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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    I understand that resurrecting old speculation threads is frowned upon, so I hope itís all right that I created a new one (That's right, I am new here )
    As the title indicates, Iím presenting these thoughts in spite of being ridiculously late to the discussion, so I wonít be surprised if this idea has already been raised, but am interested in what people might think.
    These thoughts cropped up after I recently I read this snippet somewhere;

    [On Authority] Its hallmark is unquestioning recognition by those who are asked to obey; neither coercion nor persuasion is needed. To remain in authority requires the greatest respect for the person in office. The greatest enemy of authority, therefore, is contempt, and the surest way to undermine it is laughter. "
    - Hanna Arendt

    For centuries to come, all will know the tale of how Tarquin and The Empire of Blood were cast down by the legendary Elan The Bard.

    Or at least, someone who looked like him anyway.

    An army dressed up and geared to look just like Elan will storm the Palace and secure the heart of the Empire. Since few soldiers would be willing to take the risk of potentially slaying the real son amongst the horde of clones, the defending forces will be rendered helpless against the copious amounts of slapstick, bad puns, song, pieing and (Hideous?) laughter.

    As a result, Tarquin will most certainly go down in infamy as the subject of the most hilarious and humiliating hostile takeover of all time. While Amun-Zora may be the one to actually strike the final blow, Iím sure the ďbardtallionsĒ will be what everyone remembers afterwards.

    And the best part of this plan? In spite of the comedic chaos (sorry I'll stop now), Tarquin - a man well aware of genre conventions - will Ďgetí it. If this Elan-esque plan is successful, the outcome would be what he asked for (just not what he wanted) and to me would seem a fitting Oots-verse response to his...would you call it ďmeta-hubrisĒ?

    Any thoughts?
    "Do you even know what you're doing?"
    "Why should I let that stop me?"
    - 8bit Theater

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    I don't think the plan Elan gave Ian Starshine has been analyzed in any great depth. That is the plan you mean, right? There were a lot of speculation posts about the plan he wanted to talk to Durkon about before that, before it was established as "bring in Julio Scoundrel."
    Spoiler
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    Oops, sorry I should specify:I speak of Elan's other Secret Plan to deal with Tarquin. The one he passed on to Ian Starshine that we do not know any details of.

    And by late, I mean by posting up speculation on a topic that may have already been discussed to death.
    "Do you even know what you're doing?"
    "Why should I let that stop me?"
    - 8bit Theater

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    Aw great, I hope the Giant doesn't see this because it means it will never happen

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    Very interesting speculation. I think it may be a little early to start guessing, given how little is known, but you're welcome to try. I think it's very likely that Elan's plan will involve a takedown of Tarquin that doesn't result in his infamy. Also, the plan must be fairly good for even Ian to think it may work. Since it is Elan making the plan, it is likely it will rely on some storytelling convention.
    Last edited by Jaxzan Proditor; 2014-04-23 at 09:03 PM. Reason: I have no idea how that frown got there.


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    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    Very interesting speculation. I think it may be a little early to start guessing, given how little is known, but you're welcome to try. I think it's very likely that Elan's plan will involve a takedown of Tarquin that doesn't result in his infamy. Also, the plan must be fairly good for even Ian to think it may work. Since it is Elan making the plan, it is likely it will rely on some storytelling convention.

    I agree with you that the ideal comeuppance for Tarquin would be for him to be completely forgotten about and ah, "denied" of his legacy. Alternatively this idea plays along the lines of a ďBe careful what you wish forĒ outcome.

    Why make a plan that relies on Storytelling Convention...against a man whose greatest skill is in recognizing and circumventing them?

    That said, to my mind it does take into account the same story conventions that Tarquin intends to manipulate to his advantage, except it twists them into a mockery of his grand designs. Tarquin seeks legendary (failing that, Shakespearean) status for his story, yet the ludicrous and innocent charm of this concept would drag Tarquinís high-brow ambitions down to Childrenís Pantomime levels of silliness (or Puppet Show levels ).

