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  1. - Top - End - #391
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by rodneyAnonymous View Post
    I like the Hagunemnon (Protean) guess, except that they are shapeshifters and "a protean’s form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape" whereas the MitD eyes seldom change. Almost everything else fits.

    Here is the SRD entry and an image: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Hagunemnon http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EP...Hagunemnon.jpg
    Except that if Rich's big reveal is "OMG, it's a Protean Hagunemnon" it's going to have all the anticlimax of a wet firecracker.

    Face it, it's not going to be a reference so obscure that you have to dig through books.

  2. - Top - End - #392
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by SavageWombat View Post
    Except that if Rich's big reveal is "OMG, it's a Protean Hagunemnon" it's going to have all the anticlimax of a wet firecracker.

    Face it, it's not going to be a reference so obscure that you have to dig through books.
    You have no evidence for that other than your own extremely subjective personal opinion on Rich's storytelling techniques.

    "Face it, nothing well known fits the MitD."

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2013-03-09 at 04:16 PM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  3. - Top - End - #393
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by SavageWombat View Post
    Except that if Rich's big reveal is "OMG, it's a Protean Hagunemnon" it's going to have all the anticlimax of a wet firecracker.

    Face it, it's not going to be a reference so obscure that you have to dig through books.
    That is assuming that there will even be a big reveal. I don't think there will be any such thing.

    But as Grey Wolf mentioned, it's just subjective. It doesn't help us figure out what is.
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  4. - Top - End - #394
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    You have no evidence for that other than your own extremely subjective personal opinion on Rich's storytelling techniques.

    "Face it, nothing well known fits the MitD."

    Grey Wolf
    Since even the things that "fit" the MitD don't actually "fit" the MitD...

  5. - Top - End - #395
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Ummm, yes? Was that meant to add something to the Protean? Because all that is already in the OP.
    It was adding that I like that guess. Sorry to waste your pixel juice.
    Last edited by rodneyAnonymous; 2013-03-09 at 08:36 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #396
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by SavageWombat View Post
    Since even the things that "fit" the MitD don't actually "fit" the MitD...
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodneyAnonymous View Post
    It was adding that I like that guess. Sorry to waste your pixel juice.
    Unfortunately, what MitD turns out to be isn't subject to personal preference of participants of this thread. Thus, I don't track who said what or how many people agree with them unless it is due to a meta-thread matter.

    Of course, if reader opinion did matter, MitD would be a very confused Tarrasque, so I suppose I could change the first word to "Fortunately".

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2013-03-09 at 08:50 PM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  7. - Top - End - #397
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Of course, if it reader opinion did matter, MitD would be a very confused Tarrasque, so I suppose I could change the first word to "Fortunately".
    I think you mean 'half-Snarl tarresque'
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by CloakedDancer View Post
    That is assuming that there will even be a big reveal. I don't think there will be any such thing.

    But as Grey Wolf mentioned, it's just subjective. It doesn't help us figure out what is.
    I'm not sure where he said it, but I recall Rich himself saying that the MitD WILL eventually be revealed. It's a matter of when, not if.
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  9. - Top - End - #399
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatNickGuy View Post
    I'm not sure where he said it, but I recall Rich himself saying that the MitD WILL eventually be revealed. It's a matter of when, not if.
    SoD, commentary. Edit: faulty recollection. Wherever he said so, he did not say that it would be a big reveal.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2013-03-09 at 09:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    So I just noticed on the Haguemnon that it says:
    "Plus, it gains the advantage of up to four extraordinary abilities from the forms it mimics (but not spell-like or supernatural powers)."
    So does that mean it can do wish, teleport, etc? I just don't know what the difference between the extraordinary abilities and the spell-like abilities are, like is wish a spell-like ability or an extraordinary ability? I would think any type of teleport would be a spell-like ability.
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  11. - Top - End - #401
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_D&Der View Post
    So I just noticed on the Haguemnon that it says:


    So does that mean it can do wish, teleport, etc? I just don't know what the difference between the extraordinary abilities and the spell-like abilities are, like is wish a spell-like ability or an extraordinary ability? I would think any type of teleport would be a spell-like ability.
    Wish is almost always spell-like or supernatural, though there is the umbral blot which has greater teleport as an extraordinary ability (as detailed in the first post), which could explain the escape.

