MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

[DaggerPen]

hey, just an idea:

the MitD does not see any gates, because it knows what a gate looks like. namely, a gate looks like one of the things redcloak makes here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html

if MitD thinks that whenever redcloak and xykon talk about a gate, they're talking about one of the kind that redcloak can summon, then his responses suddenly make a lot of sense.

"okey, you're pointing to a giant archway with a rift inside, now where is this gate you're talking about?"

then, we have the statement MitD makes in this strip: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0096.html

"if there was a gate of some sort, i should have - " which could easily be finished with something like "i should have noticed", or "i should have seen it".

put this together with the hint that MitD might have been to the astral plane before, and i think that the MitD has used gates the past, and i wouldn't be surprised if he can cast the spell himself.

no clue if this helps anything, as i don't really play DnD myself, but at least my money goes to any creature that can cast gate ;-)

I really like that explanation, but I agree with Grey_Wolf that it doesn't give us much in the way of MitD clues, alas.

[Eisenfavl]

Yes, I agree. But, to further complicate matters, Xykon didn't actually use the correct name for the ability. The ability is indeed called "swallow whole" and does indeed require the target to be at least one category size smaller.

Gape of the Serpent [Monstrous]

Like a snake, you can stretch your mouth to an outlandish extent to accommodate immense prey.

Prerequisite: Swallow whole special attack.

Benefit: You can swallow a creature of up to your own size category. Swallowing a creature as big as yourself, however, is a time-consuming process. Once you have established a hold against such a creature, you make a new grapple check as usual, but success indicates only that you have begun to swallow. On the following round, you must make an additional grapple check to complete the swallowing. The held creature can fight or try to break the grapple as normal while you are attempting to swallow it.

Normal: Unless otherwise noted, a creature can swallow opponents up to one size category smaller than itself.

Special: Your gullet can hold one creature of the maximum size. Other maximum numbers of swallowed creatures remain the same.

10characters

[Tryfan]

For the circus scene are there any abilities out there that have different effects on nearby characters depending upon alignment? eg if a charecter is evil it is unaffected but good aligned characters could be nauseated, neutral slightly sick.

I don't think it's likely to be an explanation for the circus as O-chul would have to have been unaffected (although I'd assume he does have a strong stomach, or at least the willpower to conceal it), as would the order of the stick in the first fight.

[Azukar]

So probably I'm not adding anything new to this discussion, but...

Let's say that one of the Big Important Scenes is actually a red herring. I'm thinking of the circus act, in particular. Is there any good reason why the act at the circus couldn't have been the MitD covered in something, dressed up, enchanted with something, etc etc? After all, the Big Game Hunters weren't even phased by its appearance, nor were the goblins. Xykon thinks the MitD is ugly, but that's about it. It's a throwaway gag, but one of the hobgoblins in a filler strip got a good look at the MitD and was more excited than scared about the idea of revealing it.

If that was the case, what would it mean for the possible predictions?

Edit: also, apparently I don't read posts carefully enough, as the post right above mine has a similar theory!

[allenw]

Let's say that one of the Big Important Scenes is actually a red herring. I'm thinking of the circus act, in particular. Is there any good reason why the act at the circus couldn't have been the MitD covered in something, dressed up, enchanted with something, etc etc?

I think this is very unlikely. The circus scene is the first big clue Rich ever gave us about the MitD, and it occured in a book whose primary function was to give vital backstory for Team Evil. Having it be deliberately misleading seems counterproductive, and unlike Rich's usual style.

And before someone brings up Miko's first appearance, that wasn't a clue about a known and long-speculated-about character; that was foreshadowing that a previously-unknown character existed. And it wasn't entirely misleading, either.

[Kish]

Possible, yes. Any of the clues could be a red herring.

Is this a useful line of reasoning? Not unless you have something specific in mind, and something that is a far more compelling possibility than any of the current FBS creatures. If we presume any clue that could be a red herring is one then we might as well give up right now.

[Qwertystop]

10characters

Well, that's certainly a useful discovery.


See, people-who-will-probably-pop-up-at-some-point-and-say-we've-run-out-of-possibilities? There are still things we haven't found yet!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

For the circus scene are there any abilities out there that have different effects on nearby characters depending upon alignment? eg if a charecter is evil it is unaffected but good aligned characters could be nauseated, neutral slightly sick.

