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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Thanks, DaggerPen. Much appreciated. I too have recently dared brave other threads, and after some not-too-fun back-and-forths, I think I will once again retreat to this one (and the Girl Genius one).
    Probably a wise decision.



    Can't answer your actual question, since I don't have the required encyclopedic knowledge of the 3.5 spell system, but I want to point out again, for the record, that it is already a stretch to assume MitD cause the first downpour (although that one could easily be explained by Control Weather).

    It is even a larger stretch to posit that MitD caused the second downpour. The cutaway shows the downpour already in process, and a quite happily sleeping O-Chul, unlike the first time when it is suggested that MitD causes the rain because O-Chul is starting to feel sleepy. Add to that the distance and uncertain location (even if the cloister wasn't in the way), and I doubt anything short of Wish can actually explain it, unless we also add a number of supporting spells to extend range of casting and determine location.

    Grey Wolf
    It does seem like a stretch that he caused the second downpour; it'd be nice to be able to rule it out as a viable clue, though, since we're discussing it regardless.

    I mean, really, we spent 3 pages discussing medieval woodworking. Taking a moment to figure out if it's at all possible isn't unreasonable. XD
    Last edited by DaggerPen; 2013-03-13 at 09:05 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #422
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    This is the only thread in the OotS subforum I will post in. Just sayin'.

    Regarding weather control, I think you got pretty much everything, DaggerPen. There's not may options for friendly, gentle rain in D&D
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  3. - Top - End - #423
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    I had a thought: Something was said that has two possible interpretations, one of which isn't mentioned in the first post.

    Xykon says "There's nothing in there any scarier than you. Correction, any scarier than you SHOULD be".

    What if that's not just a jab at his lack of killer instinct?

    What if it's a comment about him having a misleading CR? That is, he's not as scary as his CR would let on?

    There are more than a few critters with wildly inappropriate listed CRs, especially if templates get in the mix (I still favor a lightly templated Efreet for MitD -- the Efreet's wish granting ability fits far too well for the "hard parts" of explaining MitD).

    For example, a Pseudonatural Efreet would be CR21 but V could probably kill it single handed, with a bit of luck and going in prepared. Throw Paragon on that and it's CR 36, and incredibly nasty but nowhere near what a CR36 creature should be capable of.

  4. - Top - End - #424
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Schadrach View Post
    ...What if it's a comment about him having a misleading CR? That is, he's not as scary as his CR would let on?...
    That seems fairly meta. I read it more as a reflection of his probably inappropriate child-like innocence. As if (simile, not a real suggestion) a Demon that was raised by bunnies since being created/born/whatever. So while it should be trying to rip your soul out all it wants to do is share its carrots.

    Which ties in decently with recognizing the Astral plane but not knowing if he's been there. And I'm not saying it's definitely the raised-inappropriately theme; it could be some form of amnesia (accidental, tragedy-related, victimized, whatever). More general reasons he doesn't know what he really is, which I think he's directly alluded to talking to O-Chul.

    I'm not saying that it's definitely not CR-related; I just view it as part of the 'doesn't know what he is' backstory. If Xykon (or more likely Redcloak) actually knew he had an inappropriate CR, why would they even keep him around? They seem to think he might actually perform up to his potential. If you're right, they should know he never would and then we have the question of 'What do they want him for, anyway' added to the list.

  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Schadrach View Post
    I had a thought: Something was said that has two possible interpretations, one of which isn't mentioned in the first post.
    Technically, neither interpretation is mentioned in the first post. The CR analysis lothos did was partially based on "scarier than you should be", but it is linked, not mentioned. It also has the strong evidence that MitD is intended to be a force to be reckoned with, from the tower and the earthquake scenes plus word of author.

    Also, how would this work? So the CR is too high... i.e. the creature someone proposes is not a challenge to the group, even though its CR would suggest it is. Why would someone suggest it in the first place? Wouldn't it make more sense to be looking for creatures that do indeed fit the tower scene? In a less metatextual analysis, why would RC recruit a creature weaker than it should be? The straight reading of the scene suggests that the problem is with MitD, not his species.

    In the end, it is up to the individual proposal to justify such things. If the CR is not representative (although I'd think the more likely scenario would be a CR much too low for the proposal's actual abilities), then the proposing poster can justify this: e.g. "Sure, my idea has a CR of only 8, but it can wish itself to strength 50, so even if it gives piddly XP, it can still punch a horse through a wall" (note that such example, if one existed, would fail the tower for reasons other than CR).

