I've lost that Fantasy feeling

[JellyPooga]

Whilst thinking about roleplaying, in the process of re-writing some rules/creating a new re-hash of a certain popular fantasy RPG, it occured to me that there is, at least for me, a decided lack of the fantastic when I play and run games.

Elves are ten-a-penny and meeting one is about as mysterious and rare as meeting a Bristolian in Cardiff. Dwarves have lost that sense of being an almost reclusive race of master craftsmen, because every village has a dwarven smith and dwarf-run bars can be found in every market-town. Heck, even Orcs are just slightly unruly neighbours instead of the bestial marauders they should be.

Q: What's gone wrong?
A: All those 'fantasy' elements have become far too 'normal'.

Q: Why have they become 'normal'?
(My) A: Those fantasy elements were given to the players to do with as they please.

Allow me to explain. In literature, the author has licence to make X race or Y culture whatever he pleases. If he wants Elves to be just another aspect of a multi-cultural region and common as the next guy, then he just writes it that way. If he wants them to be a rare and dying breed that only has tenuous relations with human nations, then so be it.

In an RPG that allows Elves as player characters (to continue the example), the "author" is several people; the GM and the Players. The GM has a greater say in the plot of the tale, but the Players have (largely speaking) absolute fiat regarding the protagonists of that saga. If one of those protagonists is of a race that has been written into the plot as untrusted by humans, supposedly rare, etc. then all of those aspects are marginalised (at best) or ignored (more common) because a member of that race is present in practically every scene and nothing the GM says, at the end of the day, will stop the player playing that Elf however he likes (e.g. the GM says Elves are aloof and arrogant, the Player says that his Elf is gregarious and friendly). The 'fantasy' Elf has become 'normal' and there's only so many times you can emphasise (as a GM) that characters unusual heritage before it starts either a)becoming dull and repetitious or b)looking like penalising the player for choosing to play a character of that race.

Q: What, then, is the answer?
(My) A: Ban non-human characters.

Take away the ability for Players to compromise the fantasy elements of the game and you preserve said fantasy element by making that fantasy integral to the plot, rather than an aspect of the protagonists. I'm saying this from the point of view of both a GM and a Player.

To look at it another way; Players have the option of playing several different races, but really all that option gives them is a slightly different set of abilities. The actual character they play is not dependant on their race, but upon the players themselves.

Am I being too harsh in my estimation and solution?
Is my solution a potential 'fix' for the problem I'm perceiving?
Am I just playing the wrong game? If so, have you any other suggestions?

[Rallicus]

That is honestly the worst solution I've ever read.

You don't "preserve" a fantasy feel by limiting the players' options when it comes to characters.

If you've grown tired of elves not being fantastical, make another race like them instead. Use races that the PCs aren't playing so you have more control of their culture, attitudes, so on and so forth.

[Morty]

I think that, yes, your best option might be to play a fantasy game where fantastic elements aren't quite as commonplace. There's plenty of them around.

If you want to stick to D&D and other tolkienesque fantasy, I would allow players to pick non-human races for their characters - provided they can prove they can play them as more than just their stat modifiers.

[Craft (Cheese)]

The problem here has nothing to do with the players and everything with the conception of what a fantasy race is. "Elves are aloof and arrogant and are universally good at using bows, Dwarves are drunk and scottish and hide underground all day" is an absolutely ludicrous conception how how cultures different from our own work, let alone what are supposed to be different species.

These aren't races, these are cardboard stereotypes and your problem really boils down to "Unless people who play these races have their character follow the stereotype to the letter, they're doing it wrong!"

[TheThan]

While the OP’s solution A works and one I actually like, I think its a good idea to explore other options. So here’s an option “B”.

Thethan’s option B:
Play up these fantasy troupes. Make dwarves an almost reclusive race of master craftsmen (actually make their work BETTER than the work of elves). If someone wants to play a dwarf, fine let him.

But don’t put more dwarves in your human/elf whathaveyou settlements. So that that dwarf character is unique in the area. Maybe people (read NPCs) that have never seen one rush out and meet him as he comes into town. Have characters ask silly questions like ‘where do baby dwarves come from?” and the like. Make the character into a spectacle. Try to make scenes like this one happen.

Then flip it around, when the party travels to the dwarven stronghold high up in the mountains, make them the outsiders and strangers, the spectacle.

I think that will greatly help in bringing back that fantasy feeling.

[Yora]

The reason that I found that made me lose interest in Forgotten Realms and that makes Eberron interesting, but not fun for me, is that many RPG settings just explain way too many things.

The crucial part of fantasy worlds to me is, that you have to face things you don't understand and have to find ways to deal with them without ever really knowing what's going on at a larger scale.
When you can name, quantify, and calculate everything, the fantastic element is lost. At that point you are the master of the world and you have the means to bend everything to your world. There is no mystery when you know all your options and can make nummerical estimations for which one is the most likely to succeed.

The solution is settings in which the inhabitants simply do not know everything and neither do the players (which also means the GM).
You don't need to know who build a dungeon and what purpose it originally had, and you don't need to be able to break down a magical ritual into the individual spells it is composed of, and you don't need to know life cycle of the weird abomination that haunts the place.
To a fantasy hero, weird otherworldy things happen that are beyond human understanding, but the hero overcomes fear and finds a way to get out of it alive anyway.

