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2012-09-07, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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A Simple Test For MAD; The Three 8s Rule
I've been working on a few class fixes, part of which has involved fixing MAD issues with some. In the process, I've developed a simple test to check for MAD issues, and would like some feedback to see what the playground thinks of it;
Assume a theoretical member of the class being tested has a 16 in its three most important stats, and an 8 in the other three. If the character would be able to function fine, both in and out of combat, than the class is acceptable from a MAD standpoint. If the class would have severe issues, on the other hand, than it needs to be reworked.If brute force isn't working, that just means you're not using enough of it.
When in doubt, set something on fire. If not in doubt, set something on fire anyway.
My Homebrew
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2012-09-07, 01:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
- Location
- Freljord
Re: A Simple Test For MAD; The Three 8s Rule
If a character with a 3x16+3x8 array would function fine, they can still be pretty MAD, if they were pretty reliant on the scores they had 16s in.
Testing for SAD is, of course, very simple.
I prefer my classes to be BAD, possibly with a twinge of TAD.Homebrewer's Signature | Avatar by Strawberries
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2012-09-07, 01:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- St. Louis
Re: A Simple Test For MAD; The Three 8s Rule
I can see this working. For example, let me compare the 3.5 Paladin to the Pathfinder version.
In a PF Paladin, a character with 16s in Strength, Charisma, and Constitution would be fairly decent, even with 8s in the rest. However, a 3.5 Paladin would at that point have completely worthless spellcasting. They would have to either give up their class features, hitpoints or the ability to deal damage to get it back.
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2012-09-07, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
Re: A Simple Test For MAD; The Three 8s Rule
except that a +6 wisdom item negates that problem.
also, there is the significant problem of comparing the PF paladin to the 3.5 one, where the PF paladin has less of a MAD issue, but is actually lower tier then the 3.5 one (considering there are ways in 3.5 to reduce MAD for pally, ACFs and Substitution levels that just put PF archetypes to shame, and other benefits of a massive 4 year project)My Homebrew: found here.
When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes
PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.
Drow avatar @ myself
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2012-09-07, 08:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2009
Re: A Simple Test For MAD; The Three 8s Rule
Attribute dependency isn't a measure of power. Look at the Warlock and Dragon Fire Adept: neither is top-ranked in terms of power, but the former is dependent on no attributes, and the latter only on Constitution. Not saying there isn't a relationship, but the one isn't clear if it is present.
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
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2012-09-07, 08:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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Re: A Simple Test For MAD; The Three 8s Rule
If you have to spend 36,000 gp on a stat boosting item in order to use your class features, then, in my opinion, your class is too MAD.
The idea behind the test is that a class should be able to safely dump at least three stats without needing to expend extra resources in order to function in the areas it's supposed to be able to function. Obviously, the fewer stats a class needs the better, but I feel three is a reasonable maximum.
Edit:
While SAD isn’t necessarily an indication of a high-tier class, serious issues with MAD is often part of the problem behind many low-tier classes, particularly those who tend to attract homebrew fixes.
This test is supposed to show whether or not a class is sufficiently MAD that it negatively impacts its viability.Last edited by Alabenson; 2012-09-07 at 08:41 PM.
If brute force isn't working, that just means you're not using enough of it.
When in doubt, set something on fire. If not in doubt, set something on fire anyway.
My Homebrew
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2012-09-07, 10:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2012
Re: A Simple Test For MAD; The Three 8s Rule
My Homebrew: found here.
When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes
PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.
Drow avatar @ myself
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2012-09-08, 02:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
- Location
- Freljord
Re: A Simple Test For MAD; The Three 8s Rule
Well, there's also the fact that there are feats that change the Paladin's Cha features to Wis, or their spellcasting to Cha, but those are Dragon material.
Homebrewer's Signature | Avatar by Strawberries
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2012-09-08, 05:04 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
Re: A Simple Test For MAD; The Three 8s Rule
I think this is a very good piece of common sense, but shouldn't it go in the 3.5e RPG section and not homebrew?