Relative power levels between tabletop gaming systems

[Morph Bark]

Recently I saw this demotivator in the D&D Demotivators thread [link]:



So I was wondering: how true is this? And how does it hold up when comparing other gaming systems?

One's I'm particularly interested in seeing compared:

• D&D 3.5
• Mutants and Masterminds
• New World of Darkness
• Exalted
• (Strands of) FATE
• Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay
• Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
• 7th Sea
• Dungeon: The Dragoning 40,000 7th Edition

Of course, there are many, many other tabletop gaming systems, but I don't know them all, so feel free to compare to more than just these.

[Eldan]

D&D is a bit special, I think, in that it's powerlevel is very different between classes. Fighters start weak and get stronger, but never really world-breaking. Wizards start with more magic than some systems ever have and only go up from there.

FATE is an interesting case. On the one hand, fate points can do almost anything, but they are a player power, not a character power. The character themselves are competent, but they never get much that enables them to act beyond the local scale.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Eh... FATE is more of a framework than a game system. Fate-based systems can differ from each other much more than, say, d20-based systems do. The framework itself has very few "rules", most of which actually being more suggestions than actual demands. You can talk about existing fate-based systems like the Dresden Files or Diaspora, but you can make one yourself where characters are at any power level you desire without having to make any changes to the framework itself.

[Jack of Spades]

Well, in World of Darkness you start pretty damn weak if you're playing by the book. I'd say that a NWoD mortal starts out quite a bit weaker than in any other game. A starting vampire or werewolf starts out about equal to a level 1 sorcerer in DnD by virtue of the free powers.

But then again, depending on which template you start with, power level is all over the place.

It's something like:
Mortals < Changing Breeds < Werewolves = Vampires < Prometheans < Mages < Fae

Then again, most of that opinion is based on a weird mixture of Old World and New, so I may be horribly wrong.

[SiderealDreams]

Well, in World of Darkness you start pretty damn weak if you're playing by the book. I'd say that a NWoD mortal starts out quite a bit weaker than in any other game. A starting vampire or werewolf starts out about equal to a level 1 sorcerer in DnD by virtue of the free powers.

But then again, depending on which template you start with, power level is all over the place.

It's something like:
Mortals < Changing Breeds < Werewolves = Vampires < Prometheans < Mages < Fae

Then again, most of that opinion is based on a weird mixture of Old World and New, so I may be horribly wrong.

The general consensus on splat power is roughly from bottom to top: mortals-minor templates(some Hunters, ghouls,psychics,etc)-Vampire/Werewolf-Promeatheans-Changelings-Sin-Eaters-Mages.

[Man on Fire]

>Implying Guts wouldn't win.

Also, this thread is bond tu turn into another pointless Cain vs God Emperor debate.

[Mono Vertigo]

Yep, in NWoD, the power levels are quite low. Not helping any, is the fact that many things can and WILL kill you. Fights are meant to be short, few human(oid)s can withstand more than a handful of hits, and firearms are lethal (in every sense). Which is quite realistic.
The most common exceptions to this are werewolves who heal fast enough to prolong combat, and vampires who don't care much about gun wounds (though they have plenty other weaknesses). Oh, and mages. A well-prepared one has a power level much closer to D&D or M&M.
To clarify, in comparison, True Fae (the inhuman antagonists, among which is the strongest being to receive official stats in that system) have a power level that wouldn't be too out of place in Exalted. Tons of health, huge powers, weaknesses that are hard to discover, let alone exploit, and the very fact most of them can afford to be killed once or twice. They're common in that all Changelings personally met them, but very few are meant to even attempt to confront them in any way. Even mages, I think, would have a hard time killing one - temporarily.


Long story short: in NWoD, mortals are pretty much D&D peasants. Unless they get their hands on guns/fire/silver. Everyone else is weak. Except mages. And the True Fae can eat all of those for breakfast (except entities that are too strong to be statted anyway).