[Devils_Advocate]

Why is your post written as though demihumans are the only "fantasy elements" that exist? That's a rather odd thing to single out. Isn't magic the thing that's quintessentially fantastic, and the primary thing to keep out of the hands of players in order to keep it mysterious, should that be your desire?

Also, you kind of seem to be suggesting including fantasy by, um, not including it. That is to say, if Mysterious Fantastic Things aren't encountered by the protagonists because they're all in Mysterious Far-Away Lands (of Mystery!), then said Things aren't part of the story, are they?

I guess you're saying that things are only fantastic if they're just barely part of the story, and anything much more than that renders them boringly familiar?

But why would you want to reclaim this status for things specifically because they have traditionally held that status? Aren't e.g. hidden elven villages themselves familiar to audiences precisely as a result of being, well, cliche? Seems to me that if you want something to be excitingly mysterious, the way to do it is to come up with something new that hasn't been seen before.

[JellyPooga]

Thanks for all the replies; I have a few comments.

@Rallicus: Creating a new 'fantasy' race can work, I'll agree, but only for so long. Once a "new" race becomes understood and 'normal', then you need to make another "new" race. Eventually you'll just end up with too many races and a world that looks overcrowded and unworkable (where are all these "new" races coming from?). Surely a better solution is to try and recreate the fantastic elements of the races you're already working with?

@Morty: How do you get someone to 'prove' they're good enough? I don't disagree that you have something there, but without appearing to have 'favourites' or insult anyone, it's tricky to implement such a system of proof. Better to blanket ban than pick and choose, surely?

@Craft(cheese): Hmm, yes. Culture and Stereotype and the way they relate to actual people or characters is a more complex thing than can easily be explained and expecting every character to fit within the stereotypes the game-world establishes is not what I'm trying to achieve. However, when talking about non-human races, you can take things to more of an extreme than you could when talking about other human cultures. So saying that "all elves are expert archers" is a ludicrous stereotype (to quote your good self), true, but it's also one that could be established if the entirety of the Elven people live in one community in a small forest in an otherwise much larger world.

It's also less about "doing it wrong" if you don't follow the stereotype that I have a problem with; I myself am guilty of playing characters that specifically go against stereotypes; intellectual half-orcs, dwarves with weak constitution and the like. It's more about what that does with relation to making those characters fantastic as regards to their race. A Dwarf that walks into a village who is pale, weak and feeble should be something totally outside of the norm, not only because Dwarves are rare and unusual in human lands but also because the stereotype says he should be rough and tough. In my experience, this rarely happens; that the character is weak and feeble is the thing of note, not that it's a Dwarf who's weak and feeble.

@TheThan: Your solution B is what I tend to do anyway and I'm finding it doesn't work well enough. As a GM, constantly reminding players of their oddity or 'differentness' does not quite have the same impact as coming across a fantastic element only once in an entire campaign. An Elf (player character) who is constantly being questioned and gawked at is merely a player being put upon for being an Elf. An Elf (NPC) who is the only Elf the Player Characters have ever met and is the only one they're ever likely to meet is a different, exciting, memorable and (above all) fantastic character.

@Yora: I think you have a very valid point. I also think that my reaction is an extension of this point. By allowing a fantasy race as a Player Character, you enforce familiarity with that fantasy race and lose the fantasy element, turning it to nothing more than a different kind of normal.

@Devils Advocate: You are correct that I am specifically targeting Fantasy Races in my OP. This is not to say there are not other fantasy elements that will also contribute; as you say, Magic is a big one, but those other elements I have an easier time reconciling within the games I play/run than races.

I am not suggesting that fantasy races should be entirely removed from the game, only that they should be removed as an option for the Player Characters. In trying to establish a setting and a plot, a GM must (as mentioned by Yora) preserve a certain amount of mystery. Without it, you may as well be playing something contemporary or historical. If we identify a fantasy setting by the races that inhabit that world, then the ones that are different from our own, human, perception must fall into this "mystery" category. The more about the mystery that is revealed to the Player Characters, the less of the fantasy will be present. In order to play a character of a fantasy race, one must know a great deal about that race, so by learning that information, the mystery is revealed and the fantasy element removed.

By preserving fantasy races as part of the setting rather than as protagonists, you can introduce those races as fantastic. You don't need to introduce new races that are completely unfamiliar when the ones at hand are fantastic enough. Why should I invent the Scidhe Fax, a race of 6" tall fairies with draconic features to enhance the fantasy element of my game, when compared to the Human player characters, stumbling across an Elven village is fantasy enough; the inhabitants of the village seem distant and unknowable, aloof from the affairs of the short lived and violent monkeys blundering through their territory. Compared to the PC's, the NPC's in this village have superhuman reflexes and cat-like grace, they casually notice things the humans cannot even hope to perceive and the one guide that escorts them to the dragons lair appears to know more, even, than the Druid in the party about the local flora and fauna.

