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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default [3.5] Revised Combat Manuevers (PEACH)

    This is an attempt to revise the various combat tactics on a basic-rules levels. I'll still take feedback of course, but since the thread is so old I'm mostly just using it for reference and you might be better off just PMing me.

    All of these are written with the intent of working with my other homebrew, though they should still be usable in standard games with minimal GM clarification.


    BASIC RULES
    Any combat maneuver that is performed as a Standard Action may also be performed as part of a Full-Round Attack, replacing your first (full BAB) attack that would deal damage. Unless specially stated, you cannot use more than 1 different combat maneuver per round.


    Aid Another
    In combat you can help your allies by distracting your enemies in place of making attacks of opportunity. Each attempt to Aid Another consumes one of your AoO- you can Aid Another more than once per round only if you would normally get more than one AoO. You cannot make an AoO against a target at the same time as you attempt to Aid Another. For example, if someone provokes an AoO with an attack you cannot use your AoO to deal damage, then use Aid Another help an ally defend against their attack.

    If an ally attacks or attempts to deal damage to a target you threaten you can use Aid Another to boost your ally's attack roll; you must declare your intent before the Attack Roll is made. You make an attack roll at your highest BAB against their AC, and if you succeed your ally gains your Combat Maneuver Proficiency Bonus (CMPB) to all attacks against that target until the end of their turn.

    If an enemy you threaten attacks or attempts to deal damage to an ally, you can use Aid Another to boost your ally's AC; you must declare your intent before the Attack Roll is made. You make an attack roll at your highest BAB against their AC, and if you succeed your ally gains your Combat Maneuver Proficiency Bonus (CMPB) against all attacks from that target until the end of their turn.


    Bullrush
    A Bullrush is a special attack made to push your opponent backwards. You can make a Bullrush as either a Move action or a Full-round action.

    You must announce if you are making a Bullrush before beggining any movement during your turn; your movement while Bullrushing is subject to the same limitations as when charging.
    Medium and Small characters must move at least 10 ft. to attempt a Bullrush; Large or bigger characters must move at least 15 ft.

    You cannot take a 5 ft. step in the same round you attempt a Bullrush.

    Bullrush as a Move Action
    You may move up to your normal movement speed and initiate your Bullrush attempt by moving into the space of any creature in your line of movement; this provokes an attack of opportunity from the creature as well as any other enemies who threaten you, as normal.

    Your Bullrush bonus is equal to your BAB+Str modifier+special size modifier against your target's Bullrush AC (equal to Touch AC+special size modifier+Str). If you succeed, your target is pushed backwards 5 ft.
    If you succeed by more than 5, you target is pushed backwards 10 ft. instead.

    If you fail, you must succeed on a Balance check (DC 20) or fall prone.

    Bullrush as a Full-Round
    You may move up to twice your normal movement speed and initiate your Bullrush attempt by moving into the space of any creature in your line of movement; this provokes an attack of opportunity from the creature as well as any other enemies who threaten you, as normal.

    Your Bullrush bonus is equal to your BAB+Str modifier+special size modifier against your target's Bullrush AC (equal to Touch AC+special size modifier+Str).
    If you fail, you must succeed on a Balance check (DC 20) or fall prone.

    If you succeed, your target is pushed backwards 5 ft., and you may choose to again enter their square and make an opposed strength check to push them back further. If you succeed by than 5, you can push your target back 10 ft. instead, but you must move 5 ft. forward to follow him. (so your target ends up two squares behind where he was standing when you bullrushed him, and you are standing 1 square past where he was)
    This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity from your target, though you may provoke AoO from other creatures. You may continue to push an opponent backwards until you have moved a total of twice your normal movement speed that round, or until you lose an opposed Strength check.

    Spoiler
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    The WotC size limits where "one category bigger and down", while mine are "one category smaller and up". It seems like the mechanics of Bullrushing a house-cat would make it into a different kind of attempt (Overrun or Knockback), but who am I to say you can't try to Bullrush a dragon, if that's what you want to do.


    Charge
    WIP- no changes yet


    Disarm
    You may attempt to disarm any opponent who is in a square you threaten as a standard action.
    Disarming does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

    When you attempt to disarm some one, you and your target make opposing attack rolls. If your attack roll is greater, your opponent's weapon lands at his feat. If you fail, you must make a Reflex save or drop your own weapon (DC 20). A tie means no one is disarmed.

    You may attempt to disarm your opponent's shield as well as his weapon; when doing so you do you take a -5 penalty to your roll.

    Special: If you win a Disarm attempt with an opponent while fighting unarmed, you can choose to end up with the weapon in your hands instead of at your opponent's feet.


    Feint
    Option A2- Simple Version (newest)
    Spoiler
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    You make a Feint as a swift action against any one opponent that you threaten. You make a Sleight-of-Hand check against your target's Sense Motive check. If your check is higher, you gain a bonus to your attack rolls against that target equal to your Combat Maneuver Proficiency Bonus (CMPB) until the end of your turn. If you fail, you take a -1 penalty to all attacks against any target until the end of your turn.

    Each time a target defeats your Feint attempt (rolls a higher check) they gain a +2 Circumstance bonus against further Feint attempts from you for 5 minutes (the bonus can stack).


    Option A1- Simple Version
    Spoiler
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    You may make a feinting attack in place of any attack you make as part of standard action or full round action. You must announce you are attempting to Feint before you make your attack roll.

    When feinting, you make your attack roll as normal, except you replace your normal bonus to attack rolls from BAB and Str, Dex, or any other primary ability score with your ranks and bonus in Sleight-of-Hand checks. Your opponent replaces his AC from the base-value, Dex, Con, or any other primary ability score with his ranks and bonus in Sense Motive checks.


    Option B- Complex Version
    Spoiler
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    A feint is a series of movements and/or distractions designed to confuse your opponent, preventing them being able to dodge your attacks.

    Feinting as a Move-equivalent action
    To make a feint, you make a modified Bluff check against any target whom you threaten, opposed by your target's modified Sense Motive roll. You add your Sleight of Hand bonus to your roll, and your target adds their BAB.

    If you succeed, your target is denied their Dexterity bonus to AC against your attacks until the end of your turn. This also allows you to make sneak-attacks or other similarly modified attacks that rely on your target being flatfooted

    Feinting as a Full-round action
    You may feint while making a full round attack. You must feint before you make any attack rolls, and whether or not the feint attempt is successful, you make one less attack than normal. Otherwise, it proceeds as the feint described above.

    When using this option, the attack you sacrifice is your attack with the lowest BAB.

    Pick either option A or B for your games, I would not recommend allowing both in the same game.
    Option C is, of course, to just use the RAW rules if you don't like either of my attempts.


    Fighting Defensively
    You can begin or end fighting defensively as a free action at the beginning or end of a round in which you are not flat-footed. You can remain in a defensive fighting stance as long as you wish, until the end of combat or the encounter.
    While fighting defensively, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to AC, and suffer a -4 penalty to all attack rolls. You also cannot use other combat manuevers while fighting defensively.
    Spoiler
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    Ok, not much has changed here; except that defensive fighting is not really used as a standard or Full-round action any more. Basically, you can turn it on or off once per turn, so the effects are felt for at least one full round.
    If anyone can think of ways the player can shenanigan there way around the limitations, so that they can eliminate the penalty when attacking and still gain the bonus when they are defending or something like that, let me know.



