Inquisitor Class Feedback Request

[LewisDTC]

So after a fairly hefty rebuild of the Inquisitor in light of the suggestions below: I present the revised Inquisitor. Yes, It's probably still pretty imbalanced: but it feels better so far.

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/H1tis4lUwM

The class has generally been rewritten to focus more heavily on skills: granting either proficiency or expertise to certain skills at certain levels. I feel this helps keep the Inquisitor less powerful than a fighter or barbarian but more able to assist outside of combat. They also gain a number of spell-like abilities which they can use once per day, rather than blanket upgrades.

General Changes
- Judgement is significantly weaker: lasting one minute, requiring concentration and allowing a save at the end of each of the targets turns. It does not require a failed save to take effect however.
- Wrath has been removed.
- Vigilance added as level 2 ability: grants proficiency or expertise in perception or investigation (players choice) and allows them to spend one Tenacity to not be surprised in combat.
- Inquisitorial Technique renamed to Specialist Technique and moved to level 4 alongside ability score improvements. Re-balanced / rewritten most abilities to better fit the theme of adding versatility in combat. Still needs some work.
- Inquisitorial Equipment renamed to Inquisitorial Longcoat. No longer grants access to a list of gear: simply grants a special piece of equipment (the Inquisitorial Longcoat) and the ability to replace it if lost. The longcoat acts as studded leather armor, or can be worn over other armor to grant it +1 to AC. Also grants advantage to concealing items within it.
- Seeker of Truths replaces level 9 ability. Proficiency or expertise in Insight and can spend 1 Tenacity to cast Discern Lies once per long rest.
- Commanding Presence at level 13 grants proficiency or expertise in persuasion or intimidation. Also allows spending 1 tenacity to cast Command once per short rest.
- Unerring Instincts no longer turns Disadvantage to Advantage. Instead, for one Tenacity it can be used to turn disadvantage into a normal roll.
- Implacable not grants advantage to all saves and checks to resist or escape from being grappled, restrained or knocked prone. Does not affect movement speed.
- Multiple other minor changes.

Order of the Faithful Changes
I'm pretty content with this subclass: the intentional being that it brings a 'tanky' element to the Inquisitor and allows them to draw some similar abilities to the Paladin or Cleric - though to a lesser degree.
- Word of the Faithful replaced with Defender of the Faith. Now only grants proficiency or expertise in Religion and proficiency in heavy armor.
- Smite the Faithless now deals 2d6 additional damage instead of 2d8. Must be used before the attack roll so tenacity may be wasted if the attack misses. Damage type depends on characters alignment.
- Lynch Mob replaced with Beacon of Courage. As an action, spend one tenacity to grant half your Inquisitor level worth of temporary hit points to a number of targets equal to your proficiency modifier for one minute. As long as they have these temp hp, they are immune to fear and charm.

Order of the Witch Hunter Changes
Balancing this one is tough: I wanted to create something that helps even the playing field between magic users and non magic users - which required powerful abilities to counter the powerful spells spellcasters can use. The abilities feel powerful but only work against magic: making a witch Hunter pretty weak against dudes with axes for example. Mana burn in particularly still feels really powerful - but even then: whats burning a sorcerers level 9 spell slot and dealing ~45 damage under ideal circumstances when they can then use a 7th level spell to deal ~58 damage on a similarly failed save, potentially also raising a minion in the process?
- Knowledge is power now only provides proficiency or expertise in Arcana.
- Deny the Witch now allows spending one Tenacity to take no damage on a successful save or half on a fail: similar to evasion except costs resources and works on all types of saves caused by magic effects.
- Disruptive Judgement now only causes Cantrips to sail without a check: all other spells require a check.
- Mana Burn unchanged. As of yet.

