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    DracoDei's Avatar

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    Question Build suggestions needed for homebrew base class I am creating.

    Greetings from the Homebrew section!

    The situation:

    I have been working on a fairly complicated base-class which I call the Grace-Gift.

    Although I am currently playtesting this class, we haven't gotten into combat yet, and I wanted some perspectives for the broader 1st to 20th level progression, rather than just focused in on 6th level where we are in the campaign.

    I have come to the roleplay section to see what people can do with optimizing a particular aspect of this class, namely its ability to deal AoOs. Everything about it you should need for the questions I am asking should be in this post. If anything relevant to the question I shall be asking seems to be missing from this post, please tell me. If you just want to look at the whole class then follow the link in my signature. EDIT: It is kinda a mess at the moment though.

    The class has more to do than make AoOs, but almost all of its other abilities just require remaining close to its allies to use some swift-action SLAs. This means that we can safely ignore what is happening on the character's turn for the most part, as well as the question of the overall balance of the class.

    The class gets three abilities that are directly relevant to certain types of AoOs(listed below), an initiative boost to be able to position itself (and cast its swift-action buffs on allies) before enemies can react, plus many bonus feat slots which can be used (along with general feat slots) to take a wide range of bonus feats, including class-specific feats, that aid AoOs. This is described in more detail below.

    Actually most of the bonus feats and class specific feats are about things other than AoOs, but I have cut those out of this post to keep it focused.

    Assume light armor and maxed ranks in Tumble, which is useful for getting into position for setting up AoOs, especially on spellcasters.

    Assume reasonable investment into increasing size and strength, with the goal of increasing load brackets (this class gets a class feature that depends on carrying capacity). Note that a continuous function item of Enlarge Person (probably a belt), costs 4,000 GP.

    This class is technically a 1/2 BAB class, which matters for selecting some non-bonus feats. As far as actually making the sorts of AoOs I am most focused on, this class basically becomes a full-BAB class as of 2nd level.

    This class has a d12 hit-die, which is relevant mostly because one of their abilities emulates the vicious weapon enhancement.

    This class has all Good saves, Divine Grace*, and a SMALL (CL +5) amount of spell resistance starting at level 11. This is most relevant because it means that casting a spell within your reach aimed only at you is less of an issue. Note especially the effects in making the Lesser Mage-Bane feat more useful.
    *(Add your charisma bonus to your saves for anyone who has forgotten).

    This class is primarily Charisma based, with strength the next most useful for the classes overall features, and Constitution running third.

    Believe it or not this class actually slots in most directly for a cleric in the traditional Fighter/Cleric/Rogue/Wizard party. This means that one should assume that a Full BAB and/or ToB type is around for potential smashing of anyone you stop in their tracks/trip. Grace-Gifts are very poor at in-combat healing (except, perhaps, via the Protector's Reward feat).

    My Questions on Builds (will repeat at end for anyone who gets lost):
    What feats should be taken(probably assuming Human)? Which feat slots can be most cheaply sacrificed to take other class bonus feats (which exist at every gradation from I to IX, I just have omitted them here for clarity)? Which feat slots, both general and class bonus are most critical for developing a good AoO-based build? Is a Spiked Chain worth the feat investment?

    Getting away from AoOs for a moment, but based on many of the same class features, how good of a feat is GET OFF OF THEM!!! looking to be? At what level should it be taken, if at all?

    Speaking of Spiked Chains what should the progression of weapon(s) owned be, including materials, and enhancements? What are the best choices for the first level weapon proficiency selection?

    What picks should be made for Enhanced Defensive Strike?

    When do strength and reach-increasing options such as having the party arcanist cast Bull's Strength or Enlarge Person, getting potions and/or continuous items with functions related to such spells become most necessary?

    What classes could be combined with Grace-Gift to produce a good AoO build, and how much would such multiclasses rely on Defensive Strike/Enhanced Defensive Strike?

    Is there anything even in the running for best race for this aspect of the build compared to human? If so, what?


    Table of Relevant Abilities by Level
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    {table=head]Level|Alternate Attack Bonus*|Damage Bonus |Damage Reduction etc. Bypassed|Relevant Non-Feat Class Features|Feats
    1st|
    +0
    |
    +1
    |
    -
    |Defensive Strike(Damage), Swift to Protect| Bonus Feat(I), (General Feat), (Human Bonus feat if Human)

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    -
    |Defensive Strike(To-Hit)|Bonus Feat(I)

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    Magic
    |Enhanced Defensive Strike(Magic)| Bonus Feat(I or II), (General Feat)

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    Magic
    | |Bonus Feat(I or II)

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    Magic

    6th|
    +6
    |
    +9
    |
    Magic
    | |(General Feat)