    Fighting Aggressively
    You can begin or end fighting aggressively as a free action at the beginning or end of a round in which you are not flat-footed. You can remain in an aggressive fighting stance as long as you wish, until the end of combat or the encounter.
    While fighting aggressively, you gain a +2 Circumstance bonus to attack rolls, and suffer a -4 penalty to your AC. You also cannot use other combat maneuvers while fighting aggressively.
    Spoiler
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    Since there was a defensive fighting form, it only seemed fair to have an offensive equivalent. The same general rules apply, and I hope it goes without saying that you can't fight both defensively and aggressively at the same time.



    Flanking
    Replaced with Overwhemed (see below)


    Grapple
    You may attempt to grapple any opponent who is in an adjacent square.
    Unlike other actions, most of which are taken once and then end, grappling can be an ongoing process, which is why the rules are a little more complex.

    Initiating a Grapple
    You initiate a grapple attempt as a standard action by moving into your opponent's square, provoking an attack of opportunity from your target, as well as any other enemies who threaten you (as normal).
    You make an opposed grapple checks (roll a d20) against your target; the bonus on the attacker's check is equal to your BAB+Str modifier+ special size modifier. The bonus on the defender's check is the same, except that he may choose to use his Dex modifier in place of his Str modifier.

    If your target succesfully defends himself (wins the grapple check) he can choose whether he is grappling you (controlling the grapple), or he can push you back into your starting square (this movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity). If you are repulsed, you must succeed on a Balance check (DC 20) or fall prone.

    Any creature involved in a grapple may make a crush attack immediately following any succesful grapple check it initiates (including the check to start a grapple). This changes a standard-action grapple into a full round action; and the crush attack cannot be made if the creature has already taken a move action that turn.

    In the event of a tie, roll again to determine who wins.

    Holding a weapon, shield or other item in your hand gives a -3 penalty on grapple checks; each hand or other limb gripping an item increases the penalty by an additional -3 (for example, a humanoid holding a sword and shield or a greataxe would take a -6 penalty). You can drop a weapon or object as a free action before rolling your grapple check; a shield is strapped to your arm and must be dropped as a swift action during your turn.

    Controlling a Grapple
    While grappling a creature, you lose any dodge bonus to your AC. You may make attacks of opportunity, however you take a -4 penalty to your attack rolls, as well as a -4 penalty to any grapple checks made before the start of your next turn. If you are in control of a grapple at the start of your turn, you may take one of several actions:
    • You can choose to do nothing except continue to hold on to your opponent.
    • You may release your hold on your opponent as a move action, and move up to your normal movement speed. Moving out of the square occupied by your opponent does not provoke attacks of opportunity, any other movement provokes AoO as normal.
    • You can make a grapple check; if you lose you are now grappled. If you win, you may make a Crush attack as described above.
    • You may make a grapple check to pin your opponent; if you lose you are now grappled. If you win, your opponent is pinned (see below).
    • You may make an attack against the creature you are grappling as part of either a standard or full attack action as normal. You may attack with either light or one-handed weapons; you may not attack with either a shield or a two-handed weapon.
    • You may move up to half your maximum movement as a move action while dragging your opponent along with you. You may move up to your normal movement as a full-round action.
    • You may throw your opponent as a standard action. If you choose to throw your opponent, you must suceed on a grapple check; failing means you are now grappled. If you succeed, compare his weight to your carrying capacity. If they would be the equivalent of a heavy load, you can throw them 5 ft in any direction; if they are a medium load 15 ft, and if a light load 25 ft. If they weigh more than a heavy load, you cannot throw them. If the creature you throw collides with any solid object(s) they take 1d10+Str damage. If the square you throw them at is occupied by another creature, that creature may make a Reflex save (DC 15) to avoid them. If they fail, both creatures crash to the ground, and are now prone.
    • You may take any other actions (including free, swift, move, standard, and full-round actions) that do not require you to release your oppoent from the grapple (speaking, drawing an item or weapon, dropping a held object, activating a spell like-ability, etc).

    Being Grappled
    If you are being grappled you lose any dodge or dexterity bonus to your AC and cannot make attacks of opportunity. During your turn, you may take one of several actions:
    • You may make a grapple check in an attempt to win control of the grapple; both characters make opposed strength-based grapple checks. If you win, you may immediately make a crush attack as described above.
    • You may make an Escape Artist Check as a full-round action; the DC for the check is 10+your opponent's BAB+Str modifier. If you succeed the Escape Artist Check you end up in any adjacent sqaure (if at least one square is empty, you must move to that square instead of an occupied square); this movement does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity.
    • You may cast a spell while grappled (this does not provoke an AoO from the creature grappling you, though it may provoke attacks from other creatures that threaten you). When casting, you must suceed on a Concentration check (DC equal to 10+your opponent's BAB+Str modifier) or there is a 50% chance the spell will automatically fail.
    • You may make attack against the creature grappling you as part of either a standard or full attack action as normal. You take a -2 penalty when making an attack roll with a light weapon and a -4 penalty on any attack made with a one-handed weapon. You may not attack with either a shield or a two-handed weapon.
    • You may take any other actions (including free, swift, move, standard, and full-round actions) that do not require you to free yourself from the grapple (speaking, drawing an item or weapon, dropping a held object, activating a spell like-ability, etc).

    Pinned
    Pinned is a more severe form of being grappled. If you are pinned at the start of a turn, you may take one of several actions:
    • You may make a grapple check; if you lose you are still pinned. If you win, you are grappled, but no longer pinned.
    • You may make an Escape Artist Check as a full-round action; the DC for the check is 15+your opponent's BAB+Str modifier. If you succeed on the Escape Artist Check you end up in any adjacent sqaure (preferably an unoccupied square); this movement does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity.
    • You may attempt to cast a spell. When casting, you must suceed on a Concentration check (DC equal to 15+your opponent's BAB+Str modifier) or there is a 50% chance the spell will automatically fail. Any spells with somatic components automatically fail anyway.
    • You may take any other actions (including free, swift, move, standard, and full-round actions) that do not require you to free yourself from being pinned (speaking, triggering a magic item via thought, activating a supernatural or spell-like ability, etc).



    Knockback attacks (Optional)
    When attacking a creature at least 2 size categories smaller than itself, a creature has the option to modify it's attack to attempt to push its target around instead.

    The attacker takes and a -3 penalty to it's attack rolls and if it deals damage to it's target, the targeted creating must succeed on a Strength check (DC=10+Special size modifiers) or be knocked backwards (away from the larger creature) 5 ft. If it fails by more than 5, it is knocked back 10 ft. instead.


    Overrun
    Normally, creatures are prevented from moving through spaces occupied by opposing creatures. However, through sheer size and mass some creatures can overrun smaller creatures.

    You may move through a square occupied by an opposing creature, provided you are at least one size category larger than that creature. You still provoke attacks of opportunity as normal, unless you succeed on a Tumble check to avoid them.

    Any creature who's square you run through must succeed on a Balance check or be knocked prone; the DC for this check is 10 + 1/5 ft. of movement speed of the larger creature. For example, if the larger creature has a movement speed of 30 ft., then the DC is 16, even if the creature does not move the full 30 ft.
    If the larger creature is charging, the DC is increased by 5.


    Overwhelmed
    Attempting to fight to many opponents at once reduces your ability to respond to attack from any one direction. If more than one enemy threatens you, then you are considered to be overwhelmed.
    For each enemy that threatens you beyond the first your AC is reduced by 1.
    You can overwhelm enemies even while you yourself are being overwhelmed.

    For example, if two sets of 3 combatants line up facing one another and positioned shoulder to shoulder, each combatant in the middle will have their AC reduced by 2, and each of the 4 combatants on the ends of the line will have their AC reduced by 1.


