taken advantage of to do different things with the items. I'd say that these systems fall all sorts of places on the spread from arcane to divine in the D&D sense, but they all feel pretty distinctive.

[kieza]

I'm working on a 4e variant that makes the following distinction:

Spoiler

Show

For those not in the know, there are two kinds of limited resources in 4e: Encounter and Daily. Encounter resources recharge over 5 minutes, Dailies recharge over 6 hours.

In this variant, martial and arcane classes don't get daily powers, and divine and primals only get one. (This is the default; even martial and arcane classes can get more through feats, but you can only ever use one per day.)
-Martial characters get extra at-will powers depending on their weapon choices.
-Arcane characters know extra encounter powers, although they can only use as many per encounter as other classes.
-Divine characters get "Miracles," which are reallypowerful group buffs and direct attacks. There are generic ones, like Turn Evil, and others restricted by domains. (Like the Healing domain's Panacea).
-Primal characters get "Invocations," which are powerful self buffs fluffed as invoking a powerful spirit. They mostly include a game-changing buff, with a minor, possibly game-changing drawback. (i.e. calling on a winter spirit makes all of your attacks cause slowing, increases the damage of cold-based attacks, but makes you vulnerable to fire and prevents you from using fire-based powers.)

[Craft (Cheese)]

So I think there are many systems where there are different types of magic that are each implemented in a unique way. The intersection with the original post just requires that at least one of these be somewhat 'divine' themed.

I'm not gonna lie, this is just a thinly-disguised "Give me some game systems to look at so I can steal ideas from them for my own work" thread.

So if you have any magic systems that feel significantly different within the same game, even if they don't quite match up with D&D notions of "Arcane" and "Divine" magic, I'd like to know about them as well!

[Geostationary]

Well, regardless of your opinions of the game, CthulhuTech uses two different magic systems that work fairly differently.

On one hand you have sorcerers and the like- they use ritual magic that takes a while (from an hour or so up to a few days with prep) that would do things like provide wardings, allow you to manipulate someone over time, let you enchant items, and the like.
On the other, you have parapsychics- they have spontaneous casting (based on a skill roll) that expends mana. They tend to have either more combat-oriented abilities or on-the-spot manipulation. They tend to be more powerful, as they're spontaneous and can rapidly use powerful effects, but their powers scale slightly exponentially (making them expensive) and overuse results in "burn", causing their powers to go off at the slightest provocation in dramatic ways beyond their control.
Both groups overlap a bit with their manipulation and scrying, but sorcerers also get bindings, something that parapsychics don't get at all.

It basically divides magic into spontaneous or ritual, but both are fairly powerful in their own ways.

[Sampi]

Stafford's Glorantha and the Runequest system have three different magic systems. There's aminist (spirit) magic, divine (Rune) magic and wizardry. All have different power sources and different mechanics. You can learn all, but learning one doesn't much help in learning the other. Dabbling in any doesn't give much power, but focusing on any one can give a lot.

The current incarnation of Glorantha blurs the lines a bit, but it still has the differences inherent.

[Tyrrell]

Ars Magica dabbles in this a little.

It more than dabbles, If you look at the magical powers in the Realms of Power: Divine supplement then you'll see entirely different systems (Which, with the exception of Ars Notoria and the effects of true faith, fit into the methods and powers schema like most of the infernal and Faerie traditions). There are some expansions to the Divine magic rules in other supplements

• Cradle and the Crescent (mythic Zoroasterans) and
• the Church (mostly about becoming closer to god through pilgrimages,works, and asceticism)

In short Divine magic (in the more common methods and powers versions) involves the caster using their skill in a method, from memory some of the methods are meditation/prayer, purity (aesthetic deprivation), invoking the names of god or saints, and leading ceremonies) and their skill in a power to produce effects. Some of the powers are banishing spirits, seeing through illusions, healing, creating things (that list doesn't really do justice the powers as I recall them). In any case there weren't specific spells that he divine character learned instead there was a general list of guidelines for what was appropriate for each combination of method or power and "spells", if they were in line with the guideline list, could be made up on the spot and their level calculated based on the most appropriate guideline (or GM fiat for a thematically appropriate idea that did not fit a provided guideline), the range, the duration and the area of effect.

