Rehauling the fighter (PF)

[ProudGrognard]

Endless are the discussions among the Wise on why, and how, a fighter has been rendered a useless class to play. This is not a thread about this subject. I want to propose a reworking of the fighter, based on specific presuppositions which I take for granted. I will explain which are these presuppositions and I will try to justify why I believe the changes I propose address them directly and indirectly. If you disagree, fine, my point is not to convince you, just to state my opinion. If you agree, then I would be very interested to hear your opinion on what I did with the class.

To my mind, the fighter in PF should try to model the great fighters of myth and literature. From Beowulf and Hercules to Conan and the Hulk, these mythic figures could jump over mountains, wrestle dragons from the sky and climb sheer cliffs that led to the palace of the gods. The PF fighter does not, I believe, make room for such kind of heroics. I would like the fighter to be able to eventually to perform feats of extraordinary prowess which border on the supernatural, without actually being magical. He should, as he levels up, be able to go from capable swordsman, to 'This is Sparta!', to besting demigods in wrestling matches.

I take as axiomatic more or less, that the goal of the game is to have fun, by playing with other people and contributing to the party. The fighter can be a very fun to be play. As a class, it does well what it was intended to does well, which is hurting enemies and withstanding their punishment. It appears however, that if a fighter wants to do things outside combat, or things inside combat other than hurting the aforementioned enemies, he faces an uphill battle (combat maneuvers excluded). This makes the fighter less versatile within a party than he could be. And it certainly breaks with many of the archetypes that it strives to emulate. On the other hand, it is important that each class retains a niche on which it thrives. The fighter should leave room for other melee combatants within the party.

The fighter also seems strangely prone to specific attacks. While in previous DnD systems he was a juggernaut (all good saves, for example) in 3.5/PF he seems much more fragile to specific attacks. This detracts from his usefulness and has no real justification in myth and tradition.

Finally, in the magically conductive environment of 3.5/PF, magic equals versatility (among other things). Paladins, rangers and magi become more useful in a greater variety of circumstances, mainly because they have access to magic. Barbarians also have abilities which make them more agile in different circumstances. Fighters, for some unexplained reason, lack these resources. But there is nothing that prohibits them from having some kind of extraordinary abilities, derived from their sheer stamina and heroic spirit. Once in a while, they could and should be able to jump 30 feet in the air through sheer strength, climb towers by plunging daggers in the walls or break through magical shields by the strength of their arm. These, after all, were the accomplishments which made them special in the stories that inspired us to play them.

To address these issues, I propose the following changes


INITIAL VERSION

Spoiler

Show

BAB, Weapon and armor proficiencies, HD, Saves : Unchanged.

Skills: 4 per level. Skill selection unchanged, however see Initial training below.
(I don't think that takes away from the skill monkeys. Also, other fighting classes seem to be doing fine with 4 skillpoints per level. I don't see why fighters can't have broader horizons)

1st) Bonus feat, Initial training, Skill and hard work
2nd) Bonus feat, Weapon aptitude, Grind the teeth
3rd) Armor training
4th) Bonus feat
5th) Weapon training, Heroics
6th) Bonus feat
7th) Armor training
8th) Bonus feat
9th) Weapon training, Heroics
10th)Bonus feat
11th)Armor training
12th)Bonus feat
13th)Weapon training, Heroics
14th)Bonus feat
15th)Armor training
16th)Bonus feat
17th)Weapon training, Heroics
18th)Bonus feat
19th)Armor mastery
20th)Bonus feat, Weapon mastery, Got you now, Heroics

Initial training (Ex): The fighter selects one of the skillsets below. These skills become class skills. He treats the associate ability score for these skills as 12, if it it isn't 12 or higher already. This becomes 14 at 6th level, 16 at 10th level and 18 at 15th level. If the skill is one that he already has in his skill list, he gains a +1 competence bonus to it instead, plus +1 in each level divisible by 5 (5, 10, 15, 20).

Guard: Knowledge(Local), Perception,Intimidation
Inspector: Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense motive
Wilderness warrior: Knowledge (Nature), Survival,Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Mounted warrior: Ride, Handle animal, Knowledge (Nature)
Knight: Knowledge (Nobility), Diplomacy, Knowledge (Engineering)
Thug: Stealth, Climb, Acrobatics
Temple protector: Knowledge (Nobility), Knowledge (Religion), Spellcraft
Collegiate guard: Knowledge (Arcane), Spellcraft, Knowledge (Planes)
Mercenary: Diplomacy, Intimidate, Nobility
Caravan guard: Handle Animal, Perception, Appraise
Sailor: Climb, Acrobatics, Swim

(This is intended to make the fighter more versatile in out of combat situations. He or she will never be as good as a bard in Diplomacy, for example, but he or she will be able to make a secondary face without having MAD)

Skill and hard work (Ex): The fighter can ignore the ability requirements when he selects a feat as his fighter bonus feats, if the ability in question is 10 or more.

(While I liked the idea behind the ability requirements for feats, I find that in the end they just seem to penalize the fighter by making an one trick pony. This, I believe, will enable him to do more things better, such as battlefield control, by taking multiple feat chains).

Weapon aptitude (Ex): As a full round action that does not provoke an AoO, the fighter can change the weapon specified in his feats (weapon focus, improved critical, etc).
(The fighter is the weapon master after all.)

Grind the teeth (Ex): A number of times equal to the fighter's Con mod + 1 per 3 levels (3rd,6th,9th,12th etc), the fighter can substitute his Will or Ref save with a Fort save. This must be decided before the roll is made.
(This is a step back to AD&D. It reflects the fact that fighters are tough. They persevere through grit and they have the scars to prove it. Note that the paladin still remains the save juggernaut, but the fighter is a close second.)