Order of the Slayer
I'm still not sure of the flavor of this subclass: may revise it to give it a better feel. My intention was initially a Witcher-eque monster hunter, but I then felt it served a better purpose as a general-purpose 'fighting style' Inquisitor: a little bit ranger-like but without the whole woodsman / tracking thing.
- Hunters Stamina not only provides proficiency or expertise in Athletics. Considered adding a second benefit: unsure whether to also grant Acrobatics.
- Slay the Beast rewritten: can now use reaction to perform an attack of opportunity when targeted with an attack.
- Expose Weakness now costs 1 tenacity and replaces a normal attack. Grants advantage on all attacks to hit the target and crits on rolls of 19+ until beginning of your next turn.

[Argothair]

So I like the overall fluff of the class: Inquisitors are often scary and intimidating types, and sometimes they're heroes, and I think there's room for them in the D&D 5e story.

Mechanically speaking, your new class is quite similar to the role of a Paladin of Vengeance or a Cleric of War. Those are both 'tough guy' fighters who are meant to stand their ground with heavy armor and heavy weaponry while dishing out major punishment to the enemies of their order, using their special abilities to boost their damage and accuracy. I think there's *some* room left in the system for a kind of atheist Paladin who is fueled by his own inner convictions (WIS) rather than by divine assistance. As you fine-tune the class abilities here, I'd ask yourself: what makes this character useful for someone who doesn't want to play a Fighter, a Cleric, or a Paladin? What is the theme that organizes the abilities of an Inquisitor? If you had to describe the Inquisitor in abstract terms, could you? Like, a Druid is a WIS-based spellcaster with an aversion to metal and an emphasis on summoning fey creatures and transforming into wild beasts. A Monk is a WIS-based martial class with a focus on unarmed combat who uses a limited pool of resources to dodge enemies and make multiple attacks per round. An Inquisitor is...what, exactly? A WIS-based martial class who uses fancy gadgets that aren't quite considered magic weapons to terrorize his opponents? That concept still needs more work, I think.

In general, I think your power level for the Inquisitor's abilities is significantly too high. At Level 1, you get Wrath, which lets you score +1 damage on every single attack, *and* lets you absorb 1 free damage per successful attack. All you have to do is adopt a dual-wielding build, and you are now looking at a 4 Hit Point swing per turn, every turn -- you deal 2 extra damage, and you score 2 temporary HP. Compare to the Rogue's sneak attack, widely considered one of the best Level 1 abilities in the game, which gives you +1d6 (3.5 damage) on one attack per turn IF you have a way of surprising or flanking your enemy AND you use a finesse or ranged weapon -- the Rogue has a smaller HP swing, the Rogue's ability is situational, the Rogues' ability only works with certain weapons, and the Rogue has a smaller hit die. So Wrath is just straight up better than Sneak Attack, which is arguably the best Level 1 ability in the OOB game.

Your Inquisitor also get 2 uses per short rest of Judgment, at Level 1, which lets you frighten any enemy within 60 feet of you who can hear you -- and the enemy doesn't get a second saving throw until they're out of your line of sight. So that's a pretty effective way to take an enemy out of combat. Unless you want the GM to have the enemies play like metagaming munchkins, and dig a hole or something just so they can't see you anymore, an enemy who's frightened of you in any open or semi-open outdoor environments (desert, hills, ocean, grassland, etc.) or even a very large room (palace, temple, theater, etc.) will likely be totally incapacitated, at range, for the entire battle, after failing one WIS saving throw. Instead of fighting your party, they just run away until they can't see you, but by the time they lose sight of you, the combat is over. Seems over-powered. Compare to the Paladin, whose secondary Level 1 ability is that three or four times a day, he can *sense the location* of undead or evil beings within 60 feet. Being able to frighten away an enemy at 60 feet is way, way more powerful than being able to sense an enemy at 60 feet.

At Level 2, your Inquisitor gets a kind of super-charged Fighting Style that you call "Inquisitorial Technique." Deadeye gives you a +2 bonus damage to all ranged and thrown attacks, and it gives you a +5% chance of making critical hits. Compare this to the Fighter's "Dueling" ability, which gives you +2 bonus damage to melee attacks IF you attack with nothing but a single one-handed weapon. The Fighter's ability comes with a serious restriction (only one single-handed weapon) and does nothing for your criticals. The Inquisitor's ability has no restrictions -- I can dual-wield slings or crossbows and get +2 bonus damage with both ranged attacks each turn. Therefore, the Inquisitor's ability is strictly better.