    Grey Wolf
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2013-03-14 at 02:42 PM. Reason: Made my examples more impersonal to reduce ambiguity of meaning
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  6. - Top - End - #426
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    So, I was reading over the psionic rules, and I saw this:

    Vigorous Motion

    If you are riding on a moving mount, taking a bouncy ride in a wagon, on a small boat in rough water, belowdecks in a storm-tossed ship, or simply being jostled in a similar fashion, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the power youíre manifesting) or lose the power.
    I don't have SOD- when MitD tipped over his cage in order to grab the bucket, he was being carried somehow, right? If MitD was accustomed to grabbing things psionically, is it possible that he was being jostled enough that he might have failed a concentration check to grab the bucket and just decided to grab it the old-fashioned way? MitD does not exactly have the best concentration abilities- he may have trouble making a check like this, but have no trouble moving small objects under his own power under normal circumstances.

    EDIT:

    Also of note:

    Psionic powers can have a variety of displays, including:

    Olfactory

    An odd but familiar odor brings to mind a brief mental flash of a long-buried memory. The scent is difficult to pin down, and no two individuals ever describe it the same way. The odor originates from the manifester and spreads to a distance of 20 feet, then fades in less than a second (or lasts for the duration, at the manifesterís option).
    Is it possible that MitD's referred to odor may be something along these lines?
    Last edited by DaggerPen; 2013-03-14 at 07:08 PM.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    I don't have SOD- when MitD tipped over his cage in order to grab the bucket, he was being carried somehow, right?
    Sorry, no, nothing like that. His box is in a low cart, having been left there by RC when his nephew distracts him for a minute. The rocking does cause him to move the cart, but that is the result, not the cause, of the cage tip.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    Is it possible that MitD's referred to odor may be something along these lines?
    It has been mentioned occasionally, together with shinning of his eyes as a visual psionic clue. His smell doesn't seem to be accompanied by any obvious psionic power, though.

    Grey Wolf
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Sorry, no, nothing like that. His box is in a low cart, having been left there by RC when his nephew distracts him for a minute. The rocking does cause him to move the cart, but that is the result, not the cause, of the cage tip.
    Ah, darn! And I thought for sure I had something there, heh. Well then, back to the drawing board on that one.


    It has been mentioned occasionally, together with shinning of his eyes as a visual psionic clue. His smell doesn't seem to be accompanied by any obvious psionic power, though.

    Grey Wolf
    The only thing I could think of would be him moving objects, but that falls prey to the "if he can move objects without touching them, why did he tip the cage?" question.

    On the subject of psionics, I decided to go through and make a list of psionic abilities that could explain the escape:


    Bend reality

    Dream Travel. Though MitD was asleep when O-Chul and V escaped, this one is a pretty big stretch, and is only included for the sake of completeness.


    Reality Revision



    Teleport, Psionic


    Teleport, Psionic Greater

    Teleportation Circle can explicitly transfer others, but it has a 10-minute manifestation time and requires the caster to draw a circle, so no go.

    Also of note is that there is a psionic Stomp ability, but it doesn't really have appropriate effects for the earthquake.
    Last edited by DaggerPen; 2013-03-14 at 07:43 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #429
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html

    "I don't think Xykon has any love to earn at all, Tsukiko"

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html

    "I'm really sad now, she just wanted to be loved."

    These statements are unusually perceptive for the typically daft Mitd. If he doesn't have the wisdom score to back that kind of empathy up, could he have some kind of mindreading/emphatic ability?

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    Teleportation Circle can explicitly transfer others, but it has a 10-minute manifestation time and requires the caster to draw a circle, so no go.

    Technically the go board might count here,. especially if they got scattered during the fight. Not likely IMHO, but thought i'd mention that.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Throknor View Post
    As if (simile, not a real suggestion) a Demon that was raised by bunnies since being created/born/whatever. So while it should be trying to rip your soul out all it wants to do is share its carrots.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    In SSaDT on the introduction page to the 4th edition storyline there is a single panel where Redcloak is telling Xykon to turn off his necromantic aura(Which Xykon seems unaware of)

    The MitD exclaims "I don't even know if I'm affected by that, Have I even been updated?"

    Could this be a clue pointing at a monster who was excluded from 4th edition? OR at a monster who WAS updated to 4th edition, excluding those who weren't?

