No Magic Items. Ever.

[Morph Bark]

jk

Well, half. I'm thinking of ditching magic items altogether for my campaign setting and using technology instead (like in d20 Modern/Past/Future/Apocalypse). The technology would still likely be powered by ambient magic energy rather than electricity, but still.

I figure the only magic items I may leave in there would be use-items (potions, scrolls, wands and staves) and weapon and armor crystals, but other than that the only magic items in existence would be artifacts.

What would the impacts of this be on a D&D world, both fluff-wise and mechanically?

[RoyVG]

Well, since I'm a victim of this campaign setting as we speak, I might as well share my thoughts.

With only consumable magic items left in a setting, it means that many 'mundane-magical' items like ability score increasing clothing, either need a new reason to be the way they are, or must be removed. +2 Strength Belt is perfectly fine in a magical world. Technologically, is it a belt constantly pumping adrenalin in your bloodstream, or is this going too far?

You say that the technology doesn't use electricity like we do, rather it uses magic from the environment. Does that mean there are places where this ambient magic is weak, or strong, or even 'overflowing', making machines go out of control? To be honest, this is giving me an enormous Tales of Vesperia vibe, with ambient magic fueling machines and such.

Mechanically speaking, character will likely be a lot weaker when they cannot get 50% of the magic items. It does promote careful thinking in combat, rather than just go in, activate a magic items of 'awesome killing style' and killing everything in the room in 1 or 2 rounds. Players are more vulnerable when they lack magic items.

Also be careful with monsters. Humanoid enemies of high level will likely not have these magic items either, making them 'weaker', but many strong animals don't normally use magic items, and are not weakened this way.

Maybe I'm thinking in the wrong direction here, but still, be careful.

[Yora]

The only real issue would be monster with damage reduction X/magic and X/alignment.

Otherwise, there isn't really anything a party without spellcasters would need except for healing potions and protection against energy attacks.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

That sounds like an interesting premise. I think I would take it a step further by limiting the walking magic items we call spellcasters. Every magic item is tied to a specific spell, right? If those spells did not exist, that would give you the effect you desire. Things like a ring of three wishes, or holy avenger swords should not exist in this game world, and neither should the magic that powers them. Buffs like haste or marginally effective stuff like ability score enhancement items may exist, but in a limited fashion.

[Morph Bark]

Well, since I'm a victim of this campaign setting as we speak, I might as well share my thoughts.

With only consumable magic items left in a setting, it means that many 'mundane-magical' items like ability score increasing clothing, either need a new reason to be the way they are, or must be removed. +2 Strength Belt is perfectly fine in a magical world. Technologically, is it a belt constantly pumping adrenalin in your bloodstream, or is this going too far?

I was thinking of possibly ditching those as well. Like you say, they're magic items, and in technological form they'd be harder to justify, which in that case would mean there would simply be no +[ability score] items, rings of protection, bracers of armor or cloaks of resistance.

You say that the technology doesn't use electricity like we do, rather it uses magic from the environment. Does that mean there are places where this ambient magic is weak, or strong, or even 'overflowing', making machines go out of control? To be honest, this is giving me an enormous Tales of Vesperia vibe, with ambient magic fueling machines and such.

I hadn't actually thought of that. While we're on the track of comparing it to video games, I was more going in a direction of Final Fantasy VII's mako-using devices than Tales of Vesperia's blastia. The difference being that there is no kind of "life stream" involved.

Personal devices could instead run off ambient magic or the user's own magic.

Mechanically speaking, character will likely be a lot weaker when they cannot get 50% of the magic items. It does promote careful thinking in combat, rather than just go in, activate a magic items of 'awesome killing style' and killing everything in the room in 1 or 2 rounds. Players are more vulnerable when they lack magic items.

Also be careful with monsters. Humanoid enemies of high level will likely not have these magic items either, making them 'weaker', but many strong animals don't normally use magic items, and are not weakened this way.

Maybe I'm thinking in the wrong direction here, but still, be careful.

Hmmm, that's true... A lot of things can be covered with technological items instead, but I see your point.

For weapons and armor it would be relatively easy to keep them up to speed, by having the Craft skill be able to increase the enhancement bonus of items you create with a sufficiently high check result.

Things like the Belt of Battle though, that would most likely be out, unless you could somehow manage to create time-dilation devices.

The only real issue would be monster with damage reduction X/magic and X/alignment.

