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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    It seems like aboleth mage is awesome in describing MitD. I know the entry in the MM states it's a wizard, but mage can refer to any caster really. That being said, MitD has proven again and again that he is very intelligent and has demonstrated trained Knowledge (the planes) and decipher script skills.

    There is a psionic variant of the Aboleth mage, and power points with augments can explain being tired after one extremely powerful spell use, it doesn't require memorizing of spells, and still would have access to the knowledge skills.
    An Aboleth would be quite poor at pulling things as its only method of doing so would be with tentacles or its mouth.

    MitD has shown he likely has Damage Reduction which somewhat hurts the Aboleth idea, but a singular template can fix this.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by ZerglingOne View Post
    It seems like aboleth mage is awesome in describing MitD. I know the entry in the MM states it's a wizard, but mage can refer to any caster really. That being said, MitD has proven again and again that he is very intelligent and has demonstrated trained Knowledge (the planes) and decipher script skills.

    There is a psionic variant of the Aboleth mage, and power points with augments can explain being tired after one extremely powerful spell use, it doesn't require memorizing of spells, and still would have access to the knowledge skills.
    An Aboleth would be quite poor at pulling things as its only method of doing so would be with tentacles or its mouth.

    MitD has shown he likely has Damage Reduction which somewhat hurts the Aboleth idea, but a singular template can fix this.
    Other problems with the Aboleth, as reflected in section 3a:

    • Strength is 28. For comparison, Roy is about 24. It is hard to believe than an extra 4 strength would allow Roy to punch horses through walls. Note that the psionic aboleth has 26, which is even worse.
    • Huge, almost small enough to fit in the box - and if made any smaller by age or template, he'd be too weak
    • 3 eyes vertically stacked.
    • Study-based spellcasting is a poor fit for MitD, who is never seen studying spells


    Edit: Also, the psionic Aboleth has no way to explain the escape scene since, unlike the mage, the character sheet lists all the powers it has, rather than offer a suggestion of usual ones.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2013-01-08 at 08:20 PM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Other problems with the Aboleth, as reflected in section 3a:

    • Strength is 28. For comparison, Roy is about 24. It is hard to believe than an extra 4 strength would allow Roy to punch horses through walls. Note that the psionic aboleth has 26, which is even worse.
    • Huge, almost small enough to fit in the box - and if made any smaller by age or template, he'd be too weak
    • 3 eyes vertically stacked.
    • Study-based spellcasting is a poor fit for MitD, who is never seen studying spells


    Edit: Also, the psionic Aboleth has no way to explain the escape scene since, unlike the mage, the character sheet lists all the powers it has, rather than offer a suggestion of usual ones.

    Grey Wolf
    I've read the entry and thread
    several times...I was trying to add some things like the Knowledge(the planes), decipher script, and the fact he has trouble pulling things tying into Aboleths.

    But now that you mention it I thought I'd mention my personal opinions on the matter.

    The only -real- problem is physical appearance in the vertically stacked eyes.

    The psionic aboleth is listed as having specific powers, but if they're able to have class levels, why not Psion?
    A psion simply knows his powers; they are ingrained in his mind. He does not need to prepare them (in the way that some spellcasters prepare their spells), though he must get a good night’s sleep each day to regain all his spent power points.
    And Psion can -definitely- explain Escape.


    Wanna know why 28 strength is enough? Because rule of funny/drama. Non-belted Roy (who is a medium sized entity) was capable of knocking Miko in excess of 20 feet with non-lethal damage off of Hinjo and into a wall forcefully enough to actually bounce off. Does Roy have Awesome Blow? Probably not, it was a scene showing him to be a badass.

    You also have to remember that monster manual stat values are for average creatures of their type. MitD could be absolutely extraordinary in the strength category with 18 base which would allow him to be smaller and still be easily in excess of 28 strength.

    The Miko being knocked through the wall example is my least favorite demonstration of MitD feats because it was quite clearly (to me) a joke to demonstrate it's a very strong creature while ignoring the D&D rules.


    It's stuff like that that puts characters like Indiana Jones as 17th level.