When describing this village and its inhabitants, as the GM, I can elaborate and embellish to my hearts content because it's a situation unfamiliar to the characters and because none of those characters are Elves, I can have certain aspects remain hidden or obscure. If one of the players were an Elf, I would have to concede that such elaboration and embellishment is unnecesary because if I have done a good job (as GM) in providing sufficient background for what it means to be an Elf in this setting, then he already knows this. So the Human PC's might experience a certain amount of fantasy (assuming their Elven companion has not spoken about it either in or out of character), but the Elf PC does not and because I am conscious of this, the amount of fantasy I inject into the scene is lessened so as not to impede the enjoyment of the Elf Player. I would also be limited on the amount of things I can keep hidden; an Elf Player might already know that the King of the Elves is really the secondary power on the throne after his Queen and so prevent the GM from using this information to mislead the PC's for the greater benefit of the plot or character interaction.

Is any of this making sense, or am I just deluding myself that my proposed fix will achieve more than I anticipate?

[awa]

the problem their is those elves arnt fantastic their just mary sues and that's far more common in fiction than elves being integrated of human society.

the pcs wont see this elven village and say wow look at this magical and mysterious place they will see just another cookie cutter hidden elf city and start making jokes about how you cant argue with elves and elves are always better. ect.

now of course you could change their culture so thoroughly that they become mysterious again but at that point you might has well have just made a new race.

[JellyPooga]

the problem their is those elves arnt fantastic their just mary sues and that's far more common in fiction than elves being integrated of human society.

OK, perhaps it was a bad example (I knew I should have gone with Dwarves!). Seriously, though, it's not that the Elves are better than the PC's that makes them fantastic, it's the fact that they're different, outside of their (the characters, that is, not the players) normal experience and not just a bunch of tree-hugging hippies of the kind you see strolling through the village every sunday afternoon. The Players may well just joke about Elves having sticks up their rear and such, but at least 3 months down the line when looking back on "that campaign that had the Elves in it", the Elves stood out from the crowd, were memorable solely for being Elves and not just another "cookie cutter hidden elven village", because it was the only hidden elven village the player characters ever came across and ever will.

[PaintByBlood]

If you can find players intersted, or convince players to be interested, I think a campaign of humans in a world like D&D could be very interesting indeed. Or maybe get them all to agree on being one or two races that would be fairly familiar with eachother. A party entirely of elves, a party of humans and halflings, etc.
I can absolutely see how the overabundance (or apparent overabundance at least) of unusual examples of elves communing with humans or dwarves cavorting about on the surface could injure the perception of those races fantastical elements. The traditional approach of fantasy novels is often for a single human or party of humans (or very nearly humans, like the hobbits of Lord of the Rings) to be the protagonists and essentially act the part of us as they make their way through a vast world of magic, and mystery as well.
D&D certainly moves away from that, and I see no reason to not try shifting back - so long as you have players you don't have to browbeat into doing it.

Though, it may be worth trying a new setting, or even system, to do it. Perhaps something more solidly rare-magic, because another thing that detracts from the typical fantasy experience, I think, is the ability to quickly become powerful wizards and clerics, and in great numbers.

[Zerasen]

I understand where you're coming from but I'm in agreement with awa. Even if you take the races away from the PCs, it won't change that they already know what the races are like. They would already understand the setting you described of the secluded elf village, unless they're very new to fantasy. Things like Lord of the Rings and fantasy RPGs have made us fantasy lovers painfully familiar with these elements without us ever having to actually play them in D&D.

Despite race, players usually just end up playing themselves in a different skin unless they're truly devoted to the role-playing aspect of D&D, anyway. Obviously, there's nothing wrong with that; it's simply an like interpretation of the race or personality filter.

I suppose what I'm trying to say, in the end, is that, your solution wouldn't truly solve the problem, and I'm not sure that there's a solution that allows you to retain classic fantasy races and their sense of fantasy or uniqueness. Personally, I've avoided this feeling by near exclusively playing my friend's setting which features a whole new set of races, each with their own features separate from classic fantasy

Hope some part of this helps you out

[Gamer Girl]

Am I being too harsh in my estimation and solution?
Is my solution a potential 'fix' for the problem I'm perceiving?
Am I just playing the wrong game? If so, have you any other suggestions?

Your solution makes no sense.

You, the DM, need to add the fantasy feeling. For example, most of my elves in My Game are strange and mysterious. They act 'weird' to humans. They have very different ways and customs and even more so magic to an extreme. Even a simple elf will have all sorts of 'special elf magic'.

And most of the time, when a player is non-human, I will have them be an outcast, so they don't get the 'cool stuff'(You need to be a good player to get 'cool stuff').

You don't 'have' to make the races like they are in the book...

[JellyPooga]

Your solution makes no sense.

Why? (asked purely in the spirit of inquiry)

You, the DM, need to add the fantasy feeling. For example, most of my elves in My Game are strange and mysterious. They act 'weird' to humans. They have very different ways and customs and even more so magic to an extreme. Even a simple elf will have all sorts of 'special elf magic'.

So what happens when a Player comes along and plays an Elf who doesn't fit this model? The "fantasy feel" you've created has evaporated because a player didn't feel like 'playing ball' with your setting.

And most of the time, when a player is non-human, I will have them be an outcast, so they don't get the 'cool stuff'(You need to be a good player to get 'cool stuff').

Does it not seem harsh to say "Hey yeah, you can play an Elf" and then turn around and say "Psh, you're not playing an Elf right, so you don't get the tasty ice cream of deliciousness. You have to eat the boring flavour"?