    In spite of Tarquinís opinions, I think it would be one thing to appear like a buffoon to some of his enemies to maintain a tactical edge but quite another to be seen as one by everyone long after his demise.


    Also.
    Spoiler
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    Custard Pie Siege Engines.


    Heíll never see those coming.
    "Do you even know what you're doing?"
    "Why should I let that stop me?"
    - 8bit Theater

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    I'm thinking story telling conventions because, well it's Elan we're talking about after all. I suppose he could reuse that giant wooden alpaca.


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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    So you're saying his plan is... Send in the Clowns?

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    I'm thinking story telling conventions because, well it's Elan we're talking about after all. I suppose he could reuse that giant wooden alpaca.
    True...considering The Order recently made some allies within the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing, it should not take too much effort to harvest all the Potato Salad they could need for it.

    I would be interested in seeing what The EoB Guard Manual has to say on dealing with that.



    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    So you're saying his plan is... Send in the Clowns?
    After they establish a circusvallation, yes.
    "Do you even know what you're doing?"
    "Why should I let that stop me?"
    - 8bit Theater

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    So you're saying his plan is... Send in the Clowns?
    Better, it's Send in the Clone Clowns. For double the punnage.

    I... don't think it'd be an easy matter to outfit an entire army (particularly on the Western Continent, where most people seem to be dark-haired and mid-tone-skinned) to look convincingly like the (very pale, blond) Elan. But it's a nice image.
    "None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighborís pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Uigeadaily View Post
    True...considering The Order recently made some allies within the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing, it should not take too much effort to harvest all the Potato Salad they could need for it.

    I would be interested in seeing what The EoB Guard Manual has to say on dealing with that.
    Mainly I'm interested in seeing that because I really want to know what the other steps were.


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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    There are 2 things that Elan might not have accounted for: SPG and Jacinda

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    Very interesting speculation. I think it may be a little early to start guessing, given how little is known, but you're welcome to try. I think it's very likely that Elan's plan will involve a takedown of Tarquin that doesn't result in his infamy. Also, the plan must be fairly good for even Ian to think it may work. Since it is Elan making the plan, it is likely it will rely on some storytelling convention.
    I agree, the plan is going to be something that would not result in Tarquin's infamy (which we know, would mean Tarquin wins), it must be good to satisfy Ian, and it will rely on storytelling convention.

    It may seem a little crazy, but could Tarquin be tricked into taking on a heroic redemptive role? If Tarquin is obligated to follow the laws of narrative he would obligated to follow-through on a change in role once assumed and this would destroy Tarquin as a villain. If such a scheme were to occur, Tarquin would probably have to die, as it is difficult to truly redeem someone as evil as Tarquin through something other than a heroic sacrifice (see tv tropes: redemption equals death).
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    Quote Originally Posted by CaDzilla View Post
    There are 2 things that Elan might not have accounted for: SPG and Jacinda
    He knows they exist, at the very least, for the same reasons he recognized Laurin: he saw them in the flashback panels. Whether he knows what they're capable is another thing, but he can at least plan for his father possibly having four high-level people to help him.


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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    He knows they exist, at the very least, for the same reasons he recognized Laurin: he saw them in the flashback panels. Whether he knows what they're capable is another thing, but he can at least plan for his father possibly having four high-level people to help him.
    He can probably recognize Jacinda as the rogue, but he might have trouble on SPG. Though he might have included him in he plan and knows everything about him due to some insane use of bardic knowledge.

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    Quote Originally Posted by CaDzilla View Post
    He can probably recognize Jacinda as the rogue, but he might have trouble on SPG. Though he might have included him in he plan and knows everything about him due to some insane use of bardic knowledge.
    I'd say that being able to recognize people from flashbacks is already an insane use of bardic knowledge.
    Last edited by Jaxzan Proditor; 2014-04-24 at 09:15 PM.


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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    I love this idea, (E for Elan-detta!) despite the fact that I think Elan's plan would involve a wedding, and the bride, Amun-Zora, would pull a total Lindsay Lohan and turn the legacy of Tarquin into a trailer-trash comedy.