    7th|
    +7
    |
    +10
    |
    Magic + 1 Option
    |Enhanced Defensive Strike(1 alignment, Ghost-Touch, and/or Vicious])

    8th|
    +8
    |
    +12
    |
    Magic + 1 Option

    9th|
    +9
    |
    +13
    |
    Magic + 1 Option
    | |Bonus Feat(I to V), (General Feat)

    10th|
    +10
    |
    +20
    |
    Magic + 1 Option

    11th|
    +11
    |
    +22
    |
    Adamantine + Magic + 1 Option
    |Enhanced Defensive Strike(Adamantine)|Bonus Feat(I to VI)

    12th|
    +12
    |
    +24
    |
    Adamantine + Magic + 1 Option

    13th|
    +13
    |
    +26
    |
    Adamantine + Magic + 1 Option
    |Mobile Defender

    14th|
    +14
    |
    +28
    |
    Adamantine + Magic + 1 Option
    | |Bonus Feat(I to VII)

    15th|
    +15
    |
    +30
    |
    Adamantine + Magic + 2 Options
    |Enhanced Defensive Strike(2 alignments, Ghost-Touch, and/or Vicious]) |(General Feat)

    16th|
    +16
    |
    +48
    |
    Adamantine + Magic + 2 Options

    17th|
    +17
    |
    +51
    |
    Adamantine + Magic + 2 Options
    | |Bonus Feat(I to IX)

    18th|
    +18
    |
    +54
    |
    Adamantine + Magic + 2 Options
    | |(General Feat)


    19th|
    +19
    |
    +57
    |
    Adamantine + Magic + 2 Options
    | |Bonus Feat(I to IX)

    20th|
    +20
    |
    +60
    |
    Adamantine + Magic + 2 Options
    [/table]
    *Don't forget to add your Charisma Bonus to-hit!


    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    The Grace-gift is proficient with one type of simple melee weapon OR with one type of melee weapon that naturally deals subdual damage(such as a whip or sap, or one-handed/two-handed versions of a sap) OR with nets. They are also proficient with Bolas, but ONLY when making trip attacks with them rather than attempting to deal damage.

    If they pick nets, then, for purpose of threatened areas for attacks of opportunity they treat nets as a melee weapon with reach. Thus they can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe. They do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making an attack of opportunity of their own with a net.

    They are proficient with light armor but not with shields.

    <SNIPPING stuff about how they suffer ACF in anything heavier than light armor>
    Class Ability Descriptions

    Bonus Feats:
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    At various levels the grace-gift gains a bonus feat from the following lists. When taken in this way they do not need to meet the character level, ability score, base attack, maneuver/stance knowledge, or saving throw prerequisites of that feat. Prerequisites that take the form of other feats are required only for feats that are also on one of these lists. For example: the Improved Blocker feat requires the Combat Reflexes and Blocker feats, but, if taken in this manner does not require a +10 BAB, nor the Combat Expertise feat. They DO have to meet any class level requirements. At first and second class levels only feats from List I may be selected. At later levels access to more lists is granted.
    List I:
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    Blind-fight
    Dodge((Relevant for getting Mobility, which may in turn be relevant for moving into position for better AoOs of your own.))
    Evasive Reflexes(ToB) ((I wouldn't THINK this would be relevant to the AoO dealing side of things, but Welknair included it in his Grace-Gift character for a real-life campaign. I guess it goes well with the boosted Combat Reflexes.))
    Sidestep Charge(Requires the Dodge. Special: If taken as a Grace-Gift bonus feat the bonuses to Defensive Strike/Enhanced Defense Strike do NOT apply to this attack.)
    Skill Focus(Tumble)
    Stand Still

    List II (Grace-gift level 3):
    Blocker(Requires Combat Reflexes.)
    Combat Reflexes(Special: A grace-gift who takes this feat as a grace-gift bonus feat may substitute Charisma for Dexterity for the purposes of determining how many attacks of opportunity he may make per round)
    Defensive Trip*
    Enhanced Material Defense*
    GET OFF OF THEM!!!* ((This feat in indigo to represent that it isn't about AoOs per se, although it is based on the same class abilities.))
    Mage Slayer, Lesser*

    List III (Grace gift level 5):
    Combat Expertise(SPECIAL: When taken as a Grace-Gift bonus feat this feat requires 5 ranks in Tumble)
    Improved Disarm(Requires Combat Expertise.)
    Protector's Reward*

    List IV (Grace gift level 7):
    Anchoring Defense*
    Cloak Dance((Relevant for the mobile fighting style that MAY be involved in getting into place for your AoOs.))
    Energy Defense*

    List V (Grace-gift level 9):
    Improved Blocker(Requires Blocker.)