    Not sure if this has been brought up before.
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  13. - Top - End - #433
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAvocado View Post
    In SSaDT on the introduction page to the 4th edition storyline there is a single panel where Redcloak is telling Xykon to turn off his necromantic aura(Which Xykon seems unaware of)

    The MitD exclaims "I don't even know if I'm affected by that, Have I even been updated?"

    Could this be a clue pointing at a monster who was excluded from 4th edition? OR at a monster who WAS updated to 4th edition, excluding those who weren't?

    Not sure if this has been brought up before.
    Dagger Pen brought it up in the first page. I remember it because it was literally the first comment of the new thread.

    Edit: I should add: I remember because it's kinda my job to remember this sort of thing. Since it is more than 10 pages ago, it is in no way a problem that you brought it up again. The rule of thumb is that you should only check the pages since the last refresh (i.e. page 11 and forwards), and even then, I'm unlikely to make a fuss if you've only checked the last couple of pages.

    GW
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2013-03-21 at 10:32 PM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Thought Experiment - since there isn't much new information:

    What single, simply expressed piece of information would be the most useful in nailing down the MitD's identity?

    For example - having the monster state conclusively that he cannot fly would probably eliminate more than one theory.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by SavageWombat View Post
    What single, simply expressed piece of information would be the most useful in nailing down the MitD's identity?
    "My identity is X."
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by SavageWombat View Post
    What single, simply expressed piece of information would be the most useful in nailing down the MitD's identity?
    Other than the reveal, I'd say that the single most useful thing we could potentially get is a clear answer to what power caused the escape.

    From my experience in this thread, though, I'd like to know for a certain fact if he is or not a D&D monster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    One thing I'd like to mention, as a rare visitor to the thread - unless I missed something, the single argument against MitD being able to move things without touching them stems from the "bucket of stew" scene, which happened three years ago. Now admittedly the Go comic was already a little wordy and would not have been greatly enhanced by a speech balloon asking O-Chul to place his piece(s) for him - or O-Chul's surprise that he doesn't seem to need to do just this - but isn't it somewhat possible that in the intervening three years, this was a power that he developed with age?
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Dagger Pen brought it up in the first page. I remember it because it was literally the first comment of the new thread.

    Edit: I should add: I remember because it's kinda my job to remember this sort of thing. Since it is more than 10 pages ago, it is in no way a problem that you brought it up again. The rule of thumb is that you should only check the pages since the last refresh (i.e. page 11 and forwards), and even then, I'm unlikely to make a fuss if you've only checked the last couple of pages.

    GW
    Ah well, I HAVE read the whole thread at one point or another, but I do only check new posts each day. I must have forgotten someone bringing it up.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by FlawedParadigm View Post
    One thing I'd like to mention, as a rare visitor to the thread - unless I missed something, the single argument against MitD being able to move things without touching them stems from the "bucket of stew" scene, which happened three years ago. Now admittedly the Go comic was already a little wordy and would not have been greatly enhanced by a speech balloon asking O-Chul to place his piece(s) for him - or O-Chul's surprise that he doesn't seem to need to do just this - but isn't it somewhat possible that in the intervening three years, this was a power that he developed with age?
    Possible, certainly, but it has a number of issues:
    1) MitD hasn't grown larger
    2) His personality hasn't changed
    3) He's too lazy to gain levels.

    But I could accept it in the right suggestion, similar to how dragons gain abilities with age, but in a species that isn't significantly larger with each passing age group.

    Do the White Slaad have telekinesis? MitD could have done the transition between pre-white and white, and there would be nothing to be noticed in the comic.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  20. - Top - End - #440
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    3) He's too lazy to gain levels.
    Even assuming he could find anything challenging enough to give XP, yes. That's why I suggested a power that developed with age, like for example if one assumed that a given race's telekinetic powers developed at puberty (or their racial equivalent thereof) or something to explain how they didn't get themselves (or family) killed in infancy experimenting with making pointy things fly around at high speeds. I knew if I were going to suggest it, levels couldn't be part of the suggestion, merely the passage of time.

