Interesting Ability Point System

[Blueiji]

I found an interesting point buy system and I'm interested in all of your opinions/critiques/suggestions to it.

Just so you know I didn't create the system I'm posting about, I read about it somewhere, and can't remember where.

Here's the specifics of the system:

- At level one, all PC ability scores are capped at 18 + your races adjustment to that particular score. So a human would have caps of 18 in all scores. While a Dwarf would have a maximum of 20 in CON, but a maximum of 16 in CHA.

- Each PC receives 74 points to buy ability scores with. One point in an ability score costs one of your 74 points. So a score of 10 in an ability costs 10 points.

- You may not put more than 15 points into any particular ability score, but racial modifiers can bring a score above 15. So an Elf who puts 15 points in DEX can have it raised to 17.

- At every subsequent level you gain 1 point to put in any one ability score, raising it by 1. This does not stack with the levels during which you normally gain an increase to ability scores.

- You may not raise one particular ability score twice in a row, you must alternate. However, you could raise a particular score every other level, as long as you take breaks in-between.

- If you put a point into an ability score during one of the levels that you would normally gain an ability score increase (levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20) then that ability score's maximum also increase by 1. Meaning that if your maximum DEX was 18, but at level 4, 8, 12, 16, or 20 you increased it by one then your new maximum would become 19. The maximums do not increase on any other levels.

- Racial Paragon classes, or any other class feature that raise ability scores also raises you maximum in the ability scores that that class feature affects.

So I think that's it. I have a sneaking suspicion that I left something out. But based just on that, what do you think of the system. It's supposed to simulate that PCs become more skilled and powerful over time, rather than all at the beginning and then remaining relatively stagnant for the rest of their careers as adventurers.

Thanks for your input

[DiBastet]

Seems okay. The spellcaster can only improve his casting stat beyond the maximum by 5. if you ban those books who increase stats, it stays mostly the same by higher levels.

[SowZ]

I'm curious what exactly you are trying to gain with this system, or what you are trying to fix.

[Blueiji]

To answer SowZ's question, the purpose of this system is twofold.

- First, to provide an alternative to rolling dice for ability scores (I know that there are already point-buy systems in existance, but no reason bot to try and devise new ones).

- And second, to simulate a feeling of growth within a character. The current rules on improving ability scores suggests the idea that within a span of 17 years (from 18 to 35 years old), a human does not change physically or mentally at all. This, of course, isn't true.

So I guess that the systems over-arching purpose is to have players start small, in order to get big.

[SowZ]

To answer SowZ's question, the purpose of this system is twofold.

- First, to provide an alternative to rolling dice for ability scores (I know that there are already point-buy systems in existance, but no reason bot to try and devise new ones).

- And second, to simulate a feeling of growth within a character. The current rules on improving ability scores suggests the idea that within a span of 17 years (from 18 to 35 years old), a human does not change physically or mentally at all. This, of course, isn't true.

So I guess that the systems over-arching purpose is to have players start small, in order to get big.

Well, there are aging penalties and bonus, but yeah, you don't really improve physical stats very much at all.

[TuggyNE]

- Each PC receives 74 points to buy ability scores with. One point in an ability score costs one of your 74 points. So a score of 10 in an ability costs 10 points.

The linear scaling is a little annoying, as it gives no particular reason to seek balance, except the hard caps.

- At level one, all PC ability scores are capped at 18 + your races adjustment to that particular score. So a human would have caps of 18 in all scores. While a Dwarf would have a maximum of 20 in CON, but a maximum of 16 in CHA.

- You may not put more than 15 points into any particular ability score, but racial modifiers can bring a score above 15. So an Elf who puts 15 points in DEX can have it raised to 17.

The combination of these is confusing initially (because duplicate caps seem redundant). Also, because there is no minimum ability (beyond the "hard-coded" limits, usually 1), it would seem logical to put 15 points in each of four abilities, 13 in another, and 1 in the last. The ultimate dump stat! (Imagine a Gray Elf Wizard 1 with Str 13-2, Dex 15+2, Con 15-2, Int 15+2, Wis 15, and Cha 1. Upon leveling through to 4, Int would be up to 20 [one below cap] and Dex or Con would be increased.)

It also occurs to me that an interesting variation would be to raise caps by the racial modifier if positive, but not lower if negative; this allows for slightly more unusual characters.

[Driderman]

- At level one, all PC ability scores are capped at 18 + your races adjustment to that particular score.

- You may not put more than 15 points into any particular ability score, but racial modifiers can bring a score above 15.

So the initial max at level 1 is 18 + racial modifier but you're only allowed to put 15 points in any attribute at level 1? How does this make sense at all?

[Sidmen]

- At level one, all PC ability scores are capped at 18 + your races adjustment to that particular score.

