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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jhunter_d View Post
    One thing that supports the telekinesis theory is that the MitD has been shown preforming other feats of magic (for instance, when he teleported V and O-chul.
    If he could move things with his mind, he wouldn't need to rock the cart to hook up the bucket with a rivet. He'd just levitate the bucket.
    True, he wouldn't have to do so, but perhaps he did so anyway?

    He lives shrouded in magical darkness, presumably he has not even seen his own body for a very long time. The sensations involved in reaching out with a limb he can't see and lifting an object, and lifting an object invisibly with his mind may have grown too similar to the point where he doesn't know which is which anymore (assuming he ever did in the first place).

    Hence, even the use of telekenisis will likely be accompanied by some actual physical action or movement, and his use of telekenisis is likely severly limited by his ignorance of the fact that he has it at all.

    Out of the theories I've seen, I like the idea that, whatever he is, he has latent psionic abilities that he sometimes uses without realizing it, and may not even be able to consciously activate.
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  2. - Top - End - #362
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by AntiMatter101 View Post
    He lives shrouded in magical darkness, presumably he has not even seen his own body for a very long time.
    No, this is incorrect. When he wanted the bucket, and rocked the box to get it, he was in the circus, where he was not in any magical darkness, and indeed he was in the light on a daily basis for the show.

    Quote Originally Posted by AntiMatter101 View Post
    he has latent psionic abilities that he sometimes uses without realizing it, and may not even be able to consciously activate.
    This is, unfortunately, an ad-hoc explanation: "MitD has psionic powers, and evidence against it is just times when he had forgotten". Psionic powers are no longer a con against MitD, but since, if he has them at all, he uses them inconsistently, they cannot really be a pro either. The fact remains that if he could levitate things, he would, and thus using levitation to explain how he holds up the plate or the umbrella while also hand-waving away not having used it on the bucket is not going to convince anyone that wasn't already happy with psionics in the first place.

    See also section 2b: Psionics.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  3. - Top - End - #363
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Soooooo...

    I just read a pretty convincing argument that the MITD is a Zodar. Thoughts?

    EDIT: Never mind, it's already on the list.
    Last edited by Gitman00; 2013-03-06 at 01:38 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    From the first post:
    Does not explain the circus scene, since it basically looks like a man in a black armor
    The official version of Zodar is a construct, which would discard him; there is, however, an unofficial version that retains the 2.0 version that was monstrous, and that existed before the official one.
    The circus scene is the big stumbling block. A Zodar just looks like a big obsidian suit of armor - hardly the stuff of nightmares, or to make a wizard say he's "never seen anything like it."
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  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gitman00 View Post
    Soooooo...

    I just read a pretty convincing argument that the MITD is a Zodar. Thoughts?
    I can't open the link to the enworld forum at work, but from the first post:
    • Does not explain the circus scene, since it basically looks like a man in a black armor
    • The official version of Zodar is a construct, which would discard him; there is, however, an unofficial version that retains the 2.0 version that was monstrous, and that existed before the official one.


    Zodar is a good candidate. I considered very seriously changing the rules of the FBS to put it there, but in the end, the original proponent was fine with it staying off it, and given the looks of the creature, we couldn't find a rule that would include it and not a dozen similar ones.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  6. - Top - End - #366
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    "Looks like a suit of black armor" and "I've never seen anything like it" don't really match up, IMO.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Wow, 2 debunks in the time it took me to double-check the first post. EDIT: And one more in the time it took me to post this reply. I'm guessing this has been brought up more than once.
    Last edited by Gitman00; 2013-03-06 at 01:41 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #368
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gitman00 View Post
    Wow, 2 debunks in the time it took me to double-check the first post. I'm guessing this has been brought up more than once.
    A few. The last time stands in my mind as one of the more reasonable disagreements I have ever had in this forum. The proponent tried hirs best to convince me that the looks where not to be based on the official picture (instead, the fluff suggests it might be vaguely insectoid), but didn't call the wrath of gods on my head when I was unconvinced.