By limiting the field, you increase the potential for making things more fantastic. Perhaps PaintbyBlood has it right, I'm thinking; I need not to limit players to Human only but rather to campaign appropriate races only. If I want to feature Elves as a big NPC aspect, then no Elves in the party (for example).

[PaintByBlood]

By limiting the field, you increase the potential for making things more fantastic. Perhaps PaintbyBlood has it right, I'm thinking; I need not to limit players to Human only but rather to campaign appropriate races only. If I want to feature Elves as a big NPC aspect, then no Elves in the party (for example).

Of course I'm right!

More seriously, I think the main thing to do is to capture the sense of characters that are as unnaccustomed to the realm as you want the players controlling them to be (or the readers in the case of the books I'm getting these thoughts from). If there are other ways to do it consider those as well, but limiting the races to some degree is definitely a way to do so, I think.
A band of humans and halflings that crosses fabled elves, a group of elves venturing into the lands of dwarves where the two races have always held the other at an arms-length. Perhaps you could even have a full mix, and send them into the wilds to mingle with fae or into some depths to find drow, or somewhere else entirely to speak with beings of pure liquid. Anything where the characters are finding something they have only heard whispers of - or less - and perhaps preferably that the players have no knowledge of as well.
I think a new setting may be the strongest way to do this, but a bit of homebrew could be powerful too. Personally, I'm relishing the chance to soon introduce a group to a world of vampires not a one of them should know a lick about beforehand - past the stereotypes and myths we already have, and that VtM essentially expects from new initiates. But that's not quite here or there, I'm just excited.

[Jack of Spades]

So what happens when a Player comes along and plays an Elf who doesn't fit this model? The "fantasy feel" you've created has evaporated because a player didn't feel like 'playing ball' with your setting.

Does it not seem harsh to say "Hey yeah, you can play an Elf" and then turn around and say "Psh, you're not playing an Elf right, so you don't get the tasty ice cream of deliciousness. You have to eat the boring flavour".

By paragraph:
1. As she (oh wow I feel really dumb for checking gender on that username) said, they don't fit the model because they're outcasts or just strange. Sometimes, people in a given culture are weird. They don't generally stick around. Obviously in your hypothetical setting the elves don't get out of their forest villages much. Thus, a PC elf is already weird for an elf. Allow them to be weirder.

2. Well, first of all, you phrase it, "Sure, play an elf, but..." And second of all, most adventurers are outcasts. That's just how the business of adventuring is. They don't get the crazy elf magic because they skipped town before the initiation, the magic comes from the stone in the middle of town or the water in the area, or because of whatever other caveat you feel like throwing out. The characters have class levels. They'll end up special enough. It's fine that they're not quite the same kind of special as the special NPC's.

[Gamer Girl]

Why? (asked purely in the spirit of inquiry)

You can't bring back the fantasy feeling by removing the fantasy.

So what happens when a Player comes along and plays an Elf who doesn't fit this model? The "fantasy feel" you've created has evaporated because a player didn't feel like 'playing ball' with your setting.

Does it not seem harsh to say "Hey yeah, you can play an Elf" and then turn around and say "Psh, you're not playing an Elf right, so you don't get the tasty ice cream of deliciousness. You have to eat the boring flavour"?

Well, not exactly. Unless the player is really into the idea, they won't be a 'true' elf in the setting. This is common with 'optimizer builds' who just want 'elf' for something. And most players are an 'outsider' type elf by default, but that is fine as typically an outsider type is an adventurer.

I also have a complex setting, so other then just the couple of sub races, there are lots of communities, tribes and groups. So there is not 'just one way' to play an elf. Often, I'll know the player well enough to fit them to a type.

By limiting the field, you increase the potential for making things more fantastic. Perhaps PaintbyBlood has it right, I'm thinking; I need not to limit players to Human only but rather to campaign appropriate races only. If I want to feature Elves as a big NPC aspect, then no Elves in the party (for example).

I do it opposite, I over saturate the field. And it works great. A lot of PC elves come from the 'Treeless Elves'. This type of elf is from a fallen house and has had no choice but to leave the normal elf way of life and live with another race, often humans. Then the PC is a second generation, and elf born in a human city.

[ScubaGoomba]

I'm going to go ahead and echo the sentiment that you may want to try a new setting or system entirely. Since you play D&D, why not try d20 Modern? By setting it in the modern day, your players will already have a sense of familiarity with what's going on. The only playable races as per the Core Rulebook are Humans, so you wouldn't have to worry about breaking any rules to get in there. Even the magic classes are relegated to Advanced Classes provided only through setting supplements in the Core Book or rule expansions.

Start the game off in a modern setting with the players playing as modern heroes. You see Modern Fantasy in so many different mediums; James Bond, Oceans 11, Rush Hour, 24, etc. These are all modern day tales, but the scope of what happens is the realm of fantasy. No Elves, no Dwarves, just a common setting with no preconceived notions of what a "Dwarf" should be or what an "Elf" should be.

So after a few sessions, you start to work in the mystical. The players won't expect it and you can even rename things. The Elves are no longer called Elves, despite acting exactly as you would treat an Elf. The players have something new in a setting that they already know (meaning they won't be making false preconceptions). The fantastic stays arcane throughout.

And, for the record, I don't think banning all races but Humans is a terrible idea at all.

