DM's block and a slightly problematic player

[Talon Sky]

Been a long time since I posted, but I finally have some stable internet. In my downtime....I started playing Star Wars Saga and I've come to a mental roadblock. Because the players are attempting to take over a Star Destroyer and it was completely unexpected >.<

Alright, a bit of background. The players are all level 9, and there are three active players now....one of whom is the source of a bit of frustration for me. Anyways, one of the characters is what I refer to as a Force-Canon; she's a powerful neutral-Force user. Her Use The Force skill is super high, but otherwise she's pretty well balanced. The second character is a Deathwatch Bunker Mandalorian, more based on Boba Fett than anything else. Typical solider really, good in armor and with big guns and the like.

Then....there's the other Mandalorian, who's been giving me headaches in trying to challenge the party since the beginning of the game. His character is super optimized on defense. It's literally all this character is, a massively high reflex save. His fortitude isn't bad either, and his will is okay....and he also has a feat that gives him +5 to all saves vs. Force users. Not that big of a hurdle, but it's annoying sometimes. Anyways, my issue with this character in particular is my inability to....well, do much of anything to him. Short of a nat 20, most things can not hit him. His character's defense is that ridiculous, but it's all legit. He also has the Evasion feat, so area-attacks aren't the way to go.

The players are all in the Force Unleashed timeline, and I've done all I can to instill a fear of the Empire and the fact that the players shouldn't cross them arbitrarily. But because of this one character being nigh invincible, they continually piss all over the Empire's doorstep. Yes, it put the other characters in danger, but the Mandalorian will pretty much survive anything I throw at him. At the end of last session, the PCs ended up on a Star Destroyer with the mission of retrieving the spice shipment Han Solo abandoned. They were all in agreement of sneaking through it, until the super-character declared he was going to take it over.

I have no doubt he could, too. It seems like nothing I can throw at him, even in mass numbers, can be a threat....let alone a challenge. Even the strongest Stormtrooper could only hit him on a nat 20....the player has proved this before when he killed everyone in an Imperial garrison. Single-handed. Just to show he could do it. Yeah, he took a bit of damage, but it was absolutely nothing to him. And in my mind, there's no WAY a single soldier should be able to take on fifty something soldiers in an open firefight and walk away. Crappy stormtroopers or not.

So I guess I'm asking for general advice on how to challenge the party....anything strong enough to challenge the Mandalorian will wipe the rest of the party, and anything that could challenge the rest of the party will be steamrolled by this character in 1-2 rounds. I'm also asking for advice on how to make this Star Destroyer 'dungeon' interesting.

[ThiagoMartell]

What about gas grenades and poisoned drinks?

[Talon Sky]

What about gas grenades and poisoned drinks?

I should have mentioned above that his Mechanics and Medicine skills are as maxed as they can be.

His Mandalorian armor, which he went out of his way to get the best version and then upgrade as high as he could with a massive Mechanics skill, is vacuum-sealed with 24 hours of life support. So gas grenades are out....he lives by the Mando'a creed of never removing armor except to bathe, too.

As far as poison drinks, that could work if the Empire sent an assassin after him. It would take a good poison to overcome that fortitude of his, but I suppose it could be done. He'd take care of it with his Medicine skill pretty quickly, but it might be a minor annoyance :p

[hamlet]

Wait . . .

They're on a Death Star, one of those things the size of a moon, filled with tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of heavily armed troops. That floats through space. How are they trying to take it over with just a few folks?

Aren't the bad guys in control of 99.99% of the thing? Yeah, might be bad to run a frontal assault, but have the bad guy engineers seal off the area where the good guys are and then vent the atmosphere in it. Problem solves itself.

Or, if you dont' want to TPK the party, grenades can be your friend. Or just pump knock-out gas into the place for upwards of 24 hours. I'm sure that the bad guys can figure out when the good guys stop moving, even if it takes longer than expected.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm not very familiar with the system, but would it be possible to stat out larger units of soldiers as single creatures? I've done so in D&D and Mutants and Masterminds, and it lets large numbers of minions remain a challenge at higher levels. (It also makes it much easier to run large battles).