    It comes down to: if Rich wants the Zodar to be MitD, he can, just by drawing him ugly, while still fitting the fluff description. But for the purposes of this thread, that kind of Rich modification, while acknowledged as possible, cannot be part of the judgement on the feasibility of the suggestion: it would open the door to too much madness.

    Edit: OK, found a way to read the post, for completeness sake. It has one major mistake (Rich has not said that MitD is from an obscure sourcebook), it is ignoring that the zodar he is describing doesn't have parents (he is clearly using the construct one), and does not address the circus scene at all. It brings nothing to the table that hasn't already been said.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  9. - Top - End - #369
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    So, I was looking earlier in the thread about the possibility of the MitD being a non-god divine creature, and I decided to google around for neutral divine creatures. What do you all think of the Asura? http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Asura_%283.5e_Creature%29

    Pros:
    -CR 27
    -Its description: "These titanic creatures possess six muscular arms and a large head with three faces whose expressions are perpetually different. Fierce creatures from the realms of forlorn luster, vengeance and fury, the Asura are seen as vengeful gods by many. Their six arms wield six different weapons that angrily rend asunder misbegotten souls.

    Asura are heavily muscled and covered in a grotesquely stitched together set of banded mail" So it's strange-looking and ugly enough to fit the circus scene.
    -No teleport abilities, but under its typically prepared spells it does have plane shift, ethereal jaunt, and gate, so it fits the escape scene as well as the protean.
    - Divine attributes, but I don't see it as being immune to mind-affecting effects anywhere.
    - Cleric spells, but no create undead abilities that I can see.
    - It also has access to earthquake.
    -Regeneration and lots of DR.

    Cons:

    -Really, really big. "They stand up to 24 feet tall and weigh in at 20,000 pounds." I mean, it does say "up to," but having one that can fit in the box seems like a bit of a stretch.
    -Wisdom-based casting seems weird for the MitD
    -While the three faces are all on different sides, it does seem like a bit of a stretch to only ever see one set at once.
    -Tongues ability, so not surprising to see one speaking Common.

    I don't think it'd the MitD, but it might be worth looking for more creatures like this.

    *EDIT* Ah, this seems to be a homebrew version. Not sure when it was created, but that may be a strike against it, too.
    Last edited by DaggerPen; 2013-03-07 at 08:50 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    -No teleport abilities, but under its typically prepared spells it does have plane shift, ethereal jaunt, and gate, so it fits the escape scene as well as the protean.
    This is really the big problem for the creature - none of those are good enough.

    For the record, the protean proposes partial shapeshift into an umbral blot to explain the escape scene, giving him access to teleportation. It fits that it is a one-time thing, and requires him to look for powers he doesn't know he had, so it is not really comparable to, well, pretty much any other example.

    Edit: I should add that I am fine with divine creatures which are explicitly neither good nor evil, at least in principle.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2013-03-07 at 09:08 AM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  11. - Top - End - #371
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    This is really the big problem for the creature - none of those are good enough.

    For the record, the protean proposes partial shapeshift into an umbral blot to explain the escape scene, giving him access to teleportation. It fits that it is a one-time thing, and requires him to look for powers he doesn't know he had, so it is not really comparable to, well, pretty much any other example.

    Grey Wolf
    Yeah, the more I look at this, the more it doesn't fit. I'd been hoping that its cleric levels would give it access to something better and I just didn't know enough of the rules to know that, but since this does seem to just be some homebrew creature, I think it's probably not the MitD. Shame- it's not often you get something so high CR with divine casting who doesn't have raise undead or immunity to mind control.
    Last edited by DaggerPen; 2013-03-07 at 09:10 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    There's an Asura in the Book of Exalted Deeds that bears no relation to this one (roughly human size, CR8, one face), so it seems like pure homebrew.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    I would argue wisdom makes more sense to me than intelligence.