[Jack of Spades]

I'm going to go ahead and echo the sentiment that you may want to try a new setting or system entirely. Since you play D&D, why not try d20 Modern? By setting it in the modern day, your players will already have a sense of familiarity with what's going on. The only playable races as per the Core Rulebook are Humans, so you wouldn't have to worry about breaking any rules to get in there. Even the magic classes are relegated to Advanced Classes provided only through setting supplements in the Core Book or rule expansions.

Start the game off in a modern setting with the players playing as modern heroes. You see Modern Fantasy in so many different mediums; James Bond, Oceans 11, Rush Hour, 24, etc. These are all modern day tales, but the scope of what happens is the realm of fantasy. No Elves, no Dwarves, just a common setting with no preconceived notions of what a "Dwarf" should be or what an "Elf" should be.

So after a few sessions, you start to work in the mystical. The players won't expect it and you can even rename things. The Elves are no longer called Elves, despite acting exactly as you would treat an Elf. The players have something new in a setting that they already know (meaning they won't be making false preconceptions). The fantastic stays arcane throughout.

And, for the record, I don't think banning all races but Humans is a terrible idea at all.

Hm... You say d20 modern, but you're basically describing Shadowrun (another excellent system, from what I hear).

[JellyPooga]

You can't bring back the fantasy feeling by removing the fantasy.

That's just it, I'm not removing the fantasy, I'm shifting the source. I get it that players want to play non-human characters (I don't think I've ever played a Human in a fantasy game, myself) and by taking away that option, many players will feel like they're losing an element of what makes the game 'fantasy'. However, what I'm suggesting is that by enforcing just that and shifting that 'fantasy' element into a more stable and controllable medium (i.e. the setting and plot) you enhance how fantastic that element can be. Which gives a greater sense of the fantastic; a novel or an rpg? Typically, the former gives a greater return. By placing the fantasy elements in the hands of the GM, an rpg could become something more akin to a novel because he can use those fantasy elements to a greater degree to shape the game, instead of just chucking them out there for all and sundry to use.

Well, not exactly. Unless the player is really into the idea, they won't be a 'true' elf in the setting. This is common with 'optimizer builds' who just want 'elf' for something.

Ah hah! This is exactly where the fantasy element is being lost. "Elf" to many players has become just a set of stats that he can hang his or her character on (or, even worse, just a way of getting the best attack bonus or a means to get into such-and-such Prestige Class or whatever). What I'm saying is that if Players cannot be bothered to play an Elf and everything that entails within the setting, then they should not be allowed to play an Elf at all. To play an Elf you should be "really into the idea". If you're not, then why roleplay at all...why not just play Risk or Monopoly?

I do it opposite

As you say, this works great for you. I'm trying something similar; the current game I'm running has a kind of 'oversaturation', as you put it. Every session, though, I'm losing a little bit of what makes the game 'fantasy' to me. The first couple of sessions, the player of the Catfolk Scout character was really emphasising his Catfolk traits, as were the Halfling and the Warforged respectively. As sessions go on, repeating the same emphases of traits is swiftly becoming tiresome and I can't help but think that eventually, it will just become boring to mention for the hundreth time that "the shopkeep looks nervously up at the 7ft man of metal, wood and stone, unsure of what to expect as his eyes dart nervously between it and the Catfolk lounging in the corner cleaning his nails with a dagger". If that Warforged was an NPC, involved for a couple of sessions and then moved on, then I can't help but think that his being a Warforged would actually mean something beyond the stats he has written on his character sheet.

[ScubaGoomba]

Hm... You say d20 modern, but you're basically describing Shadowrun (another excellent system, from what I hear).

Yes and no. One of the key conceits to the more "traditional" fantasy settings in d20 Modern (Shadow Slayers, Agents of PSI, and Urban Arcana) is that the fantastic is still very much fantastic. It's not the kind of thing that people encounter regularly, so a setting that's just D&D in the future isn't quite there, although I can see the similarity.

What I'm getting at, basically, is that by changing the setting to modern day (or just not the traditional pseudo-middle ages that we've come to expect), you instantly create a setting that the players don't have preconceived notions about. Using the modern setting just lulls them into a false sense of security.

I'm not suggesting that, once the fantastic is established, it becomes the norm, but that it is a pervasive threat or, at the very least, a poorly understood nuisance. Watch shows like Angel or Buffy the Vampire Slayer to get what I mean. When people that aren't convinced that the fantastic exists come face-to-face with it, they rationalize it off as something else. When the players first encounter an Elf, it wouldn't be a moment of "Oh hey, there's an Elf and there's also a whole civilization of them running around everywhere," but that it's a new intrusion on their home. Just because something exists doesn't mean it's pervasive.

[BootStrapTommy]

Q: What's gone wrong?
A: All those 'fantasy' elements have become far too 'normal'.

Q: Why have they become 'normal'?
(My) A: Those fantasy elements were given to the players to do with as they please.

Allow me to explain. In literature, the author has licence to make X race or Y culture whatever he pleases. If he wants Elves to be just another aspect of a multi-cultural region and common as the next guy, then he just writes it that way. If he wants them to be a rare and dying breed that only has tenuous relations with human nations, then so be it.