  12. - Top - End - #402
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_D&Der View Post
    So does that mean it can do wish, teleport, etc? I just don't know what the difference between the extraordinary abilities and the spell-like abilities are, like is wish a spell-like ability or an extraordinary ability? I would think any type of teleport would be a spell-like ability.
    It can, if there is a creature that has "wish" or "teleport" as an extraordinary ability (Ex) rather than spell-like (Sp)(link). Wish is rare enough that no creature ever proposed has had it as anything other than a Sp, but the Umbral Blot can teleport as an Ex.

    In theory, Ex are better than Sp (they can't be counter-spelled, for example), but for the protean, it is a serious limitation when compared to unbridled shapechange, since the selection range is much more limited than if it could simply shape change into anything at all and gain not just their Ex, but their Sps as well.

    Which in a weird way, it turns out to be an pro for the Protean-MitD, since we know Rich doesn't like unbridled shape change, but he might be fine with the limited (while still very powerful) ability of the protean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    -snip-

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    ... You know, I'd laugh if it turned out MitD proved to just be a mook, BUT leveled beyond your wildest dreams... Is there a max level in D&D? Because, if not, then he might just be a almost ridiculously over-powered monster of some-kind...

    Yeah, don't know much about D&D, just throwing my own opinion out there.

    Edit: Dug around for all of five seconds: Levelcaps are determined by the DM, which means they can be at any level you want.
    No level cap specified, that I know of...
    Last edited by The Vagabond; 2013-03-10 at 09:10 PM.


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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vagabond View Post
    ... You know, I'd laugh if it turned out MitD proved to just be a mook, BUT leveled beyond your wildest dreams... Is there a max level in D&D? Because, if not, then he might just be a almost ridiculously over-powered monster of some-kind...

    Yeah, don't know much about D&D, just throwing my own opinion out there.

    Edit: Dug around for all of five seconds: Levelcaps are determined by the DM, which means they can be at any level you want.
    No level cap specified, that I know of...
    *SMACK* (You did ask me to do this)

    We have a general rule of thumb that character levels are out, because you violate the "figured out" clause that is the basis for all this. You could probably turn a potted plant into MITD if you gave it enough levels. (Rule's somewhere in the OP.)
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by ReaderAt2046 View Post
    *SMACK* (You did ask me to do this)

    We have a general rule of thumb that character levels are out, because you violate the "figured out" clause that is the basis for all this. You could probably turn a potted plant into MITD if you gave it enough levels. (Rule's somewhere in the OP.)
    *Rubs face* Sworry.

    Anyway, I'm wondering (Since I have no idea what half of the things are) which do you think is actually the most likely? Because, as of right now, I have no idea what half of the third post is saying.


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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    All the creatures under 3.a (Fits Big Scenes) are the most likely candidates we have. Most of them have a link to where you can read about them; the ones that don't have a book and page number if you can get the books to look them up.
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  18. - Top - End - #408
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by ReaderAt2046 View Post
    We have a general rule of thumb that character levels are out, because you violate the "figured out" clause that is the basis for all this. You could probably turn a potted plant into MITD if you gave it enough levels. (Rule's somewhere in the OP.)
    To clarify, they're not out so much as discouraged, precisely because of the potted plant proposition, and because we do have very decent candidates that don't need it. Had we not had those, class levels (or templates, or the other augmentation techniques in 2d) would have been good ways to try to fit MitD, but with some creatures not requiring them, they are clutches.

    This would change in a heartbeat if we had evidence of any of these (say, MitD admitting to being a half-breed, or having class levels in something other than cleric, which we already know he doesn't have).

    Quote Originally Posted by The Vagabond View Post
    Anyway, I'm wondering (Since I have no idea what half of the things are) which do you think is actually the most likely? Because, as of right now, I have no idea what half of the third post is saying.
    As Savannah said, FBS are our "best of the crop" by my arbitrary but quite objective measure of having explanations for the three major MitD scenes. Peruse at your leisure, and feel free to come back with questions if you have any.