    Sadly, I don't see any kind of telekinetic power on White Slaads, but then the only reference I could find describing powers was a NWN 2 wiki. I'm guessing Slaadi are product identity and don't have stats published on the internet. You'll have to ask someone who has the books.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Messenger View Post
    I really would rather Tarquin finally just went all George R. R. Martin on Nale.
    That's right - George R. R. Martin; a writer so ruthless, his name is a verb akin to Samuel L. Jackson. Valar morghulis.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    The only thing worse than the usual irrelevant rules pedantry is incorrect irrelevant rules pedantry.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by FlawedParadigm View Post
    That's why I suggested a power that developed with age, like for example if one assumed that a given race's telekinetic powers developed at puberty (or their racial equivalent thereof)
    See, this is where point 2 would come into play. If MitD had gone from, say, infant to teenager, I'd expect Rich to give it to us as a clue separate from "and now I also have this awesome power". More whine, less childishness. We haven't seen that, though.

    As a weaker argument, too, but something to keep in mind, it also doesn't match the way Rich referred to the power that caused the escape: he discovered powers he didn't know he had. Reading between the lines, it suggests that the powers have been there all along, not ones that have developed recently. Which is to say, if it was the other way round, I think Rich would have phrased it differently. Take with a grain of salt, of course, since it does require reading between the lines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    See, this is where point 2 would come into play. If MitD had gone from, say, infant to teenager, I'd expect Rich to give it to us as a clue separate from "and now I also have this awesome power". More whine, less childishness. We haven't seen that, though.

    As a weaker argument, too, but something to keep in mind, it also doesn't match the way Rich referred to the power that caused the escape: he discovered powers he didn't know he had. Reading between the lines, it suggests that the powers have been there all along, not ones that have developed recently. Which is to say, if it was the other way round, I think Rich would have phrased it differently. Take with a grain of salt, of course, since it does require reading between the lines.

    Grey Wolf
    Oh, no, I understand that too. But I'm merely suggesting that while perhaps the escape power was awakened by emotional trauma, the telekinetic one developed by age. I mean I'm aware that my idea here has only half a leg to stand on, but it's still possible. Which I think is why we haven't figured out what MitD IS yet; we're ruling out too many possibilities.

    I mean, we've been at this for years and have seven major guesses that don't have major strikes against them, and one of those seven is another comic's character with an entirely different personality. Three of them have size issues. There's something somewhere we're using as a baseline for determining what MitD is that's throwing us off. We took a joke too seriously, or missed taking into account a remark that seemed like a joke but wasn't, somewhere. Might be we've chased a red herring Rich threw in so as not to make it too easy.

    I think it might be the tower scene; specifically, the Earthquake-like ability. We keep looking for a stomp attack or an Earthquake style attack or something...maybe he's just that heavy? Of course that works against the wagon from the Circus scene...but heck, for all we know, that was an adamantine wagon that could easily have bore the weight. I'm not sure what it is, but _something_ is throwing us off, I'm just not sure what it is. We need to figure that out though.
    Last edited by FlawedParadigm; 2013-03-22 at 08:49 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Messenger View Post
    I really would rather Tarquin finally just went all George R. R. Martin on Nale.
    That's right - George R. R. Martin; a writer so ruthless, his name is a verb akin to Samuel L. Jackson. Valar morghulis.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    The only thing worse than the usual irrelevant rules pedantry is incorrect irrelevant rules pedantry.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by FlawedParadigm View Post
    Which I think is why we haven't figured out what MitD IS yet; we're ruling out too many possibilities.
    No. Sorry, but you are wrong in almost every respect. Now, this is the point were I get people angry at me: I've been told by friends and foes alike that I sound too harsh. I've never been able to figure out how to fix it, so I'm trying a disclaimer this time. Please don't be offended, I aim to explain myself, not attack you.

    First, this thread does not "rule out" anything. I said above that I could buy the "became an adolescent" argument if attached to the correct creature. I meant it. I do not know every single creature ever, and I have been surprised by a lot of interesting fluff in proposed creatures. Aboleth comes to mind: the reason I included him in the FBS was because of the fluff regarding his eating habits which matches MitD oh so much better than anything else (and the rest of the characteristics were close enough).