Outside of method/power Divine magic there was

• true faith which gave you huge benefits but wasn't really magic
• Faith points weak one time only benefits (similar to increased self confidence) to represent blessings derived from sacraments, again not really magic
• Ars Notoria (a magical tradition revealed to King Solomon by God which involves performing three-month long rituals to become more enlightened in specific ways, until the ritual wears off)
• Praying for divine aid (especially invoking saints) if you're in dire circumstances and you pray for aid there's a slight possibility that you could receive it, really magic but it was just something that anyone could do.
• Divine versions of more general virtues such as: touched by realm that allows a craftsman to craft items with minor magical powers, the virtue for artists to create art so moving that it has magical effects (I don't recall the name), or supernatural abilities such as second sight which need to be ted to a realm to determine how they act in different environments

[Tyrrell]

I'm not gonna lie, this is just a thinly-disguised "Give me some game systems to look at so I can steal ideas from them for my own work" thread.

So if you have any magic systems that feel significantly different within the same game, even if they don't quite match up with D&D notions of "Arcane" and "Divine" magic, I'd like to know about them as well!

Ars Magica 5 has pretty robust description of what a magical effect is and then goes hog wild designing new ways to create them.

Here http://rpggeek.com/filepage/58641/ro...story-of-magic
is a powerpoint slide I made a few years ago trying to put all of the magical systems into a historical context. You can see that there are lots of magical traditions on there. In the time sisnce I made that slide Rival Magic was published. It's a book of exotic traditions which described four groups

• A tradition of Norse wizards who shape change into the forms of giants in order to have the endurance to cast powerful rituals
• The magic of the amazons that uses how well the caster knows/ how closely related she is to the subject instead of range for spells
• The magic of Virgil that involves creating magical automatons, enchanting locations with magical effects that go off when triggered by something happening there, and divination by randomly reading sections of appropriate texts
• A tradition of sorcerers from the island of Soquatra off of the coast of Arabia who channel magic through the spirits of the island's trees

the slide was also made before Cradle and the Crescent a book that fully described the magic of the Order of Suleman,; a middle eastern tradition that is based on summoning spirits (including but not necessarily limited to jinn) and using the power of the spirits to perform magic that the wizards cast (they can of course also command the spirits to use their own powers but that's not new).

[LibraryOgre]

Ars Magica dabbles in this a little. Though the game is overwhelmingly about Magic, it recognizes two other power sources - Faith and Reason. In areas that have a strong presence of one of the three Powers, the other two won't work.

This does not seem to be accurate with Ars Magica as I know it.

3rd edition Ars Magica (when it was published by White Wolf) included True Reason as a precursor to the Technocracy of Mage, but that's been gone for quite a while (the 4th edition was published in 1996; it's been free since 2003).

Faith has always been an issue in Ars Magica (since 3rd, at least, when I first became acquainted with it), and it's usually been sovereign over the other domains. But Ars Magica, in general, has different systems for many kinds of magic, no matter what their source.

[Cerlis]

mmmmm....warcraft has some of that. THere are many types of magic users that can hurl a fireball, but the way that fireball is made is distinct. A Mage uses conjuration magic and arcane energy to summon and hurl fire from the elemental plane of fire. A Shaman communes with the elementals themselves and asks fire to grow and burn enemies, or earth to become liquid and turn to magma. There is even a sect of druids who have gained control of fire by attuning themselves to the "life" of the creatures in the plane of fire.

HOwever their differences allow them to do different things. A mage could ONLY destroy with fire, maybe heat some tea, but he point is he is only able to summon the fire, and maybe shape it with arcane magic and its properties. But thats about it.

A shaman, or one able to manipulate the life of fire can do other things. In the final showdown, Alextrasza, the aspect of life says "I will summon my fire to burn this corruption....It will not harm you"

Only a shaman or being able to manipulate the spirit, of fire, would be able to create fire that does not burn. Or in other instances, that burns corruption and then creates instantaneous growth of life.

[ZeroGear]

In an (admittedly unfinished) system I was designing, all magic was essentially fouled by skills. In other words, you had not have a number of ranks in a certain skill to be able to access a certain spell level, cast spells of that level, etc. there are five forms of magic:

Rune (knowledge arcane)
Spirit (knowledge nature)
Alchemy (knowledge alchemy)
Pact (knowledge the planes)
Faith (knowledge religion)

Each form of magic works in a different way. Rune is script based, and requires writing implements. Spirit works though totems and fetishes. Alchemy works through substances, either consumed or applied. Pact is based on deals with supernatural creatures. Faith works through prayers and chants.

The fundamental difference between Arcane (Rune) magic and Divine (Faith) magic is that Rune magic requires The user to scribe symbols on objects and function for a set amount of time while Faith magic only works (for the most part) as long as the user keeps up a set chant.

Hope this helps.