At Level 3, your Inquisitor can gain Smite the Faithless, which lets you spend 1 of your 3 Tenacity points to add 2d8 radiant damage to your weapon attacks. This matches up neatly with the Paladins' 3 first-level spell slots, each of which can be burned to smite an enemy for 2d8 of extra radiant damage...but only when hitting with a melee attack. Your Smite the Faithless is stronger because it works on ranged attacks as well. To get that cool smiting ability, the Paladin has to swear a mighty oath committing himself to ideals of justice, honesty, loyalty, etc. Your Inquisitor seems to be a self-appointed authority, who can do whatever he wants and then call it the law.

I could go on like this, but I think you get my general idea: I want you to think about how your abilities compare to the abilities of other classes at similar levels. Keep an eye on which abilities have limitations or drawbacks. It's OK if *one* of your class features is somewhat stronger than the comparable feature for another class, but if almost *all* of your features are quantitatively stronger than almost every other class's features, then your class will wind up breaking or straining the balance and fairness of the game. It also winds up being less fun to play: part of what's fun for players is figuring out how to solve the puzzles they find themselves in given their unique mix of strengths and weaknesses. If you design a character with only strengths, that's less fun because there's no real challenge for the player.

In particular, I'd urge you to think about how the Inquisitor's official associations or duties limit the Inquisitor's freedom of action. Can the Inquisitor be called to account for his punishments by a superior? When and how? Is the Inquisitor too narrow-minded and self-righteous to accept certain types of feedback or to benefit from certain kinds of crimes? Which ones? How does that show up mechanically? There's a fun, excellent class hidden in this idea of yours, but in my opinion, you'll need to do some more digging to get that class out into the open.

[LewisDTC]

First of all, thank you for your time and insight. That's exactly the sort of thing I needed.

So, the theme. Yeah: I need to refine that. I have the concept in my head but I know I failed to keep it as tight as it should be. The general theme was to create a class that 'filled in' other roles where it was needed: with powerful but limited abilities in each role. I did cut the fluff parts out for the purpose of uploading here and that gives a bit more insight, but it does need some work there - got it.

At Level 1, you get Wrath, which lets you score +1 damage on every single attack, *and* lets you absorb 1 free damage per successful attack. All you have to do is adopt a dual-wielding build, and you are now looking at a 4 Hit Point swing per turn, every turn -- you deal 2 extra damage, and you score 2 temporary HP. Compare to the Rogue's sneak attack, widely considered one of the best Level 1 abilities in the game, which gives you +1d6 (3.5 damage) on one attack per turn IF you have a way of surprising or flanking your enemy AND you use a finesse or ranged weapon -- the Rogue has a smaller HP swing, the Rogue's ability is situational, the Rogues' ability only works with certain weapons, and the Rogue has a smaller hit die. So Wrath is just straight up better than Sneak Attack, which is arguably the best Level 1 ability in the OOB game.

Indeed: I think Wrath is one of the most mechanically clunky abilities: and level 1 probably isn't the best place for it. Will nerf and move it to a later level - if I can find a good way to do so. Otherwise, I'll remove it.

Your Inquisitor also get 2 uses per short rest of Judgment, at Level 1, which lets you frighten any enemy within 60 feet of you who can hear you -- and the enemy doesn't get a second saving throw until they're out of your line of sight. So that's a pretty effective way to take an enemy out of combat. Unless you want the GM to have the enemies play like metagaming munchkins, and dig a hole or something just so they can't see you anymore, an enemy who's frightened of you in any open or semi-open outdoor environments (desert, hills, ocean, grassland, etc.) or even a very large room (palace, temple, theater, etc.) will likely be totally incapacitated, at range, for the entire battle, after failing one WIS saving throw. Instead of fighting your party, they just run away until they can't see you, but by the time they lose sight of you, the combat is over. Seems over-powered. Compare to the Paladin, whose secondary Level 1 ability is that three or four times a day, he can *sense the location* of undead or evil beings within 60 feet. Being able to frighten away an enemy at 60 feet is way, way more powerful than being able to sense an enemy at 60 feet.