    Shield Bash
    If you are wielding a shield you may attempt to bash your enemy with it, provided you are proficient with the use of that shield. A shield bash is an additional attack you can make with your shield at any time you are also attacking as a Standard or Full-Round attack. A shield bash is made at -5 to your full BAB (the same as normal subsequent attacks). See the weapons-chart for damage dealt by shields.
    During any round in which you attempt a shield bash you lose any bonus from your shield to AC until the start of your next turn.

    For the purposes of provoking attacks of opportunity and applying other combat rules, a buckler counts as a light weapon, an infantry shield is a one-handed weapon, and a tower shield is a two-handed weapon.


    Sunder
    A Sunder is an attack aimed at destroying an opponent's weapon, shield, armor, or other item they are wearing. It is made as a Standard Action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

    To make a Sunder attack against armor, shield, or a worn object, you make an attack roll against your target's AC, minus any AC bonus provided by the worn armor or shield.
    To make a Sunder against a weapon, you make an attack roll against AC equal to your opponent's BAB+Str or Dex modifier, whichever is higher.

    If you beat the target AC, you roll as normal for damage, and subtract that amount from the item's HP. If you fail to beat the target AC, you must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 15) to keep a firm grip on your weapon; failure means your weapon takes 10% of it's HP in damage.
    Also, if the object you are attempting to sunder is made of a harder material than the weapon you are using, you automatically deal 0 damage on a successful Sunder attack.

    A weapon functions as normal until it is completely destroyed (0 HP)

    Optional Damage Rules (for use with partial damage)
    Spoiler
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    When an item loses 30% or more of it's HP, it is considered damaged.
    When an item loses 70% or more of it's HP, it is considered broken.
    When an item loses all of it's HP, it is considered shattered or destroyed; it is completely unusable and cannot be repaired by normal means without being reforged or remade entirely.

    Weapons that are damaged receive a -2 penalty on attack rolls and deal 25% less damage than normal. Weapons that are broken receive a -8 penalty on attack rolls and deal 50% less damage than normal; they are also incapable of scoring a critical hit.

    Armor or shields that are damaged increase their ACP by 1, and reduce their AC and DR bonuses by 1. Armor or shields that are broken increase their ACP by 2, and reduce their AC and DR bonus by 3; in addition you can only move at half your maximum speed in broken heavy armor, broken medium armor slows you down as much as heavy armor normally does, and broken light armor slows you down as if it was medium armor.

    Special: You can Sunder some natural weapons such as teeth, claws, and horns. In these cases, your target takes normal sunder damage to their natural weapons, as well as damage to their HP equal to 25% of the damage of your attack.
    Spoiler
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    I never saw a lot of sunder attacks in the games I played, so I'm sort of treading blind on this one; any feedback would be appreciated. I think the steps I've laid out for sunder make it simpler.
    I could not find any rules for broken damaging on the SRD, so I made up my own. Feel free to comment on those, too, or link me to where I can see the official versions.


    Trip
    You may make a trip attack against any opponent who is in a square you threaten.
    A Trip is a Standard Action that provokes an Attack of Opportunity from your target. The bonus to a Trip attempt is BAB+Str modifier+special size modifier, against your target's Trip AC (equal to Touch AC +special size modifier+Str). If you succeed, your target is knocked Prone. If you fail, you must succeed on a Balance Check (DC 20)or fall prone.
    You may trip a creature who is flying or floating, provided they are within 5 ft. of the ground. You recieve a -5 penalty on your trip attempt when doing so, however.

    All creatures recieve a bonus to their Trip AC depending on how many limbs (usually equal to their number of legs) they are balancing on. (flying creatures recieve no bonus)
    Number of Limbs Trip AC Bonus
    1 -2
    2 +0
    3-4 +2
    5-6 +5
    7-9 +8
    10+ +12
    *creatures that move on the ground but without legs, such as a gelatinous cube or giant snake, gain the maximum bonus

    Special: If you are tripping with a weapon, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Before you make your attempt, your opponent may choose to make an opposing attack roll instead of defending with his Touch AC. You make opposed attack rolls with all relevant modifiers (Str, Dex if applicable, size, etc). If your roll beats your target's, your opponent falls prone, as normal. If you fail the Trip attempt, the weapon is knocked from your hands and falls at your feet. If you fail by more than 5, your weapon is knocked aside, landing 10 ft. away in a random direction.
    Your weapon must have a note in it's description saying it allows tripping attempts in order to use this option.
    Spoiler
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    Tripping with and without a weapon now works slightly differently, the idea being that you can avoid some of the risk by tripping with a weapon, but your target gains the opportunity to better defend himself.

    Also, my revised version of the tripping feat will let you use your Dex modifier in place or Str, if you choose. I picture this as tangling up your opponent and causing them to fall, instead of just body-checking them to knock them flat.




    UPDATES: I've tweaked the related feats that go with these. You can find them here.

    Edit 6/28/15: After a long hiatus, I'm working on this again and aiming for further simplification and fat-trimming.
    Edit 8/14/14: Added shield bash for the sake of completeness and clarification, even if it hasn't changed much.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2017-02-12 at 07:27 PM. Reason: updating with new or clarified mechanics
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Combat Manuevers (PEACH)

    I like your disarm rules - a lot cleaner and simpler than core.

    For a quick & dirty fix for feinting, consider this:
    ==============================
    - Aggressor's score = d20 + BAB + CHA-mod + Sleight of Hand synergy
    - Defender's score = d20 + BAB + WIS-mod + Sense Motive synergy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Combat Manuevers (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I like your disarm rules - a lot cleaner and simpler than core.

    For a quick & dirty fix for feinting, consider this:
    ==============================
    - Aggressor's score = d20 + BAB + CHA-mod + Sleight of Hand synergy
    - Defender's score = d20 + BAB + WIS-mod + Sense Motive synergy
    Thanks!

    I had forgotten about Sleight of Hand; it's one of those skills that doesn't always get as much playtime as it's sexier more well-known cousins. I think I like it better for fienting than Bluff, I'll make the change.


    Also, Sunder is up!
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-07-21 at 02:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Combat Manuevers (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Thanks!

    I had forgotten about Sleight of Hand; it's one of those skills that doesn't always get as much playtime as it's sexier more well-known cousins. I think I like it better for fienting than Bluff, I'll make the change.


    Also, Sunder is up!
    1. I see no real problems with the Sunder mechanics (other than that I'd allow sundering with 2-handed piercing weapons, taking a -4 penalty to both attack and damage rolls (-8 with 1-H or missile weapons)). Generally, I think WotC did a decent job there.
    2. Your alternative rules - even though I recognize some rationale in them - require too much bookkeeping. You'll lose more than you'll gain.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Combat Manuevers (PEACH)

    Wow, I did not mean to let this lapse for 2 weeks; just got busy with other things.

    Anywho, Bullrush/Overrrun is posted. I couldn't do much to simplify this combat tactic, since it was pretty decent already, but BRO is now one set of actions with different options (kind of like grapple).

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    1. I see no real problems with the Sunder mechanics (other than that I'd allow sundering with 2-handed piercing weapons, taking a -4 penalty to both attack and damage rolls (-8 with 1-H or missile weapons)). Generally, I think WotC did a decent job there.
    2. Your alternative rules - even though I recognize some rationale in them - require too much bookkeeping. You'll lose more than you'll gain.
    I'll tackle number 2 first: did you mean my alternate damage rules? I have now listed them as an optional variant. If you did not mean that, please explain.

