Dungeon crawl RPGs?

[Togath]

One thing that a recent thread(link) made me wonder; how common is the dungeon crawl style of play for tabletop rpgs?, I had assumed near universal until that thread, but the thread made me wonder if I should I add something to the description of the rpg I'm working on explaining it's meant for mainly dungeon crawl games and whatever the term for something dungeon crawl style that is above ground and open world?
edit; also, is there a list of common styles for various rpgs in general?, So I could understand terms better

[BootStrapTommy]

Dungeon crawls are common. Just some of us like to play campaigns which have a bit more of a focus on non-combat skills and PC development.

Truthfully I'd say, you'd more likely want to let people know if it wasn't a dungeon crawl than know that it is one.

[Yora]

Truthfully I'd say, you'd more likely want to let people know if it wasn't a dungeon crawl than know that it is one.

I would say the opposite is true.

I really think it depends entirely on the group. Some people do, some people don't. Telling how many is probably impossible.

[Togath]

I main reason i was asking is because the system is combat rule heavy, and my intention was that a gm could just come up with how to handle a non-combat, non-dungeoncrawl situation, though i wasn't really sure if i needed to put that in it's description or not(the system does have skills like in dungeons and dragons so those can help soemwhat with non-dungeoncrawl senarioes)

[Knaight]

I only vaguely remember the last time I was involved in anything that could be called a dungeon crawl. Even the more high combat campaigns almost never have them. When it comes to the dungeon crawl staples of traps, riddles and such, those are even less common - maybe a character will string up a trip wire if they're being pursued through a forest to try and ambush their pursuit when they topple, and maybe a player will play a poet or something and verge onto riddles within dialog, but that's about it.

[Totally Guy]

I think it's a good thing to say what your game is about.

If it's about dungeon crawling then I would judge it on how well it handles dungeon crawling.

If you say "this is a game about anything within this setting", whilst providing only tools for dungeon crawling then the game I thought I would be playing would not match the game I'd actually be playing.

You've got to say what you do and do what you say.

[Morty]

When I played D&D, I took part in only one adventure that could be called a dungeon crawl. When I moved on to other systems, I obviously ceased to participate in dungeon crawls altogether. So from my experience - no, dungeon crawls are not common at all.

[prufock]

Our games usually are plot-focused rather than combat-focused. That isn't to say we don't have a lot of combat encounters; we have about 2-3 per game (one or two big ones, or a couple minor ones and one biggie). While we sometimes do venture into dungeon-type environments, it's rarely what I would call a "dungeon crawl" (room-by-room combat encounter, search for traps, get the door open, etc).

However we have a tradition of doing a Tomb of Horrors session each October. That may change this year, though. I think the group is getting sick of it.

[kamikasei]

Dungeon crawls are presumably common in D&D and D&D-likes, though they're not the exclusive focus and any popular system is going to get used for things outside their focus anyway. So that can be taken to cover the various editions of D&D, Pathfinder, Legend, clones of older editions like Castles & Crusades, etc. Slayers d20, maybe. As a proportion of all the games out there, I'm not sure how large this group would be.

There are generic systems which could be used to run dungeon crawls but which have no particular inclination towards it and may be ill-suited for it. GURPS, Mutants and Masterminds, FATE and derivatives. (Something like Spirit of the Century may well include exploration of an ancient ruin in search of treasure, but I'd be hesitant to call a game that plays out like Raiders of the Lost Ark a "dungeon crawl".)

Some games have focuses that would be completely thrown off by spending all your time either underground in a treasure-filled deathtrap or trying to sell off what you found in the deathtrap. World of Darkness old and new (Vampire, Werewolf, Mage etc.), Exalted, Scion, Legend of Five Rings. Weapons of the Gods, Legends of the Wulin. Pendragon. A Game of Thrones. Bliss Stage. Amber Diceless Roleplaying. In Nomine. Nobilis. Seventh Sea.

In other words: I'd guess that handily the majority of game titles aren't meant for dungeon crawls and/or would be really ill-suited to running such a game. If your game has a particular focus, it's only sensible to state it explicitly so people know what they're getting in to.

And again, you should really be playing more different RPGs before trying to make your own. You should at least be reading up on a lot of them even if you don't have the time to play them. D&D is actually quite unusual in a lot of ways and taking it as your baseline and assumed default will give you a distorted view (and probably result in a game that doesn't achieve what you wanted).

[Kiero]

I like combat just fine, I hate dungeon-crawling. I don't like fights in indoor environments much, underground even less so. I hate trapfinding, mapping and "check everything with a 10' pole". I hate the list-focused mentality around "did you bring the right stuff" and tracking encumbrance to see if you've filled your pockets already and need to leave to collapse the local economy with your gains.