    Analyzing specifically funny or badass scenes using ability scores where magic isn't directly involved is near impossible to analyze with the rules.
    Last edited by ZerglingOne; 2013-01-08 at 09:11 PM.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by ZerglingOne View Post
    The psionic aboleth is listed as having specific powers, but if they're able to have class levels, why not Psion? Psion can -definitely- explain Escape.
    They're not allowed to have class levels. Otherwise, every creature can explain the escape. A potted plant can be made to fit MitD if allowed enough templates and class levels and other augmentation techniques (see Section 2d).

    The Aboleth mage isn't using class levels. It is using the d20 description: "Typical Wizard Spells Prepared (4/6/5/4/4/3; save DC 15 + spell level)", followed by a list. The fact that those are just the "typical" ones means that a DM could choose to give him teleport instead, without having to add anything to the creature.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZerglingOne View Post
    Wanna know why 28 strength is enough? Because rule of funny/drama. Non-belted Roy (who is a medium sized entity) was capable of knocking Miko in excess of 20 feet with non-lethal damage off of Hinjo and into a wall forcefully enough to actually bounce off. Does Roy have Awesome Blow? Probably not, it was a scene showing him to be a badass
    You also have to remember that monster manual stat values are for average creatures of their type. MitD could be absolutely extraordinary in the strength category with 18 base which would allow him to be smaller and still be easily in excess of 28 strength.
    So you say. I disagree. 30 is a rule of thumb for minimum strength, but 40 is more what I'd consider enough. And since you bring up Roy, notice that indeed Miko bounced off the wall. She wasn't punched through it. 4 extra strength, or 10, would not make a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZerglingOne View Post
    The Miko being knocked through the wall example is my least favorite demonstration of MitD feats because it was quite clearly (to me) a joke to demonstrate it's a very strong creature while ignoring the D&D rules.
    Yes, we know. Thus my point that 28 strength is not a "very strong creature". it is strong, certainly, but nowhere near as strong as the Uvuu or the protean.

    And the problem is compounded if you drop the size category (which you can't, actually, not within the rules).

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    They're not allowed to have class levels.
    The Aboleth mage isn't using class levels. It is using the d20 description: "Typical Wizard Spells Prepared (4/6/5/4/4/3; save DC 15 + spell level)", followed by a list.
    This is incorrect. It actually says [10th level wizard] in the entry.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by ZerglingOne View Post
    This is incorrect. It actually says [10th level wizard] in the entry.
    No, it is not incorrect. Source.

    Edit: I think I see where the confusion lies. When I say "using class levels" I mean on top of whatever is already allowed in the description. The SRD entry allows a DM to give other spells to the Arboleth mage than the ones listed as an example in the entry. The SRD entry for the psionic Arboleth allows no such liberties, listing exactly the psionic powers it possesses.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2013-01-08 at 09:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, it is not incorrect. Source.

    Grey Wolf
    Top of the statblock: "Aboleth Mage, 10th-Level Wizard".

    And it has the relevant extra 10d4 HD.

    I agree with you that we can't just add any random class levels we want, but the Aboleth Mage is in fact an Aboleth with Wizard levels and a few arbitrary-source attribute boosts.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    I agree with you that we can't just add any random class levels we want, but the Aboleth Mage is in fact an Aboleth with Wizard levels and a few arbitrary-source attribute boosts.
    Yes, I realised that after you quoted me (see edit above). Nevertheless, the rule in the thread is "creatures as described in the d20 SRD, with no modification beyond that". If the Aboleth Mage was built into the SRD using class levels, lucky for it, but it is still something that can be looked up and anyone can read. It is not the same as "take the aboleth psion, and switch out (power A) for psionic teleport, because that makes it fit".

    One of the reasons why I placed Aboleth in the FBS list, even though it really doesn't quite pass the bar, is because that extra degree of liberty in the powers. I hoped that by giving it prominence, other similar creatures with variable lists of powers would be shaken loose. No such luck so far, though.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2013-01-08 at 09:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Ok, found a new possible monster:

    A young adult (100-200 years old) Lethus Dragon, Primeval http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Primeval_Dragons_(3.5e_Monster)

    Primeval dragons are basically really old, possibly divinely connected or extra-planar dragons. They're really old as species and live a long time, but they do reproduce. Mostly they're really obscure and live places mortals very rarely go for whatever reason. There are several different species of them, some of which seem like much better fits personality-wise for MitD, but the Lethus handles the three tests best.

