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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Reworked 3rd Ed.

    As the title implies, a friend and I are slowly working our way through a rewriting of 3rd ed that incorporates a lot of things from Pathfinder, 4th ed, D&D next, etc. We're calling it 3.U for ultimate cause I cant think of a better label.

    But anyway, i'll be posting here things we are working on for feedback and ideas if anyone wants to provide them.

    To begin with:

    Edit:
    A: Action economy has been redone In one round you get:
    -A standard action (spell, maneuver or full attack). Can trade for a second move action
    -A move action
    -A minor action (a ToB boost or stance shift, using a magic item or some skills, etc)
    -A reaction (attack of OP, counterspell, etc). You get another reaction if you use your standard action to ready an action.
    Note: Combat reflexes grants you a second reaction per round and counterspelling is a spellcraft check.
    B: Weapons are categorized so weapon mastery (replaces focus/specialization) covers all weapons in that category
    C: You unlock the benefits and more damage of weapons the more skilled you are in them (unskilled = basic, skilled = competent, mastery = specialization)
    D: Your progress to next level up will be % based instead of reaching a number of XP. Combat, plot and RP all give % increases to your level instead of XP. This is much easier for both the player to keep track of and the DM to hand out.

    1: Initiative now includes your WIS modifier
    2: Your AC now includes half your BAB (which is now a decimal rounded down for use in multiclassing and such)
    3: Mothballed
    4: Leadership will not be a feat and will not be under the complete control of the player.
    5: Alignment is now five by five instead of three by three, as SonofZeal's fix
    6: Advantage and disadvantage is incorporated. Not as frequently as D&D Next, but still around (Charging gives adv. on attack roll, being under the effects of fear gives disadv; etc)
    7: Bloodied is brought in from 4th ed
    8: Skills have been reworked like so, with a few changes
    9: Mettle is now broken down into Fort and Will separately (with the Will save version being called Resolve). Most classes will have one of Evasion, Mettle or Resolve.
    10: ToB is being incorporated into most martial classes. Rogues and gishes get a dabble too. The Disciplines and their contents will be tweaked a little but it will be more or less the same.
    11: Default spellcasting system is Vancian style for simplicity, but spell points and a truenaming styled system are alternatives being worked on.
    12: Higher level casting is more restricted so the majority of spells in each school are only accessible to those who specialize in that school (in summary: Any spells up to 3rd level, spells from 4th to 6th require spell focus in that school and from 7th to 9th require greater spell focus in that school)
    13: Mothballed. Metamagic reductions are no more though
    14: WBL is now a suggestion. CR still exists, but is going to be tweaked.
    15: Progressions will be as so:
    Good, average and poor saves (+12, +9 and +6)
    Good, average and poor BAB (+20, +15 and +10)
    Good, average and poor skills per level (+6, +4 and +2)
    Good, average and poor Spellcasting progression (9th, 6th and 4th)
    Good, average and poor ToB progression ([25, 18 and 11 maneuvers known][6, 4 and 2 stances known][12, 8 and 4 maneuvers ready])
    16: Feat every odd level as Pathfinder
    17: Races slightly more powerful, on par with Pathfinder
    18: Recovering HP via rest will be either con mod x character level or something similar.
    19: Abilities & Point buy is like so: You start with a 10 in every stat and are given points to spend on a one for one basis, to a max of 18 and a min of 8 before racial modifiers. You also get ability increases every 4 levels:
    High Fantasy: 14 point buy, +1 to four abilities every 4 levels
    Average Game: 12 point buy, +1 to three abilities every 4 levels
    Gritty Game: 10 point buy, +1 to two abilities every 4 levels

    Classes:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Barbarian (Nearing Completion)
    Fighter (Nearing Completion)
    Paladin (Done). Smite will be different to both 3.5 and Pathfinder
    Ranger (Nearing Completion)
    Wizard (Done)
    Rogue (Nearing Completion)
    Cleric (In Progress)
    Gish (In Progress)
    Artificer/Alchemist (Nearing Completion)


    Mothballed Ideas/Changes
    Spoiler
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    3. Appearance is a secondary stat that sits just behind the Six pirmaries (Str, con, dex, int, is, cha). It is the average of your physical stats plus your Cha modifier. We don't have any idea what we are going to use it for yet
    13. Metamagic cannot be stacked. Sorry twin empowered intensified fireball.


    Feel free to comment on anything you like, PEACH is encouraged!
    Last edited by Kane0; 2012-09-02 at 05:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    - Your AC now includes half your BAB (which is now a decimal rounded down for use in multiclassing and such)
    I hope that means what I think it means: that a Cleric 1/Rogue 1 character would have a BAB of 1 (because each class level in those gives her 0.75 BAB).


    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    - Appearance is a secondary stat that sits just behind the Six pirmaries (Str, con, dex, int, is, cha). It is the average of your physical stats plus your Cha modifier. We don't have any idea what we are going to use it for yet
    I wouldn't bother, really. Just make Attractive a feat, instead (can improve the attitude of NPCs who would be attracted to you, gives a small circumstance bonus to your group's speaker when diplomacizing, gives a bonus when dealing with high society or vain people or admirers of beauty or attempting to seduce someone, gives a penalty when begging or otherwise trying to act pitiable).