    Also, I realize that stabbing some one's sword with your dagger probably wouldn't work very well, but breaking through a shield (which was legal by RAW) seems to me like it would work better with a stabby weapon than a slashy one. Since part of my goal was to simplify things, I decided to do away with having some weapons be better at breaking stuff soley by virtue of their type.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-08-14 at 10:52 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Combat Manuevers (PEACH)

    A crucial part of simplifying combat maneuvers is making it so they don't all require rolls and statistics which no other part of the game uses. If I have to write separate lines on my character sheet (or more commonly, my monsters) for every attack and defense for every combat maneuver, it's not simplified.

    Feint, right now, breaks that rule hard. It's something that has to be calculated; it's not simple enough for me to eyeball it on the fly. It's a calculation that is used in no other context. I don't like it.

    Grapple... A Strength-using defender should not be forced to grapple his opponent. But the bigger problem is that you are now literally incapable of taking ANY action while grappled other than trying to escape the grapple. That's crazy; you're combining pinning and grappling into one maneuver. Unless you're in control of the grapple, you can't even try to fight your opponent directly? This will not end well at all. If a tentacle monster manages to grab the party, it's probably a TPK. Black Tentacles and Grasping Hand just became godly.

    Trip: "Touch AC + 10" does not scale at at all with level. 90% of tough enemies can be tripped by a level 1 fighter under this rule - and for a mid-level fighter, you're looking at near auto-success.

    Disarm: The Reflex save is yet another attribute that is used nowhere else in the game and has to be written down or calculated on the spot.

    Sunder: "minus any AC bonus provided by the worn armor or shield" is basically Touch AC - oh, no, wait, natural armor and things. Okay, that's another new mechanic that is used nowhere else. And why do Sunder and Disarm use completely different mechanics when they are both relying on "hit the other guy's weapon"?

    Bull Rush: Used as a move action, but I make an attack roll? What am I attacking with, my weapon? How does that make sense?

    So... have you considered the Pathfinder combat maneuver rules? You should at least take a look at them. They're simplified nicely, and relatively easy to port into a non-Pathfinder game.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Combat Manuevers (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadskye View Post
    A crucial part of simplifying combat maneuvers is making it so they don't all require rolls and statistics which no other part of the game uses. If I have to write separate lines on my character sheet (or more commonly, my monsters) for every attack and defense for every combat maneuver, it's not simplified.
    Thanks for the feedback.
    I have never played with full PF rules; I mostly just skim the sections that have relevant information to whatever I am working on atm. I disliked the CMB/CMD system initially, partially because it made things feel to much the same. I wanted a trip to be different from a disarm.

    Of all your comments, the only one I don't understand is about not doing new calculations on the fly; that seems like kind of a core concept for the game, and most of the mental math isn't terribly hard.
    I don't have the PHB memorized, nor do I remember the AC for every character I ever played. But I had a good idea of the stats of whatever character I was playing at the time, and if I knew I was going to be using a given technique a lot I made sure to read up on it and refresh my memory.

    Even in Pathfinder, various feats or other features can modify your CMB/CMD on a case-by-case basis, and you would still need to either memorize or have handy a cheat-sheet for the outcome of a given manuever.

    To comment individually:
    I was happy with fient, I feel it's distinct from a normal attack roll, easy to use, and I really don't know how I can get it much simpler; unless there are other arguments to offer, I'll probably leave it as is.
    I really don't think that calculating your Attack roll and AC using a single different value is harder than keeping track of the bonus and when/if you can use it for the 3.5/PF versions.


    For grappling, If you are grappled, you can try to escape, or try take control of the grapple and deal damage to your opponent that way. The original posting I took inspiration from had it laid out like that. I will make a change to allow a strength-based defense to not be forced into a grapple, and I'll see where I can make other alterations, inluding for being pinned.
    When I wrote this, I was thinking mostly about two humanoids fighting, not some one trying to wrestle a squid. Maybe I should make changes to monsters instead; grabbed by 1 tentacle is entangled, 2 tentacles is grappled, 4 is pinned, etc.


    Trip: It was a mistake on my part to not include a size modifier to the AC; I will think about some way to make it scale better as well. Still, I want there to be a difference between attempting to trip a CR 20 dinosaur and a CR 20 humanoid caster.


    I like things that scale, which is why I had that odd value for Disarm. I'll consider changing it to a flat DC save, if I can find a number I'm happy with.


    Sunder and Disarm use different mechanics because I wanted them to feel different. Flicking a weapon out of some one's hand is not quite the same as smashing it into pieces (plus you can sunder shields and armor).


    Bullrush seems like it's half Overrun, half Grapple, and I was trying to find something that indicated you where either slamming into or grabbing hold of your target, and the RAW's "standard action as a move action" seemed confusing. Wether you are pushing some one back with your shoulder or with a weapon, I wanted it to be the same. There can often be a fine line between "always works" and "never works", and me personal favorite for just about everything in D&D is "has a chance to work". Again, I will take another look at this to see what I can change to make it better or to improve clarity.



    Updates: Grapple Rules expanded
    Trip attack check and AC altered
    Overrun has been eliminated (see above for explanation)
    Bullrush has been split into 2 seperate versions for simplification.

    Also, I've been simplifying the penalties for failing various manuevers (Trip, Grapple, Bullrush) by making them all Balance checks to avoid falling prone instead of a temporary AC penalty.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-09-10 at 12:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Combat Manuevers (PEACH)

    Feats
    I've tried to make the feats more effective at higher levels, as well as make them more accessable by stripping out the feat-chain requirements. I'm also trying something new with the prerequisities involving ability scores by giving a variable option for higher BAB characters.


    BASIC RULES
    All feats which refer to a Combat Maneuver Proficiency Bonus (CMPB) use the following table:

    Table: Combat Manuever Proficiency Bonus
    BAB CMP Bonus
    0-2 +2
    3-6 +3
    7-11 +4
    12-17 +5
    18-24 +6
    25+ +8


    Improved Feint
    Prerequisite: Wis 13 OR BAB +4

    Benefit: You gain a combat proficiency bonus to your Feinting attempts (either attacks or skill checks, whichever rules you are using), and to avoid being tricked by a Feint.

    You may also Feint whenever you make attacks of opportunity.

    Special: A Fighter may select Improved Feint as one of his fighter bonus feats.


    Improved Trip
    Prerequisite: Dex 13 OR BAB +4

    Benefit: You gain a combat maneuver proficiency bonus (see above) to your Trip attempts, as well as to your AC to avoid being tripped.

    In addition, when making a trip attempt you may replace your Strength modifier with your Dexterity modifier. You may also replace your Str modifier with your Dexterity modifier when calculating AC to avoid being tripped.

    Special: A fighter may select Improved Trip as one of his fighter bonus feats.


    Improved Grapple
    Prerequisite: Con 13 OR BAB +4

    Benefit: You gain a combat maneuver proficiency bonus (see above) to your Grapple rolls, as well as to Escape Artists checks to escape from a grapple.

    In addition, you may initiate a grapple when you make an attack of opportunity.

    Special: A fighter may select Improved Grapple as one of his fighter bonus feats.


    Improved Disarm
    Prerequisite: Dex 13 OR BAB +4

    Benefit: You gain a combat maneuver proficiency bonus (see above) to all your Disarm rolls.

    You may also make disarm attempts whenever you make attacks of opportunity.

    Special: A fighter may select Improved Disarm as one of his fighter bonus feats.


    Improved Sunder
    Prerequisite: Str 13 OR BAB +4

    Benefit: You gain a combat maneuver proficiency bonus (see above) to all your Sunder attempts.

    In addition, if you fail a Sunder attempt you do not need to make a Fortitude save to avoid your own weapon taking damage.