    Yours,

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2013-03-10 at 10:20 PM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  19. - Top - End - #409
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    I think the big reveal will come in Kraagor's tomb / dungeon. Serini filled it with the "nastiest monsters in the world" so I think it'd be a good place where MitD finds a relative and we figure out what exactly he is.

    Ultimately that's where I think he'll be forced to make a tough choice between his allegiance to Xykon and his fondness for O-chul/doing the right thing. After all, O-chul is up there now so if he's going to meet up with O-chul again it's likely MitD will head up that way.

    But that is all probably beyond the scope of this thread.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Something just hit me while wondering the archives. 709. At the end it's raining for our pal the paladin. I'm dis-inclined to believe this was anymore a coincidence than the first time. But it also doesn't seem to be a world wide event which means it was actually targeted on O-Chul. But how could the MitD have unknowingly discerned his location. Specifically where told in the same panel that Cloister should make him unfindable for weeks, so how was he found. I'm not sure enough on the D&D rules to know if non-spell affects which replicate the effects of a specific spell might bypass cloister. But if they don't dosen't that indicate that the MitD somehow has access to epic level magic/abilities. Not really a surprise he's epic level equivalent if that is the case, but still, important info maybe?

    Sorry if i'm re-opening an old discussion, just hit me and i wanted to share asap.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    Sorry if i'm re-opening an old discussion, just hit me and i wanted to share asap.
    Just to be clear, are you trying to argue that MitD caused the rain in general, or that he only was able to cause the rain at that point in time because the cloister effect on O'Chul let up?

    Edit: I'm still not clear on what the point is, but the answer will depend on what ability MitD would be using, which will itself depend on what MitD actually is. Some would be affected by cloister, and some wouldn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  22. - Top - End - #412
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    My point is i'm not convinced that the rain in that last panel wasn't caused by the MitD but for it to only affect the area around O-Chul, (i.e. not be planet wide), it would have to be targeted on him. Which means that the MitD must somehow have been able to track him down despite the Cloister supposedly blocking all that stuff.

    Now obviously the MitD isn't aware he's done this, so he's not consciously tracked him down, (i..e it's another case of achievements in ignorance for our cute little monster san) or whatever but i'm still not clear on weather there's anything besides epic magic than could track him through Cloister.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Remember that that argument is based on the proposition that the rain was a display of Mitd's leet powers rather than just a storytelling device.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    My point is i'm not convinced that the rain in that last panel wasn't caused by the MitD but for it to only affect the area around O-Chul, (i.e. not be planet wide), it would have to be targeted on him. Which means that the MitD must somehow have been able to track him down despite the Cloister supposedly blocking all that stuff.

    Now obviously the MitD isn't aware he's done this, so he's not consciously tracked him down, (i..e it's another case of achievements in ignorance for our cute little monster san) or whatever but i'm still not clear on weather there's anything besides epic magic than could track him through Cloister.
    As I said above, even assuming MitD caused that particular rain - a large stretch- you'd need to examine the problem on a spell-by-spell basis. If Wish was involved, for example ("I wish O'Chul was rained upon to help him sleep"), the cloister wouldn't stop it since he was neither scrying nor contacting O'Chul. A regular "make rain ability wouldn't be stopped either, except MitD wouldn't have a way to aim it, but if that aiming was done without scrying, it would also not be blocked by the cloister.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Another thing - if he'd used the wish to do exactly what he said
    -helping you sleep-
    then the rain probably wouldn't be pouring down and keeping him miserable.

    Just my two cents.
    Quote Originally Posted by ActionReplay View Post
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Elemental View Post
    Another thing - if he'd used the wish to do exactly what he said
    -helping you sleep-
    then the rain probably wouldn't be pouring down and keeping him miserable.

    Just my two cents.
    O-Chul appeared to be sleeping fine, it was Lien I think that hated the rain, still it being a joke makes me less likely to think its a clue.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Remember that that argument is based on the proposition that the rain was a display of Mitd's leet powers rather than just a storytelling device.
    True but i really don't believe the rain incident way back in strip 550 was concidance, too contrived. And if that was the MitD i see no reason to not suppose it's a distinct possibility that the second incident was. No proof of course but I'm not going to assume it isn't any-more than I'd assume it absolutely is.