DR/magic would be dropped, most likely, and DR/epic replaced with something else (or it might just need an artifact to break through). DR/alignment would be replaced with special materials, most likely.

That sounds like an interesting premise. I think I would take it a step further by limiting the walking magic items we call spellcasters.

In my case I don't want to get rid of spellcasters, as it'd then feel like I'd be creating a scifi setting rather than a science fantasy setting.

[DeltaEmil]

If playing by 3.x-rules, stats-enhancing items will be necessary, unless you keep the DCs at a low level, and use monsters with not all too high AC and saving throws, or that don't deal too much damage.

[Jeff the Green]

In my case I don't want to get rid of spellcasters, as it'd then feel like I'd be creating a scifi setting rather than a science fantasy setting.

Ah, see, this could be a problem, because spell casters function just fine without magic items, but mundanes don't. If you want a world where mundanes can't hope to compete with mages, that's fine, but you'll have to pay a lot of attention to intra-party balance.

Honestly, I don't think things like +Strength belts (it extends nano fibers into your muscles, increasing their power) +AC rings (deflector shields), or belts of battle (targeted application of stimulants) are that hard to explain with magitek.

[Emmerask]

The only real issue would be monster with damage reduction X/magic and X/alignment.

Otherwise, there isn't really anything a party without spellcasters would need except for healing potions and protection against energy attacks.

pretty easy fix, if alchemy consumables are still available

[Tvtyrant]

You could may various types of Power Armor in order to grant stat boosts. Heavy Offense Power Armor would grant +2 strength for each +1 bonus say, and +1 to con. Heavy Defense Power Armor would reverse that, granting +2 con and +1 strength. Medium would boost dexterity and con, while light would boost dexterity and strength?

[Slipperychicken]

You could say the +Con items administer stimulants, antitoxins, and other medication in small doses to increase resilience.

+Str items produce a weak energy field which assists muscle activity, like powered armor only with energy fields.

+Dex items induce shocks and other stimuli to improve reaction time and coordination.

+AC items use force fields to reduce speed of incoming objects and subtly try to change their trajectory. I'm thinking Mass Effect-style fields here.

[Drglenn]

If you're playing 4e you can use the inherent bonuses rules so that the PCs don't need magic items, obviously they will come in useful for their properties and powers but their enhancement bonuses are unnecessary.

If not you can always refluff magic items (in whatever edition you're playing) to be magitech/magitek.

A third option could be: use a different system entirely: Sounds like World of Darkness would work well for what you're describing, you could take the weapons given in the books and refluff them to fit your setting, maybe even add better versions for if/when the PCs find some tech-enhanced weaponry.

[Arbane]

The only real issue would be monster with damage reduction X/magic and X/alignment.

Otherwise, there isn't really anything a party without spellcasters would need except for healing potions and protection against energy attacks.

Flight? A way to see invisible?

[Cikomyr]

An advice I can give you is simply to remove quantitative magic items.

Magic could remain always mysterious. To quantify something is to understand it, it's to put it in a neat file.

I kinda dislike magic items that work like gadgets. Better than gadgets, really. A wand of fireball or sword +3 is always gonna work okay no matter what.

Me no likey. Magic should be unknown, mysterious. You have to admit, a magic sword you describe as "Oathkeeper" with a certain legend behind it and which binds you to any blood oath you swear with is simply WAY cooler than a ****ing +4 sword.

Make the magic thematic. Make it special. Make it memorable. Magic should be... Magical.

[Emmerask]

Flight?

Use ranged weapons ^^

I cast the mighty chalk cloud!

A way to see invisible?

[Grundy]

If you don't have magic items, but you do have spell casters, then spell casters just become that much better. They become the only real source of magic. Suddenly, they're really the only guys with the big guns. Which, ironically enough, makes them the knight in shining armor, as it were...

[Seerow]

I'd recommend just making stat boosts inherent. I mean, they're needed in game to be able to keep up with monster scaling, but if you just make it something the characters get on level up rather than something that characters need to buy via items, then you're set. Introduce AC scaling with level (similar, if not identical, to BAB), attributes scaling faster with level, and a +1/4 levels boost to hit/damage and all saves, and you can eliminate basically all of the passive +x magic items.

From there any cool effects you want can either come from magic artifacts or tech, as you see fit.

[Morph Bark]

If playing by 3.x-rules, stats-enhancing items will be necessary, unless you keep the DCs at a low level, and use monsters with not all too high AC and saving throws, or that don't deal too much damage.