    List VI (Grace gift level 11):
    ((Nothing Relevant to this discussion here.))

    List VII (Grace gift level 13):
    ((Nothing Relevant to this discussion here.))


    List VIII (Grace gift level 15):
    Improved Mobile Defender*
    Strike Anything Defensively*

    List IX (Grace gift level 17):
    ((Nothing Relevant to this discussion here.))

    *These feats are new and specific to the class.


    Swift to Protect(Ex):
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    Before initiative is rolled a grace-gift may declare he is using this ability. He gains a bonus to his initiative equal to his levels in this class, but during his first turn in that combat may only take movement actions, draw one or more weapons, and/or use the abilities of this class or grace-gift feats that involve action use OTHER than GET OFF OF THEM!!!.

    When acting during a surprise round a Grace-Gift may take a swift action instead of a standard or move action.


    Defensive Strike(Ex):
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    The grace-gift who made no offensive actions* during his previous turn (if any) adds his class level to the damage he inflicts on attacks of opportunity that are NOT during his turn, and which are provoked by:
    1. movement that would not take the target of the attack of opportunity further away from all of the grace-gifts allies
    2. attacks (including but not limited to spell-casting) targeted at the grace-gifts allies.

    *In this case "offensive actions" does NOT only include direct action such as striking with a weapon, casting a spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe but also indirect action, including, but not limited to: summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth.

    At 3rd level, when making such attacks of opportunity, the grace-gift counts his BAB from this class as being equal to his levels in it for purposed of determining his total attack bonus, and adds his charisma BONUS to all attack rolls for such attacks of opportunity. (For those of you who get weirded out by BAB changing, replace that part with a (class level +1)/2 bonus to such attack rolls... it works out to the same thing).

    At 6th level the grace-gift's bonus to damage on such attacks of opportunity increases to 1.5 times his class level.

    At 10th level the grace-gift's bonus to damage on such attacks of opportunity increases to twice his class level.

    At 16th level the grace-gift's bonus to damage on such attacks of opportunity increases to three times his class level.


    Enhanced Defensive Strike (Su):
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    At 3rd level a grace-gifts defensive strikes are empowered by divine energy. All his defensive strikes* are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and/or regeneration and for striking incorporeal creatures.

    At 7th level the grace gift may select one alignment component that he has (Chaotic, Evil, Good, or Lawful) to add to all his defensive strikes* for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction, regeneration etc. Alternatively he may elect to treat his defensive strikes as if they were made with a ghost touch weapon for purposes of determining if the attack hits/is possible in the first place. As a third alternative he may elect to gain the option to add 2d6 damage to his defensive strikes, at the cost of taking 1d6 damage himself whenever he uses this option (cf the vicious weapon enhancement and stacking with it). In any of these cases this choice is permanent once made. In the case of Ghost Touch with a net, on a successful AoO the effect lingers until the target is no longer in the net.

    At 11th level all defensive strikes made by the grace-gift treated as if made with an adamantine weapon for purposes of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction, regeneration etc.

    At 15th level the grace-gift selects an additional alignment component, the ghost touch effect, or vicious effect to add to all his defensive strikes. The same effect may NOT be selected twice. Once again, this choice is permanent once made.

    *A defensive strike is defined as any attack that qualifies for the bonuses of the defensive strike class ability.


    Mobile Defender(Ex): NOTE THAT THIS REQUIRES THE BLOCKER FEAT, WHICH HAS PREREQUISITES, TO BE OF ANY USE.
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    At 13th a grace-gift may use a modified version of the total defense action as a swift action. In this case no bonus to AC is provided, however the grace-gift may still make attacks of opportunity as provided by the Blocker and Improved Blocker feats as if he had spent a full-round action on total defense, provided he has the feat(s) in question. However, if you use this option, any movement you make via those feats before the start of your next turn counts against your movement for said next turn, thus requiring you to expend at least a five-foot step, and quite possibly a move action, or even (in very rare cases) a double-move action.


    New Feats
    Standard Format Index of New Feats
    Anchoring Defense
    Blocker
    ---Improved Blocker
    Defensive Trip
    Energy Defense
    Enhanced Material Defense
    ---Strike Anything Defensively
    GET OFF OF THEM!!! ((This feat in indigo to represent that it isn't about AoOs per se, although it is based on the same class abilities.))
    Improved Mobile Defender
    Mage-Slayer, Lesser
    Protector's Reward

    The Feats Themselves
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    Anchoring Defense [Grace-Gift]
    The energy of your protection manifests a bit more obviously than most grace-gifts.
    Prerequisites: Enhanced Defensive Strike with Ghost Touch.
    Benefits: When you hit an incorporeal creature with a defensive strike, it must make a will save with a DC of 10+1/2 grace-gift level+charisma modifier. If it fails it loses the incorporeal quality for 1 round(1d4 rounds?). If it is currently at least partially within a solid object it is shunted out to the nearest open space that can fully contain it, taking 1d6 damage per 5 feet so traveled.
    Special: A character with at least 7 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. You may take this feat more than once, each time after the first, the DC of the save increases by 3.