    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    - Advantage and disadvantage is incorporated. Not as frequently as D&D Next, but still around (Charging gives adv. on attack roll, being feared gives disadv; etc)
    I think that should just be "fear gives disadv". Being feared tends to work out pretty well for people, in the short run. =)

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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midwoka View Post
    I hope that means what I think it means: that a Cleric 1/Rogue 1 character would have a BAB of 1 (because each class level in those gives her 0.75 BAB).
    Indeed it does

    Quote Originally Posted by Midwoka View Post
    I wouldn't bother, really. Just make Attractive a feat, instead (can improve the attitude of NPCs who would be attracted to you, gives a small circumstance bonus to your group's speaker when diplomacizing, gives a bonus when dealing with high society or vain people or admirers of beauty or attempting to seduce someone, gives a penalty when begging or otherwise trying to act pitiable).
    You don't really want a feat to look pretty, do you? Besides, the mechanical benefit would probably be linked to charisma in some way, which is what spawned its creation in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midwoka View Post
    I think that should just be "fear gives disadv". Being feared tends to work out pretty well for people, in the short run. =)
    Very true what i meant was the line of fear conditions though, as an example.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2012-08-25 at 08:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    - Your AC now includes half your BAB (which is now a decimal rounded down for use in multiclassing and such)
    - Appearance is a secondary stat that sits just behind the Six pirmaries (Str, con, dex, int, is, cha). It is the average of your physical stats plus your Cha modifier. We don't have any idea what we are going to use it for yet
    - We have plans to make leadership in a similar way (as a secondary stat).
    - Bloodied is brought in from 4th ed
    - Mettle is now broken down into Fort and Will seperately (with the Will save version being called Resolve). Most classes will have one of Evasion, Mettle or Resolve.
    - ToB is being incorporated into most martial classes. Rogues and gishes get a dabble too.
    - Default spellcasting system is Vancian style for simplicity, but spell points and a truenaming styled system are alternatives being worked on.
    - Higher level casting is more restricted so the better spells of each school are only accessible to those who specialise in that school (in summary: Any spells up to 3rd level, some spells from 4th to 6th require spell focus in that school and some from 7th to 9th require greater spell focus in that school)

    Edit
    - Metamagic cannot be stacked. Sorry twin empowered intensified fireball.
    - WBL has been scrapped. CR still exists, but is going to be looked at.:
    Numbers corrispond to bullet:
    1: Factional Saves need to be included also
    2: unless you want to really reduce the Succubus's D-cup of hotness's LA, doesnt really seem useful
    3: It already is based off of a secondary stat
    4: Bloodied being used more is better, it is really underutilized in 3.5, being only used for Coup de Grace as far as i remember
    5: if you do that, you should also have Conviction (old mettle), Martial (Mettle of Mountains + Evasion), and Intuition (Evasion + Resolve). You also need to change the distribution of saves to more equally be fort, will, and reflex, because fort saves are not common in 3.5
    6: Eh, im not a fan of ToB, but i dont like the idea that Paladin would have martial maneuvers with spellcasting. Ranger could likely just see the abandonment of spellcasting without alot of loss.
    7: are we talking Vancian 3.5 or Vancian Next?
    8: Yay.
    9: Stacked as in only one MM/spell?
    10: the problem with WBL is that classes were balanced to it, so i can see how that can help, the problem is that casting here
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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Numbers corrispond to bullet:
    1: Factional Saves need to be included also
    2: unless you want to really reduce the Succubus's D-cup of hotness's LA, doesnt really seem useful
    3: It already is based off of a secondary stat
    4: Bloodied being used more is better, it is really underutilized in 3.5, being only used for Coup de Grace as far as i remember
    5: if you do that, you should also have Conviction (old mettle), Martial (Mettle of Mountains + Evasion), and Intuition (Evasion + Resolve). You also need to change the distribution of saves to more equally be fort, will, and reflex, because fort saves are not common in 3.5
    6: Eh, im not a fan of ToB, but i dont like the idea that Paladin would have martial maneuvers with spellcasting. Ranger could likely just see the abandonment of spellcasting without alot of loss.
    7: are we talking Vancian 3.5 or Vancian Next?
    8: Yay.
    9: Stacked as in only one MM/spell?
    10: the problem with WBL is that classes were balanced to it, so i can see how that can help, the problem is that casting here
    1 It shall be done
    2 It wont be incredibly useful, more like an indicator for the DM and players to use in RP. Helps for comparing too.
    3 But it's still broken. Leadership will hopefully be addressed
    4 A whole bunch of things will be useful if your opponent if bloodied, and when you are bloodied you will be susceptible to a lot of nasty things that you normally wouldnt be too scared of.
    5 Combinations will be present, but rare. Bonuses to saves are still around too, so combining them might prove too good.
    6 Only a few classes will have both spellcasting and ToB style Maneuvers. Mostly Gishes.
    7 At the moment vancian 3.5, cause I havnt had a good look at Vancian next. If the next version proves better than it will be replaced.
    8 I liked it
    9 Yep. You can still have all your metamagics, but only one applied to any given spell (this happens in a few D&D videogames already)
    10 We plan on redoing classes as we go along too. Hopefully the only class with true item dependency will be the artificer (or its equivalent)

    Also, other things for the list. Also going to edit this to the OP:
    - Progressions will be as so:
    Good, average and poor saves (+12, +9 and +6)
    Good, average and poor BAB (+20, +15 and +10)
    Good, average and poor skills per level (+6, +4 and +2)
    Good, average and poor Spellcasting progression (9th, 6th and 4th)
    Good, average and poor ToB progression ([25, 18 and 11 maneuvers known][6, 4 and 2 stances known][12, 8 and 4 maneuvers ready])
    - Feat every odd level as Pathfinder
    - Races slightly more powerful, on par with Pathfinder
    - Recovering HP via rest is not as fast as 4th edition, but not as slow as 3.5. Probably around the same as Pathfinder.
    - Point buy slightly redone. End result will be more or less the same though
    - Something else I've forgotten. Ill edit it in if I remember.