    Special: A fighter may select Improved Sunder as one of his fighter bonus feats.


    Improved Bullrush
    Prerequisite: Str 13 OR BAB +4

    Benefit: You gain a combat maneuver proficiency bonus (see above) to all your Bullrush attempts and Strength checks made to push your opponents around.

    In addition, when making a Bullrush attempt you may move over or through terrain that would normally slow or impede movement (you still consume additional movement for passing through these areas, as normal). You may also pass through squares occupied by allies, though they count as difficult terrain.

    Special: A fighter may select Improved Bullrush as one of his fighter bonus feats.



    As always, let me know what you think.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2017-02-12 at 07:12 PM. Reason: fixin' tables
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Combat Manuevers (PEACH)

    This thread has been dormant a while, but I finally got around to tweaking the defensive manuevers, as well as adding a new style of fighting. These are not nearly as different from there original models as the other changes, mostly because they where pretty straightforward to begin with.

    Also, I'd love some one to weigh in on my "Aggressive Fighting" idea.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2013-01-14 at 11:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Combat Manuevers (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Also, I'd love some one to weigh in on my "Aggressive Fighting" idea.
    If you're talking about your previous post, then all I'd change would be to add "OR Fighter level 4".
    I also wish to remind you that according to "Epic Level Handbook", past +20, BAB improves only every 5 levels, so you might as well make the +6 into +7 and stop there.

    If you're talking about something else, then which post and what's the topic? Because I couldn't find "Aggressive" anywhere.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Combat Manuevers (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    If you're talking about your previous post, then all I'd change would be to add "OR Fighter level 4".
    I also wish to remind you that according to "Epic Level Handbook", past +20, BAB improves only every 5 levels, so you might as well make the +6 into +7 and stop there.

    If you're talking about something else, then which post and what's the topic? Because I couldn't find "Aggressive" anywhere.
    Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you.

    Originally I had the new stuff in the latest post, but I decided it was better to keep it all together.

    The "Aggressive Fighting" style is in the very first post of the thread, near the bottom. It's basically the polar opposite of the classic Defensive Fighting actions, trading AC for an extra shot at damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Combat Manuevers (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you.

    Originally I had the new stuff in the latest post, but I decided it was better to keep it all together.

    The "Aggressive Fighting" style is in the very first post of the thread, near the bottom. It's basically the polar opposite of the classic Defensive Fighting actions, trading AC for an extra shot at damage.
    Ok, I don't get the "cannot Shield Bash while fighting aggressively" (ever saw the final dual in "Troy"?).

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Combat Manuevers (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Ok, I don't get the "cannot Shield Bash while fighting aggressively" (ever saw the final dual in "Troy"?).
    I was mostly just thinking that anything shield related isn't really an offensive fighting style, but you make a good point. I'll take it out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Combat Manuevers (PEACH)

    Ok, serving a PEACH up as requested on the exchange thread.

    comments in Bold

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Feint
    You may make a feinting attack in place of any attack you make as part of standard action or full round action. You must announce you are attempting to Feint before you make your attack roll.

    When Feinting, you make your attack roll as normal, except you replace your normal bonus to attack rolls from Str, Dex, and any other primary ability score with your bonus to Sleight-of-Hand checks. Your opponent replaces his bonus to AC from Dex, Con, and any other primary ability score with his bonus to Sense Motive checks.

    Wait... do you mean they replace the ability modifying their AC/To Hit roll with the ability modifying sense motive/slight of hand, or are we talking full bonus? because the latter is broken as hell, while the former is a bit crazy. Wis isn't generally a dump stat, but most monster don't have a high bonus there. Admittedly this isn't as much of a bonus as the free weapon finesse... But still, weird.

    Trip
    You may make a trip attack against any opponent who is in a square you threaten.
    A trip is a standard action that provokes an Attack of Opportunity from your target. The bonus to a trip attempt is BAB+Str modifier+special size modifier, against your target's Trip AC (equal to Touch AC +special size modifier+Str). If you succeed, your target is knocked Prone. If you fail, you must succeed on a Balance Check (DC 20)or fall prone.
    You may trip a creature who is flying or floating, provided they are within 5 ft. of the ground. You receive a -5 penalty on your trip attempt when doing so, however.

    Hmm... I think I see were you are going with this... (making the touch attack+opposed roll into a single roll) but I am not sure I like the result. Also, tripping still sucks at high levels as monsters get bigger.


    All creatures recieve a bonus to their Trip AC depending on how many limbs (usually equal to their number of legs) they are balancing on. (flying creatures recieve no bonus)
    {table]Number of Limbs|Trip AC Bonus
    1| -2
    2| +0
    3-4| +2
    5-6| +5
    7-9|+8
    10+|+12 [/table]
    *creatures that move on the ground but without legs, such as a gelatinous cube or giant snake, gain the maximum bonus

    reasonable I guess...

    Tripping as a Full-round Action
    If you choose to make a trip attempt as a Full-round action, you may immediately follow a succesful trip with one attack against the opponent you have knocked down.

    Hmm... I don't think I like this. Just a personal opinion.

    Special: If you are tripping with a weapon, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Before you make your attempt, your opponent may choose to make an opposing attack roll instead of defending with his Touch AC. You make opposed attack rolls with all relevant modifiers (Str, Dex if applicable, size, etc). If your roll beats your target's, your opponent falls prone, as normal. If you fail the trip attempt, the weapon is knocked from your hands and falls at your feet. If you fail for 5 or more, your weapon is knocked aside, landing 10 ft. away in a random direction.
    Your weapon must have a note in it's description saying it allows tripping attempts in order to use this option.
    Spoiler
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    Tripping with and without a weapon now works slightly differently, the idea being that you can avoid some of the risk by tripping with a weapon, but your target gains the opportunity to better defend himself.
    Also, in my armor fix (linked in my sig), shields add to your touch AC; as one poster commented "That's what shield do; they keep people from touching you!"

    Also, my revised version of the tripping feat will let you use your Dex modifier in place or Str, if you choose. I picture this as tangling up your opponent and causing them to fall, instead of just body-checking them to knock them flat.


    Seems reasonable.


    Grapple
    You may attempt to grapple any opponent who is in an adjacent square.

    Initiating a Grapple
    You initiate a grapple attempt as a standard action by moving into your opponent's square, provoking an attack of opportunity from your target, as well as any other enemies who threaten you (as normal).
    You make an opposed grapple checks (roll a d20) against your target; the bonus on the attacker's check is equal to your BAB+Str modifier+ special size modifier. The bonus on the defender's check is the same, except that he may choose to use his Dex modifier in place of his Str modifier.

    Seems the same as normal grapple...

    If your target successfully defends himself (wins the grapple check) he can choose whether he is grappling you (controlling the grapple), or he can push you back into your starting square (this movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity). If you are repulsed, you must succeed on a Balance check (DC 20) or fall prone.

    What is with balance and flat DCs... also this seems like a nice simplification of grapple...

    Any creature involved in a grapple may make a crush attack immediately following any successful grapple check it initiates (including the check to start a grapple). This changes a standard-action grapple into a full round action; and the crush attack cannot be made if the creature has already taken a move action that turn.

    Hmm... ok? You trying to stop the monks flurry grapple?

    In the event of a tie, roll again to determine who wins.

    Holding a weapon, shield or other item in your hand gives a -3 penalty on grapple checks; each hand or other limb gripping an item increases the penalty by an additional -3 (for example, a humanoid holding a sword and shield or a greataxe would take a -6 penalty). You can drop a weapon or object as a free action before rolling your grapple check; a shield is strapped to your arm and must be dropped as a swift action during your turn.