In an RPG that allows Elves as player characters (to continue the example), the "author" is several people; the GM and the Players. The GM has a greater say in the plot of the tale, but the Players have (largely speaking) absolute fiat regarding the protagonists of that saga. If one of those protagonists is of a race that has been written into the plot as untrusted by humans, supposedly rare, etc. then all of those aspects are marginalised (at best) or ignored (more common) because a member of that race is present in practically every scene and nothing the GM says, at the end of the day, will stop the player playing that Elf however he likes (e.g. the GM says Elves are aloof and arrogant, the Player says that his Elf is gregarious and friendly). The 'fantasy' Elf has become 'normal' and there's only so many times you can emphasise (as a GM) that characters unusual heritage before it starts either a)becoming dull and repetitious or b)looking like penalising the player for choosing to play a character of that race.

You kinda reminded me of Drizzt Do' Urden from R. A. Salvatore's works. No one trusts the Drow. On the surfaces the Drow are hated. Yet when people build Drow they rarely think of this. They usually build a Drow for the abilities the Drow get naturally. They rarely realize that in only a very few towns in the world would a Drow be tolerated, let along accepted. We need more people who go "It doesn't matter that your Drow is Neutral Good, everyone hates Drow, even if it is out of ignorance. Go sleep in the woods."

Another solution, one which I have found effective is to allow anything which even has the slightest chance of being within the rules. Give the players points for creativity and thinking outside the box.

If they figure out how to make the party a three-stage human rocket, let them. If they figure out how to actually nuke a battlefield, let them. If they can make a character who does some quirky-ass **** like throw Colossal arrows with mage hand and use a impossibly big weapon, let them do it and succeed. The best way to restore fantasy to the fantasy is the restore the absurd. Willfully suspend disbelief. Stop saying "That does even make sense" or "that's absurd" or "that's ridiculous" and let the players (within the rules, of course) be creative and stupid, because the creative and the absurd are the very foundation of fantasy.

[Knaight]

You kinda reminded me of Drizzt Do' Urden from R. A. Salvatore's works. No one trusts the Drow. On the surfaces the Drow are hated. Yet when people build Drow they rarely think of this. They usually build a Drow for the abilities the Drow get naturally. They rarely realize that in only a very few towns in the world would a Drow be tolerated, let along accepted. We need more people who go "It doesn't matter that your Drow is Neutral Good, everyone hates Drow, even if it is out of ignorance. Go sleep in the woods."

Drizzt Do'Urden is a disliked character for a very good reason, and that centers around how the drow being hated appearing over and over quickly became tedious (as well as bad writing, particularly in the diary entries). It was predictable, it was repetitive; these things are not conducive to a sense of fantasy. If anything, the fantasy feel is largely centered on the unpredictable and the novel, where there is a pervasive sense of whimsy and a world that is much bigger than the understanding or knowledge of it.

The problem, then, is not one of elves, dwarves, and such being mundane. It's one of elves, dwarves and such being overused. The fantastic elements seem to always draw from the same few sources, where parts of Tolkien's work; a bit of Greek, Norse, and Irish mythology, and early sword and sorcery blend. These things have simply been used too much to be fantastic anymore. So, why not try something fundamentally different, where the things really are new?

I'd actually recommend reading a fantasy trilogy, simply because it is very different from most fantasy and as such seems fantastic. Find Alan Dean Foster's The Journey of the Catechist. Observe how it has a more fantastic feel than most fantasy, and note how the hallmarks of D&D style fantasy (and for that matter european fantasy in general) are conspicuously absent.

[NichG]

I don't think the OP's solution would fail, but I do think it would tend to alienate players. The way I would phrase this fundamental problem is something like this:

For there to be wonder, the players and their characters must encounter things that lie outside of what is normal for them. Therefore, the more exotic the players' characters become, the more exotic anything wondrous must be in order to be so.

A human might find an elf wondrous, but an elf will not find one of his own kind wondrous. An elf might find a dragon wondrous if you're lucky, but a half-dragon Vecna-blooded illithid probably would not.

One solution is to introduce things that are novel or strange to the setting. Be unafraid of homebrew, and use it extensively, and don't explain it to the players - make them figure out what's going on in character. Over time though, you can get into an arms race: the players have a set of growing and increasingly fantastical options, and the DM keeps having to introduce thing N+1 that is more special than everything else.

This can be awesome for awhile but it tends to wear thin after a few campaigns. Often the solution is to change up the game system to something people aren't accustomed to for a campaign or two, so that everything is new and wondrous.

In general though, I think the solution basically has to be 'new content must be introduced at a constant rate'. Even if everyone is forced to play a human, once the players are familiar with how your elves work they'll no longer be fantastical, even if they're new to their characters.

[Hylas]

Elves are ten-a-penny and meeting one is about as mysterious and rare as meeting a Bristolian in Cardiff.

I had the same feeling until one time I played in a campaign (GURPS) where you really did rarely see elves, and no players really played them because they were so expensive and had disads that made them hard to have in a party. That and they lived for 1000 years and would just accumulate points and eventually become these 600+ point value characters (our characters were super strong, rocking a total of 250 points each). You never knew what an elf could pull out because they usually had exotic magic and strange martial training.

To put it into 3.5 terms, all elf NPCs were high level wizard gestalts and you could never be sure what the other half was.