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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    8 I liked it :smallsmile
    Good, average and poor skills per level (+6, +4 and +2)
    the reason i like this is because it reinforces Magic as something not everyone can pick up, and that isnt simple.

    Bump those up by 2 each and i think you are good. Oh, that Topic: Id like to point out that you still have the insanely overpowered Knowledge (Everything relevant). Work out my suggested build, because that doesnt make the only thing worth investing in one Knowledge check.

    I dont really feel that Spellfu would make for a good class, i cant picture something cool from it.

    I would like to submit my Paladin Non-brew as an idea base for your paladin, PFs paladin is nice, but i feel that they went with a theme that doesnt make paladin feel like a paladin*, especially the capstone making you a good outsider.

    *A Paladin is a Mighty warrior dedicated to fighting forces of great evil, and who protects those who can not protect themselves. the Paladin, when at the head of an army is there because he wants to protect each person in it, each of whom he knows personally.

    Pathfinders Paladin feels more like a Shining Knight, who inspires many things in those around him, and who detests evil, but is not a warrior dedicated to beating evil to a pulp. hes dedicated to beating one guy he calls out to a pulp, while at the head of an army which he views as a tool. about the only thing i feel they did right is Lay on Hands and charisma casting.
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-08-26 at 12:10 AM.
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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    As the title implies, a friend and I are slowly working our way through a rewriting of 3rd ed that incorporates a lot of things from Pathfinder, 4th ed, D&D next, etc. We're calling it 3.U for ultimate cause I cant think of a better label.
    As someone who is also working on a system rework, I figure it would be a good idea for me to give feedback and maybe some ideas, so here goes:

    1: Initiative now includes your WIS modifier
    While the idea is definitely good for making WIS more important to everyone, you should be wary of rolls that get bonuses from two different ability scores. My own plan is to make initiative be based only on WIS (not DEX), so you might want to consider that.

    You might want to also include a modifier depending on class and level; in my rework, rogues, monks, and full-BAB classes (plus rangers, who in my rework are no longer full-BAB) get 1 per level, other classes get 1 every 2 levels. (Gnomes, being overly hyperactive/trigger-happy, get 1 per level for any class, though they also get a WIS penalty that weakens it some.)

    2: Your AC now includes half your BAB (which is now a decimal rounded down for use in multiclassing and such)
    Something along these lines is definitely desirable. A defensively oriented fighter should be very difficult to hit with touch attacks.

    3: Appearance is a secondary stat that sits just behind the Six pirmaries (Str, con, dex, int, is, cha). It is the average of your physical stats plus your Cha modifier. We don't have any idea what we are going to use it for yet
    I'd be wary of adding that sort of thing; if you come up with a case that demands it, use it, but otherwise it's not worth the bother (and the vague resemblance to FATAL).

    4: We have plans to make leadership in a similar way (as a secondary stat).
    Again, if you have a use for it, use it, otherwise don't bother.

    5: Alignment is now a cube, not a square. The third axis denotes your dedication
    You mean dedication to your alignment? Then what would be "highly dedicated neutral", and how would you deal with someone who is LG, highly dedicated to Law but only mildly dedicated to Good? Or is it dedication to something else, and if so what?

    6: Advantage and disadvantage is incorporated. Not as frequently as D&D Next, but still around (Charging gives adv. on attack roll, being feared gives disadv; etc)
    I'm not sure what that even means.

    7: Bloodied is brought in from 4th ed
    Fitting "bloodied" abilities in with the multiclass-friendly system of 3e could get tricky, but it could work if done right.

    8: Skills have been reworked like so
    Having so few skills could be a problem, as it means a rogue gets no benefit from a really high INT score. I'd advise spreading them out a bit more, even if you don't go all the way to Pathfinder's spread.

    9: Mettle is now broken down into Fort and Will seperately (with the Will save version being called Resolve). Most classes will have one of Evasion, Mettle or Resolve.
    Seems good. (My own system will have very few saves for partial effects, so such considerations aren't as relevant there.)

    10: ToB is being incorporated into most martial classes. Rogues and gishes get a dabble too.
    I personally find ToB too spell-like, but that's more a question of taste and style. It's clear that martial classes need some help, though.

    11: Default spellcasting system is Vancian style for simplicity, but spell points and a truenaming styled system are alternatives being worked on.
    You also might want different approaches for different classes. (My own system has sorcerers having a straight spellpoint system, clerics have a dual spellpoint system, wizards are spellpoint-based (with far slower regeneration than sorcerers) but have caster level dependent on the Spellcraft skill, and druids have at-will abilities.)

    If you do end up with spellpoints, consider having them regenerate continuously over time rather than a single boost each day; that'll reduce the "1 hour workday" problem.

    12: Higher level casting is more restricted so the better spells of each school are only accessible to those who specialise in that school (in summary: Any spells up to 3rd level, some spells from 4th to 6th require spell focus in that school and some from 7th to 9th require greater spell focus in that school)
    Seems a valid approach to balance things if you're not planning to completely rework the magic system.