What's the point in me coming up with a character who's vaguely credible as a person, with ties to the world in which they exist, if 95% of the game is going to be spent in a hole in the ground? Where likely the only contact with the surface world is to sell off loot and buy new equipment, or travel to the next dungeon? Granted that's an exaggeration, but it isn't far off the crawl-focused mentality.

They're invariably just an excuse to string meaningless fight after meaningless fight with little context or respect for ecology. Kill monsters, get XP and treasure, rinse and repeat. Zzzzzzz.

[some guy]

My games are usually a mix between city-, wilderness- and dungeon crawl. Sometimes with a bit of wave-crawl thrown in there for good measure.

I sometimes run dungeon crawl exclusive one shots, but one shote are quite likely to be mixed as well.

EDIT: those are the games I run, but the games I play in, are usually a mix as well.

Judging by the name, I guess Dungeon Crawl Classics would fit a dungeon crawl game quite well. I believe it's a 3.5 hack/ OSR -mix-type-thingie-system. I hear awesome things about it, but I've never played it.

[Togath]

If it helps figure out whether I should specifically state that it's meant for dungeon crawl or not, the second least magical melee class(meant to act like a fighter, or some other generic melee brute guy) gains at will wingless flight, a large number of elemental blasting spells(all of which can be switched between frost, fire, and lightning, or manifest as a blast of slashing wind), a breath weapon somewhat like a dragon, the ability to lower and/or cut through damage resistance(which does what it sounds like), they can also use any weapon, but are most skilled with two handed melee, or with unarmed, longbows, or rifles. I wasn't sure if something with those aspects could fit into non-dungeon crawl campaign or not, which is why I started asking.
The system also has rules for improvising weapons, and uses a system of abilities gained by points to gain non automatic abilities(which may be a point-buy system of gaining them, though I'm not 100% sure what point-buy is, as most examples I found didn't have levels for some reason and a lot of people talk about class/level and point buy being 100% seperate[though most video games along with dungeons and dragons seem to have both]).
edit: I also have started looking into some non-dnd rpgs, so far i've taken a look at: gurps(quickstart), call-of-Cthulu(quickstart, the one with the short adventure), mutants and masterminds(the intro of the srd), and some of the legend of the five rings rpg.

[tensai_oni]

No of course such abilities will never be useful in a non-dungeon crawl game. After all as everyone knows, combat happens only and exclusively in dungeon crawls.

[kamikasei]

I wasn't sure if something with those aspects could fit into non-dungeon crawl campaign or not, which is why I started asking.

That just lists a bunch of ways to do damage in combat, and one general ability, flight. Nothing about any of that suggests a focus on dungeon crawling.

The system also has rules for improvising weapons, and uses a system of abilities gained by points to gain non automatic abilities(which may be a point-buy system of gaining them, though I'm not 100% sure what point-buy is, as most examples I found didn't have levels for some reason and a lot of people talk about class/level and point buy being 100% seperate[though most video games along with dungeons and dragons seem to have both]).

I know it must seem like I'm harping on this but it really cannot be said enough.

Put your work in progress down and go read up on (and ideally gain play experience with) a vaguely representative range of different systems and game types. Stop assuming D&D is the default.

For example, I honestly have no idea why you would think "point buy" and class or level have anything to do with one another. Even in D&D, they don't.

[Togath]

I have/had started to do some research, but I haven't read much, as I cant find GURPS, white-wolf games, CoC, or shadowrun very interesting, due to low power levels, and abstract advancement.
I also dont understand why having classes and/or levels is a bad thing.
I sorry if i keep going around in circles, i'm very confused is the main thing.

[kamikasei]

Now, I don't know about CoC or Shadowrun, but from my understanding of GURPS and White Wolf games "abstract advancement" is a very strange criticism. You pay a cost in XP to gain new abilities. That seems a lot more concrete to me than "your level increases, which gives you general bonuses to things like how likely you are to hit and how much damage you can soak up, and maybe a special ability now and then". I'm also under the impression that GURPS is extremely open-ended as far as power level goes, and White Wolf games include Exalted and Scion where low power level is... not a common criticism.

There are a lot of criticisms to be made of class and level based systems and a lot of reasons many people don't like them, but the issue isn't so much that they're bad as that, if you take them as a given, you'll have no basis for comparison as to what works well with them and what doesn't.

(The simple criticisms: why have a class when you can simply be an individual character with certain abilities? Why have levels when you can simply advance directly by acquiring new abilities?)