Apart from that... talk to the player. Tell him that you're having trouble dealing with his character, and ask him to tone it down a little bit for the good of the narrative?

[Maquise]

Send Darth Vader after him.

He doesn't actually need to fight them, just appear. I'm not that familiar with SAGA, but if I were playing, that's all it would take to scare me straight.

[Talon Sky]

Wait . . .

They're on a Death Star, one of those things the size of a moon, filled with tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of heavily armed troops. That floats through space. How are they trying to take it over with just a few folks?

Aren't the bad guys in control of 99.99% of the thing? Yeah, might be bad to run a frontal assault, but have the bad guy engineers seal off the area where the good guys are and then vent the atmosphere in it. Problem solves itself.

Or, if you dont' want to TPK the party, grenades can be your friend. Or just pump knock-out gas into the place for upwards of 24 hours. I'm sure that the bad guys can figure out when the good guys stop moving, even if it takes longer than expected.

They're on a Star Destroyer....the Imperial standard capital ship, not the Death Star.

"Join the Empire! Our ships are triangles!"

I like the idea of venting off the atmosphere of the area, but it still wouldn't do much to the problem player (vacuum-sealed armor with 24 hour life support) aside from now being the only player alive. At least the Force-user would have to spend a Force point/Destiny point to stay alive in space....this happened before, I jokingly portrayed it as her going into the Avatar state :p

I'm not very familiar with the system, but would it be possible to stat out larger units of soldiers as single creatures? I've done so in D&D and Mutants and Masterminds, and it lets large numbers of minions remain a challenge at higher levels. (It also makes it much easier to run large battles).

Apart from that... talk to the player. Tell him that you're having trouble dealing with his character, and ask him to tone it down a little bit for the good of the narrative?

That might be a....really damn good idea, actually. Mass numbers is what the Empire has. So, instead of 20 worthless stormtroopers who individually can't be a threat, make them all a single stat block? I don't know if there's a rule for that in this system, how do you go about doing that in D&D?

Send Darth Vader after him.

He doesn't actually need to fight them, just appear. I'm not that familiar with SAGA, but if I were playing, that's all it would take to scare me straight.

I actually intend to a little later on. The problem I have with Vader's stat block is the same issue I have with most enemies in Star Wars Saga....he seems put together strange. He is, I believe, CR 19, and already I look at his attack bonus and Use The Force bonus and I know he couldn't win against this freaking level 9 character. Oh, he'd do damage and be deadly to everyone else, but I'm fairly certain the Mandalorian would eventually get him out of sheer tenacity. High HP, lightsaber-resistant armor, and a stupid high reflex would save him.

I fully intend on redoing Vader's stats before the players encounter him, or at least add +10 to everything he does. I had to do that with Mara Jade a few sessions back, she at least hit the Mandalorian before toying mercilessly with the other PCs lol.

[Lazy Bum]

I'm not very familiar with the system, but would it be possible to stat out larger units of soldiers as single creatures?

That's one solution, using the mass combat rules in the Clone Wars book.

Apart from that... talk to the player. Tell him that you're having trouble dealing with his character, and ask him to tone it down a little bit for the good of the narrative?

That's a better solution.

I have no doubt he could, too. It seems like nothing I can throw at him, even in mass numbers, can be a threat....let alone a challenge. Even the strongest Stormtrooper could only hit him on a nat 20....the player has proved this before when he killed everyone in an Imperial garrison. Single-handed. Just to show he could do it. Yeah, he took a bit of damage, but it was absolutely nothing to him. And in my mind, there's no WAY a single soldier should be able to take on fifty something soldiers in an open firefight and walk away. Crappy stormtroopers or not.

How is he being "overpowered" as an armour-wearer in SAGA? Armour is a chump choice after level 8 or so. Can you post up or recall his character build?

Regardless, a horde of Storm/Naval troopers with auto fire weapons should sort him out. Even if he's only taking half damage from each autofire attack, he's only got so much HP.

[Talon Sky]

That's one solution, using the mass combat rules in the Clone Wars book.

That's a better solution.



How is he being "overpowered" as an armour-wearer in SAGA? Armour is a chump choice after level 8 or so. Can you post up or recall his character build?