    Circus Scene: Its a dragon, but the fluff describes it as "Lethus dragons have foregone the majestic effigies of their Chromatic brethren, and are more warped, grotesque exemplars of the species of True Dragons." So, a dragon, but warped and grotesque. Might be pretty weird looking, and a Young Adult would sport a 24 CHR.

    Tower Scene: STR of 33 which is borderline, but 28d12+196 HP, AC 42 (plus Profane Protection gets it another +7), DR15/Epic & Good is a pretty decent set of defensive stats.

    Escape Scene: Spell casting ability of an level 17 Sorcerer

    Pros: Meh. It does pretty well on the three big scenes test but otherwise kinda mediocre. Lives primarily in places tightly associated with Negative Energy, so a jungle would be a surprising habitat and technically they're only listed as speaking Draconic. Its Frightful Presence aura would cause trouble, but it only kicks in if it charges or attacks something, which MitD pretty much never does. Its got a bunch of other abilities, mostly shadow related, plus its listed as Psionic (though, other than its breath, it doesn't have any powers listed) so its capabilities are pretty flexible.

    Its a shame Cerulean and Olympus dragons don't have caster abilities better suited to the Escape (Druid and Cleric, respectively) because their fluff fits MitD a lot better.

    Cons: Huge is a little big to meet the size tests, and the various alignment and behavior descriptors don't really fit very well.
    Last edited by Crusher; 2013-01-09 at 12:36 AM.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Ok, found a new possible monster:

    A young adult (100-200 years old) Lethus Dragon, Primeval http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Primeval_Dragons_(3.5e_Monster)
    This is a homebrew creation made by Sulacu and as evidenced by this page the monster was first released Nov. 29th 2011 7 years after the identity of MitD had been decided (September 2nd 2004).

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Homebrew probably but doesn't automatically eliminate it as long as its fairly prominently available out there. Being introduced in 2011, however, does. I had a suspicion it was a recently posted/created creature as I hadn't seen it before on that site (though I apparently hadn't looked there in quite a while) though I was hoping I'd just missed it somehow.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Homebrew probably but doesn't automatically eliminate it as long as its fairly prominently available out there.
    I can confirm that homebrew is no more a problem than 3rd party splatbooks. Not existing in the correct timeframe is indeed an issue. Given the circumstances, I am thinking of adding a time limit to the FBS definition ("the creature need to have published before strip #100"). I will be somewhat flexible with creatures that were close to being officially published at the time (since Rich could conceivably have an advance copy, being a splatbook writer himself), but not for situations such as this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Given the circumstances, I am thinking of adding a time limit to the FBS definition ("the creature need to have published before strip #100"). I will be somewhat flexible with creatures that were close to being officially published at the time (since Rich could conceivably have an advance copy, being a splatbook writer himself), but not for situations such as this one.
    If you go through with this may I suggest picking a more liberal but hard time limit instead of setting the cutoff date exactly at strip #100 and being flexible? You already get a lot of (undeserved) crap for picking favourites as is, so keeping the FBS as impartial as possible seems like a good idea.
    Last edited by Silver Swift; 2013-01-12 at 08:27 AM.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peregrine Crow View Post
    If you go through with this may I suggest picking a more liberal but hard time limit instead of setting the cutoff date exactly at strip #100 and being flexible? You already get a lot of (undeserved) crap for picking favourites as is, so keeping the FBS as impartial as possible seems like a good idea.
    I would if I could, but I can't, so I (probably) won't. The key problem is that I don't know what books TSR was in the process of writing when Rich decided what MitD was going to be, and thus I do not know the whole list nor the publication dates of all the sources that Rich could have had advanced copy of when picking a creature.

    What we do know is the approximate time of strip #100 - approximate because he decided "around" #100, since Courier6 seems to know the exact date #100 came out - and we already have had creatures that came out in official splatbooks shortly (months) after that time that I can believe could have been known to Rich in the appropriate time frame.

    Yes, I want to keep FBS as rational as possible, but it is already a flexible categorisation anyway: the aboleth doesn't have the strength, but was so close I decided to be flexible regardless. We don't have MitD's actual strength, or the exact SLA he used, nor precisely what was it that made the circus audience vomit. Having a soft publication date is par for the course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    I'm fine with a soft, strip # based cut-off date, but how about putting a slightly more explicit date on that. Conveniently, the Giant copyrights every strip (its down at the bottom) which includes noting the year the strip came out (strip #100 was 2004. For reference, #26 was the first strip of 2004 and #133 was the final strip of 2004).