    13: Metamagic cannot be stacked. Sorry twin empowered intensified fireball.
    I don't really think this is necessary, as long as you get rid of all the ways to boost metamagic without increasing spell level.

    14: WBL has been scrapped.
    So when a party starts above level 1, what resources do they get?

    CR still exists, but is going to be looked at.
    If you do scrap CR, how will the DM know what's a good challenge for that level? Unless you plan to make him figure it out from scratch every time...

    15: Progressions will be as so:
    Good, average and poor saves (+12, +9 and +6)
    Good, average and poor BAB (+20, +15 and +10)
    Good, average and poor skills per level (+6, +4 and +2)
    Good, average and poor Spellcasting progression (9th, 6th and 4th)
    Good, average and poor ToB progression ([25, 18 and 11 maneuvers known][6, 4 and 2 stances known][12, 8 and 4 maneuvers ready])
    Seems ok.

    16: Feat every odd level as Pathfinder
    Since the fighter's getting other boosts, seems good.

    17: Races slightly more powerful, on par with Pathfinder
    Again, Pathfinder does these things pretty well.

    18: Recovering HP via rest is not as fast as 4th edition, but not as slow as 3.5. Probably around the same as Pathfinder.
    I think Pathfinder is the same as 3.5 in terms of that.

    19: Point buy slightly redone. End result will be more or less the same though
    I can't provide feedback without more details.

    I'll probably be putting up a thread similar to this one for my own remake tomorrow (it'll have far bigger changes, though), if you see something in there that you want to borrow for yours, feel free.

    Just one thing from my own remake that I think might be a good idea for yours as well: Diplomacy (or Banter with your rework) can also be used to worsen a target's attitude toward you (e.g. you're trying to provoke a fight); it can even go one step beyond hostile to Enraged, which gives him -2 AC, +2 damage against you, and each round he must make a Will save* (DC equal to 5+half your check result**) or be forced to attack you.

    *My own system splits Will into Will and Insight, and this is Insight, but if you're using the 3e saves it would be Will.
    **Again, my own system has higher saves, so it's equal to your check result; with a high save of +12, though, you'll want something lower.
    Last edited by Yitzi; 2012-08-26 at 02:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    1: Initiative now includes your WIS modifier
    Makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    2: Your AC now includes half your BAB (which is now a decimal rounded down for use in multiclassing and such)
    I'd make ACP reduce this value.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    3: Appearance is a secondary stat that sits just behind the Six pirmaries (Str, con, dex, int, is, cha). It is the average of your physical stats plus your Cha modifier. We don't have any idea what we are going to use it for yet
    Hard to evaluate when the details are missing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    4: We have plans to make leadership in a similar way (as a secondary stat).
    Ditto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    5: Alignment is now a cube, not a square. The third axis denotes your dedication
    I thought of this one myself, but haven't fully figured it out yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    6: Advantage and disadvantage is incorporated. Not as frequently as D&D Next, but still around (Charging gives adv. on attack roll, being feared gives disadv; etc)
    Being feared gives disadvantage is odd to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    7: Bloodied is brought in from 4th ed
    Being a bookkeeping factor, I'd put it to a vote with all the players having to say yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    8: Skills have been reworked like so
    Being a strong supporter of realism as far not unnatural abilities go, I'm against this one. But that's just me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    9: Mettle is now broken down into Fort and Will seperately (with the Will save version being called Resolve). Most classes will have one of Evasion, Mettle or Resolve.
    Mettle or Resolve are officially together because they're not as frequent as Evasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    10: ToB is being incorporated into most martial classes. Rogues and gishes get a dabble too.
    Not much to say here, since I'm all for improving the core mechanics over additional mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    11: Default spellcasting system is Vancian style for simplicity, but spell points and a truenaming styled system are alternatives being worked on.
    The Vancian system has proven itself beyond a reasonable doubt to make balance impossible.
    Use Surgo and Lord Blackfang's system, or my tweak to it (whichever suits you). You'll gain a lot and lose absolutely nothing in the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    12: Higher level casting is more restricted so the better spells of each school are only accessible to those who specialise in that school (in summary: Any spells up to 3rd level, some spells from 4th to 6th require spell focus in that school and some from 7th to 9th require greater spell focus in that school)
    This is a good idea I must admit I never thought of myself.
    What will be the thumb rule for choosing the appropriate spells?
    Wouldn't it be simpler and more balanced to apply to all spells of the given category?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    13: Metamagic cannot be stacked. Sorry twin empowered intensified fireball.
    I'm all for that one. Always were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    14: WBL has been scrapped. CR still exists, but is going to be looked at.
    Ditto.
    Share your thoughts regarding CR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    15: Progressions will be as so:
    Good, average and poor saves (+12, +9 and +6)
    Good, average and poor BAB (+20, +15 and +10)
    Good, average and poor skills per level (+6, +4 and +2)
    Good, average and poor Spellcasting progression (9th, 6th and 4th)
    Good, average and poor ToB progression ([25, 18 and 11 maneuvers known][6, 4 and 2 stances known][12, 8 and 4 maneuvers ready])
    Ok I guess. Nothing significant here.
    Make sure these changes carry an added value other than just "'cause I feel like it", otherwise you'd be bothering for nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    16: Feat every odd level as Pathfinder
    This will not work in your favor if balance is one of the factors you're after.
    Spellcasters get more mileage out of general feats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    17: Races slightly more powerful, on par with Pathfinder
    Good call.
    I always felt races are not significant enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    18: Recovering HP via rest is not as fast as 4th edition, but not as slow as 3.5. Probably around the same as Pathfinder.
    Check out my codex update addendum for that one (click my sig to get there).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    19: Point buy slightly redone. End result will be more or less the same though
    So why bother?