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    "Send in a team of Elans without the real Elan" seems to be a pretty nice plan. But Tarquin has a Ring of True Seeing and won't hesitate to use the ever-popular Evil Overlord's ''Kill them all!'' command.

    I'm pretty sure Amun Zora isn't in a position to muster a big enough army to conquer EoB by military force. This would be an assassination-like vendetta.
    All thanks to half-halfling for the avatar.

    There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.

    Silent member of Zz'dtri's #698 Scrying Sensor Explanation Club.

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    While the OP's plan is much more hilarious, I actually think that Elan's plan to overthrow his dad is one of his more serious points.

    My best guess is that the plan is all about the spread of information. Tarquin's scheme relies on expanding his control through a combination of invasion, betrayal, and then rebellion and salvation causing small city-states to join up willingly with one of Tarquin's three empires. Remember that when Tarquin conquered openly, he held his throne for less than a year because of the volatility of the Western Continent.

    So, the best way to overthrow Tarquin is to destroy the cooperative scheme between the three empires by revealing it. Cities might surrender to the wrong empire, betray their own "reinforcements" or plan to backstab the leaders of their own "rebellion" if they really understood what was happening to them. Moreover, if it were fully revealed, through careful, trustworthy channels, that the three empires are in cahoots, there could be an alliance of all the other Western Continent Warlords that would come together to overthrow everything Tarquin worked to build.
    Last edited by Anarion; 2014-04-30 at 09:41 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Anarion's right on the money here.
    Quotes

    "Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.Ē
    Oscar Wilde Writer & Poet (1891)

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    While the OP's plan is much more hilarious, I actually think that Elan's plan to overthrow his dad is one of his more serious points.

    My best guess is that the plan is all about the spread of information. Tarquin's scheme relies on expanding his control through a combination of invasion, betrayal, and then rebellion and salvation causing small city-states to join up willingly with one of Tarquin's three empires. Remember that when Tarquin conquered openly, he held his throne for less than a year because of the volatility of the Western Continent.

    So, the best way to overthrow Tarquin is to destroy the cooperative scheme between the three empires by revealing it. Cities might surrender to the wrong empire, betray their own "reinforcements" or plan to backstab the leaders of their own "rebellion" if they really understood what was happening to them. Moreover, if it were fully revealed, through careful, trustworthy channels, that the three empires are in cahoots, there could be an alliance of all the other Western Continent Warlords that would come together to overthrow everything Tarquin worked to build.
    I also think that this is the most likely way that Tarquin will be overthrown. Spill his secret, and his power will start to collapse.


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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Uigeadaily View Post
    For centuries to come, all will know the tale of how Tarquin and The Empire of Blood were cast down ...

    As a result, Tarquin will most certainly go down in infamy ...
    This is what Tarquin wants.

    I prefer to believe that the plan is to simply kill the Warlord early in the revolution as one of the uninteresting nameless, faceless servants of the real enemy - the Empress of Blood.

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    This is what Tarquin wants.

    I prefer to believe that the plan is to simply kill the Warlord early in the revolution as one of the uninteresting nameless, faceless servants of the real enemy - the Empress of Blood.
    I believe that the OP's point was that Tarquin's infamy would not be due to how amazing or villainous he was, but how lame his final fall actually was. Not the infamy Tarquin wants. The plan you suggested doesn't seem to fit with Ian's comments.


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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    Quote Originally Posted by 2323mike View Post
    "Send in a team of Elans without the real Elan" seems to be a pretty nice plan. But Tarquin has a Ring of True Seeing and won't hesitate to use the ever-popular Evil Overlord's ''Kill them all!'' command.
    True Seeing doesn't help against mundane disguises.

    On the other hand, he'd probably give the order anyway. After all, if there is a high-level adventurer concealed among hundreds of low-level mooks, what easier way to find them than by giving that order to your own low-level mooks?

    "Sacrificing minions: is there ANY problem it can't solve?" Whatever, this is not that problem.
    "None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighborís pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    Hi! Been thinking about this a bit, and this is how I would do it.