    So, would it be out of line to suggest candidates should (though not "must") have been published by 2005 or so? Or perhaps "Should have been invented around when strip #100 was published (sometime in 2004)"?
    Last edited by Crusher; 2013-01-12 at 03:15 PM.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Courier6 is correct to within a day. In the relevant discussion thread, Lilly comments on September 1 2004 that strip 100 is one hour early. I suppose time zones could explain a date of September 2. Anyway, the precise date is not important for the reasons given by Grey Wolf above. If we want to allow for reasonable flexibility I would suggest that monsters need to have veen published during first half of 2005 or earlier.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Ok, found another possible monster. Kinda surprised it hasn't been mentioned before since its in one of the Field Folios.

    Klurichir, Huge Outsider - http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/m...name=Klurichir

    Its a major demon variably described as a Tanar'ri or as Obyriths, the predecessors to the Tanar'ri. They used to have the jobs of Balors but after a regime change eons ago were demoted, scattered and mostly hunted down and killed but a few have survived. Their power is on par with or a half-step down from Balors and Pit Fiends.

    An issue with them is that they've been variably stat-ed in different places, with CRs ranging mostly from 19 to 25.

    Circus Scene: Ok, its a demon so in theory would be recognizable (the biggest problem with Pit Fiends), but they have two things going for them. First, they haven't been part of the power structure for millennia so human knowledge of them could have of slipped through the cracks in a way that wouldn't have happened with Pit Fiends. Second, they look like this: http://kagehiisa.deviantart.com/art/...emon-137573744 so they're pretty weird looking and someone might think they generally look demonic while having no idea what they actually were. CHR of 23.

    Tower Scene: STR ranges from 29 to 38 which ranges from inadequate to workable. Defenses are pretty good with DR20/Good&Iron, 210 HP and AC 34.

    Escape Scene: Ok, here's where it gets a little dicey. On its face, they don't have anything, but there's potential. Their description is pretty spartan in its description. Under Special Attacks they have listed: Spell-like Abilities and Spells. But it doesn't give any detail as to what those would be. They can Summon Tanar'ri, but that's also listed as a separate special attack. Their "Tanar'ri traits" include some elemental DRs and telepathy, and their "Outsider traits" are that they can't be resurrected short of a Wish, they don't have to eat (but can) and have a bunch of armor and weapon proficencies. None of which really feel like "Spell-Like" abilities or "Spells". They do have a Fear Aura but its not described in any detail.

    A possible answer to this is from another set of monster stats, here: http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Klurichir_(3.5e_Monster) where it has listed spell-like abilities which include Greater Teleport and Wish. This version of the Klurichir has multiple issues including being a Homebrew posted in 2011 (though the Klurichir itself has been around quite a bit longer, at least since 2006 and possibly earlier) and being immune to mind-control abilities (weirdly it also has a lower CR than the other version despite being obviously more powerful).

    Pros: Depending on interpretation it may or may not do well on the big 3 tests. INT of 20 but WIS of 16, which seems a little high for the WIS but its about as low as sentient Epic-grade monsters tend to get for mental stats.

    Cons: Huge is a little big to meet the size tests, they have Telepathy so the surprise of them speaking common is that one would talk instead of using Telepath
    Last edited by Crusher; 2013-01-16 at 12:28 AM.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Here's another one:

    Aurumach Rilmani (large Outsider, CR20) - http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/vi...&t=2648#p76824

    The Rilmani are outsiders and the living representations of Neutrality. The Aurumach are the most powerful Rilmani and are 10' tall people with golden skin and eyes which shine too brightly to look at.

    Circus - Well, its kind of odd looking. And in this picture its actually strang enough looking that I might buyt it. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...0/Rilmani2.jpg

    Tower Scene - STR of 32 which is at the bottom edge of acceptable, 250 HP, AC41, DR20/Magic&Mithril (not sure what that means)

    Escape - A whopping ton of spell-like abilities including Wish usable once/year.