    Blocker [Fighter]
    "You shall not pass!"
    Prerequisites:
    Expertise AND Combat Reflexes
    BAB +3 OR Grace-Gift level 3
    Benefits: For the purposes of the Total Defense action, you count as having 5 ranks in the tumble skill. When you take the full defense action, your ability to make attacks of opportunity is not negated, and you gain +2 to hit with such attacks. The DC of tumble checks to avoid provoking an AoO from you is increased by 5.
    If you do not take a 5 foot step on your turn while using total defense as a full-round action, then once per round you may take a 5 foot step as an immediate action, before an action that would provoke an attack of opportunity from your new position, but not your old one is resolved. You must then make the attack of opportunity in question. If the provoking action is movement, the provoking character may negate the attack immediately after you move by stopping short in such a way that he is within your threatened area at the end of the move, but would not have provoked an AoO if you had started his turn in the square you now occupy.
    Moving in this way does not break a Dwarven Defender's defensive stance, nor Stone Dragon Stances, nor a Deepstone Sentinel's Mountain Fortress stance, nor any other similar stance or ability.
    Normal: You may not make attacks of opportunity in a round you took full defense and may not move as a reaction to create an attack of opportunity.
    Special: A fighter or character with at least 3 levels of Grace-Gift may take this feat as one of their bonus feats from their respective class.
    Improved Blocker [Fighter]
    "NONE of you shall pass!"
    Prerequisites:
    Expertise, Combat Reflexes, AND Blocker
    BAB +10 OR Grace-Gift level 9
    Benefits: When using the Blocker Feat, you may may move a total distance up to your speed in 5' steps each round (as measured from the end of one your turns to the start of the next), but only as provided by the Blocker feat (plus a single 5' step on your turn) and only as long as you have AoO's remaining. This means that you may only take a single 5' step each time someone moves in such a way as to activate the Blocker feat.
    movement for said next turn, thus requiring you to expend at least a five-foot step, and quite possibly a move action, or even (in very rare cases) a double-move action.
    Moving in this way does not break a Dwarven Defender's defensive stance, nor Stone Dragon Stances, nor a Deepstone Sentinel's Mountain Fortress stance, nor any other similar stance or ability no matter how many 5' steps are taken.

    Special: A fighter of chacter with at least 9 levels of Grace-Gift may take this feat as one of his bonus feats.

    Defensive Trip [Grace-Gift]
    "Hold It!"
    Prerequisites: Defensive Strike class feature granting a to-hit bonus, Grace-Gift level 3
    Benefits: If you are unarmed, or if you can make trip attacks with your weapon, you may substitute trip attempts for attacks of opportunity provoked by movement. You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent in this way while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent. These benefits do not stack with the benefits of the Improved Trip feat and you do not get a free attack on an opponent you successfully trip in this way, even if you also have the Improved Trip feat.
    Normal: You can't make trip attempts as attacks of opportunity and trip attempts provoke attacks of opportunity.
    Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

    Energy Defense [Grace-Gift]((I mostly just need verification that this feat is basically useless as far as what it does for AoOs.))
    The energy of your protection manifests a bit more obviously than most grace-gifts.
    Prerequisites: Enhanced Defensive Strike with an alignment type.
    Benefits: Each time you make a defensive strike, you may change the bonus damage granted by your defensive strike class feature to one of the following that your defensive strikes are aligned to by your enhanced defensive strike class feature. Pick one at the time you take this feat. This can't be changed but you can take this feat again to add another option.
    • Acid, halve amount of bonus damage when using this option(Evil aligned strike)
    • Cold(Lawful aligned strike)
    • Fire(Evil aligned strike)
    • Lightning(Good aligned strike)
    • Non-lethal, this applies to all damage dealt by the strike, not just the bonus damage(Good aligned strike)
    • Sonic, halve amount of bonus damage when using this option(Chaotic aligned strike)

    More importantly, you gain also gain resistance to the damage type equal to twice your grace-gift level(or four times your grace-gift level in DR/lethal damage if you gain the ability to deal subdual damage via this feat). You may use a swift, move, or standard action to transfer this resistance or damage reduction to one ally within a number of feet equal to 10+Your Grace-Gift level, rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5. This transfer lasts for one round.
    Normal: Your bonus damage from defensive strike is the same type as when you are not making a defensive strike.
    Special: A character with at least 7 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. You may take this feat more than once, each time select a different damage type that you qualify for your bonus damage.