Weapon training: Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
A fighter also adds this bonus to any combat maneuver checks made with weapons from this group. This bonus also applies to the fighter's Combat Maneuver Defense when defending against disarm and sunder attempts made against weapons from this group.

Weapon groups are defined as follows:

Axes: bardiche, battleaxe, dwarven waraxe, greataxe, handaxe, heavy pick, hooked axe, knuckle axe, light pick, mattock, orc double axe, pata, and throwing axe.

Blades, Heavy: Aldori dueling sword, bastard sword, chakram, double chicken saber, double walking stick katana, elven curve blade, falcata, falchion, flambard, greatsword, great terbutje , katana, khopesh, klar, longsword, nine-ring broadsword, nodachi, scimitar, scythe, seven-branched sword, shotel, temple sword, terbutje, and two-bladed sword.

Blades, Light: bayonet, butterfly knife, butterfly sword, chakram, dagger, gladius, hunga munga, kama, katar, kerambit, kukri, madu, pata, quadrens, rapier, sawtooth sabre, scizore, shortsword, sica, sickle, starknife, swordbreaker dagger, sword cane, wakizashi, and war razor.

Bows: composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, and shortbow.

Close: bayonet, brass knuckles, cestus, dan bong, emei piercer, fighting fan, gauntlet, heavy shield, iron brush, katar, light shield, madu, mere club, punching dagger, rope gauntlet, sap, scizore, spiked armor, spiked gauntlet, spiked shield, tekko-kagi, tonfa, unarmed strike, wooden stake, and wushu dart.

Crossbows: double crossbow, hand crossbow, heavy crossbow, launching crossbow, light crossbow, heavy repeating crossbow, light repeating crossbow, and tube arrow shooter.

Double: chain spear, dire flail, dwarven urgrosh, gnome hooked hammer, orc double axe, quarterstaff, and two-bladed sword.

Firearms: all one-handed, two-handed, and siege firearms.

Flails: battle poi, bladed scarf, chain spear, dire flail, double chained kama, flail, flying blade, heavy flail, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, meteor hammer, morningstar, nine-section whip, nunchaku, sansetsukon, scorpion whip, spiked chain, urumi, and whip.

Hammers: aklys, battle aspergillum, club, greatclub, heavy mace, light hammer, light mace, mere club, taiaha, tetsubo, wahaika, and warhammer.

Monk: bo staff, brass knuckles, butterfly sword, cestus, dan bong, double chained kama, double chicken saber, emei piercer, fighting fan, hanbo, jutte, kama, kusarigama, kyoketsu shoge, lungshuan tamo, monk's spade, nine-ring broadsword, nine-section whip, nunchaku, quarterstaff, rope dart, sai, sansetsukon, seven-branched sword, shang gou, shuriken, siangham, temple sword, tiger fork, tonfa, tri-point double-edged sword, unarmed strike, urumi, and wushu dart.

Natural: unarmed strike and all natural weapons, such as bite, claw, gore, tail, and wing.

Polearms: bardiche, bec de corbin, bill, glaive, glaive-guisarme, guisarme, halberd, hooked lance, lucerne hammer, mancatcher, monk's spade, naginata, nodachi, ranseur, rhomphaia, tepoztopilli, and tiger fork.

Spears: amentum, boar spear, chain spear, javelin, harpoon, lance, longspear, pilum, shortspear, sibat, spear, tiger fork, and trident.

Thrown: aklys, amentum, atlatl, blowgun, bolas, boomerang, chakram, club, dagger, dart, halfling sling staff, harpoon, hunga munga, javelin, lasso, kestros, light hammer, net, poisoned sand tube, rope dart, Shoanti bolas, shortspear, shuriken, sling, sling glove, spear, starknife, throwing axe, throwing shield, trident, and wushu dart.

Siege Engines: all siege engines.

Heroics (Ex): The fighter learns to perform extraordinary acts of heroism. He learns one at 5th level and one more at levels 9th, 13th, 17th and 20th. Every time he is eligible to learn a new heroic, he can also replace the ones he already knows with others from the list.

Decoy: Once per day per 5 fighter levels (5th, 10th etc), a fighter provokes a foe to attack him to exclusion of all others, as a standard action. He does so by appearing to leave guards unguarded, being staggered and so on. The target of the attack must make a Will save against 10+ fighter level or engage the fighter at the best of his ability (ranged attacks, spells, melee etc).

Burst of speed: Once per day per 4 levels as a standard action, the fighter can increase his speed by 20ft for a number of minutes equal to half his level.

Put your back into it: As a swift action, a number of times per day equal to his Con modifier plus 1/4 levels, the fighter can add half his level to a Str, Dex or Con based skill.

Just a flesh wound: Once per day, the fighter can take a minute to assess the damage done to him and convert a number of hit points equal to his Constitution modifier*level to nonlethal damage.

Break through: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can ignore spells, spell-like abilities and supernatural defenses and effects that grant protection when engaged in combat with an opponent. The first successful attack acts as a targeted dispel, which does not actually dispel the active effects but instead allows the fighter to ignore it for the remainder of the encounter. The CL is the fighter's level.

Ignore impediment: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can as a standard action, ignore any and all impediments to his movement, as per the freedom of movement spell, for a duration of 1 minutes per level.

Combat mobility: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can, as an immediate action, take an additional move action as part of his turn.

Overextending: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can, as a move action, extend his reach 5 feet for the duration of an encounter.

Surprise Shift: Once per day per 4 fighter levels, the fighter can move 5 feet as a swift action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity and does not count as a 5-foot step.

Solo Tactics: The fighter’s allies are treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats as the fighter for the purpose of determining whether the fighter receives a bonus from her teamwork feats. Her allies do not receive any bonuses from these feats unless they actually possess the feats themselves. The allies’ positioning and actions must still meet the prerequisites listed in the teamwork feat for the fighter to receive the listed bonus.