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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Ditto.

    The Vancian system has proven itself beyond a reasonable doubt to make balance impossible.
    Use Surgo and Lord Blackfang's system, or my tweak to it (whichever suits you). You'll gain a lot and lose absolutely nothing in the process.

    So why bother?
    Not really, Leadership is already a secondary attribute, knowing that Epic Leadership isnt rediculously overpowered is a good thing to look forward to

    DnD Next would like to have a word with you.

    Because point buy is stupidly complex, making it less useful for RL gameplay
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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Point buy is actually very simple; I doubt it needs to be addressed.

    The presence of Appearance is enough to make me skeptical. It's a trash stat that no one has ever figured out how to use properly. D&D doesn't need more stats - if anything, it needs less. There's no good reason to incorporate it as a separate statistic other than to codify "pretty" vs. "ugly" races. I'll reserve final judgment until I see what you intend to use it for, but you're going to have to do a hell of a job to convince me that it's a good idea.

    Along those same lines, Leadership doesn't need to be added as an attribute; hell, Leadership scores already exist.

    Skill simplifications seem too drastic. I support Perception, Athletics, Acrobatics, and Stealth, but rolling UMD into Spellcraft? Straight-up making casters better is usually a bad idea, and the others are too reductionist.

    WBL doesn't strike me as requiring a revamp; it and CR are tools, simple as that. The problem is not with CR as a system, but with the designers' inability to properly gauge them.

    Will/Fort partial effects are rare enough that it's not really that much of advantage to spread Resolve/Mettle around, but I have no issue with it.

    Spellcasting - eliminating metamagic stacking is like solving a termite problem by burning down the house. It's not metamagic itself that's the problem - it's metamagic reducers. A Twinned Empowered Intensified fireball is a 10th-level spell, if I'm not mistaken, and a blatant straw man if ever there was one. What's worse - 30d6(*1.5) fire damage, or Gate?

    Essentially, I have to ask the fundamental question of why? What problems with the game are you attempting to address with these fixes? As it stands, I do not see what this set of rules accomplishes. The only parts I can see the merit of are adding ToB mechanics to martial classes and maybe the restriction of higher level spells to those casters with the proper feats, though it seems like a draconian feat tax that won't actually solve the magical abuse problems. A Conjurer or Transmuter, for example, are both likely to take the spell focus feats for the DC increase alone, and subsequently gain access to the one of the two most versatile schools, either one of which would be more than enough. If I can cast Shapechange and Time Stop, am I going to really miss Meteor Swarm or Dominate Monster? It forces casters to choose a focus (which I agree with and support), but doesn't address the fact that some focuses are vastly superior to others.

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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Because point buy is stupidly complex, making it less useful for RL gameplay
    Actually, it's pretty simple (especially without extreme optimization), and allows for easy fixes regarding ability increase by level and things that aren't quite abilities but should compete with them.

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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Alrighty then...

    @Yitzi: "Having so few skills could be a problem, as it means a rogue gets no benefit from a really high INT score. I'd advise spreading them out a bit more, even if you don't go all the way to Pathfinder's spread."
    I'm redoing the rogue to be similar to the homebrew version i've already done. It has heavy reliance on INT, but I will be redoing those skills as Toapat and others have suggested.

    "If you do end up with spellpoints, consider having them regenerate continuously over time rather than a single boost each day; that'll reduce the "1 hour workday" problem."
    Good idea, I'll make sure to put that in

    "I don't really think this is necessary, as long as you get rid of all the ways to boost metamagic without increasing spell level."
    Good point, I may not go that far in the end.

    "So when a party starts above level 1, what resources do they get?"
    A basic starting package (pack, food, clothes, rope, flint & steel) and a few GP for personal equipment (weapon, armor, spell components, etc). If your DM wants to give you additional equipment, especially magic stuff, it's up to him.

    "If you do scrap CR, how will the DM know what's a good challenge for that level? Unless you plan to make him figure it out from scratch every time..."
    WBL is being removed to get rid of the assumption that characters should have this by a certain level, and the CR that is based partially off of that. CR will still be there, but it will be adjusted to assume the characters base abilities, not the characters with appropriate gear, skill and tactics.

    "Just one thing from my own remake that I think might be a good idea for yours as well: Diplomacy (or Banter with your rework) can also be used to worsen a target's attitude toward you (e.g. you're trying to provoke a fight); it can even go one step beyond hostile to Enraged, which gives him -2 AC, +2 damage against you, and each round he must make a Will save* (DC equal to 5+half your check result**) or be forced to attack you."
    Like a taunt? I like it.

    @ Nonsi:
    "I'd make ACP reduce this value."
    Good call. Ill put that in.

    "What will be the thumb rule for choosing the appropriate spells?
    Wouldn't it be simpler and more balanced to apply to all spells of the given category?"
    Rule of thumb so far is the best 2 or 3 spells of that school, preferably those that are on all or most spell lists but if not favoring the wizard over the cleric list.
    We would restrict all, but that would end up reducing spells a bit too much, and generalists would become an endangered species.