Eh, if the monsters are appropriately re-CR'd it wouldn't be too much of a problem, I don't think. This way, there'd be the added benefit (well, "benefit") of environmental effects remaining dangerous farther down the line.

Ah, see, this could be a problem, because spell casters function just fine without magic items, but mundanes don't. If you want a world where mundanes can't hope to compete with mages, that's fine, but you'll have to pay a lot of attention to intra-party balance.

We won't be using official caster classes, but homebrew ones. Basically, no Tier 2 stuff or above, and the spells that make classes so would be turned into rituals that anyone could have access to.

You could may various types of Power Armor in order to grant stat boosts. Heavy Offense Power Armor would grant +2 strength for each +1 bonus say, and +1 to con. Heavy Defense Power Armor would reverse that, granting +2 con and +1 strength. Medium would boost dexterity and con, while light would boost dexterity and strength?

You could say the +Con items administer stimulants, antitoxins, and other medication in small doses to increase resilience.

+Str items produce a weak energy field which assists muscle activity, like powered armor only with energy fields.

+Dex items induce shocks and other stimuli to improve reaction time and coordination.

+AC items use force fields to reduce speed of incoming objects and subtly try to change their trajectory. I'm thinking Mass Effect-style fields here.

These are valid suggestions, but would mainly be only viable in post-modern levels of technology. I'm thinking of making the primary tech level be basically Victorian, but with people capable of constructing technology of higher levels be relatively common. Sort of like the Sparks in Girl Genius, but with no madness or leadershipping involved.

A third option could be: use a different system entirely: Sounds like World of Darkness would work well for what you're describing, you could take the weapons given in the books and refluff them to fit your setting, maybe even add better versions for if/when the PCs find some tech-enhanced weaponry.

I'm not familiar with WoD's mechanics, but it uses the same Storyteller system that Exalted does, right? I know Exalted, and that one ended up being a hell to GM...

Also, WoD is a little too horror-based for my tastes, which wouldn't fit the setting. It has some horror tones, but is still very much primarily science fantasy (with a lemon twist of magi-steampunk).

Flight? A way to see invisible?

Jetpacks? Heat-seeing goggles?

An advice I can give you is simply to remove quantitative magic items.

Magic could remain always mysterious. To quantify something is to understand it, it's to put it in a neat file.

Make the magic thematic. Make it special. Make it memorable. Magic should be... Magical.

Well, since we're talking about putting it into a tabletop RPG, magic needs to be quantified, else it wouldn't be "I cast fireball", but "I try to cast fireball and then I look at the DM to see if he's okay with it working this time".

I'm actually unsure about leaving wands and staves in, but potions at least will remain. There would also be rituals useable by everybody, which would be the only ways to use certain very useful spells (teleport, raise dead, those kinds of things, if they'd exist at all).

I'd recommend just making stat boosts inherent. I mean, they're needed in game to be able to keep up with monster scaling, but if you just make it something the characters get on level up rather than something that characters need to buy via items, then you're set. Introduce AC scaling with level (similar, if not identical, to BAB), attributes scaling faster with level, and a +1/4 levels boost to hit/damage and all saves, and you can eliminate basically all of the passive +x magic items.

Something like the Defense Bonus variant rule from Unearthed Arcana? I could make the stat boosts a +1/level.

[Nepenthe]

Eh, if the monsters are appropriately re-CR'd it wouldn't be too much of a problem, I don't think. This way, there'd be the added benefit (well, "benefit") of environmental effects remaining dangerous farther down the line.

I can tell you from experience, this is not an endeavour to take on lightly. You will not be able to use the original CR's at all--even as a guideline. So you're faced with judging every single monster individually or coming up with your own system to assign CR's. Either way you'll need to do a lot of play testing and trial and error. And you'll still have a huge disconnect between casters and mundanes. That's not to say it isn't worth doing; just know what you're getting into.

In my own game, I refluffed everything of at least masterwork quality as either clockwork or alchemical-based, but didn't change any of the mechanics. Seerow's suggestion seems pretty sound too. In fact, I might even try that for a spin-off sometime.

[Nepenthe]

EDIT: Double post, sorry.

[Morph Bark]

Well, I meant mostly in the sense of "make monsters have their actual CR", since some monsters, especially in MMII and FF have terrible CRing, rather than adjusting CR to fit PCs with different equipment. A lot of tech equipment could still do the basic things magic equipment can be expected to do, just not any of the actuall spell stuff (wands, staves, etc.), but flight, stat boosts, mind blank and all that could easily be done.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

If you're taking away magic and turning it into magi-tech (since its machines running on magic) there's a few questions I have before I get long winded. This seems to be focused mostly on arcane magic. Would divine magic be untouched in this particular setting? So clerics still recieved powers from their deity, paladins, so on?

