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  1. - Top - End - #991
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    He was actually going to use a straight square progression; the Fibonacci progression was my idea.

    And yeah, SilverOuts make me sad. Since one of the ideas behind Grammarie was that it gave a way to do most of the things that spellcasting could do to the world...

    It feels kinda disingenuous to have that be because you can just duplicate magic.
    Especially considering how it's available straight away as one of the basic transformers available.

  2. - Top - End - #992
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    He was actually going to use a straight square progression; the Fibonacci progression was my idea.
    Then you my friend are a genius

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    And yeah, SilverOuts make me sad. Since one of the ideas behind Grammarie was that it gave a way to do most of the things that spellcasting could do to the world...
    Thoughts on limiting spell level use?
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  3. - Top - End - #993
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    He was actually going to use a straight square progression; the Fibonacci progression was my idea.
    Hmm, I looked over the numbers, and that does seem more reasonable for upper levels stuff. (Comparing Fib on caster level with square on spell level, use minimum caster level.) At lower levels, I think it makes sense to make the cost of casting, say, a fireball per round higher rather than lower.

    Perhaps the cap should be the same as wands, and be fourth level? This is, after all, "free" magic every round. Limiting the spell level further forces some more creative uses of other parts of grammarie, but still allows a lot of useful magical effects. Gird your army in Mage Armor, for instance.

    Hmm. Spell per round gets me thinking… what about a silverOut that spams Unseen Servant? Hour duration means that once you've warmed it up for an hour and keep that up, you can maintain 600 of them. At strength of 2 each, that's an effective 1200 strength. Move something of up to 6 tons at 15 ft/round on a budget of 1 ebb/round. We can move 30 tons at 5 ft/round on that same budget. Get metamagic Extend on that (increasing warmup time), use two transformers, and you can start hauling all kinds of things. (AoE is going to take all of that out, of course.)

  4. - Top - End - #994
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by QuidEst View Post
    Hmm. Spell per round gets me thinking… what about a silverOut that spams Unseen Servant? Hour duration means that once you've warmed it up for an hour and keep that up, you can maintain 600 of them. At strength of 2 each, that's an effective 1200 strength. Move something of up to 6 tons at 15 ft/round on a budget of 1 ebb/round. We can move 30 tons at 5 ft/round on that same budget. Get metamagic Extend on that (increasing warmup time), use two transformers, and you can start hauling all kinds of things. (AoE is going to take all of that out, of course.)
    Why waste time? Just use Servant Hoard (1 unseen servant/cl meaning 5 per round). Sure it's costly, but its and easy way to create free labor in a setting where using BIOY constructs as free labor is illegal
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  5. - Top - End - #995
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    Why waste time? Just use Servant Hoard (1 unseen servant/cl meaning 5 per round). Sure it's costly, but its and easy way to create free labor in a setting where using BIOY constructs as free labor is illegal
    I assume you mean "Horde"? Never heard of either, but "Hoard" is as in "big pile of gold on which a dragon sleeps".

    Which would be funny, if there was someone who collected and hoarded different variations on the Unseen Servant effect.
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  6. - Top - End - #996
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    "Hoard" is as in "big pile of gold on which a dragon sleeps".
    Someone rang?

    Anywho, What is this "Unseen Horde" Spell?
    "All things must end, and you will be among the first."
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    You've got good reasoning, though the Akastarepti is never the best example.

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  7. - Top - End - #997
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    Why waste time? Just use Servant Hoard (1 unseen servant/cl meaning 5 per round). Sure it's costly, but its and easy way to create free labor in a setting where using BIOY constructs as free labor is illegal
    Don't forget the 2d6 they throw on for free. And 1/cl means 9, since that's the lowest caster level for a fifth-level spell. That puts it at 16 servants/round.

    Well, depending on the formula used for caster level, it may or may not be better to make several silverOut transformers and split the ebbs up. The thing I like about using boring ol' Unseen Servant is that it's an extremely common spell, and only first level. By the time you can get Servant Horde, you should be doing much more broken things with a SilverOut.

  8. - Top - End - #998
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    My suggestion is that we shouldn't even have a transformer that takes in and outputs spells, since, unlike the rest of the transformers (with the exception of the specialty Doctorate ones), spells aren't intrinsic to all settings.

    I've seen a ton of people run campaigns where arcane magic was rare, and psionics was the name of the game; so, in other words, I think, if anything Silver needs to be something more intrinsic.

    I have a draft somewhere for Silver transformers that take in and output emotion, and I have scraps for ones that would process food, water, blood, health, and sleep, so...

    Because the magic one, if it exists, should not be the most basic way to get energy for your projects. It should come a bit later, if at all.

    In my opinion.
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  9. - Top - End - #999
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    My main beef with silver outputs is their lack of self-sufficiency, without a friendly spellcaster, all they do is turn is turn ebbs into Eldritch Blasts.In direct contrast to how with almost everything else, you can cloister yourself away from everyone else and not be seen of for a while once you have the materials (unless you're trying something crazy that requires cooperating with multiple different types of specialists).