    "Make sure these changes carry an added value other than just "'cause I feel like it", otherwise you'd be bothering for nothing."
    Cause its there But really the lack of a middle save progression always bothered me, so i put it in so now all classes have a good, average and poor save. The rest is mostly for balancing purposes.

    @Leadership
    Im not actually in charge of this front, but the aim is more a fix so its valid but not ridiculous (No sane DM allowing it ridiculous)

    @Point Buy
    3.5 Had a decent way of doing it, as did Pathfinder. Both had their approaches, but paying more the higher your attribute goes always irked me, so im changing the values. You will still end up with the same stats in a build but it is much simpler to do so. No online calculator required if your lazy like me.

    Also, to note: The D&D Next base ruleset that i've seen so far is pretty impressive. Its flexible and simple. We might end up using that as a base instead.

    Hope this clears a few things up
    Last edited by Kane0; 2012-08-26 at 08:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    "So when a party starts above level 1, what resources do they get?"
    A basic starting package (pack, food, clothes, rope, flint & steel) and a few GP for personal equipment (weapon, armor, spell components, etc). If your DM wants to give you additional equipment, especially magic stuff, it's up to him.
    So a party that was played through from level 1 to 8 will have better equipment at level 8 than one that started the campaign at level 8? You sure that's a good idea?

    "If you do scrap CR, how will the DM know what's a good challenge for that level? Unless you plan to make him figure it out from scratch every time..."
    WBL is being removed to get rid of the assumption that characters should have this by a certain level, and the CR that is based partially off of that. CR will still be there, but it will be adjusted to assume the characters base abilities, not the characters with appropriate gear, skill and tactics.
    Ah, you're adjusting CR, not completely removing the concept. Well, any major rework will require CR adjustment.

    Like a taunt?
    Exactly.

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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    So a party that was played through from level 1 to 8 will have better equipment at level 8 than one that started the campaign at level 8? You sure that's a good idea?
    The DM can give that level 8 party the equipment he deems necessary for that campaign, just as he does for the level 1 party. If his campaign needs more or less magical gear than is currently average then it wont be a problem to do so.

    The idea of getting rid of WBL was to prevent a certain amount of item rocket tag and the requirement of gear to overcome challenges (I'm looking at you DDO). Magic items still exist but the frequency and value of them are now completely up to the DM. This enables both high end low magic campaigns with a roughly equal amount of effort in this aspect.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2012-08-26 at 10:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    (I'm looking at you DDO).
    DDO has raised WLB Rocket Tag to an Artform, you should never, EVER try to duplicate it.

    DDO's Edition is 3.O, because it takes aspects of 3.5, 4th, and homebrew together to make the game, Enhancements work, but the gear is kinda stupid.

    also, Paladin donation?
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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    DDO has raised WLB Rocket Tag to an Artform, you should never, EVER try to replicate it.

    also, Paladin donation?
    Couldnt have said it better myself.

    Your pally has some good things going for it. Ours is going to allow alignments other than lawful good so some alignment versatility will need to be inplemented but id be happy to take on what you have, if you dont mind of course.
    Last edited by Kane0; 2012-08-27 at 02:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Couldnt have said it better myself.

    Your pally has some good things going for it. Ours is going to allow alignments other than lawful good so some alignment versatility will need to be inplemented but id be happy to take on what you have, if you dont mind of course.
    I specifically changed when i was doing paladin to be AG, not LG, and added some of the more Chaotic spells to the spell list.

    actually, there are a few things id like to change with it, ill PM you a revision with the Templar's Lay on Hands + Mercies, and the bonus feats replaced by more paladiny things
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-08-27 at 09:34 AM.
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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Im not actually in charge of this front, but the aim is more a fix so its valid but not ridiculous (No sane DM allowing it ridiculous)
    The real problem isn't the followers, but the cohort. And even that problem can be largely reduced by keeping the cohort as an NPC (i.e. controlled by the DM, not the player whose character he's a cohort of, even if he usually listens to that character.)

    but paying more the higher your attribute goes always irked me
    Before you meddle with that feature, you should understand why it's that way; it's designed that way because adding to a high ability score is generally more useful than adding to a low ability score, since you're going to try to use the features and classes that make use of your high scores. Effectively, "paying more the higher your attribute goes" is an anti-SAD feature, and as we see, it still isn't enough, so if you get rid of it you're going to either have to make all classes extremely heavily MAD, or else accept that people will have a mix of the highest and lowest possible with nothing in between (which I think will make the game a lot less interesting.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    The DM can give that level 8 party the equipment he deems necessary for that campaign, just as he does for the level 1 party. If his campaign needs more or less magical gear than is currently average then it wont be a problem to do so.
    You might still want to give the DM a guideline as to what would happen if they had played up from level 1 with random treasure rolls, though. (And when you get down to it, that guideline is all that WBL really is; the only change would be making it clear that it's a guide for the DM and not a hard rule.)

    The idea of getting rid of WBL was to prevent a certain amount of item rocket tag and the requirement of gear to overcome challenges (I'm looking at you DDO). Magic items still exist but the frequency and value of them are now completely up to the DM. This enables both high end low magic campaigns with a roughly equal amount of effort in this aspect.
    On the flip side, it makes it a lot harder for the DM to balance correctly; make sure to keep that in mind when deciding whether to do it.