    @GWc: Fair point on wish, but if it wasn't wish how would the MitD find O-Chul. Our friendly Goth seemed to think it was impossible thanks to Cloister without epic magic. But is that totally accurate?

    Like i said i know we can't assume the rain was absolutely the MitD but the worst thing you can do in a guessing game like this is g in with pre-conceived notions. By looking at the maybe's we might come up with a potential capability that's unique to a monster that everyone's overlooked on account of it being otherwise totally forgettable.

    As the old saying goes. You don't hide something in the last place anyone would look, you hide it where no one will ever look.

    On wish as a subject. Can it replicate Raise dead spells and the like? If so wouldn't redcloaks comment in one of the prequel books preclude the MitD having it, (unless redcloak missed the fact that the MitD has acess when he looked him up)?

    Yes my rule knowledge is weak. Sorry.

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    True but i really don't believe the rain incident way back in strip 550 was concidance, too contrived. And if that was the MitD i see no reason to not suppose it's a distinct possibility that the second incident was. No proof of course but I'm not going to assume it isn't any-more than I'd assume it absolutely is.

    @GWc: Fair point on wish, but if it wasn't wish how would the MitD find O-Chul. Our friendly Goth seemed to think it was impossible thanks to Cloister without epic magic. But is that totally accurate?

    Like i said i know we can't assume the rain was absolutely the MitD but the worst thing you can do in a guessing game like this is g in with pre-conceived notions. By looking at the maybe's we might come up with a potential capability that's unique to a monster that everyone's overlooked on account of it being otherwise totally forgettable.

    As the old saying goes. You don't hide something in the last place anyone would look, you hide it where no one will ever look.

    On wish as a subject. Can it replicate Raise dead spells and the like? If so wouldn't redcloaks comment in one of the prequel books preclude the MitD having it, (unless redcloak missed the fact that the MitD has acess when he looked him up)?

    Yes my rule knowledge is weak. Sorry.
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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    After spending some time on other parts of the forum, I'd just like to take a moment to mention that, occasional tarrasque flare-ups aside, this thread is easily one of the best on this forum, and full of some of the nicest people and the best discussion. So, thanks, everyone, especially Grey_Wolf for the incredible amount of work he puts in to maintaining this thread.

    Going back to discussion of the MitD, if we're going to discuss the possibility that he caused the rain, I'd like to ask- what spells *could* have caused the rain? I assume Wish would work, and probably also Miracle and Limited Wish, but what else is there? Control Weather seems to be limited to a 2-mile radius centered on the caster, so it can't be that. There's a Weather Domain for cleric abilities, but it's extraordinarily unlikely that MitD has cleric abilities. There are some druid spells that could have weathery effects, but I don't think there's many epic creatures with druid abilities, especially not ones that also have teleport, though I confess to not knowing much about druids. That aside, their weather control stuff is more along the lines of Storm of Vengeance, which is somewhat less than soothing. Are there any I'm missing?

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    Default Re: MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    So, thanks, everyone, especially Grey_Wolf for the incredible amount of work he puts in to maintaining this thread.
    Thanks, DaggerPen. Much appreciated. I too have recently dared brave other threads, and after some not-too-fun back-and-forths, I think I will once again retreat to this one (and the Girl Genius one).

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    Going back to discussion of the MitD, if we're going to discuss the possibility that he caused the rain,
    Can't answer your actual question, since I don't have the required encyclopedic knowledge of the 3.5 spell system, but I want to point out again, for the record, that it is already a stretch to assume MitD cause the first downpour (although that one could easily be explained by Control Weather).

    It is even a larger stretch to posit that MitD caused the second downpour. The cutaway shows the downpour already in process, and a quite happily sleeping O-Chul, unlike the first time when it is suggested that MitD causes the rain because O-Chul is starting to feel sleepy. Add to that the distance and uncertain location (even if the cloister wasn't in the way), and I doubt anything short of Wish can actually explain it, unless we also add a number of supporting spells to extend range of casting and determine location.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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