(the following are adapted from the soulknife)

Combat Slide: Upon successfully striking an enemy in melee, the soulknife may immediately make a 5-foot step (even if she's already moved in the round, but not if she's taken a 5-foot step). In addition, when someone misses the fighter with a melee attack, she may spend an immediate action to take a 5-foot step.

Maneuver mastery: When a fighter successfully completes a maneuver, such as trip, sunder, disarm etc, he can opt to do damage equal to the weapon's base damage + half his strength mod.

Caught unaware: Once per encounter, the fighter can, as an immediate action, attack an enemy who has successfully struck her in melee. This attack is assumed to happen after the successful attack, so she cannot use this ability if the attack would put her below 0 hit points, nor does dropping her enemy below 0 hit points prevent the attack from hitting. A fighter must be at least 9th level to select this heroic.

Trade Blows: When a fighter uses the total defense action, she may make a melee attack at her normal attack bonus on anyone that makes a melee attack against her, regardless of whether the opponent's attack hits. This attack is resolved immediately after the opponent's attack. The fighter may make one such attack for each attack made against her. If multiple opponents attack the fighter, each attack she makes must be against the enemy that triggered it. All such attacks are made with a -4 penalty on the attack roll, and are an exception to the rule that you cannot attack during the total defense action.

Hamstring: As a standard action, the fighter may make a single melee attack against a single creature. If she hits, instead of dealing damage,the creature's ability is rendered unable to move for a number of rounds equal to the fighter's Strength modifier (minimum 1). A successful Fortitude save against 10 +the fighter level negates the effect.


(These are the extraordinary abilities I was talking about. They are weaker than spells, but useful nevertheless.)

Armor mastery: The DR given by the ability is DR/10.

Got you now (Ex): Once per day, the fighter can use his chosen weapon to make a touch attack (ranged or melee) as a standard attack. If it hits, it is a considered a confirmed critical. The ability is not expended if the attack misses.

FINAL VERSION

Spoiler

Show

BAB, Weapon and armor proficiencies, HD, Saves : Unchanged (but see Grind the teeth below).

Skills: 4 per level. Skill selection unchanged: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str) (plus see Initial training below).


1st) Bonus feat, Initial training, Skill and hard work
2nd) Bonus feat, Weapon aptitude, Grind the teeth
3rd) Armor training
4th) Bonus feat
5th) Weapon training, Heroics
6th) Bonus feat, Feat mastery
7th) Armor training
8th) Bonus feat
9th) Weapon training, Heroics
10th)Bonus feat
11th)Armor training
12th)Bonus feat
13th)Weapon training, Heroics
14th)Bonus feat
15th)Armor training
16th)Bonus feat
17th)Weapon training, Heroics
18th)Bonus feat
19th)Armor mastery
20th)Bonus feat, Weapon mastery, Got you now, Heroics

Initial training (Ex): The fighter selects one of the skillsets below. These skills become class skills. He treats the associate ability score for these skills as 12, if it it isn't 12 or higher already. This becomes 14 at 6th level, 16 at 10th level and 18 at 15th level. If the skill is one that he already has in his skill list, he gains a +1 competence bonus to it, plus +1 in each level divisible by 5 (5, 10, 15, 20).

Guard: Knowledge(Local), Perception,Intimidation
Inspector: Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense motive
Wilderness warrior: Knowledge (Nature), Survival,Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Mounted warrior: Ride, Handle animal, Knowledge (Nature)
Knight: Knowledge (Nobility), Diplomacy, Knowledge (Engineering)
Thug: Stealth, Climb, Acrobatics
Temple protector: Knowledge (Nobility), Knowledge (Religion), Spellcraft
Collegiate guard: Knowledge (Arcane), Spellcraft, Knowledge (Planes)
Mercenary: Diplomacy, Sense motive, Nobility
Caravan guard: Handle Animal, Perception, Appraise
Sailor : Climb, Geography, Swim, Acrobatics
Scout: Stealth, Perception, Survival

Skill and hard work (Ex): The fighter can ignore the ability requirements when he selects a feat as his fighter bonus feats, if the ability in question is 10 or more.

(Note that the feat in question must be taken with fighter bonus feats. No one class dipping).

Weapon aptitude (Ex): As a full round action that does not provoke an AoO, the fighter can change the weapon specified in his feats (weapon focus, improved critical, etc).

Grind the teeth (Ex): A number of times equal to the fighter's Con mod + 1 per 3 levels (3rd,6th,9th,12th etc), the fighter can substitute his Will or Ref save with a Fort save. This must be decided before the roll is made.

Armor training: Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.
In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.

Heroics (Ex): The fighter learns to perform extraordinary acts of heroism. He learns one at 5th level and one more at levels 9th, 13th, 17th and 20th. Every time he is eligible to learn a new heroic, he can also replace the ones he already knows with others from the list.

Harassment: A fighter targets a single foe which he is capable of attacking,with a standard attack. The target of the harasment takes a -2 modifier to all his attacks that do not target the the fighter, as long as the fighter spends at least an action attacking him. The penalty becomes -3 if the fighter is 10th level, -4 if 15th etc. If the fighter wants to change the target of his harassment, he must take a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity to reposition himself.

Burst of speed: A fighter can increase his speed by 20ft for a number of minutes equal to half his level each day. These must be spent in 1 minute increments.

Put your back into it: As a swift action, a number of times per day equal to his Con modifier plus 1/4 levels, the fighter can add half his level to a Str, Dex or Con based skill checks.

Just a flesh wound: Once per day, the fighter can take a swift action to assess the damage done to him and convert a number of hit points equal to his Constitution modifier*level to nonlethal damage.