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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    1: Initiative now includes your WIS modifier
    This is a good start, but I would also include your BAB; that way, your Initiative is basically made up of three things: your general combat prowess (BAB), your awareness of the suroundings (Wis), and how quickly you can react (Dex).

    2: Your AC now includes half your BAB (which is now a decimal rounded down for use in multiclassing and such)
    Base AC should scale better, I agree, but this is one area where I like to keep BAB seperate. BAB seems like an offensive stat, while AC is clearly defensive. I doubt I'll convince you to change it, but I prefer to reduce base BAB to 5, then add +1 for every 2 hit dice. This keep high-level armorless monsters a pretty fair challenge, but the armor for PC's could still use a buff. There's a link in my extended sig for my proposal, if you want to look there for inspiration.

    3: Appearance is a secondary stat that sits just behind the Six pirmaries (Str, con, dex, int, is, cha). It is the average of your physical stats plus your Cha modifier. We don't have any idea what we are going to use it for yet
    I have yet to see an "appearence" stat that I like. It's either OP, and ends up replacing Charisma, or more usually it's underpowered and ignored. I like to think of Charisma as including both your physical appearence, and less tangible qualities which combine to give you a aura that people find repulsive or attractive. For example, a battle-scarred warrior or an aging queen might not find conventional standards of young-and-flawless beauty, but their revolve and leadership potential still make them attractive in their own way.
    If you are dead-set on including appearence, I would make it a random set of rolls, and limit it's effect's to charisma based-skills, but only against characters of the same species.
    Also, try to consider how shapeshifting magic will affect your appearence stat.

    4: We have plans to make leadership in a similar way (as a secondary stat).
    I'm interested in seeing how you work this out; for D&D I think the small-party structure doesn't need as much detail for leadership-bonuses as a army-scale game like Warhammer would.

    5: Alignment is now a cube, not a square. The third axis denotes your dedication
    Are we sure this is not getting too complicated? I prefer just adding a 10th alignment as "Unaligned", which is mostly the apathetic version of True Nuetral (which I see as activily pursuing balance).

    6: Advantage and disadvantage is incorporated. Not as frequently as D&D Next, but still around (Charging gives adv. on attack roll, being feared gives disadv; etc)
    7: Bloodied is brought in from 4th ed
    I haven't played enough 4th ed. or D&D Next to coment, really.

    8: Skills have been reworked like so
    Some of the less-commonly used skill can certainly be incorporated into other areas so players actually have ranks in them, but I'm of the opinion that over-simplification in this area is detrimental to the feeling of a unique character. You are, of course, entitled to disagree.

    9: Mettle is now broken down into Fort and Will seperately (with the Will save version being called Resolve). Most classes will have one of Evasion, Mettle or Resolve.
    Hmmm, this is interesting. I addressed the magic issue by giving every player a base spell-resistance. I think that magic classes are still too adaptable for this to be a serious obstacle, though I like the balancing aspect of it. I might consider making evasion/resolve/mettle a line of feats that replace Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Greater Fortitude instead, to allow for character customization.

    Edit: Alternatively, make the feat chain Lighting Reflexes --> Evasion --> Imp. Evasion

    10: ToB is being incorporated into most martial classes. Rogues and gishes get a dabble too.
    I like ToB as much as the next melee enthusiest, but I would prefer to fix the core classes other ways, and allow players to dip ToB as they choose. If this is simpler for you, though, go for it.

    11: Default spellcasting system is Vancian style for simplicity, but spell points and a truenaming styled system are alternatives being worked on.
    Not enough detail to comment, really. Magic is interwoven into so many aspects of D&D that it really needs a total rebuild to be balanced, IMO.

    12: Higher level casting is more restricted so the better spells of each school are only accessible to those who specialise in that school (in summary: Any spells up to 3rd level, some spells from 4th to 6th require spell focus in that school and some from 7th to 9th require greater spell focus in that school)
    I don't have any problems with this.

    13: Metamagic cannot be stacked. Sorry twin empowered intensified fireball.
    I think free (or effectively free) metamagic is more of an issue than stacking, but the two are definitely linked. I would prefer a more rigorous overhaul that took partial-casters into account as well, since they frequently lack the spell-slots to use much MM.

    14: WBL has been scrapped. CR still exists, but is going to be looked at.
    I've always believed in WBL as a guideline instead of a written-in-stone rule, but are you replacing this with something else or leaving it entirely up the DM?

    15: Progressions will be as so:
    Good, average and poor saves (+12, +9 and +6)
    Good, average and poor BAB (+20, +15 and +10)
    Good, average and poor skills per level (+6, +4 and +2)
    Good, average and poor Spellcasting progression (9th, 6th and 4th)
    Good, average and poor ToB progression ([25, 18 and 11 maneuvers known][6, 4 and 2 stances known][12, 8 and 4 maneuvers ready])
    The only party I want to comment on is saves: I've never understood where the middle save progression comes from. At high levels, the 3-point difference is pretty well eclipsed by stats and other features. IMO, the good-bad levels keep the different save-progressions feeling different.

    16: Feat every odd level as Pathfinder
    I have no objections to giving more feats

    17: Races slightly more powerful, on par with Pathfinder
    I think it's more important that the races feel different than they feel powerful. Power can come from classes, but racial choice shoud have some features that advance with level, so if you play an orc you feel like an orc even at 20, not just a green-skinned human.