So the reason why things are becoming less wonder and more familiar is because they're becoming more familiar. You have the elf racial stats memorized. You know the strengths and weaknesses of orcs. When the unknown becomes known everything is much less scary and awe inspiring.

[BootStrapTommy]

Drizzt Do'Urden is a disliked character for a very good reason, and that centers around how the drow being hated appearing over and over quickly became tedious (as well as bad writing, particularly in the diary entries). It was predictable, it was repetitive; these things are not conducive to a sense of fantasy. If anything, the fantasy feel is largely centered on the unpredictable and the novel, where there is a pervasive sense of whimsy and a world that is much bigger than the understanding or knowledge of it.

I was a HUGE fan of the journal entries, mainly do to there philosophical nature and their real world commentary. I'm inclined to believe (though likely wrong) that you may have simply not liked them do to Salvatore's overt conservative commentary contained within them. They were intented as a way for him to channel himself and his ideals into Drizzt.

As for the hatred of the Drow becoming tedious, I'd beg to differ. My point was that there are the ways things are meant to be played and then there are the ways we play things in our familiarity. I think it would be hard pressed for any of us here to claim that we are familiar with playing characters who are outcast from society because of what they are innate and not who they are. That is a feeling and a style I'd say we are all unfamiliar with. but that is how a Drow on the surface should work. Yet we don't do that. this is something that exists throughout fantasy based RPGs. Players become familiar, but in doing so they often rob the roleplaying elements from what they are doing in favor of doing as they please. I mean, who here actually pays that much attention to the roleplaying requirements of a monk? Of a cleric? We pay attention to the paladin, but only because the paladin is roleplaying requirement hyperbole.

A good way to restore the fantasy is to reintroduce those things which makes elves, dwarves, gnomes, and halflings novel, things which we have forgotten and seem to have even forgotten that we've forgotten.

I had the same feeling until one time I played in a campaign (GURPS) where you really did rarely see elves, and no players really played them because they were so expensive and had disads that made them hard to have in a party. That and they lived for 1000 years and would just accumulate points and eventually become these 600+ point value characters (our characters were super strong, rocking a total of 250 points each). You never knew what an elf could pull out because they usually had exotic magic and strange martial training.

At this point I would like to make a plug for the wonderful, even if complicated, system that is GURPS. The way GURPS's disadvantages and advantages system works, your characters have a level of novelty which is not only custom designed by each player and vast in its possibilities, but also enforceable by the GM, making the novelty of each character something which innately part of the game, not just the Player. The very unique ways in which you can make insanely inept parties who face complex and isotypical situations makes GURPS insanely fun, and allows the GM to be insanely original and open.

At least in my humble opinion. But that could be biased by my positives feeling for the system.

[Milo v3]

That's just it, I'm not removing the fantasy, I'm shifting the source. I get it that players want to play non-human characters (I don't think I've ever played a Human in a fantasy game, myself) and by taking away that option, many players will feel like they're losing an element of what makes the game 'fantasy'. However, what I'm suggesting is that by enforcing just that and shifting that 'fantasy' element into a more stable and controllable medium (i.e. the setting and plot) you enhance how fantastic that element can be.

From this, I'm guessing players wouldn't be allowed to use the Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, or Wizard classes.

Ah hah! This is exactly where the fantasy element is being lost. "Elf" to many players has become just a set of stats that he can hang his or her character on (or, even worse, just a way of getting the best attack bonus or a means to get into such-and-such Prestige Class or whatever).

Then that is the fault of the setting, or you if you made the setting.
For my players, elves aren't just stats. They are children of Kephrana who wander the grim and dark rainforests of Estikar with their souls physically manifested by their side. Because of this one of my players checks for the familiar whenever they see an elf.

SNIP

May I ask how you make races like Warforged and Catfolk more than just statistics? What actually makes them a proper race in your world?

[Totally Guy]

Ah hah! This is exactly where the fantasy element is being lost. "Elf" to many players has become just a set of stats that he can hang his or her character on (or, even worse, just a way of getting the best attack bonus or a means to get into such-and-such Prestige Class or whatever). What I'm saying is that if Players cannot be bothered to play an Elf and everything that entails within the setting, then they should not be allowed to play an Elf at all. To play an Elf you should be "really into the idea".

I hear you. This is the fault of the setting as implied by the game rules.

If being an elf is a big deal to the kind of game you want to run/play then I would recommend playing a game where the implications of being an elf imposes some restrictions that are in themselves a big deal. The concept of elveness can give you legitimate feedback.

Check out the Burning Wheel for Elves and Dwarves that are mechanically shaped by their society and play differently as a result of that. I'm talking about Dwarves that become fixated by and act in the pursuit of riches and craftsmanship and Elves that are slow to go to war because of the toll it'd take on their souls and those of their people.

[zz78q5]

I completely Agree with the author of this post.

I dont know how long have any of you been GM'ing, but I have been doing it for quite a long time, and I really miss the fantastic elements around non-human races we had back in AD&D 2° ed (for instance).

I can only share my opinion and experiences on this subject since I have encountered quite different reactions to this very same problem.

In MY opinion, non-human races should not be banned from being player characters, but limited (i will elaborate on this point), for instance, to 1/3 of the party. That means, in a group of 6 players, 4 would be human, and only 2 non-human races.