Break through: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can ignore spells, spell-like abilities and supernatural defenses and effects that grant protection when engaged in combat with an opponent. This applies only to spells and spellike abilities that grant AC, partial cover and displacement bonuses, not to invisibility or mirror image spells. The fighter declares his intention against a specific target as a swift action.The first successful attack acts as a targeted dispel, which does not actually dispel the active effects but instead allows the fighter to ignore it for the remainder of the encounter. The CL is the fighter's level.

Ignore impediment: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can, as a move action, ignore any and all impediments to his movement, as per the freedom of movement spell, for 1 minute.

Combat mobility: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can, as an immediate action, take an additional move action as part of his turn. This action can only be used for movement.

Overextending: Once per day per 5 fighter levels, the fighter can, as a move action, extend his reach 5 feet for the duration of an encounter.

Surprise Shift: A number of times equal to his Constitution modifier the fighter can move 5 feet as a swift action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity and does not count as a 5-foot step.

Team leader: The fighter’s allies are treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats as the fighter, as long as fighter takes a swift action each turn to coordinate them. Her allies do receive the bonuses from these feats regardless if they actually possess the feats themselves, but only as regarding the fighter. The allies’ positioning and actions must still meet the prerequisites listed in the teamwork feat for the listed effects to take place.

(The above means that the paladin makes a shield wall with the fighter, but not with the barbarian, even if the barbarian does have the team feat in question).

Maneuver mastery: When a fighter successfully completes a maneuver, such as trip, sunder, disarm etc, he can opt to do damage equal to the weapon's base damage + half his strength mod.

False security: Once per encounter, the fighter can, as an immediate action, attack an enemy who has successfully struck her in melee. This attack is assumed to happen after the successful attack, so she cannot use this ability if the attack would put her below 0 hit points, nor does dropping her enemy below 0 hit points prevent the attack from hitting. A fighter must be at least 9th level to select this heroic.

Trade Blows: When a fighter uses the total defense action, she may make a melee attack at her normal attack bonus on anyone that makes a melee attack against her, regardless of whether the opponent's attack hits. This attack is resolved immediately after the opponent's attack. The fighter may make one such attack for each attack made against her. If multiple opponents attack the fighter, each attack she makes must be against the enemy that triggered it. All such attacks are made with a -4 penalty on the attack roll, and are an exception to the rule that you cannot attack during the total defense action.

Hamstring: As a standard action, the fighter may make a single melee attack against a single creature. If she hits, instead of dealing damage,the creature is rendered unable to move for a number of rounds equal to the fighter's Strength modifier (minimum 1). The target is not paralyzed and is able to defend himself normally. A successful Fortitude save against 10 +the fighter level negates the effect.

Feat mastery (Ex): If the fighter has a combat feat that has an improved or greater version, he automatically gets the improved and greater versions in the levels he would be eligible for them. He must still meet the requirements for the improved and greater versions of the feat (but see Skill and hard work). In order for the ability to function, the character must have fighter levels equal to the BAB required by the greater or improved version.

Armor mastery: The DR given by the ability is DR/10.

Got you now (Ex): Once per day, the fighter can use his chosen weapon to make a touch attack (ranged or melee) as a standard attack. If it hits, it is a considered a confirmed critical. The ability is not expended if the attack misses.

So what do you think? Is that a more versatile fighter? I eagerly await your thoughts!

[LordErebus12]

PF? its perfect as is....
create a variant class called Hero...

[ProudGrognard]

See, I don't think it's perfect. I believe that it is unnecessarily handicapped in very specific ways, such as versatility.

For that reason, I don't want to create another class. The above are in addition to normal abilities per level.

[LordErebus12]

See, I don't think it's perfect. I believe that it is unnecessarily handicapped in very specific ways, such as versatility.

For that reason, I don't want to create another class. The above are in addition to normal abilities per level.

I mean create a templated variant for the fighter, called Hero or Hero of Lore, etc.

Versatility? i cant think of a more versatile class than fighter? a dip into the class can create a unique blend to any class combo and going straight into fighter is no longer stupid, like in 3.5 version of D&D (3.5 made me cry some nights), with several variants that make for unique builds.

have you looked at Tower Shield Specialist or Dragoon, unarmed fighter, or two weapon warrior, etc.? they are all great!

[ProudGrognard]

Ah, I see what you mean now.

Yes, I have looked at them. And it seems I need to be more clear. In many ways, the fighter is indeed very versatile. In others.... not so. As I said above, he is versatile in being able to do potentially many things, but once he chooses, he usually becomes an one trick pony. And it is difficult to make him do more things outside battle as well as in it, because of his few skill points and restrictive skill list. And even if that are addressed, his stats are usually geared away from the skills that could be useful.

Also, he lacks the versatility that magic usually gives. Mobility, for example. I wanted to give him a small boost in that direction.

Anyway, it is all up there. As I said in the beginning, this is not a thread to convince anyone that the fighter needs a boost. If you do not agree, that is fine. If you do, here is my take on it.

[LordErebus12]

Ah, I see what you mean now.

Yes, I have looked at them. And it seems I need to be more clear. In many ways, the fighter is indeed very versatile. In others.... not so. As I said above, he is versatile in being able to do potentially many things, but once he chooses, he usually becomes an one trick pony. And it is difficult to make him do more things outside battle as well as in it, because of his few skill points and restrictive skill list. And even if that are addressed, his stats are usually geared away from the skills that could be useful.

Also, he lacks the versatility that magic usually gives. Mobility, for example. I wanted to give him a small boost in that direction.

Anyway, it is all up there. As I said in the beginning, this is not a thread to convince anyone that the fighter needs a boost. If you do not agree, that is fine. If you do, here is my take on it.

I always allow people to pick and choose among the abilities of up to two variants, as long as each ability chosen doesnt interfere with the same "Slot"

that way the barbarian class can use titan mauler for lifting heavier weapons with invulnerable rager for better DR.

ever thought to run in Gestalt pf games? its insane...