    Ok... this makes sense.

    Controlling a Grapple
    While grappling a creature, you lose any dodge bonus to your AC. You may make attacks of opportunity, however you take a -4 penalty to your attack rolls, as well as a -4 penalty to any grapple checks made before the start of your next turn. If you are in control of a grapple at the start of your turn, you may take one of several actions:
    • You can choose to do nothing except continue to hold on to your opponent.
    • You may release your hold on your opponent as a move action, and move up to your normal movement speed. Moving out of the square occupied by your opponent does not provoke attacks of opportunity, any other movement provokes AoO as normal.
    • You can make a grapple check; if you lose you are now grappled. If you win, you may make a Crush attack as described above.
    • You may make a grapple check to pin your opponent; if you lose you are now grappled. If you win, your opponent is pinned (see below).
    • You may make an attack against the creature you are grappling as part of either a standard or full attack action as normal. You may attack with either light or one-handed weapons; you may not attack with either a shield or a two-handed weapon.
    • You may move up to half your maximum movement as a move action while dragging your opponent along with you. You may move up to your normal movement as a full-round action.
    • You may throw your opponent as a standard action. If you choose to throw your opponent, you must suceed on a grapple check; failing means you are now grappled. If you succeed, compare his weight to your carrying capacity. If they would be the equivalent of a heavy load, you can throw them 5 ft in any direction; if they are a medium load 15 ft, and if a light load 25 ft. If they weigh more than a heavy load, you cannot throw them. If the creature you throw collides with any solid object(s) they take 1d10+Str damage. If the square you throw them at is occupied by another creature, that creature may make a Reflex save (DC 15) to avoid them. If they fail, both creatures crash to the ground, and are now prone.
    • You may take any other actions (including free, swift, move, standard, and full-round actions) that do not require you to release your oppoent from the grapple (speaking, drawing an item or weapon, dropping a held object, activating a spell like-ability, etc).


    Hmm... this list is better then the standard options.

    Being Grappled
    If you are being grappled you lose any dodge or dexterity bonus to your AC and cannot make attacks of opportunity. During your turn, you may take one of several actions:
    • You may make a grapple check in an attempt to win control of the grapple; both characters make opposed strength-based grapple checks. If you win, you may immediately make a crush attack as described above.
    • You may make an Escape Artist Check as a full-round action; the DC for the check is 10+your opponent's BAB+Str modifier. If you succeed the Escape Artist Check you end up in any adjacent sqaure (if at least one square is empty, you must move to that square instead of an occupied square); this movement does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity.
    • You may cast a spell while grappled (this does not provoke an AoO from the creature grappling you, though it may provoke attacks from other creatures that threaten you). When casting, you must suceed on a Concentration check (DC equal to 10+your opponent's BAB+Str modifier) or there is a 50% chance the spell will automatically fail.
    • You may make attack against the creature grappling you as part of either a standard or full attack action as normal. You take a -2 penalty when making an attack roll with a light weapon and a -4 penalty on any attack made with a one-handed weapon. You may not attack with either a shield or a two-handed weapon.
    • You may take any other actions (including free, swift, move, standard, and full-round actions) that do not require you to free yourself from the grapple (speaking, drawing an item or weapon, dropping a held object, activating a spell like-ability, etc).


    Now I entirely sympathize with people that avoid the grapple rules...

    Pinned
    Pinned is a more severe form of being grappled. If you are pinned at the start of a turn, you may take one of several actions:
    • You may make a grapple check; if you lose you are still pinned. If you win, you are grappled, but no longer pinned.
    • You may make an Escape Artist Check as a full-round action; the DC for the check is 15+your opponent's BAB+Str modifier. If you succeed on the Escape Artist Check you end up in any adjacent sqaure (preferably an unoccupied square); this movement does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity.
    • You may attempt to cast a spell. When casting, you must suceed on a Concentration check (DC equal to 15+your opponent's BAB+Str modifier) or there is a 50% chance the spell will automatically fail. Any spells with somatic components automatically fail anyway.
    • You may take any other actions (including free, swift, move, standard, and full-round actions) that do not require you to free yourself from being pinned (speaking, triggering a magic item via thought, activating a supernatural or spell-like ability, etc).


    Ok, seems reasonable...

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    Unfortunately, there's not much less text than the SRD, partly because of the added options for winning a grapple. I feel that in practice this is simpler, since the only rolls you should ever need to make are opposed grapple checks.
    Also, it is intentional that getting hit with the AoO no longer spoils your grapple attempt, you just take damage.

    Edit: Updated to include more details; even though this isn't much simpler than RAW by now, I'm leaving it here anyway because I feel it works pretty well.


    This really is still a headache to get through... would not want to use if I could avoid it.

    Disarm
    Whenever you are making an attack as a Standard action of part of a Full-round action, you can choose to attempt to disarm your opponent (knocking his weapon from his grasp) instead of dealing damage. You must announce you are making a disarm attempt before making your attack roll.

    Ok, this is something I like(making maneuvers part of normal attacks).

    When you attempt to disarm some one, you and your target make opposing attack rolls. If your attack roll is greater, your opponent's weapon lands at his feat. If you fail, you must make a Reflex save or drop your own weapon (DC 20). A tie means no one is disarmed.

    Ok, not a fan of the static DC. Other then that this looks good.

    You may attempt to disarm your opponent's shield as well as his weapon; when doing so you do you take a -5 penalty to your roll.

    Seems like a reasonable penalty.

    What about non weapon/shield items like an amulate... or a hat? Were are the rules for removing these from an opponents person?


    Special: If you attempt to Disarm an opponent while fighting unarmed, you provoke an Attack of Opportunity as normal, however if you win the disarm check you can choose to end up with the weapon in your hands instead of at your opponent's feet.

    Reminds me of assassins creed. Seems like a good idea.

    Sunder
    A Sunder is a full round attack aimed at destroying an opponent's weapon, shield, armor, or other item they are wearing. It does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

    Why not make this another "as a normal attack, but against a diffrent target" like trip or disarm?

    To make a Sunder attack against armor, shield, or a worn object, you make an attack roll against your target's AC, minus any AC bonus provided by the worn armor or shield.
    To make a Sunder against a weapon, you make an attack roll against AC equal to your opponent's BAB+Str or Dex modifier, whichever is higher.

    Weapons are insta hits until high levels... give it a +10 for balances sake.

    If you beat your target's AC, you roll as normal for damage, and subtract that amount from the item's HP. If you fail to beat the target AC, you must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 15) to keep a firm grip on your weapon; failure means your weapon takes 10% of it's HP in damage.
    Also, if the object you are attempting to sunder is made of a harder material than the weapon you are using, you automatically deal 0 damage on a successful Sunder attack.

    Umm... why should my addimantine great sword shatter after I screw up 10 attacks on normal armor? Why not allow a free damage from the targeted item.

    A weapon functions as normal until it is completely destroyed (0 HP)

    Ok... seems reasonable.

    Optional Damage Rules (for use with partial damage)
    Spoiler
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    When an item loses 30% or more of it's HP, it is considered damaged.
    When an item loses 70% or more of it's HP, it is considered broken.
    When an item loses all of it's HP, it is considered shattered or destroyed; it is completely unusable and cannot be repaired by normal means without being reforged or remade entirely.

    Weapons that are damaged recieve a -2 penalty on attack rolls and deal 25% less damage than normal. Weapons that are broken recieve a -8 penalty on attack rolls and deal 50% less damage than normal; they are also incapable of scoring a critical hit.