Maybe? There is a billion abilities in D&D, I'd be surprised if there wasn't one that only affected some people. IIRC, Succubus and Incubus have auras that only affect the opposite sex, so what you request isn't outlandish.

I can't give you an specific example though. However, bear in mind that we know that the goblin have seen MitD before, unlike everyone else.

I don't think it's likely to be an explanation for the circus as O-chul would have to have been unaffected (although I'd assume he does have a strong stomach, or at least the willpower to conceal it), as would the order of the stick in the first fight.

Not if the ability only triggers when you get to see MitD. O-Chul and the order have never actually seen it.

---

Re: "red herring" idea: What allenw and Kish said.

Grey Wolf

[Throknor]

Maybe? There is a billion abilities in D&D, I'd be surprised if there wasn't one that only affected some people. IIRC, Succubus and Incubus have auras that only affect the opposite sex, so what you request isn't outlandish.

I can't give you an specific example though. However, bear in mind that we know that the goblin have seen MitD before, unlike everyone else.

Not if the ability only triggers when you get to see MitD. O-Chul and the order have never actually seen it.


Grey Wolf

Also, the audience were mostly commoners. As I recall (books are packed) the wizard wasn't repulsed, he just didn't know what he saw. A level cutoff or even a saving throw could explain why O-Chul would be okay, if it is revealed he peeked at some point.

But I think this ends up as one of those broad points that will make sense in retrospect, but isn't specific enough now to eliminate or suggest.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But I think this ends up as one of those broad points that will make sense in retrospect, but isn't specific enough now to eliminate or suggest.

I like to think of them as "perfect for the correct proposal". If someone does find a creature that has a medusa-like ability to make people vomit/feel queasy if they are legal/good, then the above interpretation of the scene will fit like a glove.

GW

[Silverionmox]

What about a prismatic dragon? Surely that can produce light effects that are pretty, fascinating, nauseating or, ugly for people of the undead persuasion.

It would give some backup to the MitD's persistent desire to get into the light.

It's also strong enough, albeit perhaps too big for the cage.

They have sorcerer levels, so there must be something that can be serve for the escape scene.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What about a prismatic dragon? Surely that can produce light effects that are pretty, fascinating, nauseating or, ugly for people of the undead persuasion.

It would give some backup to the MitD's persistent desire to get into the light.

It's also strong enough, albeit perhaps too big for the cage.

They have sorcerer levels, so there must be something that can be serve for the escape scene.

They are way too recognisable as dragons for anyone to display one as an "IT", and I can't imagine that a creature type that gets turned into the local teddy bear equivalent would ever make someone go "huh, never seen something like that before".

Grey Wolf

[Silverionmox]

They might be referring to the lightshow, though. But yeah, it's probably too bland for a Mystery Guest.

[rweird]

They might be referring to the lightshow, though. But yeah, it's probably too bland for a Mystery Guest.

Not to mention to big, wyrmlings and younglings are Huge, after 30 years, they become gargantuan (or larger). I highly doubt that proposal for those reasons alone.

[Belkar<3]

My friend and I believe that the MitD is a Zodar. Zodars have the power of the Wish ability once in a very long time (explaining "Escape", and the fact the MitD could not perform Wish later) , are extremely strong, have massive damage reduction (50/+5), and usually attack unarmed, still inflicting huge amounts of damage. Zodars get a +20 on Intimidation checks, which could explain why Belkar gave in to cooking for him. Of course, this is only a theory, and some things don't really fit.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My friend and I believe that the MitD is a Zodar. Zodars have the power of the Wish ability once in a very long time (explaining "Escape", and the fact the MitD could not perform Wish later) , are extremely strong, have massive damage reduction (50/+5), and usually attack unarmed, still inflicting huge amounts of damage. Zodars get a +20 on Intimidation checks, which could explain why Belkar gave in to cooking for him. Of course, this is only a theory, and some things don't really fit.

As explained in the first post, the biggest problem for the zodar is the physical appearance. A guy in black armour would not make for a very interesting circus show, and certainly not one that made people vomit or go "huh, never seen one of those before".

Yes, the zodar doesn't actually have a person inside, but most people wouldn't know that, and just see a black armour: nothing special about it.

Also, the official zodar is a construct, which means it doesn't sleep.