[ProudGrognard]

Well, Gestalting can get insane very easily very quickly. I once made a cleric/fighter that forced my DM (a wonderful and just fellow I might add) to ask me to make another character.

Picking upon different archetypes I like to do myself. But that is a different sort of fix that what I propose. Archetypes, I believe, mostly make fighter better in what he is already quite good. I am aiming at a different problem.

[LordErebus12]

Well, Gestalting can get insane very easily very quickly. I once made a cleric/fighter that forced my DM (a wonderful and just fellow I might add) to ask me to make another character.

Picking upon different archetypes I like myself. But that is a different sort of fix that what I propose. Archetypes, I believe, mostly make fighter better in what he is already quite good. I am aiming at a different problem.

i see the problem you aim at, i approve, i was just gauging your reasons...

[ProudGrognard]

So, any input then?

[LordErebus12]

So, any input then?

I say the two greatest problems is:

One: leadership functions (the cavalier believe has a rally feature or something that does something similar... but a companion warrior would rock.

Two: skills are extremely lacking... Tactics is non-lacking as is Skill in other things standard. i think you made a good attempt with the varying initial training. I would instead create one for each standard Variant of fighter and a few listed here.

I can help a little if you would like.

[ProudGrognard]

To be honest, both the Initial training and the Heroics lists I thought as just springboards. I would be glad for others to step in and add stuff.

I also agree that indeed a leadership possible path is missing from the fighter. However, I was loathe to add it in the format above, because it requires (again I agree) an archetype, not a reworking of the original class. Perhaps it could be done with heroics. Or some special fighter only feats.

But I must say that I still believe that more archetypes is not the answer. I would prefer a more flexible initial class chassis than a plethora of archetypes.

Any help and any suggestions are welcome, though!

[LordErebus12]

To be honest, both the Initial training and the Heroics lists I thought as just springboards. I would be glad for others to step in and add stuff.

I also agree that indeed a leadership possible path is missing from the fighter. However, I was loathe to add it in the format above, because it requires (again I agree) an archetype, not a reworking of the original class. Perhaps it could be done with heroics. Or some special fighter only feats.

But I must say that I still believe that more archetypes is not the answer. I would prefer a more flexible initial class chassis than a plethora of archetypes.

Any help and any suggestions are welcome, though!

I would add one ability from another class or newly created to add to the list of stuff the fighter gets.
like a single ability from another class at 6th, 12th, and 18th levels.

Call the ability: We Will Adapt (To Survive).

IE:
Rogue's Evasion at 6th, Ranger's Favored Enemy at 12th, Barbarian's Rage at 18th.

we now have a evasive, infuriated and out for blood fighter... now add a variant at go.

IE: Druid's Animal Companion at 6th, a Gunslinger's Grit ability at 12th, and a monk's fast movement at 18th.

Fast gunslinging warrior with a pet in tow.

[ProudGrognard]

But isn't that overkill? I mean, I don't want the fighter to step on other classes' toes. If he takes the barbarian's rage, then what does the barbarian have?

Neither do I feel it is right that the class becomes semi-magical. After all, the Tome of Battle exists for that sort of thing. I was aiming at, let's say, enriching the fighter by giving him options were he lacks them: In skills, saves, mobility and capstone abilities, for example.

[LordErebus12]

But isn't that overkill? I mean, I don't want the fighter to step on other classes' toes. If he takes the barbarian's rage, then what does the barbarian has?

Neither do I feel it is right that the class becomes semi-magical. After all, the Tome of Battle exists for that sort of thing. I was aiming at, let's say, enriching the fighter by giving him options were he lacks them: In skills, saves, mobility and capstone abilities, for example.

ah. i was just throwing the idea at you. i agree.

[Kane0]

Nice, clean fighter fix that doesn't do anything overly flashy without changing his focus too much. I approve

[nonsi]

Initial training
Give more of these with level progression, say at levels 6, 12 & 18.

Skill and hard work
The general idea is fine, but totally ignoring ability requirements is too much.
Give a solid alleviation that scales with level progression.

Grind the teeth
Call it "Grit" or "Grin & Bare It" (or something) and drop the self inflicted wounds bit. You don't dodge the bullet by hurting yourself.

Provocation
A man at arms does this via duping movements, not lingual skills.

Break through
What's the equivalent CL ?

Ignore impediment
Heroics represent rising above yourself at the need of the moment. Duration of 5 minutes per level is too long for reflecting that and isn't really needed.

Dart around the battlefield
At last something that gives some battlefield mobility and action improvement.
Just not enough #uses.
Also, this needs to be a hardwired feature, not an optional one.
At high levels, an immobile warrior is dead weight.
And make it immediate or swift action, otherwise Forcecage is still an auto-deactivation switch for poor ole' Fighter.

Got you know
I believe you meant: "Got you now"



I still don't see anything that deals with battlefield control (check out my Warrior's "Warrior Talent").

[Seerow]

Random suggestion: If you think the PF fighter is perfect, it's just that it slots the Fighter into a narrow niche, why not take the wizard route of fixing it?

That is to say, a wizard learns all spells, and can swap between them daily. Let the Fighter spend some paltry amount of money/time picking up new archtypes, and he can choose which one he wants to use for the day. Allow similar swapping out for feats, and maybe even skill points, and you make the fighter much more versatile without having to worry about the weird synergies created by gestalt.


Personally I doubt this would solve many problems, but it might be a step in the right direction.

[ProudGrognard]

Initial training
Give more of these with level progression, say at levels 6, 12 & 18.

Skill and hard work
The general idea is fine, but totally ignoring ability requirements is too much.
Give a solid alleviation that scales with level progression.

Grind the teeth
Call it "Grit" or "Grin & Bare It" (or something) and drop the self inflicted wounds bit. You don't dodge the bullet by hurting yourself.