[Togath]

I may look into exalted, then, I had just assumed it was low power level like world of darkness.

if you take them as a given, you'll have no basis for comparison as to what works well with them and what doesn't.

Once I try looking at exalted I ought to have a decent idea, though I do still prefer level systems, so I will probably go with one, the system does have most of it's abiltiies available to different classes though(the main spell caster can learn unarmed combat just as easily as the knight), and the classes are vague(or something, they seem the same as dnd classes to me, the generic class variant anyway. You gain some abilities[basic spells or a theme] but most of your abilities are from spending points in learning them from various "technique trees" and "spell schools". The example I gave above was the first prototype class I made for this system, and is a bit clunky, but the second is mostly a few themed abilities[9 total] proficiencies, and base HP and MP per level[though both hp and mp are mostly effected by your stats], and the reason I made two classes was mainly to figure out how the layout for them might look, and to experiment with scaling)
edit: I also decided to add an in character explaination for experience points, in that they represent the absorbed souls of fallen enemies, the system's fluff is also based around force of will and willpower, which can help explain gainign new abilities

[Knaight]

I may look into exalted, then, I had just assumed it was low power level like world of darkness.

It's not. Exalted is the sort of game that features the player characters throwing the Midgard serpent through Kilimanjaro when their assortment of artifacts just isn't good enough. It is also a mechanical nightmare that I would never recommend a game designer to try and learn from.

[Kiero]

It's not. Exalted is the sort of game that features the player characters throwing the Midgard serpent through Kilimanjaro when their assortment of artifacts just isn't good enough. It is also a mechanical nightmare that I would never recommend a game designer to try and learn from.

I agree entirely. Exalted's mechanics are only useful to a game designer as a cautionary tale.

[Togath]

I've started to see what you guys meant with soem non-dnd rpgs are different from soemthign such as dnd, I've been reading through pathfinder recently and even it's(a little) different(it also mad eme realise i hadn't actually read the rules of pathfinder, and had just assumed it worked like 3.5)

[Tengu_temp]

I've started to see what you guys meant with soem non-dnd rpgs are different from soemthign such as dnd, I've been reading through pathfinder recently and even it's(a little) different(it also mad eme realise i hadn't actually read the rules of pathfinder, and had just assumed it worked like 3.5)

Dude, Pathfinder is a clone of 3.5 with some changes. It's a (mostly) better game, but it's still more or less the same thing. Other RPGs are way different.

[Knaight]

I've started to see what you guys meant with soem non-dnd rpgs are different from soemthign such as dnd, I've been reading through pathfinder recently and even it's(a little) different(it also mad eme realise i hadn't actually read the rules of pathfinder, and had just assumed it worked like 3.5)

If you are trying to branch out slowly, I'd recommend trying Mutants and Masterminds. It is still a d20 system, it still has skills, feats, and powers, and up until 3e it used the same attributes. However, it has several major changes that are worth looking at. Most notably, it is a completely point buy system with no levels, where you have a shared pool of points for everything, and on top of that it doesn't use HP. It is also a superhero game, which should meet your preference for high powered systems.

Incidentally, Pathfinder is pretty much 3.501, and is much closer to 3.5 than 3.0 is, let alone any other edition of D&D. If you really want something really different, take a look at Dread or Fiasco. Those don't even have character statistics, and Dread uses a Jenga tower instead of dice.

[Togath]

I'll probably look into mutants and masterminds then, as it seems easier to go with both something soemwhat like dungeons and dragons(so i can understand it better), and something i dont have to go out and buy the base rulebooks for

[Yora]

Dude, Pathfinder is a clone of 3.5 with some changes. It's a (mostly) better game, but it's still more or less the same thing. Other RPGs are way different.

Mouse Guard or Burning Wheel in general. That's an entirely different concept.

[Knaight]

I'll probably look into mutants and masterminds then, as it seems easier to go with both something soemwhat like dungeons and dragons(so i can understand it better), and something i dont have to go out and buy the base rulebooks for

You'll probably have to buy the base rulebook, but it is all of one book, and you should be able to get it used for relatively cheap*. Just make sure you get 2e.

*It was 10 dollars new for a while after 3e came out, so under 10 dollars used should be very doable.

[Kiero]

I'll probably look into mutants and masterminds then, as it seems easier to go with both something soemwhat like dungeons and dragons(so i can understand it better), and something i dont have to go out and buy the base rulebooks for

If you're serious about writing your own RPG, go spend some time reading some of the hundreds of free RPGs on John Kim's index.