    Also, just because one has the tongues ability, doesn't mean that it wouldn't be odd to hear it speaking common. However, something to think about. Would the BGH's think of this creature as "a catch" as it were. That is something else I have thought about before....what is considered "a catch" for them? Any creature in the OOTS universe?

    I am with GW and like the fact that it is a neutral divine creature, that is points in its favor for me as well.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_D&Der View Post
    I would argue wisdom makes more sense to me than intelligence.
    How so? MitD has displayed many instances of low wisdom, and a few occasions of high intelligence. I suppose you could argue that because he has low wisdom, he can't cast often, nor the whole range of spells his creature type would normally have access to, and that only in his highest moment of fear did he get a circumstantial bonus to wisdom...

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_D&Der View Post
    Also, just because one has the tongues ability, doesn't mean that it wouldn't be odd to hear it speaking common.
    If the tongues ability works anything like the religious concept it is named after, it should always give the listeners the impression that the creature is speaking in their native language, regardless of what the creature is actually speaking in, just like the TARDIS translation circuit. It wouldn't be surprising at all to hear it speaking in common, because they would always sound like they are speaking in common.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_D&Der View Post
    Would the BGH's think of this creature as "a catch" as it were. That is something else I have thought about before....what is considered "a catch" for them? Any creature in the OOTS universe?
    Literally, "something that can be sold for enough money that they can afford to lift the SBGH's curse".

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    While I no longer think the Asura is a possibility- the fact that it's a homebrew and that there's another really low CR Asura in D&D already killed it for me- it may be worth noting for any other creatures that may have access to cleric spells that both Teleport and Greater Teleport are available to clerics with the Travel domain as 5th and 7th level spells, respectively: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm. So, any other creatures with cleric spells available who do NOT have access to undead-raising abilities could potentially have teleport or greater teleport.

    Also, it looks like all undead-creating abilities are, unsurprisingly, in the Death and Evil domains exclusively, so creatures with cleric abilities who don't have those domains are probably in the clear, as long as they otherwise qualify, assuming I'm not totally lost on how cleric spells work.
    Last edited by DaggerPen; 2013-03-07 at 09:34 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    Also, it looks like all undead-creating abilities are, unsurprisingly, in the Death and Evil domains exclusively, so creatures with cleric abilities who don't have those domains are probably in the clear, as long as they otherwise qualify, assuming I'm not totally lost on how cleric spells work.
    Hopefully someone can guide us here, but it comes down to: if your deity is fine with undead, it can grant you the spell outside of your domain. Usually, only Good deities have an issue with undead, but Good deities and their servants are out already due to the usual moral argument. Everything else, especially embodiments of law and chaos like the one you proposed wouldn't have a limitation, I don't think.

    That's the advantage of clerical magic, in the end: your range of spell selection is the best in the game.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Hopefully someone can guide us here, but it comes down to: if your deity is fine with undead, it can grant you the spell outside of your domain. Usually, only Good deities have an issue with undead, but Good deities and their servants are out already due to the usual moral argument. Everything else, especially embodiments of law and chaos like the one you proposed wouldn't have a limitation, I don't think.

    That's the advantage of clerical magic, in the end: your range of spell selection is the best in the game.

    Grey Wolf
    Hrm. Do you know if it would be possible for Redcloak to be at least reasonably certain that MITD could not raise undead? Ah, but he said "unless you've gained about [I forget how many] levels of cleric," so one presumes MitD doesn't have cleric levels after all. So I guess we're back to the usual suspects.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    How so? MitD has displayed many instances of low wisdom, and a few occasions of high intelligence. I suppose you could argue that because he has low wisdom, he can't cast often, nor the whole range of spells his creature type would normally have access to, and that only in his highest moment of fear did he get a circumstantial bonus to wisdom...
    Oh, for some reason I was thinking it was always the other way around.....carry on!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    If the tongues ability works anything like the religious concept it is named after, it should always give the listeners the impression that the creature is speaking in their native language, regardless of what the creature is actually speaking in, just like the TARDIS translation circuit. It wouldn't be surprising at all to hear it speaking in common, because they would always sound like they are speaking in common.
    Oh, I just didn't understand the ability. But saying "Tardis translation circuit" makes complete sense to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Literally, "something that can be sold for enough money that they can afford to lift the SBGH's curse".