Provocation
A man at arms does this via duping movements, not lingual skills.

Break through
What's the equivalent CL ?

Ignore impediment
Heroics represent rising above yourself at the need of the moment. Duration of 5 minutes per level is too long for reflecting that and isn't really needed.

Dart around the battlefield
At last something that gives some battlefield mobility and action improvement.
Just not enough #uses.
Also, this needs to be a hardwired feature, not an optional one.
At high levels, an immobile warrior is dead weight.
And make it immediate or swift action, otherwise Forcecage is still an auto-deactivation switch for poor ole' Fighter.

Got you know
I believe you meant: "Got you now"



I still don't see anything that deals with battlefield control (check out my Warrior's "Warrior Talent").

These are good suggestions. I am embarrassed about the 'know' typo...

On 'Skill and hard work', I was considering adding the level of the fighter in the relevant ability. However, in the first level that most feat chains start these does alleviates the problem only partially (needs a 12 instead of a 13). Why is it overpowered as is, you think?

On 'Provocation', making it about controlling movement would mean that the mechanics should be changed completely. How could that work? Perhaps someone hit would then have to attack the fighter to the exclusion of all others, but this is the case any way in most fights. Or the save can be Reflex? But I don't see it actually happening with say an archer at the other side of the room. I am open to suggestions!

'Break through': I added that the CL is the fighter level.

Finally, on your battlefield control question, I think that a fighter controls the battlefield by mobility and Combat maneuvers. With the above, he can dash across the battlefield, jump over the mooks and engage the spellcaster behind them. Or trip them as the pass by. But I am always open to suggestions about other heroics that could be added to the list.

[ProudGrognard]

Nice, clean fighter fix that doesn't do anything overly flashy without changing his focus too much. I approve

Thanks Kane0!

[nonsi]

On 'Skill and hard work', I was considering adding the level of the fighter in the relevant ability. However, in the first level that most feat chains start these does alleviates the problem only partially (needs a 12 instead of a 13). Why is it overpowered as is, you think?

Something doesn't feel right if a goofy fighter with Dex 6 takes Manyshots (you wrote: "can ignore the ability requirements") and goes Legolas all of a sudden.

On 'Provocation', making it about controlling movement would mean that the mechanics should be changed completely. How could that work?

The idea is that you move in a manner that makes your opponent sure that you're staggered or something - in general, a real easy target (a sort of once in a lifetime bargain - a decoy that's hard to ignore).

Finally, on your battlefield control question, I think that a fighter controls the battlefield by mobility and Combat maneuvers.

I regard battlefield control as
- having a significant edge in Bull Rush/Disarm/Trip/Sunder
- having superior hit&damage in AoOs
- increased reach
- enemies taking penalties when attacking someone else or moving, just by being threatened by you
- having alleviated "Ready"/"Delay" penalties and restrictions


And again, regarding "Dart around the battlefield".
Make it a hardwired feature (and for heaven's sake, give it a better name - something like "Combat Mobility").
Also, make it possible for a fighter with this feature to spend an immediate action and forfeit his AoOs for the ability to make an off-turn move action - this is crucial for dodging nasty spells that don't allow saves (such as Forcecage).

[ProudGrognard]

Something doesn't feel right if a goofy fighter with Dex 6 takes Manyshots (you wrote: "can ignore the ability requirements") and goes Legolas all of a sudden.



The idea is that you move in a manner that makes your opponent sure that you're staggered or something - in general, a real easy target (a sort of once in a lifetime bargain - a decoy that's hard to ignore).



I regard battlefield control as
- having a significant edge in Bull Rush/Disarm/Trip/Sunder
- having superior hit&damage in AoOs
- increased reach
- enemies taking penalties when attacking someone else or moving, just by being threatened by you
- having alleviated "Ready"/"Delay" penalties and restrictions


And again, regarding "Dart around the battlefield".
Make it a hardwired feature (and for heaven's sake, give it a better name - something like "Combat Mobility").
Also, make it possible for a fighter with this feature to spend an immediate action and forfeit his AoOs for the ability to make an off-turn move action - this is crucial for dodging nasty spells that don't allow saves (such as Forcecage).

Again, good points.

Regarding the abilities requirements, I think I will add that it will work only of the ability in question is 10 or more already. Because, I have a premonition that some cheese is lying around that.

I will also change Provocation to Decoy and rework the mechanics. Excellent idea.

And finally, I see your point about the newly named Combat Mobility, I will work on it. Though I still don't think it should be hardwired, as you say. Actions are valuable currency.

I agree with what you say constitutes Battlefield Control. However, many of these stuff I believe should be covered by feats, even fighter only feats. But again, one of the points of this fix what to allow for multiple feat chains. So, what would you think about an ability that allowed the automatic upgrade of feats? I mean from Weapon Focus to Greater WF, from Improved Trip to Greater Trip and so on? Around say 9th level?

[ProudGrognard]

A feeble attempt at bumping. Any other thoughts? Especially in the automatic upgrade of feats proposal?

[nonsi]

A feeble attempt at bumping. Any other thoughts? Especially in the automatic upgrade of feats proposal?

- Feat chains are not of identical lengths.
- Feats within feat chains are not of equal potency.
- Feats within different feat chains have different minimum level and different requirements.

For all the above reasons, you're never gonna find a formula that will reconcile feat chains the way you envision.

As for Combat Mobility...
The very fact that actions are valuable currency only emphasizes the need to make it hardwired.
The way you Fighter's features are spread out at current, Id do it as follows:

First of all, since this has nothing to do with heroics, but a genuine need of the ace of melee, "Once per day per..." has got to go.

Next, I'd spread the abilities as follows

Level 7: Instant Reaction (Ex): The fighter may spend a swift action to move a distance no greater than his speed (a move action that may only be used for movement) or take a 5ft-step. He may also spend an immediate action and forfeit his AoOs for taking a 5-ft step.