    Also, just something a tad bit odd I wanted to point out to check for intentionality: Iron (and thus phlogistan) melts at a little over 1500 (my memory says 1536, but I'm not sure). If you're a contractor with Phlegmatic Phlogistan, it will heat itself up to 2000 degrees S, by default, Phlematic Phlogistan is naturally molten, unless you use some alchemetry to raise its melting point to high levels.
    On the bright side, these means my super-hot-super-soldier idea from a few pages back can be attained, just now requires a PRC ability, instead of just specialization. The one about "hot but not molten", of course.
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  10. - Top - End - #1000
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    fibonacci has a closed-form solution.

  11. - Top - End - #1001
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    fibonacci has a closed-form solution.
    True, but not a useful one. It's harder to compute by hand than the recursive implementation.

  12. - Top - End - #1002
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by QuidEst View Post
    True, but not a useful one. It's harder to compute by hand than the recursive implementation.
    the recursive implementation is significantly harder without memoization. we just happen to be able to make the recursive implementation linear by memoization because we know that the fibonacci mapping is a function.

    we could theoretically do that in finite space, but I'd think most of us begin with a known pair and do out the calculations on paper without erasing, which makes for essentially linear space. (it's ... more like quadratic, because number length, but.)

    a naďve recursive implementation, if you cared to work it out, takes O(fib) time and O(fib) space.

    the close-form solution with exponentiation should be somewhere around O(ln n) to compute, but just has a really huge constant hidden in the O-notation for most of us.

  13. - Top - End - #1003
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    -snip-
    There is a time and place for O notation- having it show up in D&D is usually a bad sign. XP

    That's not going to happen.

  14. - Top - End - #1004
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by QuidEst View Post
    There is a time and place for O notation- having it show up in D&D is usually a bad sign. XP

    That's not going to happen.
    hm, I wonder what a god kills when cs comes up!

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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    People who are bad at math!

    So there are more of us left.

    And, for those that are curious, I suggested Sigma Fibonacci. Because I like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
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  16. - Top - End - #1006
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    I suggested Sigma Fibonacci. Because I like it.
    Chemistry has beaten the "bad at math" out of me I'm afraid

    Unfortunately I am not versed in Sigma, mind giving me a crash course? (PM me)
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  17. - Top - End - #1007
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    Chemistry has beaten the "bad at math" out of me I'm afraid

    Unfortunately I am not versed in Sigma, mind giving me a crash course? (PM me)
    Sigmas are used for sums, so Sigma Fibonacci simply uses calculation by summation. (Or adding numbers, if you're willing to pass up a perfectly good rhyme.)

  18. - Top - End - #1008
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by QuidEst View Post
    Sigmas are used for sums, so Sigma Fibonacci simply uses calculation by summation. (Or adding numbers, if you're willing to pass up a perfectly good rhyme.)
    Ah, I've always just referred to it as adding. Well that's humiliating
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  19. - Top - End - #1009
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    Ah, I've always just referred to it as adding. Well that's humiliating
    (Don't worry- I always did as well. XP)

  20. - Top - End - #1010
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Wow. Just.... Just.... Wow.
    This is amazing. All of it. It all interacts! All of it. I shudder to think of the effort that must have gone into creating all this... But.... Wow. All I can say. I've just started a thread for a low level Gramaire game, in the PBP forum. Thank you for making this awesome stuff.

    Questions: Can you add a transformer to biostructure? Can you add biostructure to yourself? Can you add Eldrikinetic engines to biostructure, and thus yourself?
    I'm thinking of going Biolurgy specialist, with a hearty sprinkling of transformers and engines. Being able to add them to creatures intrinsically would help.
    I'm also on the Bay12 Games forums under the same username.

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  21. - Top - End - #1011
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverbit View Post
    Wow. Just.... Just.... Wow.
    This is amazing. All of it. It all interacts! All of it. I shudder to think of the effort that must have gone into creating all this... But.... Wow. All I can say. I've just started a thread for a low level Gramaire game, in the PBP forum. Thank you for making this awesome stuff.

    Questions: Can you add a transformer to biostructure? Can you add biostructure to yourself? Can you add Eldrikinetic engines to biostructure, and thus yourself?
    I'm thinking of going Biolurgy specialist, with a hearty sprinkling of transformers and engines. Being able to add them to creatures intrinsically would help.
    Answers (hopefully correct ones too! ): Yes, but only if it started as the appropriate metal. I don't think an official ruling was made on this, but probably. Same as with transformers.

    Note: The average human takes up a total volume of two cubic feet. To add engines or transformers would a) add 50% of the persons volume to them again for only one and b) add hundreds of pounds of weight the person's own muscles would have to hold up. Not the best of ideas.