    Second, section 5c, second to last question applies: there is no way to "figure it out". Assume for a moment that MitD is a slaad. It was suggested back in thread 3, IIRC. Now what? Do you think Rich would drop by and congratulate us? That balloons would drop from the top of the page? We will know what MitD is when the comic unveils him, and not a minute sooner. This thread's purpose is not to "figure MitD out" because that is impossible. It is to discuss what he might be, and to keep track of the clues in a centralised location. No more, no less. Yes, if we are lucky, someone will get massive bragging rights when the time comes, but that is not what the thread is for.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlawedParadigm View Post
    I mean, we've been at this for years and have seven major guesses that don't have major strikes against them, and one of those seven is another comic's character with an entirely different personality. Three of them have size issues.
    Minor point: not all carbosilicate amorphs have Schlock's personality. The suggestion is not that MitD is schlock, is that he is a carbosilicate amorph.

    More importantly, those are not "major guesses". They are a showcase, having achieved a hard combination of explaining with minimum bending the three scenes. Nothing more, nothing less. The FBS category exists because the proposal list is too bloody long by half, and because meeting those arbitrary requirements is rare enough that the FBS list is not. Pretending that those are the only proposals that matter is wrong and worse, insulting to everyone that seriously proposed creatures that did not meet the arbitrary constraints. The Zodar is an excellent proposal which I would not in any way be surprised if it turned out to be the correct one. Some weird dragons and demons might also be MitD, and I keep them off the FBS because there are too many of them, and too obvious to make good showcases (and in the demons' case, too dogmatic).

    Quote Originally Posted by FlawedParadigm View Post
    There's something somewhere we're using as a baseline for determining what MitD is that's throwing us off. We took a joke too seriously, or missed taking into account a remark that seemed like a joke but wasn't, somewhere. Might be we've chased a red herring Rich threw in so as not to make it too easy.
    If you truly think we have missed something, say what. That is what the thread is for. But you have to understand that people will be allowed to disagree with your interpretation. You can present your suggestion is as great light as you can manage, and use what clues you need in whatever light best suits them. And then I, and other in this thread, will take a crack at arguing why that light is the wrong colour. And we may be right, or you may be right, and there will be a record. And if in the end you are right and I am wrong, I will be the first to admit it. Because my own suggestions stank, and there is a reason why I don't give any more.

    I know that there is a decent (25%) chance that MitD has been mentioned in this thread, due to the rule of large numbers if nothing else. And when the time comes, I'll find who said it and post a congratulation, and then give my version of how the real MitD does fulfill all the clues. Because I hope that by then, the arguments will have been polished enough that we can. For example: Xykon must have used "Xykon's epic mind control spell" which is why he could break through MitD's mental control immunity, if it turns out MitD cannot be mind controlled.

    But until that happens, the MitD thread will continue to use Okham's razor and establish the baseline that MitD can't be immune to mind control and if someone suggests otherwise, it will count against them.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlawedParadigm View Post
    I think it might be the tower scene; specifically, the Earthquake-like ability. We keep looking for a stomp attack or an Earthquake style attack or something...maybe he's just that heavy? Of course that works against the wagon from the Circus scene...but heck, for all we know, that was an adamantine wagon that could easily have bore the weight. I'm not sure what it is, but _something_ is throwing us off, I'm just not sure what it is. We need to figure that out though.
    You picked the worst possible example for your position. The Earthquake is not part of the FBS. Almost universally, it is explained by sheer strength alone, not by any ability. If it was an family of abilities, it would be the fourth major scene, but since almost no creature has such ability, we quietly ignore it and hope for the best. Also, the problem with MitD's weight is not the cart, it is RC, who had to lift him and the box he is in.

    Edit: This didn't come out clearly enough. I understand that your point is that we are "ruling out" explanations. The Earthquake is the perfect example of how we don't. It is the MitD moment with the softest possible explanation. Almost anything will do to explain it, because the hard arguments never match up with proposals. So even though Okham suggests a power that causes Earthquakes was in effect, sheer lack of options means that the thread, for now, and until such time the situation changes, will accept brute strength, even though it makes no sense that it only happened then.

    At the bottom of this, you are suggesting that this thread, which means me specifically, since I'm the gatekeeper to the first post, and thus anything that goes in there must be filtered through my brain, is dogmatic. I challenge you to name one situation outside of flamewars where I have discarded anything. I challenge explanations. I nibble at their details, and I offer counterarguments, and in the end, whatever is left goes on the first post. You think I was too harsh? That the explanation had merit that I didn't see? Bring it up again. But you do need to convince me, and if it turns out that a creature I said had no explanation for the tower scene, or the earthquake, or the escape does have it, I'll happily update the first post to reflect it. But I am not going to write a bad argument in the first post. You need to convince me, or get people to vote it in - two by the rules, but as long as I don't feel strongly aout the argument, one is likely to be enough.