Grey Wolf

[Belkar<3]

As explained in the first post, the biggest problem for the zodar is the physical appearance. A guy in black armour would not make for a very interesting circus show, and certainly not one that made people vomit or go "huh, never seen one of those before".

Yes, the zodar doesn't actually have a person inside, but most people wouldn't know that, and just see a black armour: nothing special about it.

Also, the official zodar is a construct, which means it doesn't sleep.

Grey Wolf

True, but Zodars are rare, and the MitD is quite special.

I have question: Did Rich ever say that the MitD was explicitly based on one monster alone? Please corret me if I am wrong

[rweird]

True, but Zodars are rare, and the MitD is quite special.

I have question: Did Rich ever say that the MitD was explicitly based on one monster alone? Please corret me if I am wrong

Have you seen a suit of black armor before? Would you, say "I've never seen anything like it" if you see one? If the comment was "Wow, I never thought I'd see one of those." I might believe Zodar, but black armor in a fantasy game is to ordinary.

Rich said "I am confident it can be figured out." It might be a cross between something, though that couldn't really be figured out from information given, just guessed, and it isn't a "therblewelkasaurus" or something else he made up, as a cross of creatures would be.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

True, but Zodars are rare, and the MitD is quite special.

Apples and oranges. You can't sell a zodar to a circus for being "rare". You can only sell it to a circus if it will make for a good act, and the zodar, as described, isn't.

I have question: Did Rich ever say that the MitD was explicitly based on one monster alone? Please corret me if I am wrong

No, he hasn't given such explicit description. But he also hasn't given any evidence that he is a mix of creatures.

The relevant words he specifically used are in the first post; I suggest you familiarise yourself with it.

Grey Wolf

[Belkar<3]

I guess it's true that one wouldn't throw up seeing a suit of armor . . Still, I think the Zodar's abilities are a decent match.

[KillItWithFire]

I guess it's true that one wouldn't throw up seeing a suit of armor . . Still, I think the Zodar's abilities are a decent match.

It's a far better match than most, that's why it's up there in the proposed ideas section. If you want to get it promoted higher though, you're going to have to explain to gray wolf how it gets around the problems he raised. Every entry has to withstand such treatment, gray wolf's job is to question every creature that is proposed so that we have a visible metric to grade each proposal by.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's a far better match than most, that's why it's up there in the proposed ideas section.

Small correction: everything that is minimally defended ends up in the first post, good and bad alike (we have a centaur, for Thor's sake). The way you can tell it is better than most is by noting that it has a full pro-cons write-up, rather than a quick couple of sentences like "nice strength, but can't explain the escape" that regular entries get. For particularly good ideas, I try to go the extra mile.

(also, Grey Wolf. As the old timers on the thread have heard me say before, gray is a color. Grey is a colour.)

GW

[Bulldog Psion]

(also, Grey Wolf. As the old timers on the thread have heard me say before, gray is a color. Grey is a colour.)

GW

Interestingly, I'm an American, but I prefer the "grey" spelling, though I prefer American spelling in most instances.

[KillItWithFire]

Small correction: everything that is minimally defended ends up in the first post, good and bad alike (we have a centaur, for Thor's sake). The way you can tell it is better than most is by noting that it has a full pro-cons write-up, rather than a quick couple of sentences like "nice strength, but can't explain the escape" that regular entries get. For particularly good ideas, I try to go the extra mile.

(also, Grey Wolf. As the old timers on the thread have heard me say before, gray is a color. Grey is a colour.)

GW

I see. I had thought we had differentiated more than that. My mistake. Also sorry about the gra/ey thing... Second time today I've used the wrong version in two entirely unrelated cases.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I see. I had thought we had differentiated more than that. My mistake.

Nah, not to worry. We did consider (briefly) a tiered system a while back. Interestingly, it happened around the time zodar was first proposed, precisely because I couldn't justify including it in the FBS (which at the time were called forerunners, to much general confusion about what I meant by that). By then, the proposal list was starting to become unmanageable. But several posters pointed out that the FBS system already gets me in enough trouble. If we used any form of ranking (like say, a star system where each scene that was explained gave you a star) would only multiply the number of people insisting that their suggestion should get [number of stars I gave] +1, while in the current system we only get those very occasionally, mostly for suggestions that did not quite make FBS. From a thread perspective, too, it would only make it harder to find the proposals, if I put them in even more subcategories.