    Pros - They're rarely seen outside the Spire (which I guess is the True Neutral answer to the Abyss or whatever) so seeing one in a jungle would be a surprise. It has a ton of abilities (including two different auras), but most of them only work if the Aurumach focuses on doing it. So if the Aurumach was suffering amnesia, it wouldn't actually be all that impressive. Conveniently, the only ability that works automatically is its armor. If the Aurumach is attacked, a suit of +4 semi-translucent golden full plate appears just in time to help defend and then immediately disappears again (unless the Aurumach wills the armor to stick around). Also, the personality is a decent fit. They like to resolve problems with diplomacy and don't really like to take action unless they absolutely have to.

    Cons - Unlike Tanar'ri and other outsiders which can have (minor) changes of heart and thus alignment, if a Rilmani of any sort changes alignment away from True Neutral its instantly disintegrated (bummer). If the alignment taint is somehow removed its then instantly restored, but I'm not sure how you'd do that. I guess the MitD could be True Neutral but it wouldn't have been my first alignment guess. Speaks common (as well as many other languages).
    Last edited by Crusher; 2013-01-16 at 01:20 AM.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Hmmm...

    Not that odd-looking, but other than that and the language it seems to fit pretty well.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    I don't have a lot of time, so my initial thoughts:

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Without actually doing the research myself, it sounds like the version of it that existed in the right time frame couldn't have explained the escape. I also, as you know, strongly distrust the ability of demons to be considered good men by Paladins. I'll grant you the circus scene, though. The strength being all over the place, in the other hand, I'd need to really look into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Aurumach Rilmani (large Outsider, CR20) - http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/vi...&t=2648#p76824
    If only we could combine this with the previous. I can't buy the circus scene from the picture, sorry. Bright lights wouldn't cause vomit, and neither would the quite humanoid looks. Certainly not things that "I've never seen before". Scape scene fits nicely, but not the morality angle.

    (This is not intended to be a thorough look at them, so excuse me if I missed the bleeding obvious counters to my objections above)

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Honestly, the way the MitD acts, he seems quite neutral to me. He just goes with what Xykon says, and doesn't really think about good vs evil or law vs chaos. He wanted to save his friend and teleport him out of danger, but good acts don't shift alignment. True neutrals can still do good and evil things, they just can't care one way or the other. I would put this as an "ok" contender in my eyes.

    Though I would agree that the look of him isn't necessarily vomit-inducing, you have to think what those things would look like through the eyes of a "normal person". We, as players and investigators, have been sifting through the bottom of the barrel and have seen quite a few crazy things, i.e. the Protean, and I think are a little jaded as to what might produce vomit. I have seen some people, in real life, throw up because someone surprised them and made them jump. I'm not saying that these guys are super hideously ugly, but who knows, maybe that one spectator had a weak stomach
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Oh, the Kulchir especially drove me nuts. I saw the homebrew version first and after quickly reading the description and finding out that it had actually been around a while I though briefly that I might have actually solved the puzzle. But then a closer reading showed that both versions, while close, had issues, but not the same issues. Between them they get there, but separately they 're only close. I spent at least an hour hunting for a version with the right combination of abilities or better evidence of Teleport being a spell it could cast but to no avail.

    The other one kind of snuck up on me. I dismissed it at first, but more and more of its pieces fit nicely. It still doesnt quite feel right to me, but its toyches the right bases rather nicely.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_D&Der View Post
    Though I would agree that the look of him isn't necessarily vomit-inducing, you have to think what those things would look like through the eyes of a "normal person". We, as players and investigators, have been sifting through the bottom of the barrel and have seen quite a few crazy things, i.e. the Protean, and I think are a little jaded as to what might produce vomit. I have seen some people, in real life, throw up because someone surprised them and made them jump. I'm not saying that these guys are super hideously ugly, but who knows, maybe that one spectator had a weak stomach
    But the vomiting isn't the only problem. As Grey Wolf alluded to, a major part of the circus scene is the wizard saying "I've never seen anything like it". Any creature that is basically humanoid or otherwise strongly resembles some well-known type of creature is pretty much ruled out.
    Last edited by Holy_Knight; 2013-01-16 at 07:53 PM.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Ok, found another possible monster. Kinda surprised it hasn't been mentioned before since its in one of the Field Folios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Without actually doing the research myself, it sounds like the version of it that existed in the right time frame couldn't have explained the escape.
    I looked through the Fiend Folios extensively, and the reason that I did not include this creature among my findings was precisely because it could not explain the escape scene as listed in the Fiend Folios. In addition to failing to explain the escape scene, there were at least a couple other issues IIRC, so I did not see it as a viable candidate.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy_Knight View Post
    But the vomiting isn't the only problem. As Grey Wolf alluded to, a major part of the circus scene is the wizard saying "I've never seen anything like it". Any creature that is basically humanoid or otherwise strongly resembles some well-known type of creature is pretty much ruled out.
    I've often wondered if too much is being read into this quote. An expert in a subject may just say this when he sees something that doesn't really fit what he knows about other things that look like it.