    Enhanced Material Defense [Grace-Gift]
    Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 3, Enhanced Defensive Strike class feature.
    Benefit: Select one(two?) material which a two-handed weapon for a medium sized may be made of for an additional cost of no more than 2,000 gp. When making defensive strikes your weapon counts as being made of that SPECIFIC material for by-passing damage reduction, regeneration, and other such defenses, or for special purposes involving a specific material (for instance if you have some sort of Vampire Hunter PrC that lets you stake vampires during AoOs on a sufficiently good roll, you might wish to select "wood" so that you can stake with metal swords and other piercing weapons of appropriate length). This is IN ADDITION to any other material(s) it is made of or counts as being made of. In no case does this allow your weapon to acquire a trait that could be acquired via enhanced defensive strike, such as flame-touched iron weapons counting as [Good]. In any case other common (and valid) choices include cold iron, alchemical silver(noting there is no penalty to damage with this option), Byeshk, or Targath.
    Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. This feat may be taken more than once. Each time you select a new (pair of) material(s).

    Strike Anything Defensively [Grace-Gift]
    Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 15, Enhanced Defensive Strike(Adamantine and two special features) class feature, Enhanced Material Defense emulating at least two different materials ((Give rebates on any excess instances?))
    Benefit: Your defensive strikes ignore all damage reduction.
    Special: A character with at least 15 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


    GET OFF OF THEM! [Grace-Gift]
    Attempting to overwhelm your teammates with numbers is... unwise.
    Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 3, Defensive Strike class feature granting to-hit bonus.
    Benefit: At its most basic level you may use a full-round action to make a single melee attack on each enemy that is within your threatened area that has at least one ally (NOT COUNTING YOURSELF) within its threatened area and has made a melee attack against at least one of your allies (AGAIN, NOT COUNTING YOURSELF) since your last turn (or the start of combat if it is your first turn). These attacks are made at your full BAB and gain the to-hit bonus from Defensive Strike and half of the damage bonus of Defensive Strike. If you have the Enhanced Defensive Strike ability these attacks also have all the benefits of that ability to which your class levels and feats entitle you.

    When you use the GET OFF OF THEM! feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

    If your grace-gift level is at least 6 when using this ability you may instead make these attacks as a standard action.

    If your grace-gift level is at least 11 and you are actually using a full round action to use this ability, then you make two such attacks on each such enemy.

    If your grace-gift level is at least 16 then you may make two such attacks on each such enemy as a standard action.

    Remember, you can not use this feat on your turn in any combat in which you use Swift to Protect.
    ((Remove limit about having attacked an ally in melee within the last round? It adds complication, and isn't very proactive... maybe have this cause a -2 or -4 to the Grace-Gift's AC for one round to make up for it.))

    Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


    Improved Mobile Defender [Grace-gift]
    Even at your most overwhelmed your protection does not flag.
    Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Blocker, Improved Blocker, Grace-Gift level 15, Mobile Defender Class feature.
    Benefits: For purposes of the Blocker and Improved Blocker feats you may take Total Defense as a free action at the end of your turn. The effects for those feats is as if you had spend a full-round action taking Total Defense. However if you use this option, any movement you make via those feats before the start of your next turn counts against your movement for said next turn, thus requiring you to expend at least a five-foot step, and quite possibly a move action, or even (in very rare cases) a double-move action.
    Special: A character with at least 15 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

    Mage-Slayer, Lesser [Grace-gift]
    It is difficult to hurt your friends with magic when you are on the job.
    Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 3, Spellcraft 4 ranks
    Benefits: Spellcasters you threaten may not cast spells that target one or more of your allies defensively, (they automatically fail their concentration checks to do so), but they are aware that they cannot cast such spells defensively while being threatened by a character with this feat. This includes harmful spells that target an area (such as Wail of the Banshee, Fireball, or Web) occupied by one or more of your allies. Remember you do not count as your own ally.
    Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. Note that unlike the Mage-Slayer feat this does not reduce your own caster level.


    Protector's Reward [Grace-Gift](This feat is a rough draft at this time, and I do not consider it ready to play without further consideration. If I had to guess I would say that it is UNDER powered.)
    After much self-sacrifice for your allies to protect them from their enemies you have been granted a token amount of balancing to the karmic scales.
    Prerequisites: Defensive Strike class feature granting at least a +4? bonus to damage.
    Benefits: Each time you deal damage with a defensive strike or GET OFF HIM! to a true foe who presents a true threat (both as determined by the GM) to you or your allies add whichever of the following is the SMALLEST to a running tally:
    • The amount of damage you dealt
    • Your damage bonus from Defensive Strike for that specific attack (so this will be smaller if you are using GET OFF HIM!).
    • The subjectís hit points prior to being struck, +10 if the target had a constitution score. In other words the minimum amount of damage that would be required to kill/destroy the target.