[deuterio12]

D&D is a bit special, I think, in that it's powerlevel is very different between classes. Fighters start weak and get stronger, but never really world-breaking. Wizards start with more magic than some systems ever have and only go up from there.

And if you pimped an Hulking Hurler, which isn't even a caster, you could be throwing small planets before epic levels, which is drastically stronger than anything the Hulk has ever acomplished.

[Eldan]

Yup, entirely true. As I said, D&D is all over the map. After all, the benchmark for true brokenness is Pun-pun, the level 1 kobold paladin and greater diety of everything. He could certainly give high level exalts a run for their money. If the rules are read liberally enough, he has such abilities as "Win against exalts [su]" and "Perfect abilities fail automatically in all of creation[ex]"

Side question: who is Guts fighting in that picture, there?

[Friv]

Side question: who is Guts fighting in that picture, there?

Pretty sure that it's the Hulk.

[awa]

dnd is hard
for example personaly I would put connan at roughly level 6ish depending on how you decided to build him. I have also seen a build of him that was level 25.

until pepole decide what hp and so on actually represent you cant make that kind of decsion. Also how do the powers interact does hulk drop instantly to a sudden maximised shivering touch cause he has no spell resistance?

what about a calm emotions hes supertough but hows his will save

[Eldan]

There are a few benchmarks in D&D. We know how much damage weapons do. Skill checks give us more or less a level guideline for various athletes and other professionals. We can compare a few real-life things like weather effects. But yes, it's difficult.

[SiderealDreams]

One of the first memories I had about D&D was having it explained to me the whole "deadly housecats" thing. So yeah I'd say it's all over the place.

[SiderealDreams]

Yep, in NWoD, the power levels are quite low. Not helping any, is the fact that many things can and WILL kill you. Fights are meant to be short, few human(oid)s can withstand more than a handful of hits, and firearms are lethal (in every sense). Which is quite realistic.
The most common exceptions to this are werewolves who heal fast enough to prolong combat, and vampires who don't care much about gun wounds (though they have plenty other weaknesses). Oh, and mages. A well-prepared one has a power level much closer to D&D or M&M.
To clarify, in comparison, True Fae (the inhuman antagonists, among which is the strongest being to receive official stats in that system) have a power level that wouldn't be too out of place in Exalted. Tons of health, huge powers, weaknesses that are hard to discover, let alone exploit, and the very fact most of them can afford to be killed once or twice. They're common in that all Changelings personally met them, but very few are meant to even attempt to confront them in any way. Even mages, I think, would have a hard time killing one - temporarily.


Long story short: in NWoD, mortals are pretty much D&D peasants. Unless they get their hands on guns/fire/silver. Everyone else is weak. Except mages. And the True Fae can eat all of those for breakfast (except entities that are too strong to be statted anyway).

Check out Imperial Mysteries if you get the chance. Though it's doubtful that a number of any game lines are going to get Tier 4 treatments in the sense that Mage and Changeling did.

[Geostationary]

As for high-powered systems, there's also Nobilis, in which the typical Noble is generally around some degree of elder exalt power-wise at any given time, without trying to optimize for a given task. They're also harder to compare because of the peculiarities of how fighting/wounding them works. I'd peg it somewhere on par or above Exalted in terms of power levels, depending on how you figure it.

I'm not too familiar with M&M, but can't that get arbitrarily powerful to a degree, as it is a point-based system?

[Eldan]

One of the first memories I had about D&D was having it explained to me the whole "deadly housecats" thing. So yeah I'd say it's all over the place.

Eh. It assumes that the housecat has murderous intent towards humans and uses its superior stealth to instantly go for the jugular.

Which, honestly, does sound that unlikely. I mean, I imagine a cat hiding in a bush and leaping for your throat would be rather deadly. And how would you defend yourself? By grabbing it and keeping it away from you. Grapple checks. Just as you would in the D&D rules, since cats are tiny.