Those arguments made sense, so I dropped the idea. These days, if pressed, I would be more likely to just drop the FBS than I would be to add another classification. Too many people still misunderstand what the FBS is (as was obvious couple of pages ago). The copyrighted list is easy enough (and dead, anyway), and the joke list was always more for my private use than a serious compilation. That leaves the frequently proposed as the only one that has subjective entry level ("Thor, not again!" feelings), but strangely I have never had a complaint about that particular group, go figure.

In the end, I am just a curator. If someone goes to the lengths of proposing a creature, I will make note of it. But because the proposal list has over 100 entries now, we do need a showcase of creatures that can fit all the evidence with not too much prodding. I want that list to be between 6 and 12 members long, so if we get too many, I'll tighten the requirements. But that's the thing: too few, and it feels like the thread is playing favourites, or has reached a conclusion: both of those are false. The first, because even though I do have personal preference, as a thread curator I try not to. The second one because the whole concept of "finding the right one" is absurd. This is not a democracy: Rich isn't going to pick the one the thread likes the best. These days, they are a fairly broad representation of ways to fit the clues about MitD to creatures, in quite different ways, but all without having to discard any major clues*.

Too many, of course, and it just gets messy, crowded and as difficult to check out as the proposal list itself.

(Old timers have heard me say all this before, but I think it best to rehash all this every so often so I can continue to feel like the participants in the thread understand what we are doing).

Grey Wolf

*I still remember the time when our best fit was Snorlax...

[KillItWithFire]

It does make sense, the way you do it. I wasn't proposing you change it I just thought that the sections meant something other than what they were intended. More than a curator though, I've always viewed your job as playing the devil's advocate against any suggestion. Because at the end of the day, there is already a real MitD and whether or not you have it on your list is irrelevant, so the best we can do is scrutinize everything and make note of those creatures that withstand that crucible exceptionable well, but someone has to be the one to lay that heat down and as curator it's often you grey. A thankless job as some people get more attached to their proposals than they ought and tend to forget that MitD's identity does not rely on your approval. Just my humble take on the matter, I enjoy discussions like this one and you make for an excellent discussion leader.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

More than a curator though, I've always viewed your job as playing the devil's advocate against any suggestion.

Hehehe. Fair enough. I do wear two hats, curator and anal-retentive bastard :ahem: "detail-oriented critic". As I said two pages ago, even if I wasn't curator I'd still wear my second hat in this thread or its successors.

GW

[KillItWithFire]

Oh, now I think I might have discovered something interesting. Take a look at MitD's eyes when he actually says "escape." They visibly glow, compare them to the panel directly before it. At the very least if we didn't have enough proof already that he caused the escape I'd say it's a fair bit more likely now. I don't know if anyone else ever noticed this before or brought it up, but I'm going to go through the list of comics MitD has appeared in and see if I can find his eyes doing anything similar. Let you know if I find anything.

[Poppatomus]

Oh, now I think I might have discovered something interesting. Take a look at MitD's eyes when he actually says "escape." They visibly glow, compare them to the panel directly before it. At the very least if we didn't have enough proof already that he caused the escape I'd say it's a fair bit more likely now. I don't know if anyone else ever noticed this before or brought it up, but I'm going to go through the list of comics MitD has appeared in and see if I can find his eyes doing anything similar. Let you know if I find anything.

that's an excellent observation. Has any other caster ever had a yellow aura aura around their spells before?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Oh, now I think I might have discovered something interesting. Take a look at MitD's eyes when he actually says "escape." They visibly glow, compare them to the panel directly before it. At the very least if we didn't have enough proof already that he caused the escape I'd say it's a fair bit more likely now. I don't know if anyone else ever noticed this before or brought it up, but I'm going to go through the list of comics MitD has appeared in and see if I can find his eyes doing anything similar. Let you know if I find anything.

To my knowledge no-one has done a comprehensive review of it (thanks, Savannah, for your list that makes it doable!), but the shiny eyes is one of the centerpieces for "the escape was psionic" since it seems that the rules of psionic powers actually require there to be some kind of external manifestation of the power in the form of light, smells, and so on (last time it was mentioned was here).

GW