What about druids? Do they still get magicial powers pertaining to nature?

When you say things are still powered by ambient magical energy, do you mean things like the magical elements such as earth, wind, fire, water, electricity, so on.

Would you be opposed to many of the monster turned into constucts so that they retain similar functions to their magical counterparts?

Would you be opposed to people enhancing their bodies in terms of mechanical or ambient magic attunement of some sort?

Would clerics turn into mechanics for machines? XD

Hmmm, I'll stop there for now.

[Tyndmyr]

Hmm, D&D with a different setting, no magic, different classes, and different monsters!

Honestly, if you're not going to play D&D(which is fine, I play not-D&D all the time), you're gonna have a much easier time using a system that more closely matches what you're trying to do. IE, most of them.

[Morph Bark]

If you're taking away magic and turning it into magi-tech (since its machines running on magic) there's a few questions I have before I get long winded. This seems to be focused mostly on arcane magic. Would divine magic be untouched in this particular setting? So clerics still recieved powers from their deity, paladins, so on?

What about druids? Do they still get magicial powers pertaining to nature?

Fluff-wise it may seem more like tied to arcane magic, but I'm not making any large differences between arcane and divine mechanically-speaking. Other than the technology and magic item stuff, magic, both arcane and divine, would otherwise work as normal.

Though I have considered replacing wizards, clerics, druids and all the others with spellshapers. I'm just not familiar enough yet with the fluff and mechanics (beyond the very basic mechanics, that is).

When you say things are still powered by ambient magical energy, do you mean things like the magical elements such as earth, wind, fire, water, electricity, so on.

Well, as said earlier, I meant moreso in the sense of it drawing the energy from magic indirectly, through, for instance, power plants processing the magic energy of the earth or the Primal Temples of my setting into workable energy that can be properly utilized for magic items. Others, like small tools, could perhaps work of ambient magic energy, or the energy of the user, as if the user were the battery of his or her items.

The magic in Ymaggion is in general pretty strongly of an elemental nature though, so yeah, to answer your question: it's possible, or even likely so.

Would you be opposed to many of the monster turned into constucts so that they retain similar functions to their magical counterparts?

Hmmm, that's actually quite a good idea! Honestly, up 'til now I had thought of turning golems into elementals instead and have constructs be actually created technologically rather than magically.

Would you be opposed to people enhancing their bodies in terms of mechanical or ambient magic attunement of some sort?

Not at all. Sounds like some cool new gear. Plus, I like grafts.

Would clerics turn into mechanics for machines? XD

Ha! No. Maybe the clerics of a particular god, but not in general, no. They're not Tech-Priests.

Hmm, D&D with a different setting, no magic, different classes, and different monsters!

Different setting? Not really, since nearly every campaign is a different setting.
No magic? Nope, magic is still there.
Different classes? Yeah, we're using a lot of homebrew.
Different monsters? Only for the higher-leveled ones, which mostly comes down to dragons and elementals.

Honestly, if you're not going to play D&D(which is fine, I play not-D&D all the time), you're gonna have a much easier time using a system that more closely matches what you're trying to do. IE, most of them.

Well that's just logical. If you're going to play a tabletop RPG that isn't DnD, you're going to play a tabletop RPG that isn't DnD.

Most other systems I've checked out for this actually fit it even less. MnM, GURPS and Strands of Fate might come close, but would themselves require homebrewing to fit the exact bill of what I'd like to go for. I'm using DnD because it's the only system that I know (besides Exalted, but I abandoned that because of the combat system).

I have considered other systems though, which is why I started up this thread here to discuss some of the differences between tabletop gaming systems.

[Nepenthe]

Have you looked at Hero System? It seems like it'd work well for this kind of thing.

[Drglenn]

I'm not familiar with WoD's mechanics, but it uses the same Storyteller system that Exalted does, right? I know Exalted, and that one ended up being a hell to GM...

There are some similarities between old World of Darkness (Vampire: the Masquerade etc) and Exalted 2e (Not having played Exalted 1e I can't compare the 2), but there are huge differences (the relative power levels being one)
New World of Darkness (Vampire: the Requiem etc) uses its own unique system, which is much easier to pick up and play than the storyteller system