Mutants and Masterminds can be quite silly. Orat least 2nd edition, which is the one I know, can. It is based off the normal d20 framework, but adds superpowers on top of that. Immortality with no weakness is possible. As is moving faster than light or performing thousands of actions per turn. My mid-level psion could use aircraft carriers as improvised telekinetic bludgeoning weapons, and with a few points more, you can use the moon.

The key to the system is the range/effect/etc. advancement table: abilities scale exponentially as you invest points into them.

[Tvtyrant]

Eh. It assumes that the housecat has murderous intent towards humans and uses its superior stealth to instantly go for the jugular.

Which, honestly, does sound that unlikely. I mean, I imagine a cat hiding in a bush and leaping for your throat would be rather deadly. And how would you defend yourself? By grabbing it and keeping it away from you. Grapple checks. Just as you would in the D&D rules, since cats are tiny.

Mutants and Masterminds can be quite silly. Orat least 2nd edition, which is the one I know, can. It is based off the normal d20 framework, but adds superpowers on top of that. Immortality with no weakness is possible. As is moving faster than light or performing thousands of actions per turn. My mid-level psion could use aircraft carriers as improvised telekinetic bludgeoning weapons, and with a few points more, you can use the moon.

The key to the system is the range/effect/etc. advancement table: abilities scale exponentially as you invest points into them.

If only there was a "punt monster" ability.

[awa]

also i think that poster (not the thread poster) is frankly wrong. With out abusing the system (wich is exponetionaly more breakable then dnd) an epic level wizard is hardly a begining charecter in mutants and masterminds.
just like with dnd example i have seen power level 10 superman builds and I have seen power level 45 superman builds. the power level of mutants and masterminds is even harder to pin down than dnd you could make a charecter strong enough to throw a planet but to weak to grapple a house cat.

[Beleriphon]

also i think that poster (not the thread poster) is frankly wrong. With out abusing the system (wich is exponetionaly more breakable then dnd) an epic level wizard is hardly a begining charecter in mutants and masterminds.

Its a bit closer than hardly being comparable. If you wanted to keep things roughly comparable a starting PL10 150point M&M character is certainly comparable to a 14th or 15th level D&D character in terms of what they can accomplish on an individual scale. As it stands though its actually trivially easy to build powers that can nuke planets using a PL1 character.

If you use all 150 of your power points at PL10 you can make a character that is completely immune to all damage. For considerably fewer points you can also restore the dead to life, so I'd say its a pretty reasonable comparison given the types of effects that easily attainable.

just like with dnd example i have seen power level 10 superman builds and I have seen power level 45 superman builds. the power level of mutants and masterminds is even harder to pin down than dnd you could make a charecter strong enough to throw a planet but to weak to grapple a house cat.

This is true, and very funny.

[awa]

remember a 17 level wizard is vastly more powerful then a 16th level one that's when you get the real broken stuff like shape-change and wish and gate to name a few.

[Mono Vertigo]

Check out Imperial Mysteries if you get the chance. Though it's doubtful that a number of any game lines are going to get Tier 4 treatments in the sense that Mage and Changeling did.

Oh, yeah, forgot about the archmages and such because I don't have the books, sorry.
So yeah, OP, these guys don't eat everyone else for breakfast, they only turn them into lawn chairs and sit in them to perfect their tan after chaining the sun's power.
Duels between them and the True Fae should still be very interesting to watch.

[Razanir]

Yup, entirely true. As I said, D&D is all over the map. After all, the benchmark for true brokenness is Pun-pun, the level 1 kobold paladin and greater diety of everything. He could certainly give high level exalts a run for their money. If the rules are read liberally enough, he has such abilities as "Win against exalts [su]" and "Perfect abilities fail automatically in all of creation[ex]"

One of the first memories I had about D&D was having it explained to me the whole "deadly housecats" thing. So yeah I'd say it's all over the place.