    While there is a LOT of appeal to "SENDING IN THE CLOWNS" to take down Tarquin, i actually think the whole using the flow of information against his regime, is the more Viable route.

    With one notable addition.

    The information should point towards Tarquin having gone soft, betraying his allies, becoming good, and choosing to be a hero.

    he won't have of course, but his allies will start to doubt his evil intentions. As they doubt they will begin to take overt military action against him, forcing him to raise his blade against his
    own evil empire.

    After every 'victory' against his 'tyrannical' enemies, bards will sing his praises, and make sure everyone on the continent knows that Tarquin is the greatest, most noble hero that ever lived.

    Only his allies will know better, but the more they try to murder him for it, the more he will be FORCED into living the role of a hero.

    For a sadist like Tarquin, this is the greatest punishment he could ever be forced to endure. And that's why it would not only work, it's also going to rank up there with V's familicide spell in terms of magnitude of retribution, when/if it happens in comic.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    Interesting hypothesis, especially about casting Tarquin as the hero. However, I don't see why the rest of the Vector Legion would send armies against him, since they together could probably take him out. I'm also not sure why they would believe the rumors against him.


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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    Easy. Because they are already planing to at some point.

    Tarquin and his pals, have what, in real world economic terms, is known as a "cartel" It's the business model of choice for a lot of drug lods by the way. The idea is to self limit production of a product, for the good of the collective as a whole. Even if the profits are insanely high, since these are used by meglomanic/paranoid types the potential to cheat to gain an advantage over the other members of the cartel, so that you can claim the whole market as a monopoly, is usually irresistable to one or more members of ANY cartel.

    Which means that every member of Tarquins group, is already PLANNING on backstabbing every other member. All Elan's plan needs to do is

    A. make it seem like Tarquin is making his move NOW.

    B. make the public belive that a great military general has become their champion.

    C. Set up some narrative events that surround Tarquin with do gooders that demand he prove himself a hero against his old allies constantly

    Put those together, and you have Tarquin reluctantly taking the role of hero, against his own evil empire, winning, ruling a continent as good ruler should, and hating every second of it. There is even a moderately high chance of him switching alignment to good, which he would instantly realize to be a threat to his identity, and make him hate the process even more, regardless of whether or not he stays evil.

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    Oh skill checks involved on the above:

    Knowledge Economics: DC 10
    Knowledge Crime: DC 10
    Knowledge Genre Convention: DC 10
    Craft Narrative Device: DC 25

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    I'm pretty sure Haley would be willing and able to help Elan with the Knowledge Economics, and Knowledge Crime skill checks, I suspect she used a combination of, sex, pillow talk, and sock puppets to explain how cartels work to him.

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    That's why they would believe Tarquin betrayed them. As for the armies bit, these guys are all about equal power tier, cold, ruthless and calculating and have a strong knowledge of each other's vulnerabilities. They would all prefer to use assassins or armies to outdo each other, because the odds of winning in direct combat vs each other, aren't good enough.

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    Default Re: A tardy theory on Elanís Tarquin-toppling Plan (Yes. Another one)

    If they believe that Tarquin is planning on backstabbing them (which seems unlikely as these guys are all part of the same adventuring party) then it would be better to use existing divisions in the group than to invent new ones. And as for the cartel point, what product is the Legion self-limiting?

    Also, I seriously doubt that an army (which would probably be made up of rather low-level people) would be able to take down Tarquin. Same thing with an assassin. Even if Tarquin knows all of, say, Miron's weaknesses, that doesn't mean Miron wouldn't be able to take him down in a fight. Or if all the Vector Legion went against him.

    Finally,
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Rules
    Double Posting
    Posting twice in a row is generally frowned upon. If you are responding to multiple points, please use quotes and other post formatting to clarify this. Please use the Edit option to modify information in a post instead of immediately making a new one. If you do accidentally double post, you can delete the extra post under the Edit option.


    Peeleeís Lotsey

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