    Which is not the same as saying that the thread is "doing something wrong" - unless, that is, you can tell us what it is, and how to change.

    Grey Wolf
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2013-03-22 at 09:53 AM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  24. - Top - End - #444
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Bunch of insults, misinterpretations, assumptions, and hypocrisy.
    Yeah, no thanks. There's no way I can reply to that tosh in a way that won't get me major infractions. All I'm going to say is that the thread should not be maintained by someone who explodes at the mere concept that there might be an angle they haven't considered - while simultaneously admitting they've been surprised by all the stuff they've learned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Messenger View Post
    I really would rather Tarquin finally just went all George R. R. Martin on Nale.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    The only thing worse than the usual irrelevant rules pedantry is incorrect irrelevant rules pedantry.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by FlawedParadigm View Post
    [sic] ...someone who explodes at the mere concept that there might be an angle they haven't considered - while simultaneously admitting they've been surprised by all the stuff they've learned.
    Pretty much sums up my feelings reading that post. Pretty harsh response to a very academically sound proposition to consider the revision of the original hypothesis.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by ufo View Post
    Pretty much sums up my feelings reading that post. Pretty harsh response to a very academically sound proposition to consider the revision of the original hypothesis.
    What revision to the original hypothesis? In fact, what original hypothesis? That I "rule out" ideas? All Flawed requested was for me to add the possibility that MitD gained the ability to move things with his mind after he was rescued from the circus, with no evidence to bolster the case. Both the possibility that he is psionic/telekinetic, and the counterargument that he couldn't reach the bucket are already in the first post. I have not rejected the argument, I have merely pointed out its problems, which is what I always do. Precisely what, in your detailed opinion, is wrong with how this thread operates?

    It is easy to sit back and say "Grey Wolf is doing something wrong". I have yet to hear a way to fix whatever it is I am doing wrong. I'm in fact very vague on what exactly I do wrong. Is it my curatorship? Want to vote me out? Go ahead, contact the mods, and ask for it. But that's not going to stop me from joining the next thread and continuing to point out issues with arguments. It will just be some other poor bastard in charge of keeping the first post updated. The thread will still not be able to figure out MitD. The thread will still have contradictory arguments, all of which fit in some ways, and some of which require less assumptions (like "he got older without showing it") than others.

    It is truly mind numbing that every six months or so I go through this exact dance. Someone comes in, vaguely implies that I am close minded, or harsh, or that I "rule out" arguments or whatever (my favourite: when someone actually accused, not just me, but anyone daring to defend me, "fascist group thinkers"), and that there is a better way of doing things. And yet, no-one ever point at actual examples of me actually being anything other than argumentative and a nitpicker, and that is not going to change, whether I'm curator or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    The revision that you re-evaluate the criteria by which suggestions are graded. It's obvious now you didn't even finish reading my post before starting up your rant. You're obviously sick and tired of doing this. Pass it on to someone else who's willing to look with fresh eyes. I'll bow out until then before I waste any further time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Messenger View Post
    I really would rather Tarquin finally just went all George R. R. Martin on Nale.
    That's right - George R. R. Martin; a writer so ruthless, his name is a verb akin to Samuel L. Jackson. Valar morghulis.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    The only thing worse than the usual irrelevant rules pedantry is incorrect irrelevant rules pedantry.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by FlawedParadigm View Post
    The revision that you re-evaluate the criteria by which suggestions are graded.
    See section 5a: Adding information to the first post.

    Suggest what changes you want to the grading system. Don't just vaguely suggest the current ones are wrong. If enough people agree, I will change it. But just saying the grading system is wrong, and not tell me how or how to fix it is unlikely to produce a result.

    Your only example is that the earthquake should consider weight as well as strength. But the earthquake is not part of the grading system. So I'm afraid I still don't see where the problem is.

    GW
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2013-03-22 at 11:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    @GreyWolf

    Just wanted to say that I think you're doing a really good job curating and that I think your arguments are very reasonable.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by ReaderAt2046 View Post
    @GreyWolf

    Just wanted to say that I think you're doing a really good job curating and that I think your arguments are very reasonable.
    Seconded. It's uncommon for me to visit this thread, but I try to read through as much as I can when I do, and all your responses seem consistent, rational, and reasonable. Good threadkeeping, in my opinion.
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