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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    Disintegrating Missile
    Transmutation
    Level: Sor/Wiz 2
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
    Targets: Up to ten creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Saving Throw: Fortitude partial (see text)
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    You point your finger, and bolts of green energy leap to the target you specify. This spell functions as the spell Magic Missile, save that each bolt does 2d4 untyped damage, and you may have up to 10 missiles at level 19. Creatures struck may make a Fortitude save to reduce damage to the minimum damage per missile; this save is only rolled once for each creature, regardless of how many individual missiles target them. Additionally, any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected. Lastly, like Magic Missile, this spell is blocked by a Shield spell, but destroys the Shield spell after resolving.
    Last edited by Noctis Vigil; 2015-03-31 at 11:53 PM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Thumbs down Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected.
    Bull****... This Will be abused...
    Last edited by LordErebus12; 2012-09-08 at 04:57 PM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    The last two lines are copied word for word from the Disintegrate spell on the SRD, so there's precedence for the ruling.

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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    The last two lines are copied word for word from the Disintegrate spell on the SRD, so there's precedence for the ruling.
    higher magic, more control... such a low level Disintegrate effect shouldnt be able to just eliminate the target, through clothing, armor, etc.

    it should turn you to dust, gear and all because of its rawer, less powerful caster.

    think on it.

    Edit: how about the effect cannot destroy magical items. lesser gear goes bye bye.???
    Last edited by LordErebus12; 2012-09-08 at 05:14 PM.
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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    Note that this spell effectively does an average of 2,5*CL untyped damage, with NO save and NO attack roll, but SR: yes
    Let's compare that to the well-regarded 4th level Orb of Force: avg. 3,5*CL untyped damage (caps out at 10), ranged touch attack, damage can't be split among targets but SR: no.

    Plus, with a 2nd level spell you can go all out regarding Metamagic. I'm really not an expert on this, but I guess one of them (experts) will demonstrate.
    Last edited by MrLemon; 2012-09-08 at 05:27 PM.

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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLemon View Post
    Note that this spell effectively does an average of 2,5*CL untyped damage, with NO save and NO attack roll, but SR: yes
    Let's compare that to the well-regarded 4th level Orb of Force: avg. 3,5*CL untyped damage (caps out at 10), ranged touch attack, damage can't be split among targets but SR: no.

    Plus, with a 2nd level spell you can go all out regarding Metamagic. I'm really not an expert on this, but I guess one of them (experts) will demonstrate.
    Magic Missile at 20th level, quadruple Empowered*. (1.5^4= 5x damage from each missile)

    1 Missile deals 1d4+1/ ~3.5 damage on average
    3.5*5= 17.5 damage per missile
    +1 missile/2 CL
    5 Missiles at 9th level
    5 variable count missiles * 5 = 25 missiles

    25 * 17.5 = 437.5 damage on average. min 250, max 625 damage

    Disintegrating Missile, triple empowered:

    2d4/5 damage per missile
    1 Missile every odd level
    Triple Empower=3.375*normal variables. 3.375=X

    5*X=16.875
    10*X=33 Missiles
    33*16.875=556.875 Damage average, Low = 222 damage High = 891


    *Standard assumption that the Missile count is a Non-static Variable determined when cast, instead of before hand like Opposed Rolls and Saving Throws.
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-09-08 at 06:04 PM.
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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    This is fine for an 'improved magic missile', but the disintegration is too much...

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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Magic Missile at 20th level, quadruple Empowered*. (1.5^4= 5x damage from each missile)
    That's not how metamagic works.

    Quote Originally Posted by d20srd.com
    Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell
    A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.

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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    I'm looking at scorching ray as the best comparison for 2nd level damage spells and this seems significantly better:

    • Auto hit rather than touch attacks
    • Untyped damage
    • Caps at level 19 rather than 11
    • Deals more damage at level 5, 9 and 13+
    • Is weaker at level 3, 7, and 11 but not by much

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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stu42 View Post
    I'm looking at scorching ray as the best comparison for 2nd level damage spells and this seems significantly better:

    • Auto hit rather than touch attacks
    • Untyped damage
    • Caps at level 19 rather than 11
    • Deals more damage at level 5, 9 and 13+
    • Is weaker at level 3, 7, and 11 but not by much
    and it leaves gear... insulting.
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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by LordErebus12 View Post
    and it leaves gear... insulting.
    lol, seriously, that is not the biggest deal in the world. I actually don't even understand why you are worried about something like this, but not worried about it at higher levels. You've made a fluff argument against it, but presented no mechanical analysis for why it's a problem.

    Anyway, aside from the seemingly random concern over not disintegrating gear, I agree that this deals a lot too much damage. I know Acid Arrow isn't the best spell in the game, but WOW does this put it to shame. It even outperforms Scorching Ray, one of the best damage dealers on the market.