    Armor or shields that are damaged increase their ACP by 1, and reduce their AC and DR bonuses by 1. Armor or shields that are broken increases their ACP by 2, and reduce their AC and DR bonus by 4; in addition you can only move at half your maximum speed in heavy armor, and medium armor slows you down as much as heavy armor normally does.


    Needs rules for fixing equipment...

    Special: You can Sunder some natural weapons such as teeth, claws, and horns. In these cases, your target takes 25% of the damage you deal as part of your sunder attack as normal HP damage.

    Do you have a chance at breaking the natural weapons? otherwise, it sounds like you spend a full round action to make one attack that deals 25% of normal damage... the hell?


    Spoiler
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    I never saw a lot of sunder attacks in the games I played, so I'm sort of treading blind on this one; any feedback would be appreciated. I think the steps I've laid out for sunder make it simpler; hopefully by limiting it to Full round actions and including a small penalty for failure it won't be considered overly powerful.
    I could not find any rules for broken stuff on the SRD, so I made up my own. Feel free to comment on those, too, or link me to where I can see the official versions.

    In addition, a while back I started a thread seeking to improve the basic armor laid out in the PHB, which seemed kind of "meh". If you are interested, follow the links in my extended sig.


    Ok, main problem with sunder in 3.5 D&D... it a)breaks loot, b)is one attack you aren't making on the opponents that are stabbing you, c) most monsters don't even have a weapon to sunder, and d)you can't mix it into a normal full attack. You fix none of those problems.

    Overrun
    REMOVED
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    There is already an mechanic for moving through enemy squares: it's called the Tumble skill. I don't really think we need a whole 'nother set of rules for that. I may rework a few minor aspects of Overrun into Bullrush (or the Imp. Bullrush feat) since the two actions are fairly similar.


    Good call

    Bullrush
    A Bullrush is a special attack made to push your opponent backwards. You can make a Bullrush as either a Move action or a Full-round action.

    Ok...

    You must announce if you are making a Bullrush before beginning any movement during your turn; your movement while Bullrushing is subject to the same limitations as when charging.
    Medium and Small characters must move at least 10 ft. to attempt a Bullrush; Large or bigger characters must move at least 15 ft.

    Hmm... so a horse takes the same space to charge as a taresque?

    You cannot take a 5 ft. step in the same round you attempt a Bullrush.

    This goes without saying... as this is a kind of "movment"...

    Bullrush as a Move Action
    You may move up to your normal movement speed and initiate your Bullrush attempt by moving into the space of any creature in your line of movement; this provokes an attack of opportunity from the creature as well as any other enemies who threaten you, as normal.

    Ok, seems reasonable,

    Your Bullrush bonus is equal to your BAB+Str modifier+special size modifier against your target's Bullrush AC (equal to Touch AC+special size modifier+Str). If you succeed, your target is pushed backwards 5 ft.

    Might want ot allow them to push further.

    If you fail, you must succeed on a Balance check (DC 20) or fall prone.

    Again with the flat DC... where did this number come from?

    Bullrush as a Full-Round
    You may move up to twice your normal movement speed and initiate your Bullrush attempt by moving into the space of any creature in your line of movement; this provokes an attack of opportunity from the creature as well as any other enemies who threaten you, as normal.

    So the charge version... ok lets see.

    Your Bullrush bonus is equal to your BAB+Str modifier+special size modifier against your target's Bullrush AC (equal to Touch AC+special size modifier+Str).
    If you fail, you must succeed on a Balance check (DC 20) or fall prone.

    Yes yes


    If you succeed, your target is pushed backwards 5 ft., and you may choose to again enter their square and make an opposed strength check to push them back further. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity from your target, though you may provoke AoO from other creatures.

    Why force them to follow? I mean, a giant dosn't need to follow a human when he body checks him I would think...

    Each time you succeed on a Strength check, you may push your target back another 5 ft. You may continue to push an opponent backwards until you have moved a total of twice your normal movement speed that round, or until you lose an opposed Strength check.

    Seems ok... but might get tedious.

    Spoiler
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    Overrun was very similar to Bullrush, and has been scrapped (as explained above). Also, WotC size limits where "one category bigger and down", while mine are "one category smaller and up". It seems like the mechanics of Bullrushing a housecat would make it into a different kind of attempt (attack roll to punt, maybe?), but who am I to say you can't Bullrush a dragon, if that's what you want to do.


    How can a dragon bull rush a human? Do you have rules for said punt?

    Shield Bash

    I don't know anything about shield bashing.


    Fighting Defensively
    You can begin or end fighting defensively as an immediate action at the beginning of a round in which you are not flat-footed, or at the end of your turn as a free action. You can remain in a defensive fighting stance as long as you wish, until the end of combat or the encounter.
    While fighting defensively, you gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC, and suffer a -4 penalty to all attack rolls. You also cannot Bullrush or Charge (or Pounce) while fighting defensively.

    Hmm... the AC is minimal and the penalty is big... Still reasonable I guess. Spell casters will generally be in this stance.

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    Ok, not much has changed here; except that defensive fighting is not really used as a standard or Full-round action any more. Basically, you can turn it on or off once per turn, so the effects are felt for at least one full round.
    If anyone can think of ways the player can shenanigan there way around the limitations, so that they can eliminate the penalty when attacking and still gain the bonus when they are defending, let me know.


    I mean, it is just +2 AC... call home about.

    Fighting Aggressively
    You can begin or end fighting aggressively as an immediate action at the beginning of a round in which you are not flat-footed, or at the end of your turn as a free action. You can remain in an aggressive fighting stance as long as you wish, until the end of combat or the encounter.
    While fighting aggressively, the critical threat range of your attacks is increased by 1, and you suffer a -4 penalty to your AC. You also cannot use Aid Another while fighting aggressively.

    Is the crit range bonus doubled on keen weapons? Also... -4 AC is a lot... like a Huge amount.

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    Since there was a defensive fighting form, it only seemed fair to have an offensive equivalent. The same general rules apply, and I hope it goes without saying that you can't fight both defensively and aggressively at the same time.


    Eh... this is not a huge benefit for a massive cost. Some might use it, but not many.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Combat Manuevers (PEACH)

    Regarding overrun:

    Tumble is all about moving through your opponent's space by dodging and dancing around him. Overrun is all about moving through your opponent's space by charging through his defences by sheer mass and momentum. Bull rush is about using mass and moment to knock your opponent over and/or knock him back.

    They are indeed three different actions. I can see a case for merging overrun and bull rush, but merging overrun and tumble makes no sense at all.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Combat Manuevers (PEACH)

    I love the revised manevuers, make more sense than the original!

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Combat Manuevers (PEACH)

    My reply to bobthe6th is spoilered for length
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    Feint
    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    Wait... do you mean they replace the ability modifying their AC/To Hit roll with the ability modifying sense motive/slight of hand, or are we talking full bonus? because the latter is broken as hell, while the former is a bit crazy. Wis isn't generally a dump stat, but most monster don't have a high bonus there. Admittedly this isn't as much of a bonus as the free weapon finesse... But still, weird.
    This was one of the first manuevers I worked on, and I was really trying to simplify it. I didn't like the original versionn because it ate up an entire action, and if your target either died to some one else's attack or ran away from you it could very easily be wasted. Even when it worked it didn't seem that good.

    This was basically my attempts to combine everything into one set of rolls that would resolve and be over with. As I mentioned to the last person who had similar comments, I'll try to come up with a more complex feinting option for the people who don't like this one.