- You may not put more than 15 points into any particular ability score, but racial modifiers can bring a score above 15.

So the initial max at level 1 is 18 + racial modifier but you're only allowed to put 15 points in any attribute at level 1? How does this make sense at all?

Because you can only increase the hard caps by a total of 5 over the course of 20 levels, while at the same time you get 20 points of ability points to increase your stuff.

Of course, the "you can't put points in the same ability 2 levels in a row" kinda makes it worthless (you'll never have to worry about exceeding your hard cap on your primary ability). I suppose, it might limit your benefits from magical items - if you have an Int of 15 and pick up a circlet of Int+4, you'd cap out at an Intelligence of 18.

[TuggyNE]

I suppose, it might limit your benefits from magical items - if you have an Int of 15 and pick up a circlet of Int+4, you'd cap out at an Intelligence of 18.

Wait, what? I assumed the hard caps were only for base ability scores, possibly including inherent bonuses. If you're including enhancement bonuses as well, this would become a pretty terrible system (because no ability-boosting gear would be useful except on your weakest abilities).

[Ashdate]

I think your system -- as presented -- is too confusing to be worth using over a traditional point buy (especially since it doesn't really fix any problems as far as I can see).

Your big point seems to be to simulate a feeling of "growth", but I don't think you've properly articulated why the addition of new powers, abilities, feats (and ability scores) that are a core assumption of the game doesn't already provide that "growth" (or alternatively, prevent "stagnation").

[navar100]

I like one I learned called 27-25-23 that combines dice rolling with point buy.

1) Roll 4d6 best 3 three times. These are three of your scores.
2) Take any one score and subtract it from 27. That's your fourth score.
3) Take either of the remaining two and subtract from 25. That's your fifth score.
4) Subtract the last score from 23. That's your sixth score.
5) Add +2 to any one score (max 18 preferred but not necessary if you don't mind). Arrange as desired.

Examples:
1) Roll 16, 13, 12
2) 27 - 13 = 14
3) 25 - 12 = 13
4) 23 - 16 = 7
5) 16 + 2 = 18

My array is 18, 14, 13, 13, 12, 7

1) Roll 18, 8, 10
2) 27 - 18 = 9
3) 25 - 8 = 17
4) 23 - 10 = 13
5) 9 + 2 = 11

My array is 18, 17, 13, 11, 10, 8

Though my personal philosophy is "I won't demand an 18 for my character if you don't force an 8", I still like this system despite it often provides an 18 and an 8. You will get good ability scores for your primes. You can choose not to have any score below 10 by manipulating where you subtract, add +2, and consider racial modifiers. You might have two 18's with an 8.

[Blueiji]

The person who originally wrote this (I don't remember where I found it) didn't say anything about magic items interacting with ability score caps, but I would imagine that magic items can allow you to exceed your cap (as long as your base stats themselves don't exceed the maximum).

[Partysan]

I actually kinda like it. It encourages spread and helps MAD classes more than SAD classes (which is good and balances out the fact than high scores cost the same as low ones), it upgrades the very very slow progression of stats and the hard caps help realism along while being large enough for cinematic characters. Also, I can't really see much of a downside. The points can be adjusted after all.

[eepop]

Also, I can't really see much of a downside. The points can be adjusted after all.

Its very complicated for what you're getting out of it. Complication during original creation is fine, but this is every time you level.

On the basest level, just consider the new data you are going to have to track for the life of your character:
Maximum Strength
Maximum Dexterity
Maximum Constitution
Maximum Intelligence
Maximum Wisdom
Maximum Charisma
Last Ability Increased

Then depending on how this is interpreted, you may need to track where each individual point you added went. I am hoping that "does not stack" is just poor wording here and its trying to say this replaces the normal every four level gain, and you do not add those at all. "Does not stack" however would literally mean that you still do both, but you can not get bonuses from both of them on any one ability score.

- At every subsequent level you gain 1 point to put in any one ability score, raising it by 1. This does not stack with the levels during which you normally gain an increase to ability scores.

I'm not opposed to what the idea is trying to do, but it seems like there has to be a less complex way to do so. Maybe do the original scores the same way, but then raise mental scores every odd level and physical scores every even level? Then you do not have to keep up with any of the caps stuff.

[valadil]

On the basest level, just consider the new data you are going to have to track for the life of your character:

Agreed. I'd play this in a video game or a tabletop with a character builder, but I wouldn't want to track all that extra data. I just don't see what the payoff is for keeping all those extra stats on my sheet.

If you want to set max stat in stone (say 14 + level + racial bonus) I could live with that. I also like the alternating mental/physical stat bumps.

Just for the sake of discussion, here's the most interesting stat system I ever played: pick your own stats as they define the character. It was a neat social experiment since nobody wanted to look like the greedy one.