    I would lower the damage to 1d6 per missile, and keep the missiles capped at 5 rather than 10. In its current state you've effectively quadrupled the potential damage output of the spell (pre-metamagic, of course) and added on the disintegrate rider. Alternatively, you could keep the damage and number of missiles where they stand, but add a Fort negates clause, allowing a creature to negate all damage from a single missile will a successful Fort save (to give a nod toward Disintegrate's significant reduction in damage on a successful Fort save).
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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    perhaps a bump in spell level?
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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by LordErebus12 View Post
    perhaps a bump in spell level?
    DDO when it had this spell as named Force Missiles, had it as a 4th level spell.

    Force missiles got really nerfed now though.
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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by LordErebus12 View Post
    and it leaves gear... insulting.
    It leaves gear...just like pretty much every other spell does? I don't understand why this is such a dealbreaker to you. Even Disintegration leaves magical gear while killing the guy in it. Fireball leaves gear, when realistically it would char metal and destroy anything wooden. Even acidic spells typically don't deal damage to equipment unless the caster specifically targets it.

    Anyway. I agree that this spell needs a little bit of work, but that's why the PEACH tag exists. Let's do like everyone else and compare it to an existing, generally agreed-upon powerful spell for 2nd level, Scorching Ray.

    Scorching Ray
    • Requires touch attack, allows SR
    • Deals roughly 1d6 per level with some odd scaling, caps at 12d6.
    • Can be metamagicked out the wazoo.
    • Close Range


    Your spell
    • Autohits, much like magic missile, but also allows SR.
    • Deals roughly 1d4 per level of untyped damage. NOT Force damage. This should be noted as a fact against it. Maxes out at 20d4 damage.
    • Can be metamagicked out the wazoo, but not as much as Scorching Ray, due to it not being a ray.
    • Medium Range, like magic missile.
    • Disintegrates creatures, but not items. This actually gives it less utility.


    Admittedly, the autohit + High cap makes it hard to see this as a 2nd level spell, but I'm also a fan of removing level caps from spells to make low level magic more viable. It's also a disintegration effect. So, here's my suggestion.

    Do ONE of...
    • Give people a fort save for half damage. This is actually much more viable than a reflex save for half, as fewer classes get Mettle than they do Evasion.
    • Make it a 3rd level spell rather than second level.
    • Lower the number of missiles to 5.
    • Make it so that every missile must strike a different opponent, and that excess missiles are lost.
    • Lower the damage dealt to 1d4+2, or something similar. The average on 2d4 is only 5, so this would change the min/max values more than anything else from 2-8 to 3-6, and generally feels less egregious.


    Which people have already suggested, save for increasing the spell level or changing the damage total. You could also try two of the following.

    • Change the type to a non-force energy type and removing the disintegration effect. However, this feels like it would be betraying the flavor of the spell.
    • Change to a short range rather than long.
    • Make it a full-round action to cast. (Which I feel more spells should be anyway...)
    • Make it deal its damage over time. 1d4 this round, 1d4 the next. D&D rewards alpha strikes far more than anything else.
    • Make it have a mild, negative effect on the caster for abusing the spell, such as dazzling him for a few rounds, making him Fatigued for a round, or something similar. Not the greatest idea for a limiting factor, but it would work.
    • Have it damage the caster for each missile above the 5th one. This would keep it loyal to the original spell. Not even anything very big-1 point per extra missile might very well work. Just the fact that you're having to pay to use the spell will make it more viable.


    Anyway. That's just a (long) list of thoughts, here.

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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    I feel like the disintegration makes it a little tougher too. Think of this way -- if a normal attack brings you down to 0 hit points, you're down but not out. If you are destroyed at 0 hit points, you die from something that you would have otherwise been able to recover from (since most non-death/disintegration attacks can only kill you by bringing you to -10 hp, right?)

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    WOW. Was not expecting this much PEACHing. Thanks for all the input you guys!

    Let's see what we have here...

    1.) Gonna leave the disintegration effect. That was kind of the point of writing this, was to create a low level disintegrate spell.

    2.) As for the argument on how much damage it does: someone kindly find me a 6th level spell that does more damage than Disintegrate, please. I was actually aiming to make this deal more damage than the average spell, in an attempt to keep the feel of the original spell. However, while I will not be lowering the damage, I will be adding a Fort partial save, which also keeps the original spell's feel.

    3.) This spell is far less useful than Disintegrate overall, since it can't target objects (something I deliberately avoided, as the ability to turn any obstacle to dust at 3rd level is WAY to useful).

    I think that covers all the issues/suggestions posted? If I missed your suggestion for fixing or a major problem that needs tweaking, hit me with a large fish and call me funny names to get my attention.