I based the ability off the 3rd level 'Fear' spell: with the exception that it only affects a single target as opposed to everything in a 30ft cone. Perhaps I overestimated the power of this: though it does emphasis just how powerful spellcasters are in contrast to other classes. Allowing a save every tun regardless seems to be too much of a nerf though, so I'll need to think about how to de-power this without making it useless.

At Level 2, your Inquisitor gets a kind of super-charged Fighting Style that you call "Inquisitorial Technique." Deadeye gives you a +2 bonus damage to all ranged and thrown attacks, and it gives you a +5% chance of making critical hits. Compare this to the Fighter's "Dueling" ability, which gives you +2 bonus damage to melee attacks IF you attack with nothing but a single one-handed weapon. The Fighter's ability comes with a serious restriction (only one single-handed weapon) and does nothing for your criticals. The Inquisitor's ability has no restrictions -- I can dual-wield slings or crossbows and get +2 bonus damage with both ranged attacks each turn. Therefore, the Inquisitor's ability is strictly better.

Fair does. Deadeye in particular could do with an overhaul. These abilities were intended to be somewhat more powerful than fighting styles, though the idea was also to expand the Inquisitors options rather than just giving straight upgrades, so yeah- I wasn't as successful as I would have liked there.

At Level 3, your Inquisitor can gain Smite the Faithless, which lets you spend 1 of your 3 Tenacity points to add 2d8 radiant damage to your weapon attacks. This matches up neatly with the Paladins' 3 first-level spell slots, each of which can be burned to smite an enemy for 2d8 of extra radiant damage...but only when hitting with a melee attack. Your Smite the Faithless is stronger because it works on ranged attacks as well. To get that cool smiting ability, the Paladin has to swear a mighty oath committing himself to ideals of justice, honesty, loyalty, etc. Your Inquisitor seems to be a self-appointed authority, who can do whatever he wants and then call it the law.

My reasoning here was that Smite the Faithless never scaled like a Paladins (no spending a 4th level spell slot to deal 5d8 damage) and that Paladins also had the option to use their spell slots for stuff like casting spells. Completely glossed over the fact that Tenacity also does other cool stuff in my head though. May reduce this from 2d8 to 2d6 to reflect the fact that their smiting isn't as powerful as a Paladins.

In particular, I'd urge you to think about how the Inquisitor's official associations or duties limit the Inquisitor's freedom of action. Can the Inquisitor be called to account for his punishments by a superior? When and how? Is the Inquisitor too narrow-minded and self-righteous to accept certain types of feedback or to benefit from certain kinds of crimes? Which ones? How does that show up mechanically? There's a fun, excellent class hidden in this idea of yours, but in my opinion, you'll need to do some more digging to get that class out into the open.

Yeah that's something that I liked the idea of: I just wasn't certain that it should be written in the rules. In 5E it feels like paladins, warlocks and so on don't have dedicated rules for them going against what their god wants - it's just expected of the DM to figure that out.

So: yeah. Points taken in stride. That will really help me with revising things for my v2.0 version: many thanks again!

[JNAProductions]

Why does it get two strong saves?

Judgement doesn't require concentration and lasts an entire hour. Fear lasts one minute and requires concentration, as well as only being available from 5th level onward. I agree, this is FAR too good.

Wrath is also way too good, as was addressed earlier. I notice it was dropped to half proficiency bonus-I'd still consider it too good, since it does (on a dual-wielding build) a good chunk of SA damage on a better chassis and gives THP.

Everything but Accessible Armory is too good. Just give them regular fighting styles.

Is Inquisitorial Order gained at level 2 or 3? It doesn't say.

Smite The Faithless is too good.

Divine Purpose is probably too good-way too easy to ping-pong back up from dying.

Deny The Witch is too good. Compare to Indomitable, and notice how yours is many times better.

Slay The Beast is too good.

Expose Weakness is way too good.

Null Bolt feels too good.

Elixir Of Zealous Wrath is too good-regaining Tenacity should NOT be that easy.