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    Gotcha....ok cool. Makes sense
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    Also, it looks like all undead-creating abilities are, unsurprisingly, in the Death and Evil domains exclusively
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm

    Note: Clr 3, Death 3. A character with the Death domain could prepare it in a domain slot, but any cleric (who isn't barred from casting spells with the Evil descriptor) can prepare it in a normal slot.

    Contrast Holy Smite, which is listed as Good 4 only, and thus can never be found anywhere but in the domain slot of a cleric with the Good domain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm

    Note: Clr 3, Death 3. A character with the Death domain could prepare it in a domain slot, but any cleric (who isn't barred from casting spells with the Evil descriptor) can prepare it in a normal slot.

    Contrast Holy Smite, which is listed as Good 4 only, and thus can never be found anywhere but in the domain slot of a cleric with the Good domain.
    And that's the nail in the coffin, then. Thanks!

    So am I right in thinking from this that any creature with access to cleric abilities level 3 or above are automatically disqualified by the animate dead criteria?
    Last edited by DaggerPen; 2013-03-07 at 09:53 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    And that's the nail in the coffin, then. Thanks!

    So am I right in thinking from this that any creature with access to cleric abilities level 3 or above are automatically disqualified by the animate dead criteria?
    Almost: their god does get final say on what spells you do get out of the list, so even if you are able to cast it, it doesn't mean it will pass the deity's veto. Durkon would never had got Thor to approve an animate dead spell.

    That means little to MitD, of course, since RC would not have recruited a cleric of a god opposed to his own, so in practice you can pretty much assume that if it the creature has cleric levels, it has access to animate.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    *EDIT* Ah, this seems to be a homebrew version. Not sure when it was created, but that may be a strike against it, too.
    FYI, DandDWiki is somewhat notorious for having (often poor) homebrew not clearly labeled as such. Just something to keep an eye out for if you're using it as a source in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    So am I right in thinking from this that any creature with access to cleric abilities level 3 or above are automatically disqualified by the animate dead criteria?
    Pretty much, as long as they're able to cast [evil] spells. To confirm Redcloak's statement, a cleric must be level 5 to cast 3rd level spells.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    Got a bigger piece going but here's a thought from me on that panel.

    The more interesting thing is where he's holding it IMHO. Looking at his eye's either he's holding his hands up near his mouth or he's holding it in his mouth. Another clue perhaps?

    EDIT: For clarification i'm meaning the last and 4th panels.
    There you go! It's an MLP-style pony, possibly a Unicorn.

    Actually, I said that as a joke, but lets think about how it meshes with Big Scenes.

    1) Big Game hunters recognize the general type of creature, but are surprised to see it in the rainforest. Given that D&D Unicorns usually live in the Plains and don't speak Common, this would surprise them.

    2) The circus thing... Here is where the different art styles between a MLP monster and the Giant's Stick-Style make the creature seem weird and unnatural, but in the right frame of mind, oddly beautiful.

    3) Hitting Miko crazy-hard, BUT Miko walking it off with some effort. ponies kicking things higher than the clouds or crazy-far is not unheard of. More importantly they tend t o have a sense of Toon physics around them, insuring people survive even the craziest of hits. This also explains the ignoring damage from Miko and Belkar, but taking Damage from a paper cut. To reference TV Tropes, the ponies seem to be Made of Iron, in the sense that they are really hard to physically hurt. They only seem to get hurt when it is Amusing Injuries.

    4) The ESCAPE scene; that is explainable by a Unicorn's teleport spell. normally they need to know what they are doing, but some times in stress their magic just activates. This fits with the Giant's statement about Power he didn't know he had. If he had studied Unicorn Magic like MOST Unicorns, he might have learned he could cast a teleport spell.