Why? WHY?!!!! would you say. The answer is not simple to explain, and it is even difficult for players (and those who have never GM'ed) to understand.

Lets see if I can make a point without too much jibber-jabber.

In my experiencie with all of D&D products, I've seen how non-human races have evolved from rare and occasional to common over the different iterations of the game. In 2 ed, elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc they had a strong concept for their cultural features, and much of the details were left to the GM to "create" (of course, those details would have to complement the already strong concept). For instance, Elves were long lived beings of magic and grace, that lived in armony with nature and appreciate art and knowledge above all else. Being an Elf was a lot more than "having a +2 to Dex and -2 to Con and being proficient with a bow". Only players that liked "that concept" of elves would play elves. When the game moved into 3.0 and later to 3.5, the non-human races suffered (yes, in my opinion they "suffered") a "cosmopolitanization" (dont even know if that word exists, but if it didnt, it does now) that made them more "user friendly". That meant a lot to the game; players how would otherwise never play elves because of their "magical and artistical nature-oriented cultures" had now the option of being part of a "small community of elves that branch out of the "now" "typical" elves" (aka tree hugging hippies). That encouraged players to start thinking of their characters in terms of "what I want it to look like" instead of "what I means to the Campaing World".

Also, when the game moved from 2 ed to 3 ed, the Race+Class combination limits were removed, which meant now there could be Dwarven Mages (which was unthinkable in 2ed since one of the pilars of the Dwarven Culture concept was the way they just dont trust magic - and are hence resistent to most of their effects).

I cant say this change was entirely a bad thing, but it helped killing the "fantastic elemts" around non-human races.

With the proliferation of Suplements (The Complete Series, the Races series and so on), more and more options where available for the players, which meant, GM's were forced to add elements to their campaings they some times dont even liked just to prevent players from abandoning the tables. A GM with a Good Campaing, but without Players, is just a guy with a cool story to tell but no one there to hear it.

After some years of playing "the new way" things started to balance out. GM's found ways to integrate undsired elements into their world settings, they made peace with new races (sometimes; I still struggle with most non-human races outside PHB1) and the game turned into "all about the players". The GM was forced to adjust their campaing settings to the players' desires of playing this or that race.

In my experience, whenever I would say "i have a campaing, but these are some of the "limitations" the players have" (for instace, there could be no gnomes in the party) I would face extreme rejection; and I've always been running 2-3 tables at the time, so facing this rejection from 3 unrelated players' groups made a point clear: It is all about the players now.

So, what does all of these have to do with the Fantastic elements of the game being missing in action?

Well, this shows that the Fantastic elements are not actually lost, but players are the ones that prevent those fantastic elements to be really fantastic. Yes. THE PLAYERS. I said it.

Of course, you can always stumble across some old school player that would give you a high five, to the face, with a hammer, if you ever prompt him with the idea of Dwarves being Mages, but most of those guys are married now and they rarely have enough time to play.

I am not saying that "new generation" players are bad, but that they percieve the game from another perspective.

Ok, with all that background, I can now elaborate on the "limit the amount of non-human races in the party".

What I've found rather successful is this: when you start a new campaing, the first thing you say is: there can only be "x" non-human races in the party, i dont care wich, but i need to know which races. You guys figure out who will play which race.


How does this "fix" the fantastic elements? Well, by limiting the number of non-human races in the party you prevent the following from happening:

- A complete non-human party. I've played with this, and it literally ruined the flavor of the campaing. Completely.

- Races being too common. Why, if they are so rare, would be 1 member of 3 different races traveling around the world in sort of a halloween-kids party? And of course, there needs to be a strong motive to have those 1 or 2 non-human races in the party.

- Out-shine from members of the same race. This is fairly more difficult to prevent, but by limiting the number of non-human races, players tend to diversify instead of having the only 2 non-human being of the same race.



As a final appreciation, all of this considerations only serve players and GM's that like playing mystic and fantastic worlds/campaings and are less "casual" players than most of the players.

If you are a player who thinks of your character as "I can get a +1 bonus from this racial trait" then all of the above will make no sense to you.
If you are a player who thinks of your character as "I am a member of a culture that upholds certain values, and I like to play a character instead of a statistics block" then you my find yourself agreeing with maybe some of my points.

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As a side note: I've been working on a solution for this same problem for a time now, let me know if you would like to get into a more detailed discussion about what can GM's do to "fix" the fantasy in fantasy RPGs.
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Peace.

[Deepbluediver]

Rather than banning certain races as playable, or forcing players to "earn" it via either accomplishments or roleplayng skill, why not make racial selection random by dice, in proportion to how often the races show up in your world?

{table=head]Race|D100 Roll
Human|1-50

Dwarf|51-55

Gnome|56-62

Halfing|63-66

Elf|67

Orc|68-79|

Goblin|80-86|

Kobold|87-91|

Lizard-folk|92-96

Yaun-ti|97-99

Minotaur|100[/table]


Ideally you would also have some sort of system so that races got a continous benefit as they leveled up, so the abilities that are designed to be balanced at level 1 don't get eclipsed by levle 10. For example (and this is just off the top of my head) Dwarves get a scaling version of either DR or magic resistance, and elves get a few SLAs every couple of levels, but that obviously takes a lot more work.