Commoner 1 < Housecats < Any 3.5e PC class 1 < Any 4e class 1 < Pun-Pun

No seriously. I used an online character generator for 4e once, just to see what characters were like. Without even trying, I gave my level 1 4e wizard more health than a level 1 3.5e barbarian optimized for hp

[Eldan]

You can't really compare HP 1:1 across systems. 4E is too different from 3.5 to just say HP=HP. As a rule of thumb, I'd say characters are certainly tougher, though, unless the 3.5 one is very optimized for durability (i.e. you are playing the Ikea tarrasque lite). Some 3.5 spells are much stronger, powerwise, but 4E gives everyone at will abilities. And so on.

The 4E optimization floor is higher. But it is also almost touching the optimization roof, while in 3.5, the sky isn't the limit.

[Eldan]

You can't really compare HP 1:1 across systems. 4E is too different from 3.5 to just say HP=HP. As a rule of thumb, I'd say characters are certainly tougher, though, unless the 3.5 one is very optimized for durability (i.e. you are playing the Ikea tarrasque lite). Some 3.5 spells are much stronger, powerwise, but 4E gives everyone at will abilities. And so on.

The 4E optimization floor is higher. But it is also almost touching the optimization roof, while in 3.5, the sky isn't the limit.

[Eldan]

You can't really compare HP 1:1 across systems. 4E is too different from 3.5 to just say HP=HP. As a rule of thumb, I'd say characters are certainly tougher, though, unless the 3.5 one is very optimized for durability (i.e. you are playing the Ikea tarrasque lite). Some 3.5 spells are much stronger, powerwise, but 4E gives everyone at will abilities. And so on.

The 4E optimization floor is higher. But it is also almost touching the optimization roof, while in 3.5, the sky isn't the limit.

[Morty]

Commoner 1 < Housecats < Any 3.5e PC class 1 < Any 4e class 1 < Pun-Pun

No seriously. I used an online character generator for 4e once, just to see what characters were like. Without even trying, I gave my level 1 4e wizard more health than a level 1 3.5e barbarian optimized for hp

I hope you realize that the scale of hitpoints in 4th edition is much higher. It's like comparing a White Wolf game to D&D and claiming everyone is handicapped and mentally challenged because the average score is 2.

[Morph Bark]

As for high-powered systems, there's also Nobilis, in which the typical Noble is generally around some degree of elder exalt power-wise at any given time, without trying to optimize for a given task. They're also harder to compare because of the peculiarities of how fighting/wounding them works. I'd peg it somewhere on par or above Exalted in terms of power levels, depending on how you figure it.

Wow, even higher than Exalted?

I'm also now reminded of Scion, where you play the descendant of a god. I imagine the power level in that game is similarly high?

also i think that poster (not the thread poster) is frankly wrong. With out abusing the system (wich is exponetionaly more breakable then dnd) an epic level wizard is hardly a begining charecter in mutants and masterminds.

Well, here you're comparing Epic Wizards to M&M characters, but what about Epic Tier 3-or-lower D&D characters?

[Totally Guy]

Somebody needs to make the Axe Cop roleplaying game so that the characters can start at the highest possible level of power.

[Knaight]

Well, here you're comparing Epic Wizards to M&M characters, but what about Epic Tier 3-or-lower D&D characters?

It depends on the M&M character. If you go for a martial artist archetype with relatively subdued powers, the D&D level and PL are actually fairly similar, with D&D level gradually outpacing PL. If you go with a flying, rock solid, blast heavy character, an epic low tier character will probably be outpaced in the mid teens of PL.

[Giarc]

I'm also now reminded of Scion, where you play the descendant of a god. I imagine the power level in that game is similarly high?

In Scion, players start out a bit weaker than exalts at Hero, but become more powerful by Demigod and vastly more powerful by God. At the height of power, they can use ultimate attributes which can do things like knock anybody down to incapacitated with a single blow or crack open the crust of the world. And then there are the Avatar powers of the various purviews they can get access to where they BECOME said purview. At that point, everything they do actually becomes a narrative effect.