Regardless, a horde of Storm/Naval troopers with auto fire weapons should sort him out. Even if he's only taking half damage from each autofire attack, he's only got so much HP.

I apparently need to research this rule :p

He took a Soldier/Mandalorian feat, I forget what it's called exactly. But it allows him to add his level and half his armor bonus, or vise versa as I'm at my college campus right now and don't have his sheet on hand. Either way, it's a good damn feat for someone in armor to have.

And on autofire attacks, characters with evasion take half-damage from a successful area-effect hit, and none if it misses. Evasion is balls-out broken, always take a level in Scout for it! :p

[Ranting Fool]

Just a thought, but if an unstoppable solider is walking through a very large triangle type ship slowly crushing everything he comes across with no chance of the crew defending against him in a fight.

Wouldn't the crew try one of these tactics?

Seal the threat: Can Star Destroyers chuck down massive blast doors for a large chunk of the ship (Of course leaving all the crew and soldiers to die)

Vent them into space: Not just taking away the air but making a big vacuum sucking everything out into space (along with lots of crew ect) or do the players have boots that make them stick?

Time to abandon ship! We can't beat him! Lets run and set the self destruct!

[Talon Sky]

Just a thought, but if an unstoppable solider is walking through a very large triangle type ship slowly crushing everything he comes across with no chance of the crew defending against him in a fight.

Wouldn't the crew try one of these tactics?

Seal the threat: Can Star Destroyers chuck down massive blast doors for a large chunk of the ship (Of course leaving all the crew and soldiers to die)

Vent them into space: Not just taking away the air but making a big vacuum sucking everything out into space (along with lots of crew ect) or do the players have boots that make them stick?

Time to abandon ship! We can't beat him! Lets run and set the self destruct!

Ah, yes. Self-destruct will be how I keep the players from getting ahold of one of the strongest ships in the game :D

As far as sealing them off or venting them into space, I plan on doing one or both but I feel like it'll only slow them down. Which is fine, that's a worthy challenge. The two Mandalorians can totally survive space, and the Force-user can by, well....using the Force for a bit. As far as sealing them off, they'd eventually blast through....but this gives the Empire more time to figure out how to stop them. I like it :p

[Squark]

Aid another stacks, if memory serves. So, several Storm troopers working in tandem should be able to reduce his reflex defense down to a managable level. Also, the Clone wars campaign guide had rules for squads as a single enemy.

Lastly, nothings to stop you from re-optimizing Vader's stats.

But yeah, first thing to do is talk to the player.

[Hazzardevil]

Wait . . .

They're on a Death Star, one of those things the size of a moon, filled with tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of heavily armed troops. That floats through space. How are they trying to take it over with just a few folks?

No, their taking over a large star cruiser, one of these:

Spoiler

Show

Only has a few thousand men on it, a few hundred if you play star wars battlefront 2.

Apart from that... talk to the player. Tell him that you're having trouble dealing with his character, and ask him to tone it down a little bit for the good of the narrative?

Seriously, do this, perhaps ask him to make a new sheet? Keep the character but he has new mechanics.

[Actana]

If I recall correctly, standard stormtroopers automatically succeed in aiding another with a ranged attack. An easy and effective solution is to have a few harder enemies with stormtroopers backing them up, effectively stacking loads of +2 bonuses from the aid action. The bonus given is typed so it stacks too. I've found it the primary way to make lower level mooks relevant at higher levels. You need to be point blank to automatically succeed in aiding, but it's not hard, given the overly long ranges of weapons in SWSE anyway.

Failing that, they're in a Star Destroyer. Have them enter a cargo bay. Whoops, there are suddenly hundreds of stormtroopers there. And at least a few of them will roll a 20. Will likely feel very cheap, and I'd endorse the former option of aid actions over rolling a ton of dice.

[Squark]

Actually, since aid another in saga can be used to penalize an enemy... All you need is a few storm troopers each giving the player a -2 penalty to reflex defense, and you're golden. But, like people have been saying, talking it out first is important.