Level 11: Combat Mobility (Ex): The fighter may spend a swift action to make a full attack as a standard action. He may also spend a swift action to move up to his speed while making a full attack, spreading his attacks against any opponent he chooses to target within reach.

Level 15: Tide of battle (Ex): The fighter may spend a swift action and a move action to take a standard action. He may also spend an immediate action for taking a 5-ft step, or spend an immediate action and forfeit his AoOs for taking a move action (which is not limited only for movement).


Without these features, no matter how many innovative ideas you put into your Fighter fix - it'll always be crippled compared to the other factors on the battlefield.
Just try to imagine the different kinds of opponent's a fighter at those levels is supposed to be able to cope with and the different character's he'll be campaigning with (THIS for instance, which is perfectly legit, given ToB is official WotC material).

[ProudGrognard]

- Feat chains are not of identical lengths.
- Feats within feat chains are not of equal potency.
- Feats within different feat chains have different minimum level and different requirements.

For all the above reasons, you're never gonna find a formula that will reconcile feat chains the way you envision.

As for Combat Mobility...
The very fact that actions are valuable currency only emphasizes the need to make it hardwired.
The way you Fighter's features are spread out at current, Id do it as follows:

First of all, since this has nothing to do with heroics, but a genuine need of the ace of melee, "Once per day per..." has got to go.

Next, I'd spread the abilities as follows

Level 7: Instant Reaction (Ex): The fighter may spend a swift action to move a distance no greater than his speed (a move action that may only be used for movement) or take a 5ft-step. He may also spend an immediate action and forfeit his AoOs for taking a 5-ft step.

Level 11: Combat Mobility (Ex): The fighter may spend a swift action to make a full attack as a standard action. He may also spend a swift action to move up to his speed while making a full attack, spreading his attacks against any opponent he chooses to target within reach.

Level 15: Tide of battle (Ex): The fighter may spend a swift action and a move action to take a standard action. He may also spend an immediate action for taking a 5-ft step, or spend an immediate action and forfeit his AoOs for taking a move action (which is not limited only for movement).


Without these features, no matter how many innovative ideas you put into your Fighter fix - it'll always be crippled compared to the other factors on the battlefield.
Just try to imagine the different kinds of opponent's a fighter at those levels is supposed to be able to cope with and the different character's he'll be campaigning with (THIS for instance, which is perfectly legit, given ToB is official WotC material).

Once again, valuable feedback. Thanks Nonsi.

Regarding the feats, I see what you are saying. It is certainly a problem. Do you think that more careful wording would alleviate the problem ( something like 'Gain a the greater/improved feat after X levels'). Or do you think this is unnecessary?

As for the abilities, I would be all for removing the 'once per day' thingy. I really like your suggestions. However (even if I make them optional by including them into the Heroics thingy, which you disapprove), I feel they are a bit ...unconductive to game balance.

Instant reaction means that the fighter always has an extra movement, in every turn. He is effectively as fast as a monk, and able to split his movement. He then could do the following: Get close to someone, attack, take a 5ft step and be 20 feet away, all in one go. Every time.

Combat mobility makes the fighter the only class in the game that could cram a full attack into a standard action. Even if we just keep the second part of the ability, he can move and full attack.

Tide of battle means that he can get two standard actions in a turn, both of them, when used in conjunction with the above, can be full attacks.

This puts him way way way ahead of all the other melee classes, able to perform more than a score of feats and spells together cannot provide.

Don't get me wrong, I fully agree that a better mobility and battlefield control is required. I just thing that your suggestions, especially since they are at will, more or less act like a supercharged haste/expeditious retreat, active all the time.

[Novawurmson]

This is almost word for word what I was looking for in a Fighter fix. Excellent work.

For the nitpicking:

1. One of the biggest problems for Skill and Hard Work is that anyone can take Fighter 1 and then ignore all ability prerequisites. Even just an "add Fighter level to relevant ability modifier" goes a long way towards helping the Fighter; even one with a base score of 10 can qualify for most things at level 3.

2. I love Initial Training; flavorful and useful. The skill point increase is to 4 is a no-brainer, but needs to be called out; plus, it makes the archetypes that increase skills by +2 on par with the Ranger!

3. Weapon Aptitude is great, as is Grind the Teeth. I especially like Grind the Teeth because it gives Fighters more choices and resources to spend.

4. Heroics are great in theory, but need to be tweaked a bit. Again, I do like that they are mostly expendable abilities. Some of them might need to scale faster than others, or have prerequisites. I also like the idea of Heroics-chains like Rage Power-chains and Rogue-talent chains.

5. Have you seen the 3rd Party Pathfinder Soulknife? A lot of the Blade Skills could be ported over to Heroics,

6. More Skirmisher Ranger abilities could work, as could many Rogue talents; heck, you might just say that the Skirmisher Ranger can pick Heroics as well. Maybe make a Rogue talent that lets them pick up a Heroic.

Again, overall this is wonderful; I might tweak the specifics of Heroics, but I think Paizo should errata in the majority of your changes immediately.

[Novawurmson]

@nonsi - ToB is a perfectly acceptable 3.5 melee fix; it might as well be called the "Tome of Melee Gets Nice Things"; however, the ToB is 3.5 and generally not allowed at most tables. Having played a ToB character (a Warblade) in a PF game, I can say that the two do work well together, but the crossbreeds are rare. For the link you posted, that's not a Fighter - that's a Ruby Knight VWindicator, considered one of the best prestige classes in the game for a reason.

The real competition for a PF Fighter remake is other PF material, and Pathfinder has a much lower optimization threshold than 3.5. The current Pathfinder Fighter plays second fiddle to the Barbarian and the Ranger - two full BAB classes that can similar amounts of damage without tossing all their flexibility out the window.