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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    While it's true that Disintegrate deals an absurd amount of damage, it's also limited by requiring a ranged touch attack and a fortitude save. You have neither in your spell, and it's far lower level, meaning that you have to balance it out with something equally limiting. A costly material component, burning HP to cast, anything. It's the combination of Damage + High Damage cap + Highly Reliable + No way to mitigate it that makes it such a dealbreaker.

    And for those saying that it's a big deal because you can go to -10...is this really a problem, so long as the DM doesn't use it against you? I know that I rarely let opponents survive once they hit 0.

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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    My main issue with this, apart from damage scaling, is that it is untyped.

    This alone is a huge advantage which maybe bumps a spell up half a lebel or a full level compared to a typed damage spell. Especially at mid to high lebels, when resistances and protections are so common, I'd choose a lower-untyped-damage over a higher-typed-damage spell.

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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    Once again, damage type is the same as Disintegrate. If someone can show me where it lists a specific damage type for that spell, I'll change this spell to match.

    Also, Der_DWSage, check again. My last update added a Fortitude save. Does that help solve your issues?

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    Question Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    How about?

    Disintegrating Missile
    Transmutation
    Level: Sor/Wiz 2
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
    Targets: Up to six creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Saving Throw: Fortitude half
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    You point your finger, the smell of ozone and a flash green light fills the air as bolts of green energy leap from your fingers to the target you specify.

    This spell functions as the spell Magic Missile, save that each bolt does 2d4+1 force damage. The number of bolts fired is equal to one plus one for every four levels and you may have up to 6 missiles at 20th caster level. Creatures struck may make a Fortitude save for half damage (this save is only rolled once for each creature, regardless of how many individual missiles target them).

    Additionally, any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine green-glowing dust. A disintegrated creature’s equipment is otherwise unaffected.
    Last edited by LordErebus12; 2012-09-09 at 02:31 PM.

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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by LordErebus12 View Post
    How about?

    Disintegrating Missile
    Transmutation
    Level: Sor/Wiz 2
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
    Targets: Up to six creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Saving Throw: Fortitude half
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    You point your finger, the smell of ozone and a flash green light fills the air as bolts of green energy leap from your fingers to the target you specify.

    This spell functions as the spell Magic Missile, save that each bolt does 2d4+1 force damage. The number of bolts fired is equal to one plus one for every four levels and you may have up to 6 missiles at 20th caster level. Creatures struck may make a Fortitude save for half damage (this save is only rolled once for each creature, regardless of how many individual missiles target them).

    Additionally, any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine green-glowing dust. A disintegrated creature’s equipment is otherwise unaffected.

    Why that progression?
    How about starting with 2 missiles:

    B]Disintegrating Missile[/B]
    Transmutation
    Level: Sor/Wiz 2
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
    Targets: Up to six creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Saving Throw: Fortitude half
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    You point your finger, the smell of ozone and a flash green light fills the air as bolts of green energy leap from your fingers to the target you specify.

    This spell functions as the spell Magic Missile, save that each bolt does 2d4+1 force damage. The number of bolts fired is equal to two at 3rd level plus one for every 4 levels thereafter (7, 11, 15, 19)and you may have up to 6 missiles at 20th caster level. Creatures struck may make a Fortitude save for half damage (this save is only rolled once for each creature, regardless of how many individual missiles target them).

    Additionally, any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine green-glowing dust. A disintegrated creature’s equipment is otherwise unaffected

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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Why that progression?
    How about starting with 2 missiles:

    B]Disintegrating Missile[/B]
    Transmutation
    Level: Sor/Wiz 2
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
    Targets: Up to six creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Saving Throw: Fortitude half
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    You point your finger, the smell of ozone and a flash green light fills the air as bolts of green energy leap from your fingers to the target you specify.

    This spell functions as the spell Magic Missile, save that each bolt does 2d4+1 force damage. The number of bolts fired is equal to two at 3rd level plus one for every 4 levels thereafter (7, 11, 15, 19)and you may have up to 6 missiles at 20th caster level. Creatures struck may make a Fortitude save for half damage (this save is only rolled once for each creature, regardless of how many individual missiles target them).

    Additionally, any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine green-glowing dust. A disintegrated creature’s equipment is otherwise unaffected
    i like it, fits it better
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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Midwoka View Post
    That's not how metamagic works.
    Then replace 2 Empowers for 1 Energy Addmixture. You need to add an element, but still twice the power for one single feat.

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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    Targets: Up to ten creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
    Not a critique of the damage or mechanics, just the fact that cramming 10 creatures into a 15 ft-radius area is going to be tough.

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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by jmelesky View Post
    Not a critique of the damage or mechanics, just the fact that cramming 10 creatures into a 15 ft-radius area is going to be tough.
    main reason why we (Starbucks and I) reduced it to a maximum of 6.
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    Default Re: "Magic missile? Bah! I can one up that!" (3.5 Spell, PEACH)

    Because what evokers really need is more opportunities for other schools to step on their toes...

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