[Actana]

Actually, since aid another in saga can be used to penalize an enemy... All you need is a few storm troopers each giving the player a -2 penalty to reflex defense, and you're golden. But, like people have been saying, talking it out first is important.

Actually, it's a bonus or penalty to attack, depending on whether it's an enemy or ally. Have my book in front of me. +2 to skill/ability check, +2 to attack for a single ally or -2 to attack for a single enemy. All are untyped bonuses.

[Talon Sky]

Hmm, I like that idea. A lot. So essentially, a stormtrooper commander and a squad of, say 10 stormtroopers would play out as the commander having +20 to all his attacks while the other troopers aided him? I'll need to look that rule up in the corebook when I get home. Does that comsume the entire turn of the stormtroopers or is it a penalty to their own attacks?

I also really need to look up the rule about squads as single enemies. That'll make more sense, since....you know, I believe the total count of troopers and marines aboard your average Star Destroyer is around 2000 lol.

Edit: We have talked it out a bit. I feel like he shouldn't have to redo his character, simply because everything he's done works legitimately within the system. I just feel like the Star Wars Saga system never took into account players who would totally and completely optimize their characters at the cost of bad narrative. The game wants to play out in a sort of....cinematic way.

Another thing is my friend is REALLY attached to his Mandalorian, all the players in this game are. It's been extremely fun, but it's reaching a point where the players aren't being challenged much aside from Mara Jade a few sessions back, and one encounter where they fought nano-driven space zombies ala the Borg. And that was because they got separated. Coincidentally, nanobot-infected space zombies apparently really were a thing in canon, during this exact time period. I had no idea until a few weeks after the players encountered them. XD

[Lazy Bum]

What level is the party?
Disregard, I am blind

[Actana]

Hmm, I like that idea. A lot. So essentially, a stormtrooper commander and a squad of, say 10 stormtroopers would play out as the commander having +10 to all his attacks while the other troopers aided him? I'll need to look that rule up in the corebook when I get home. Does that comsume the entire turn of the stormtroopers or is it a penalty to their own attacks?

+20 actually. +2 from one source. Aiding another is a standard action, and requires an attack roll against a Reflex defence of 10. Stormtroopers have the Coordinated Attack feat, which allows them to automatically succeed in aiding an attack at point blank range (as far as I can tell stormtroopers are made for aiding others. That's why they never hit anyone in the movies!). Deals no damage of their own though. You might want to find the highest damaging weapon for the commander, just to make a point before he eventually goes down in a focused barrage from the PCs. Better yet, make it a mountable weapon so that the next shmuck can just man it and start firing again.

[Talon Sky]

What level is the party?

Level 9, with a level 8 Bothan spy and a level 8 assassin droid that are being DM-NPCed until their players return.

+20 actually. +2 from one source. Aiding another is a standard action, and requires an attack roll against a Reflex defence of 10. Stormtroopers have the Coordinated Attack feat, which allows them to automatically succeed in aiding an attack at point blank range (as far as I can tell stormtroopers are made for aiding others. That's why they never hit anyone in the movies!). Deals no damage of their own though. You might want to find the highest damaging weapon for the commander, just to make a point before he eventually goes down in a focused barrage from the PCs. Better yet, make it a mountable weapon so that the next shmuck can just man it and start firing again.

Oooooooo.....see that? You and me, we's best friends now XD Oh, the Force-user will probably crush the E-web turret before too long, but the look on their faces will be grand indeed.

[Actana]

Oooooooo.....see that? You and me, we's best friends now XD Oh, the Force-user will probably crush the E-web turret before too long, but the look on their faces will be grand indeed.

Only if he can get in range. I find that the ranges of Force powers can get quite limited in combat situations. 6 squares range? I'm sorry, I can't hear you from 50 squares away. And that's just point blank.

[Lazy Bum]

A level 9 party should be able to chew through the crew of a Star Destroyer with relative ease. (If I'd read the OP properly, I would have opened with this.)

3 AT-STs are supposed to be a level-appropriate encounter for these guys. They are supposed to be running round with blaster cannons, missile launchers, thermal detonators and sooped-up rifles/pistols. Taking over a Star Destroyer is actually way below level appropriate for them because there's nothing on there above CL 5 or so.