    At the start of each of your turns, and at the end of combat, you are healed for one quarter(one half?) of the amount of the tally and the running tally is then reduced to zero. Hitpoints in excess of your maximum gained at the start of your turn are instead gained as temporary hitpoints which last until the end of combat. Excess hitpoints gained at the end of combat are lost.
    This is a supernatural ability.
    Special: A character with at least 5? levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.
    ((Change this from 1/4 to 1/2... or maybe 1/3? Anyway, looking at "Aura of Triumph" this doesn't look so powerful.))




    My Questions on Builds (Repeated from near start of this post):
    What feats should be taken(probably assuming Human)? Which feat slots can be most cheaply sacrificed to take other class bonus feats (which exist at every gradation from I to IX, I just have omitted them here for clarity)? Which feat slots, both general and class bonus are most critical for developing a good AoO-based build? Is a Spiked Chain worth the feat investment?

    Getting away from AoOs for a moment, but based on many of the same class features, how good of a feat is GET OFF OF THEM!!! looking to be? When should it be taken, if at all?

    Speaking of Spiked Chains what should the progression of weapon(s) owned be, including materials, and enhancements? What are the best choices for the first level weapon proficiency selection?

    What picks should be made for Enhanced Defensive Strike?

    When do strength and reach-increasing options such as having the party arcanist cast Bull's Strength or Enlarge Person, getting potions and/or continuous items with functions related to such spells become most necessary?

    What classes could be combined with Grace-Gift to produce a good AoO build, and how much would such multiclasses rely on Defensive Strike/Enhanced Defensive Strike?

    Is there anything even in the running for best race for this aspect of the build compared to human? If so, what?
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2012-10-21 at 01:46 PM.
    [Public Service Announcement]P.E.A.C.H stands for Please Examine And Critique Honestly[/Public Service Announcement]
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    Extended Signature
    My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

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    Default Re: Build suggestions needed for homebrew base class I am creating.

    Look, I know it is a lot to take in, but at the end of the day it is just an AoO build.

    Help please?
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    Default Re: Build suggestions needed for homebrew base class I am creating.

    You might get more responses in the actual homebrew forum
    "The icy cold fingers of reason have choked the life out of this thread and despite all logic it keeps squirming", nope, it's dead.

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    Default Re: Build suggestions needed for homebrew base class I am creating.

    I lost interest at +60 damage lol.

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    Default Re: Build suggestions needed for homebrew base class I am creating.

    Quote Originally Posted by invaderk2 View Post
    You might get more responses in the actual homebrew forum
    *Head-desks repeatedly*
    Why do you think I came here? I wasn't getting hardly any feedback on the overall class.
    I am trying to break off small pieces. THIS piece was about how one would actually build the character given the options I provided, so I brought it here.
    I had success with something similar in the past regarding what sorts of classes would work best for my Mepholk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramshack View Post
    I lost interest at +60 damage lol.
    Not enough? The idea is that they should be a real threat with AoOs without super-heavy gold-piece investment. AoOs are harder to pump than in-turn attacks. As I understand it, if you aren't hitting 100+ damage per turn against a single opponent at level 20 you aren't doing direct-damage right. 40 damage from other sources (basic weapon damage, strength bonus, etc) seems reasonable to me within such a paradigm.

    Am I missing something? If I were fully confident of my understanding of such things I wouldn't have come here. I do know that the capstone maneuver for... I think it is Iron Heart adds +100 damage.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2012-07-17 at 10:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Build suggestions needed for homebrew base class I am creating.

    Don't you think that the frame for this class is a little... strong?

    d12, all good saves, Divine grace (on a Cha-focused class) and effectively full BAB?

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    Default Re: Build suggestions needed for homebrew base class I am creating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    Don't you think that the frame for this class is a little... strong?

    d12, all good saves, Divine grace (on a Cha-focused class) and effectively full BAB?
    You would think that, wouldn't you?
    Two points:
    1.) Full BAB for certain types of AoOs only.
    2.) The frame seems to be about right given the number of comment I have gotten about how it is going to be a challenge to survive with this class. Its class abilities mostly come at a cost, including to saves, hit-points (via Shield Other), constitution score (and thus hitpoints indirectly), armor-class, or actions.

    In short, don't worry about it* just worry about the AoO aspect of the build.