    5) Misc. Stuff: holding things at mouth-level is how MLP ponies hold things without hands. The latest MLP series came out in 2009, but the franchise as a whole has been around since the early 80s, IIRC. A pony would be light enough for Redcloak to pick up in a box. They are long-lived, thus one who just sort of hung around for 30 years doing nothing interesting could still behave childishly, but have a penchant for Good when pushed by a Paladin. The huge appetite and capacity to devour would be another toon-trait, one we specifically see with Pinkie Pie. They are NOT Immune to Mind-Control, and could be effected by a life-draining Aura, thus satisfying the MitD's known stated weaknesses.

    So despite being a joke entry, it's got at least as good of chance as Snorlax.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    Given that D&D Unicorns usually live in the Plains and don't speak Common, this would surprise them.
    OBJECTION! OotS Unicorns speak Common. It's in No Cure IIRC.

    (And yes, I know this wasn't to be taken seriously).

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by JustIgnoreMe View Post
    OBJECTION! OotS Unicorns speak Common. It's in No Cure IIRC.

    (And yes, I know this wasn't to be taken seriously).
    Really? Dang. There's one hole in my logic.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    On the MitD stomping in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html :

    Doesn't the position of the "stomp" sound suggest that he stomps with a left hind leg? In particular because the crack runs towards Haley and Belkar, and a hind leg would face in the right direction. If it were a biped, he would need to turn his foot in the wrong direction to make the sound originate in that position.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverionmox View Post
    On the MitD stomping in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html :

    Doesn't the position of the "stomp" sound suggest that he stomps with a left hind leg? In particular because the crack runs towards Haley and Belkar, and a hind leg would face in the right direction. If it were a biped, he would need to turn his foot in the wrong direction to make the sound originate in that position.
    I'm not sure I can follow what you're saying completely, but there's one thing I'm sure of:

    It is entirely possible for a human to stomp the ground with their foot going in a general forwards direction. You just have to strike with your heel.

    Also, this info is really only relevant to "if MitD is a quadruped, he must have used such-and-such limb", which doesn't seem helpful in that it doesn't say whether he is a quadruped or not.


    EDIT: Oh, I think I get it. Not sure how you get "left hind leg", but I see where you got "hind".

    Except if, for example, he stoops. Or has a hunchback. Or eyestalks. Or some other word for "is constructed such that his eyes are not directly above his feet". Or has one leg and is constructed as above, or three legs so he's got two on one side and one on the other, in which case he could be using the middle, or eight in which case he pretty much could use any except the front, or... really any arrangement that allows a leg to be angled forwards and land behind the eyes (as viewed from above).
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2013-03-07 at 05:52 PM.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverionmox View Post
    On the MitD stomping in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html :

    Doesn't the position of the "stomp" sound suggest that he stomps with a left hind leg? In particular because the crack runs towards Haley and Belkar, and a hind leg would face in the right direction. If it were a biped, he would need to turn his foot in the wrong direction to make the sound originate in that position.
    If he were a tall biped, and he crouches forward under the umbrella, his leg would also be on a "hind" position (i.e. a ways back from the eyes), as seen for example here. Or he could have used a tail, even if he is standing straight.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    I like the Hagunemnon (Protean) guess, except that they are shapeshifters and "a proteanís form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape" whereas the MitD eyes seldom change. Almost everything else fits.

    Here is the SRD entry and an image: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Hagunemnon http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EP...Hagunemnon.jpg
    Last edited by rodneyAnonymous; 2013-03-09 at 02:09 AM.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by rodneyAnonymous View Post
    I like the Hagunemnon (Protean) guess, except that they are shapeshifters and "a proteanís form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape" whereas the MitD eyes seldom change. Almost everything else fits.

    Here is the SRD entry and an image: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Hagunemnon http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EP...Hagunemnon.jpg
    Ummm, yes? Was that meant to add something to the Protean? Because all that is already in the OP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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