  22. - Top - End - #1012
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnicrat View Post
    To add engines or transformers would a) add 50% of the persons volume to them again for only one and b) add hundreds of pounds of weight the person's own muscles would have to hold up. Not the best of ideas.
    a) I'd say replace rather than add.
    b) You can reduce the weight of the metal before it becomes biostructure using Alchemetry.
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Thanks for the replies. Can you add biostructure to living creatures, and then mutate it? It might be an easy way of adding grafts. Or I could be completely misunderstanding the Biollurgy stuff, in relation to PCs.
    I'm also on the Bay12 Games forums under the same username.

    The awesome Ceika made both my avatars! All hail!
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  24. - Top - End - #1014
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverbit View Post
    Questions: Can you add a transformer to biostructure? Can you add biostructure to yourself? Can you add Eldrikinetic engines to biostructure, and thus yourself?
    I'm thinking of going Biolurgy specialist, with a hearty sprinkling of transformers and engines. Being able to add them to creatures intrinsically would help.
    We've established that biostructure from something like carmot or sunmetal retains its properties. So while you probably can't add an engine to biostructure, you might be able to turn one into biostructure without ruining it.

    Unfortunately, weight will be a huge problem. Let's say you want a simply orthogonal engine- that's made of iron. You need a cubic foot of it (which is going to be large and unwieldily anyway). That's 491 pounds. If you found an Alchemetrist managed a Diplomacy check of 100 (enough to start casually wiping out cities when you please), you could reduce that to 49 pounds, which is still rather inconvenient. All of the materials listed have the same problem, or cannot have their weight reduced. You could get a submerging engine attached, but that is not very useful. (Note that turning yourself into a submerging engine would drain all the blood from yourself.)

  25. - Top - End - #1015
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Hm. How have I only just noticed that high level Shadowrights can be radioactive and explode like a radiomantic material?

    Hm, now I'm thinking about how using Unorthodox Triggers and attaching sufficiently charged orichalcum as a kind of dead-man's switch thing as a deterrent from attacking him (if you've read Snow Crash, a bit like Raven).
    Last edited by Volthawk; 2013-01-09 at 10:10 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #1016
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Volthawk View Post
    Hm. How have I only just noticed that high level Shadowrights can be radioactive and explode like a radiomantic material?

    Hm, now I'm thinking about how using Unorthodox Triggers and attaching sufficiently charged orichalcum as a kind of dead-man's switch thing as a deterrent from attacking him (if you've read Snow Crash, a bit like Raven).
    There's also the low-budget version. If they instead carry a small piece of fully charged Ruby filter stored in an extradimensional space to keep it safe, they can set it off with just a little cold damage, dealing 1000d6 fire damage to a radius just shy of a mile. Since Shadowright can get immunity to fire, they can survive it.

  27. - Top - End - #1017
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by QuidEst View Post
    There's also the low-budget version. If they instead carry a small piece of fully charged Ruby filter stored in an extradimensional space to keep it safe, they can set it off with just a little cold damage, dealing 1000d6 fire damage to a radius just shy of a mile. Since Shadowright can get immunity to fire, they can survive it.
    True, there are other ways, but eh, I like the idea of having the capacity of being a walking nuke. Also, raw fire damage has it's limitations, fire immunity being the biggie (also, it doesn't quite kill the land like a radiomantic bomb).

    Probably a silly question, but eh - does detonating kill you? What about if you're a Shadowright 10 and thus have immunity to the negative levels and damage from a radiomantic detonation?

  28. - Top - End - #1018
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by Volthawk View Post
    True, there are other ways, but eh, I like the idea of having the capacity of being a walking nuke. Also, raw fire damage has it's limitations, fire immunity being the biggie (also, it doesn't quite kill the land like a radiomantic bomb).
    By the way, where does it include the detonation bit? I couldn't find that.

  29. - Top - End - #1019
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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by QuidEst View Post
    By the way, where does it include the detonation bit? I couldn't find that.
    Emphasis mine.

    Frequent: At 9th level, you gain frequent vision. Just as fast as the speed of light is the speed of the darkness that it casts. With your sight moving at such speeds, how can mortal barriers obstruct you? As a free action, you can turn this ability on or off; while active, you can see through obstacles within 120ft. of you. You can choose how many layers to penetrate inside of the area of effect. Lead is the only thing that blocks your vision; however, while this ability is active, you give off radiation like a radiomantic metal with the same volume as your body (and can explode like one).

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    Default Re: She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

    Quote Originally Posted by QuidEst View Post
    Unfortunately, weight will be a huge problem. Let's say you want a simply orthogonal engine- that's made of iron. You need a cubic foot of it (which is going to be large and unwieldily anyway). That's 491 pounds. If you found an Alchemetrist managed a Diplomacy check of 100 (enough to start casually wiping out cities when you please), you could reduce that to 49 pounds, which is still rather inconvenient. All of the materials listed have the same problem, or cannot have their weight reduced.
    You don't have to make that giant check all at once. You free to reduce its density by a smaller amount multiple times. Although, looking at that raises a question for me: when it says the density is "altered by a factor", does that means it's added/ subtracted (so getting a result of one is pretty much useless), or is it multiplied/divided (in which case getting a one is very useful, since this results in a factor of 1/10).
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