    *Unless you want to go read the class, but I am warning you, I have a lot of the access panels opened and loose wires hanging out... it works I think(enough that I am play-testing it), but I can't promise you won't get caught in a fan-belt if you go looking at it. If you are really that brave... well it is linked in my signature.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2012-07-19 at 06:32 PM.
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    Default Re: Build suggestions needed for homebrew base class I am creating.

    I'm just finding it overwhelming. I've run out of scratch space in my head and I haven't figured out the fundamental mechanics yet.

    I wonder if you could restructure it like a binder or swordsage. Abstract the powers somewhat, then build a straightforward actual class and a separate chapter of available powers (with a summary table).

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    Default Re: Build suggestions needed for homebrew base class I am creating.

    Quote Originally Posted by dspeyer View Post
    I'm just finding it overwhelming. I've run out of scratch space in my head and I haven't figured out the fundamental mechanics yet.
    What are you worrying about the overall mechanics of the class for in this thread?
    Quote Originally Posted by dspeyer View Post
    I wonder if you could restructure it like a binder or swordsage. Abstract the powers somewhat, then build a straightforward actual class and a separate chapter of available powers (with a summary table).
    I have considered it. To a certain extent it seems pointless because the complexity just gets hidden, rather than explained any more clearly in the end. Granted hiding complexity in separate areas is traditional for certain classes given they way that feats (for the poor poor fighter), and ESPECIALLY spells(for the full-casters) work. I could try it, but it will be a LOT of work and I would need to have some confidence it would be effective (as in get me more detailed reviews).

    The problem is that they would have to be able to access ALL of the powers for their levels. MAYBE with some sort of "what you have access to right now" aspect like the binder, although that would really stick in my throat. People are already questioning the survivability of the class, and choking them down to fewer options available at any one time is only going to mean that they end up standing around being nearly completely useless more often.

    The thing is that what the individual powers do is generally NOT complicated. Mostly they just move numbers around. Basic stuff like movement speed, armor class, saving throws, etc. The most complicated effects they get in-combat are fly, the action-granting stuff from Gift of Time, and Foresight.

    I suppose that Hands of the Healer is pretty complicated and original, but...
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2012-07-19 at 06:38 PM.
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    Default Re: Build suggestions needed for homebrew base class I am creating.

    The writing in these descriptions is extremely convoluted. And I say that as someone with a tendency for convoluted writing. I don't mean that as an attack, but it's not unlikely that I'm missing something. And it may be steering commentators away.

    On feats, I'd expect Improved Trip, Chain proficiency, Double Hit and Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades), with the possible addition of Wild Cohort for a disposable ally to trigger various class features. AoOs based on movement are usually almost trivial to avoid; I'd expect those to be avoided.

    Get Them Off doesn't look like it would be useful unless the Grace-Gift's allies are morons (AND they fight mostly melee mooks) or unless the Grace-Gift sits on a horse. (Trained animals are allies, right?) In the latter case, it could be decent, but not something that would tie into many combos.

    On Enhanced Defensive Strike, Good and Ghost Touch are going to apply to the most monsters.

    Magical or specialized support is going to start being most important around level 6, when most opponents have the means to easily go around or through a melee character's threatened spaces without provoking AoOs (dumb brutes are still fair game though). This relates more to creating difficult terrain than size or strength, but increased size at least forces more distance for something to fly around or over the AoO character.

    I'd expect a Cloistered Cleric dip on almost every one of these. For Cleric Wands (presumably buffs and BC aren't offensive), Travel Devotion and Earth Devotion (for a way to force AoOs at level 6+). Monk 1 for Decisive Strike would also effectively double this thing's AoO damage, as well as other benefits. I don't know what Improved Defensive strike is, so I won't comment there.
    Last edited by eggs; 2012-07-18 at 12:35 AM.

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    Default Re: Build suggestions needed for homebrew base class I am creating.

    Please excuse any mistakes in this post from my sleep-deprived mind.

    General point of clarification: I am a seasoned homebrewer, but this is only my second base-class, and the first was designed to be NPC-only, along the lines of the Adept, Warrior, or Rich's Gleaner.