    For example I have a friend that's doing a PhD in biology and it's happened in the past that we've seen something in a field and his reaction is 'I'm not sure what that is, that's really strange'.

    To me it's some form of bug/insect/whatever and not odd but to him it's really odd as it doesn't fit his specialist knowledge (eg if he saw a spider with 12 legs), or if you prefer he's never seen anything like it.

    I think a rare creature, not typical of it's group (devil, humanoid etc) could fit that description.
    Last edited by Tryfan; 2013-01-18 at 10:26 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by CloakedDancer View Post
    I looked through the Fiend Folios extensively, and the reason that I did not include this creature among my findings was precisely because it could not explain the escape scene as listed in the Fiend Folios. In addition to failing to explain the escape scene, there were at least a couple other issues IIRC, so I did not see it as a viable candidate.
    Oh? Do you recall if the description listed Spells as a Special Attack/Ability and, if so, what exactly it might be able to cast? Clearly not Greater Teleport/Wish or it would have set off alarms I'm sure. I'm just curious how it was listed.
    Last edited by Crusher; 2013-01-18 at 04:47 PM.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Picked up a copy of Fiend Folio (well, borrowed a friend's) and found the Klurichir. Good news and bad news. The good news is that version has its spell and spell-like abilities explicitly listed and it has the spell-casting ability of a 10-level Sorc. They prefer Abjuration and Evocation spells but they're not restricted, and its Fear Aura has to be actually turned on to do anything.

    The bad news is that they only have a 29 STR and, somewhat more problematically, they're 30' tall.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tryfan View Post
    I've often wondered if too much is being read into this quote. An expert in a subject may just say this when he sees something that doesn't really fit what he knows about other things that look like it.

    For example I have a friend that's doing a PhD in biology and it's happened in the past that we've seen something in a field and his reaction is 'I'm not sure what that is, that's really strange'.

    To me it's some form of bug/insect/whatever and not odd but to him it's really odd as it doesn't fit his specialist knowledge (eg if he saw a spider with 12 legs), or if you prefer he's never seen anything like it.

    I think a rare creature, not typical of it's group (devil, humanoid etc) could fit that description.
    This is an interesting point, but I don't think it works to explain the reaction in question. Remember that the monster in the darkness was billed as "IT!", which makes the circus scene disanalogous to your arthropod analogy. You have a term--a general and imprecise one, but sufficient for a non-specialist's purposes--by which to categorize the creature in question. You don't call it an "it" or view it as totally alien, because you recognize its resemblance to a class of creatures with which you are familiar. In the same way, the circus wouldn't call the MiTD an "it" if it looked a lot like some other group of creatures for which they had a name.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Why on earth would they do that? The circus makes money by amazing people, not accurately labeling phenotypes. The circus has negative interest in helping people identify mitd correctly because it reduces the mystery. Additionally, I think the bug analogy was apt. The bugs in the field didnt have announcers or signs. The ornithologist just saw stuff on the ground and did his thing. A wizard in the audience would be no different.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Why on earth would they do that? The circus makes money by amazing people, not accurately labeling phenotypes. The circus has negative interest in helping people identify mitd correctly because it reduces the mystery. Additionally, I think the bug analogy was apt. The bugs in the field didnt have announcers or signs. The ornithologist just saw stuff on the ground and did his thing. A wizard in the audience would be no different.
    You are missing the point. The show is not meant for PhDs in biology. It is meant for regular people. If a PhD is the only one that goes "huh, no idea what that is" while everyone else looks at it and says "that's a spider" (because they don't know and don't care that it has 12 legs) then the show would be booed out of the stage with cries of "that's a spider" much in the same way that the "bearded lady" gets booed with "it's just a female dwarf".

    The evidence is that no-one recognises MitD except RC. Not the regular people, not the guy in what look like wizard robes. Thus, the idea that it is a creature similar to a known species but somehow different doesn't match the evidence we do have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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