Overall, definitely too powerful. THAT BEING SAID! I think you're a smart person, you can probably see how to nerf it down to appropriate levels. Should you need more assistance in what exactly they should be brought down to, let me know, but right now, I think you just need to workshop it down a bit.

[LewisDTC]

Alrighty then: after a fairly hefty redesign, here is the revised version of the Inquisitor. Linked to Homebrewery and everything: as I have now earned that privilege :p

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/H1tis4lUwM

I'm well aware that there are still balance issues, but was mainly wondering:

- Does this feel like a step in the right direction, balance wise?
- Does the class feel like it has a theme, rather than just being a collection of abilities with little to no coherency?
- Have I missed some absurd potential exploit that would hopelessly break the game?

I've also edited the original post to reflect the new version of the Inquisitor.

Many thanks in advance: it's only through the advice I got here that I managed to fix it up this much so far.

[Llama513]

I will take a closer look later, I'm in the process of workig on a few other projects and life is fairly busy right now, but I have a inquisitor class of my own that I made, http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ry-M8IV4g, feel free to take a look at it for inspiration

[LewisDTC]

Looks good: It's quite interesting how similar yet how different the two are at the same time. I'll keep a note of it: will no doubt be useful for drawing inspiration as I work on mine. Many thanks!

[Argothair]

- Does this feel like a step in the right direction, balance wise?

Absolutely. As far as I can tell, this *is* balanced, at least as far as the core class goes. I'd be happy to let a player use this class in a game I was GM'ing. Well done.

Some of the Order Abilities could still use a little tweaking. I think "Deny the Witch" should give you evasion against INT-driven arcane spells, and maybe against CHA-driven warlock spells, but definitely not against WIS-driven divine spells. An Inquisitor isn't anti-magic full stop; they're just a bit chauvinist about their particular pantheon. If you have an Inquisitor of Thor and then a Cleric of Loki comes along and casts some ice magic on you, it doesn't really make thematic sense that you could just be like, "Nah, I don't believe in that stuff; it has no power over me." And, mechanically, evasion against all spells of all kinds is somewhat too powerful.

I'd like to see Disruptive Judgment trigger a WIS save *by the spellcaster*, not by you. Higher-WIS casters should be better able to resist your disruptive judgment. Otherwise it seems fine.

For the Slayer's Swift Judgment, I'd require the character to spend an additional Tenacity in order to rush forward 15 feet without triggering attacks of opportunity. 15 feet of movement and a "Frighten" spell with no save is a *lot* for a bonus action.

Finally, the Tenets for the Order of the Faithful seem a bit strict; you should be able to flee from a battle if you want, as long as it's not a battle touching on your faith. Instead of "you must uphold the values of your god," I might say something like "you must never publicly criticize or disagree with the values of your god." I like the idea of Inquisitors as being moderately faithful characters who are expected to strengthen a church even at the cost of straying from some of the church's tenets. Oh, and the Slayer needs some Tenets, but you knew that. Maybe something like "The only mercy is death: when you have wounded a dangerous beast, you must pursue it until you have utterly lost the trail or until you have seen the beast's dead body, rather than leaving it to potentially recover and shed innocent blood." Also, maybe "the trappings of civilization: you shun the products of beasts to preserve yourself from the symbol of their beastly decadence; you may not wear, carry, or benefit from any furs, hides, or leathers, and you may not eat meat or fish unless it has been thoroughly cooked."

- Does the class feel like it has a theme, rather than just being a collection of abilities with little to no coherency?

Yes, I definitely feel the theme -- the Longcoat is very themey (and interesting in the way you can use it either instead of or in addition to regular armor), the 4th level fighting styles all feel like they're giving you some tactical options that would be appropriate for a character who's determined to persevere and defeat the unrighteous, and I like the idea of having evildoers be frightened of the Inquisitor.

- Have I missed some absurd potential exploit that would hopelessly break the game?