    Quote Originally Posted by eggs View Post
    The writing in these descriptions is extremely convoluted. And I say that as someone with a tendency for convoluted writing. I don't mean that as an attack, but it's not unlikely that I'm missing something. And it may be steering commentators away.
    Suggestions for improving the formatting without messing up the mechanics very welcome. Suggestions for simpler mechanics possibly welcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by eggs View Post
    On feats, I'd expect Improved Trip, Chain proficiency, Double Hit
    Not heard of Double Hit.
    Quote Originally Posted by eggs View Post
    and Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades),
    Hmm... don't have my ToB (misplaced it a while back), but I think martial stance requires you to meet the initiator level and maneuver pre-requisites. The web-enhancement maneuver cards on Wizards' site says that has a pre-requisite of one other Devoted Spirit maneuver. I guess that there are enough that you could find something that would remain useful at 10th level (the earliest you meet the initiator level requirement) and beyond.
    Quote Originally Posted by eggs View Post
    with the possible addition of Wild Cohort for a disposable ally to trigger various class features. AoOs based on movement are usually almost trivial to avoid; I'd expect those to be avoided.
    Flight, Tumble, Etherealness, and anything that keeps the target from being seen. Am I missing anything?
    Flight - a good point, but less of a problem indoors especially if you are larger than medium.
    Tumble - Blocker gives a +5 to the DC, and I should edit Improved Blocker to replace that with a +10 (incremented by 5). That won't stop anything with a strong focus on the skill, but will thin out the mooks.
    Quote Originally Posted by eggs View Post
    Get Them Off doesn't look like it would be useful unless the Grace-Gift's allies are morons (AND they fight mostly melee mooks)
    Getting swarmed only happens to morons? Ok...
    Quote Originally Posted by eggs View Post
    or unless the Grace-Gift sits on a horse. (Trained animals are allies, right?)
    Yes, mounts are (maybe VERY mildly cheesy), but unless the opponent also attacked an ally within the last turn it isn't going to help. In other words I would think that it would require the opponents to be using Spring/Fly-by/Ride-by Attack. Either that or the ally moves away (possibly requiring a Withdraw action and/or provoking AoOs depending on how surrounded they are and how deep the enemies' reaches are), and then you ride up on your horse.

    Of course, for the basic Defensive Strike, a mount does help since it means that they are always closing on an ally when they close on you.
    Quote Originally Posted by eggs View Post
    In the latter case, it could be decent, but not something that would tie into many combos.

    On Enhanced Defensive Strike, Good and Ghost Touch are going to apply to the most monsters.
    Ghost Touch makes sense. As for Good, the only double-check I would have would be that you aren't going to be kicking yourself for getting Good and that being rendered redundant when you eventually get Holy on your weapon for the damage? I guess with enough splat books you can easily find other enhancements to take than Holy, but I am just checking.
    Quote Originally Posted by eggs View Post
    Magical or specialized support is going to start being most important around level 6, when most opponents have the means to easily go around or through a melee character's threatened spaces without provoking AoOs (dumb brutes are still fair game though). This relates more to creating difficult terrain than size or strength, but increased size at least forces more distance for something to fly around or over the AoO character.
    Difficult terrain that effects fliers? Not heard of that other than in one homebrewed class that had a short-range aura that canceled flight. If you just need it to bump up the Tumble DCs, then Blocker/Improved Blocker (after I eventually fix the latter) should have that covered for a while, although stacking them would be even better.
    Quote Originally Posted by eggs View Post
    I'd expect a Cloistered Cleric dip on almost every one of these. For Cleric Wands (presumably buffs and BC aren't offensive),
    BC = Battlefield Control?
    And SOME battle-field control wouldn't be offensive. I should seriously consider defining this better, perhaps by example.
    Off the top of my sleep-deprived head:
    Wall of Stone/Force is probably fine.
    Wall of Fire is offensive even if not cast with any enemies in the danger zone initially.
    Wall of Ice and Web (cast so it doesn't contain any foes) are iffy.
    Black Tentacles are right out.
    Quote Originally Posted by eggs View Post
    Travel Devotion and Earth Devotion (for a way to force AoOs at level 6+).
    Not familiar with Cloistered Cleric. What do the Travel and Earth Devotion feats do approximately?
    If I had to guess I would say that the first probably gives short-range flight and the second creates difficult terrain?
    If so, then my answers would be that that is a fine dip as your 5th level, but also that getting an item for flight with the money you are saving on your weapon would be more effective in the long-run, and that the feats give a way of keeping the tumble DCs PRETTY good, although the 5 to 9 and 13+ level ranges might get a bit problematic even with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by eggs View Post
    Monk 1 for Decisive Strike would also effectively double this thing's AoO damage,
    Not heard of "Decisive Strike". If it doubles the damage the combination might be a bit much.
    Quote Originally Posted by eggs View Post
    as well as other benefits. I don't know what Improved Defensive strike is, so I won't comment there.
    That is a typo, should be "Enhanced Defensive Strike". Will change.

    So basically what I am hearing is that it won't do anything too cheesy, and that it has some problems that are common to AoOs in general, and that those are mostly related to the movement stuff, not the anti-casting? And that remedies exist for some of the movement related stuff.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2012-07-19 at 06:40 PM.
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