Maneuverability and action economy are only part of the problem; what the Fighter needs are options. The Fighter can do damage, what he needs are reliable ways to buff/debuff/crowd control/party face/skillmonkey/etc.

[nonsi]

Regarding the feats, I see what you are saying. It is certainly a problem. Do you think that more careful wording would alleviate the problem ( something like 'Gain a the greater/improved feat after X levels'). Or do you think this is unnecessary?

If you adopt my suggestions above (see comments below), there's no need.

As for the abilities, I would be all for removing the 'once per day' thingy. I really like your suggestions. However (even if I make them optional by including them into the Heroics thingy, which you disapprove), I feel they are a bit ...unconductive to game balance.

I'm not sure what you mean by "unconductive to game balance".

Instant reaction means that the fighter always has an extra movement, in every turn.

Not for free. He has to trade his immediate action /swift action + AoOs.

He is effectively as fast as a monk, and able to split his movement. He then could do the following: Get close to someone, attack, take a 5ft step and be 20 feet away, all in one go. Every time.

1. A monk with Spring Attack can do the same.
2. You're saying this as if the Monk didn't need massive power-up as well.

Combat mobility makes the fighter the only class in the game that could cram a full attack into a standard action. Even if we just keep the second part of the ability, he can move and full attack.

Sure. The others have spells, mounts/companions, Turn Undead, Divine Grace, smiting, HiPS, Hexes, spell-channeling, maneuvers, more skill points and whatnot - all of which are better than feats.

Tide of battle means that he can get two standard actions in a turn, both of them, when used in conjunction with the above, can be full attacks.

No way. He already spent his swift action (+ move action) to gain that standard action. He doesn't have any swift action left to make this newly gained standard action into full attack, so none of his two standard actions can be used to make a full attack. It's only really useful if he wishes to do something else with this newly acquired standard action during his turn other than attack. This actually makes Tide of Battle a feature that merits improvement. Maybe allowing the fighter to retain his swift even if he'd used up his immediate action after the end of his previous turn.

This puts him way way way ahead of all the other melee classes, able to perform more than a score of feats and spells together cannot provide.

1. Ditoo on "The others have...".
2. You really don't know much about the action economy of full casters, do you? Wall, I'll try to find you something on that subject, but start with a druid with Natural Spell. Now think of what he can do with his animal companion and a bunch of Summon Nature's Ally spells. As for the Wizard - check out some of the feats in Complete Arcane to get a clue just how badly it can abuse action economy (and THIS just adds insult to injury).

[nonsi]

@nonsi - ToB is a perfectly acceptable 3.5 melee fix; it might as well be called the "Tome of Melee Gets Nice Things"; however, the ToB is 3.5 and generally not allowed at most tables. Having played a ToB character (a Warblade) in a PF game, I can say that the two do work well together, but the crossbreeds are rare. For the link you posted, that's not a Fighter - that's a Ruby Knight VWindicator, considered one of the best prestige classes in the game for a reason.

The real competition for a PF Fighter remake is other PF material, and Pathfinder has a much lower optimization threshold than 3.5. The current Pathfinder Fighter plays second fiddle to the Barbarian and the Ranger - two full BAB classes that can similar amounts of damage without tossing all their flexibility out the window.

Maneuverability and action economy are only part of the problem; what the Fighter needs are options. The Fighter can do damage, what he needs are reliable ways to buff/debuff/crowd control/party face/skillmonkey/etc.

Have you ever encountered MY Fighter Fix ?

[Novawurmson]

Have you ever encountered MY Fighter Fix ?

I actually have. It is quite a nice Fighter fix, but also significantly more complicated than most non-casting Pathfinder Classes. One of the reasons I'm particularly smitten with this bit of homebrew is that it slips on the standard Fighter like a glove, instead of creating a completely new subsystem.

It's much easier to say to my players "Make that 2 skills instead of 4, pick this, add this to your character sheet at this level, and pick one of these every 5 levels."

[ProudGrognard]

I think you misunderstood me.

I'm not sure what you mean by "unconductive to game balance".

I do not want to elevate the fighter to a Tier 1 class. I want him to have his own niche, like the paladin for example has. If I was to fix the whole of PF (as you did, which I admire as an attempt), I would try if anything to bring the Druid and Wizard down a peg.
I also want the fighter to acquire his own distinct abilities, not plunder spells and abilities of other classes. Though I believe that the earlier suggestion of Soulknife and Ranger talents is worth considering.

Not for free. He has to trade his immediate action /swift action + AoOs.

True. Again, though, it is powerful.

1. A monk with Spring Attack can do the same.
2. You're saying this as if the Monk didn't need massive power-up as well.

The monk definitely needs a fix. But I wouldn't want the fighter to steal his only good thing. Something about the Flash fighter which constantly mover around in the battlefield in jogging speed while fully attacking I find strange

Sure. The others have spells, mounts/companions, Turn Undead, Divine Grace, smiting, HiPS, Hexes, spell-channeling, maneuvers, more skill points and whatnot - all of which are better than feats.

QFT. The fighter needs something that good. I am only debating what. I will think more about this

1. Ditoo on "The others have...".
2. You really don't know much about the action economy of full casters, do you? Wall, I'll try to find you something on that subject, but start with a druid with Natural Spell. Now think of what he can do with his animal companion and a bunch of Summon Nature's Ally spells. As for the Wizard - check out some of the feats in Complete Arcane to get a clue just how badly it can abuse action economy (and THIS just adds insult to injury).

Bringing into the discussion the Wizard and the Druid does not help in any way. We all know what they can do (intimately so). We might as well talk about the CODzilla. These are not good examples to try and create a balanced class. Ia m not trying to antagonize every build to be found in any CharOp board in the internet. Just solid Tier 2 or 3 core (more or less). This is why I aim for the paladin or the inquisitor.