I think the riskiest ability here is Mass Judgement, for the Level 6 Faithful Inquisitor. It's not unreasonable to expect to have a WIS of 18 by Level 6, giving you a +4 modifier...so then if you multiclass into Barbarian or Rogue, you could get an ability that lets you act during the Surprise Round -- and then at the start of every combat, you spend 1 Tenacity to Frighten most of the enemy party before the enemies even get a chance to act. That seems overly powerful for, e.g., a Level 8 character, and I could see a player using it in 90%+ of combats and having it get tiresome and forcing you to adjust the difficulty level of your monsters in order to keep up. But, no, I don't see anything that would hopelessly break the game.

You might want to be clear that the various skill boosts you can collect give you "proficiency, or, if you already have proficiency, expertise." A rules lawyer might interpret your language about "double your proficiency bonus" to try to stack the doubling with an already-existing expertise to get a quadruple bonus, which could theoretically be game-breaking in some contexts. Not essential, though; I think it's clear enough what your intent is.

[Arkhios]

Right now I'm too tired to give any meaningful feedback, but (since Llama "shamelessly" promoted his Inquisitor) maybe take a look at my Inquisitor for further inspiration (link in my signature), even though it's not exactly a full class. From my point of view, it didn't need to be, but that's just me

[Llama513]

Interesting spin to go non-caster.

I will be putting some questions and suggestions down below:

1) Why don't they have the option for proficiency in Religion?

2) Why not have vigilance simply give the Expertise affect even if they didn't have proficiency before, it makes more sense for them to be experts in at least one of those two skills?

3) I would make the specialist techniques cost tenacity, since they are pretty powerful, I would also possibly set a level requirement for Deliberate strike so that you can't take it until you have extra attack, then again you would only have it for one level before you get extra attack so that is up to you

4) Seeker of truths should just give expertise in investigation, also discern lies is not a spell anymore, what you are looking for is something more akin to zone of truth

5) Willful ignorance is interesting, but I think it is a bit to situational for such a high level ability, maybe have them get the one truth and advantage on charm affects or something like that

6) Commanding presence once again just give expertise in the skill chosen

7) Okay I see why you didn't give them religion at the beginning, but that feels weird, as inquisitors are warriors of the church, similar to paladins, just more extreme in their methods

8) Smite the Faithless, no Force Damage, I would have it be Radiant damage for Neutral, and Good, which is the standard for 5e, and Necrotic for Evil

9) Mass judgement is a little strong for level 6, what I would do is set it to a once per short or long rest, because having that at will is too strong, that or have it cost one tenacity for each creature affected up to your Wisdom modifier

10) Not sure on Beacon of courage, I need to look at my players handbook to check Paladin

11) Divine purpose is worded wierdly, but if I understand what it is saying when you make a successful death save you can spend tenacity and hit dice to stand up with a decent amount of health, which feels really powerful, but there isn't really anything that I can think of that does something like that, so I'm not entirely sure, so just keep an eye on that ability.

12) Deny the witch is powerful, 3rd level Evasion, yes it costs a point but that is still a 7th level ability at level 3, too strong

13) Disruptive Judgement needs to cost more tenacity, I would say you have to spend a number of tenacity equal to the level of the spell, which you don't know same as with counter spell, so you have to take a risk as to what you want to spend

14) Mana burn needs to cost more, one point per level of the spell slot burned

15) Nullification Zone needs to cost a point

16) Be carful with Expose Weakness, it is too powerful right now, it is a tricky ability to balance

You definitely have a good base set up, work on fixing your spelling and grammar stuff to make it clearer what abilities do. I would take a look at the Archetypes and try to bring them close in line with each other, as at the moment, Witch Hunter is by far the strongest, followed by Faithful, and Slayer lags behind.

[thegreatone5224]

Slay the Beast seems a little strange to me. I thought you only got on reaction per round? If that is the case, would it end up just being a normal opportunity attack?

[LewisDTC]

Slay the Beast seems a little strange to me. I thought you only got on reaction per round? If that is the case, would it end up just being a normal opportunity attack?

It allows you to make an opportunity attack in reaction to a creature attacking you: whereas you normally only make one if something moves away from you without disengaging. It's effectively a counterattack.