    18: Recovering HP via rest is not as fast as 4th edition, but not as slow as 3.5. Probably around the same as Pathfinder.
    I don't have a problem with resting restoring HP slowly, but I think other methods of healing should be available, such as actually restoring HP with the Heal skill, and potions granting fast-healing instead of just being a Cure X spell-in-a-bottle.

    19: Point buy slightly redone. End result will be more or less the same though
    I've become a real fan of using arrays instead of PB lately. With a robust racial modifier system you can get most builds the way you want them anyway, and you reduce the gap between the MAD/SAD classes somewhat.


    I realize not all my comments (or any, really) require a specific reply, since some are just the DBD stamp of non-commitance. Let me know what you think about the substantive ones.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-08-27 at 11:15 AM.
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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Sent the PM, im considering reposting it here without all the spoilers and comments though
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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    By the way, any idea why your rework feedback thread got 19 replies, and mine got 0?

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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    I got no idea sorry, maybe because your ideas are better thought through? Less to criticize.

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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    3: Appearance is a secondary stat that sits just behind the Six pirmaries (Str, con, dex, int, is, cha). It is the average of your physical stats plus your Cha modifier. We don't have any idea what we are going to use it for yet

    Feel free to comment on anything you like, PEACH is encouraged!
    Okay... Lets see... perhaps a modifier that applies to Bluff and Diplomacy checks when attempting to Coerce someone into giving you a better deal or attempting to seduce someone, but also causing a equal penalty to Intimidate checks because you are still too damn cute for them to get mad or to take you seriously.

    Also, it should clearly be something to worry about when wandering through areas with many of the evil monstrous races. A high appearance score in an orc encampment might mean a higher chance of getting raped or at least some form of harassment.

    It might also apply to Gather Information checks, IE turning on the charm.

    Also, slavery, it might apply somehow to appraise checks when they are trying to place a value of the appearance of the slave.
    Last edited by LordErebus12; 2012-08-27 at 07:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    All good points, and situational like we want it to be. Were considering making the appearance thing a sidebar in the book that provides a rule of thumb instead of mechanics

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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    I have a few questions:

    Is the Spiked Chain going to remain a One-half Reach+near Tripping Finess weapon?

    Will Adamantine Remain useless against Adamantine DR? (Adamantine DR requires the ability to bypass a hardness of 35, Adamantine Weapons only bypass a hardness of 20)

    Will you Un-nerf TWF in terms of feat requirements?

    2 things about the paladin brew I sent you:

    Measure turns smite into a full power attack ability

    I would suggest building out a pair of mandatory ACFs to handle Divine spirt and the mount
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-08-28 at 11:06 AM.
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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    I'm not sure about the spike chain sorry, ill have to ask my mate bout that

    DR will work against all forms of damage except the type(s) specified to overcome it, and DR/- works against everything. Resistances against all damage types (not materials) also are in place and can be anything from 1/slashing to 50/fire.
    So an adamantine sword will break through any amount of DR/adamantine, but will be held up by resistance to slashing.

    TWF will have its feat tax lifted significantly

    Full attack smites sounds nice, id like to keep it.

    ACFs for the mount and spirits sounds like a good idea.

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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    OK, got the details on spiked chains and other weapons:

    When you are unskilled (no proficiency): 1d4 damage
    When you are skilled (proficiency): Reach 15ft, 1d6 damage, can trip grapple and disarm provoking attacks of OP
    When you attain mastery (weapon focus kind of thing): Reach 15ft, 1d8 damage, can trip, grapple and disarm without provoking an attack of OP.

    Other weapons function in the same way:
    Unskilled: Lower damage dice, no special qualities
    Skilled: Base damage dice, gains special qualities
    Mastery: Higher damage dice, special qualities do not provoke attacks of OP.

    Weapons are split into groups such as blades, blunts, throwing, polearms, etc

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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    OK, got the details on spiked chains and other weapons:

    When you are unskilled (no proficiency): 1d4 damage
    When you are skilled (proficiency): Reach 15ft, 1d6 damage, can trip grapple and disarm provoking attacks of OP
    When you attain mastery (weapon focus kind of thing): Reach 15ft, 1d8 damage, can trip, grapple and disarm without provoking an attack of OP.

    Other weapons function in the same way:
    Unskilled: Lower damage dice, no special qualities
    Skilled: Base damage dice, gains special qualities
    Mastery: Higher damage dice, special qualities do not provoke attacks of OP.

    Weapons are split into groups such as blades, blunts, throwing, polearms, etc
    This seems a bit worse then the current version of weapons.
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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    I believe the idea was to emulate 4th edition somewhat where anybody can use a weapon (no non-proficiency penalty, only improvised weapon penalty which will be at disadvantage instead of a straight -x to attack) but to use it properly you need to be trained in it, and focusing on that kind of weapon 'unlocks' additional benefits of both the weapon and wielder

    I havnt seen the table of weapons themselves yet, so im in the same boat as you guys atm lol

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    Default Re: Reworked 3rd Ed.

    well, that isnt too good for us reviewers atm

    asto Divine Spirit co-Manditory ACF:

    I honestly dont know how to rebuild it to not be OP

    Mount ACF:

    What would the mount be?

    I feel that although Paladins having Mounts is nice, that a Paladin isnt suposed to be always on the horse like the cavalier, so handling this half would be a bit difficult.

    That, and having a dedicated class for the Mount/Pet mechanics lets you make a class which feels more united, in fact, some of the leftover chaff from PF paladin could be mixed in to make a Knight-Commander class.
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