    Trip
    Hmm... I think I see were you are going with this... (making the touch attack+opposed roll into a single roll) but I am not sure I like the result. Also, tripping still sucks at high levels as monsters get bigger.
    Yeah, but the alternative is a world where gnomes can reliablely trip T-rex's. If you don't mind a world the runs on Rule of Cool instead though, feel free to take that bit of the equation out.

    Hmm... I don't think I like this. Just a personal opinion.
    What don't you like about it? I thought that tripping AND getting in an attack as a Standard action was a bit much, but if you like I can change the wording so that you can choose to sacrifice your Move action for an attack AFTER you've seen whether the trip attempt was succesful or not.

    What is with balance and flat DCs...
    Ok, not a fan of the static DC. Other then that this looks good.
    Again with the flat DC... where did this number come from?
    Gonna respond to all of these at once.
    I wanted there to be some penalty for messing up on most of these manuevers, kind of like in the RAW, but simpler. Originally there where numerous different fluctuating values, resulting in a couple of different effects (for example I think the DC for disarm was =target's Str+BAB). Then Vadskye pointed out how complicated it was to always be messing around with unusual DC's, so I went through and tried to standardize things a little.

    Grapple
    You trying to stop the monks flurry grapple?
    Yes.
    Grappling is about grabbing hold of some one and dragging them down. Being able to smack them really fast doesn't help with that. Once you have some one grappled though you can use a full-round flurry as normal.

    Now I entirely sympathize with people that avoid the grapple rules... would not want to use if I could avoid it.
    The problem with grapple, is that unlike other Combat Manuevers, which are rolled for and then over and done with, grappling is an ongoing condition between two conjoined characters. So inevtiably, some one asks "how does grappling affect [normal action] that I would otherwise do?"
    I could change the rules I guess to only allow grapple and escape artist checks, but that makes it REALLY tough for certain characters to deal with being grappled, and the verisimilitude starts to break down.

    So as a result, it ends up looking almost like its own combat subsytem. I really don't expect anyone to memorize all the grapple rules; thats why they are clearly laid out in this handy-dandy chart.

    Disarm
    What about non weapon/shield items like an amulate... or a hat? Were are the rules for removing these from an opponents person?
    Does this happen often enough to actually need rules? It would probably involve some sort of Sunder to cut through the strap or hook holding it in place, but most likely it would still just fall to the ground then since most weapons aren't good at scooping things up.
    I'll have to think about it somewhat; in the meantime assume that attempting to snatch something off of a person is similar to an unarmed strike and go from there.

    Sunder
    Why not make this another "as a normal attack, but against a diffrent target" like trip or disarm?
    It just seemed like smashing weapons and armor was fundamentally different from normal attacks. Plus alot of weapons and armor are thin enough that they don't have a ton of HP, and 4 sunders in a single round could really mess up some one's gear.

    Also, metal and leather are a lot tougher than flesh; I kind of pictured this as taking a half step back and lining up a huge all-power/no-finesse style swing.

    Weapons are insta hits until high levels... give it a +10 for balances sake.
    Would that not make it too difficult at high levels? What about 10+1/2 BAB?

    Umm... why should my addimantine great sword shatter after I screw up 10 attacks on normal armor? Why not allow a free damage from the targeted item.
    You have to be pretty terribly to get to this point, failing both the sunder check and a relatively easy fortitude save (since most melee classes get good fort, I should probably bump it up to 20). Basically, you swung as hard as you could, you missed, and hit a rock at a really bad angle, which dents and chips your weapon.

    Needs rules for fixing equipment...
    Those where my original rules, until some one pointed out that the game already had rules, and mine necessitated keeping close track of HP for all your gear, and what penalties came with it.
    If there aren't already rules in place for fixing stuff, make up something simple, like: 1 hour Craft check (DC 15) to restore 1d8 HP to an item. DC 20 for magical gear, working with rare metals (adamantine, etc) increases DC by a further 5.

    Do you have a chance at breaking the natural weapons? otherwise, it sounds like you spend a full round action to make one attack that deals 25% of normal damage... the hell?
    I'll reword it, sorry. It was meant to be that the target takes 25% of your damage roll as HP damage, IN ADDITION to the normal sunder damage to their natural weapons.

    Bullrush
    Hmm... so a horse takes the same space to charge as a taresque?
    Yes. Yes it does. Funny how that works.
    People refer back to the rules often enough I didn't think they needed seperate distances for every size category, but I'll be happy to make up a chart, just for you.

    Minimum Distance required to Bull Rush

    Might want ot allow them to push further.
    How about 10 ft. if your check exceeds thiers by more than 5? This is just supposed to be a move action though; you can still make a normal attack after pushing some one back like this.

    Why force them to follow? I mean, a giant dosn't need to follow a human when he body checks him I would think...
    The idea was that you are continuing to push your opponent back, step by step. Think of football players pushing against one another.

    Seems ok... but might get tedious.
    Your right. I could change it to 10 ft. per check, which halves the number you'll need to make, but letting you move some one the full extent at a single check seemed a bit too powerful.

    How can a dragon bull rush a human?
    He can't. I'm not very clear on why it works one way and not the other, but basically I just imagined larger characters mostly tripping over smaller ones when they tried to tackle them.

    Do you have rules for said punt?
    Since that line was intended as a bit of humor, I do not. I will work on a new "Bodycheck" manuever to large characters wanting to knock around smaller ones.

    Hmm... the AC is minimal and the penalty is big... Still reasonable I guess. Spell casters will generally be in this stance.

    Eh... this is not a huge benefit for a massive cost. Some might use it, but not many.
    In my entire D&D career, I think I've seen Defensive Stance used exactly twice (and one of those times was me). Updating it and adding in the Aggressive version was really just so I could make them better in the feats I had planned out.

    They are intentionally weak because in both cases they are supposed to represent a total abandonment of a balanced combat style in attempt to eak out every small bit of either defense or damage.

    I hadn't really considered spellcasters using them though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    Regarding overrun:
    Tumble is all about moving through your opponent's space by dodging and dancing around him. Overrun is all about moving through your opponent's space by charging through his defences by sheer mass and momentum. Bull rush is about using mass and moment to knock your opponent over and/or knock him back.

    They are indeed three different actions. I can see a case for merging overrun and bull rush, but merging overrun and tumble makes no sense at all.
    Overrun is basically Bull Rush with a trip instead of strength checks. I didn't really think we needed a whole 'nother combat manuver for something like this. If you want to get past some one, you attempt a tumble and suck up the AoO if you fail.
    Attempting to knock them down and keep going seems like it should stop you pretty good, because unless you're going fast enough to seriously injure both parties, crashing into a similar sized object will seriously deplete your momentum.
    If you really can't play the game without this, make it a special ability of some large, massive creatures against smaller creatures, like Swallow Whole.

    But wait! My new Bodycheck manuever will involve knocking people down by sheer size and mass. Must be your lucky day.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2013-01-21 at 08:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Combat Manuevers (PEACH)

    So, now it's time for me to go back and eat my own words.

    I messed around with several different ideas for a Bodycheck manuever, and I didn't really like any of them. Plus I'm still convinved that I already represented pretty much all the reasonable forms of combat manuever.

    Slamming into someone and knocking them down is a Trip.
    Charging into someone and pushing them aside is Bullrush.
    Smacking someone to knock them aside should be an unarmed strike.

    And I have been thinking about what Ashtagon said, and it does make sense that large creatures should be able to rush past smaller ones. So I've written up a very short, very simple rule for Overrun. (ok, it should really be titled the Overrun exception since it modifies an existing rule, but that doesn't roll off the tongue quite as easily)


    I've also put up an option for a more involved feinting procedure for those people who didn't like my first attempt.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2013-02-02 at 01:24 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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