So my advice is to just let him do it. Just tell him his character kills everyone on board and that they all level up.

Only when he's agreed to that do you point out that they need tens of thousands of crew to fly it. And that there are undoubtably Imperial ships responding to the Star Destroyer's distress signals. And that they should probably plan next time.

[Sipex]

I'm supporting the 'aid another' idea, it sounds completely viable and could easily represent the storm trooper's tactics. The mooks are providing cover fire and such for the boss, forcing the mandalorian to dodge just how the big guy needs him to, then the boss sweeps in and takes his shot.

Also, it sounds like he could hold off a squad of soldiers if postioned right, maybe take advantage of this. Maybe the PCs need to do some task in a limited amount of time (Reverse the atmosphere venting for example) but they're being assaulted by squads of stormtroopers at the same time. Now your Mandalorian gets to shine, putting him in a situation where you want him to make use of his survivability.

[Anxe]

I have used aid another in my D&D 3.5 campaign to make low level mooks into a threat as well. The players focused on the big bad dude who was getting all the bonuses. Fortunately, some of the mooks were aiding his defense as well. The bad guy became a recurring villain that the players are still a little scared of. Since it has worked well for me, I second (third? Nth?) that you use it as well.

[RandomLunatic]

+20 actually. +2 from one source. Aiding another is a standard action, and requires an attack roll against a Reflex defence of 10. Stormtroopers have the Coordinated Attack feat, which allows them to automatically succeed in aiding an attack at point blank range (as far as I can tell stormtroopers are made for aiding others. That's why they never hit anyone in the movies!). Deals no damage of their own though. You might want to find the highest damaging weapon for the commander, just to make a point before he eventually goes down in a focused barrage from the PCs. Better yet, make it a mountable weapon so that the next shmuck can just man it and start firing again.

This gets better too. Add in an Imperial Officer to use Coordinate on them to make the aid another bonus +3. Then put it all together and you have...

Standard Imperial doctrine deploys Stormtroopers in 8-man squads. Split these squads into a pair of four-man fire teams, each consisting of a three regular and one heavy Stormtrooper. Two such squads, plus an Imperial Officer to lead them, comes to CL 9. Also, instead of Trust, give the officer a second instance of Coordinate. The officer uses Born Leader, then hides in back and uses Coordinate every turn, and the troopers either support their fire team's heavy, or an entire squad throws its support behind one of its heavies. The net result is either four attacks at +19, or two attacks at +35, each dealing 5d8+1 damage. This is likely to put a big dent in your PC's sense of invulnerability.

To be really mean, upgrade the heavy troopers's wimpy light repeaters to repeating carbines (KoTOR) or heavy assault blasters (Legacy), upping the damage to 5d10+1.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Standard Imperial doctrine deploys Stormtroopers in 8-man squads. Split these squads into a pair of four-man fire teams, each consisting of a three regular and one heavy Stormtrooper. Two such squads, plus an Imperial Officer to lead them, comes to CL 9. Also, instead of Trust, give the officer a second instance of Coordinate. The officer uses Born Leader, then hides in back and uses Coordinate every turn, and the troopers either support their fire team's heavy, or an entire squad throws its support behind one of its heavies. The net result is either four attacks at +19, or two attacks at +35, each dealing 5d8+1 damage. This is likely to put a big dent in your PC's sense of invulnerability.

Actually, stormtroopers come in 9-man squads, 8 standard troopers and one sergeant. That means your proposed two-squad setup would have two officers instead of one, giving you a second officer to use for more offense, more defense, positioning your main shooters, or whatever else works.

[Ranting Fool]

I have used aid another in my D&D 3.5 campaign to make low level mooks into a threat as well. The players focused on the big bad dude who was getting all the bonuses. Fortunately, some of the mooks were aiding his defense as well. The bad guy became a recurring villain that the players are still a little scared of. Since it has worked well for me, I second (third? Nth?) that you use it as well.

Same, also I just used the "Mob" template for little undead. Gives the players some feel or risk when being outnumbered 100-1 and makes hordes of monsters viable without having to roll a huge amount of dice

[GM.Casper]

They cant take over a Destroyer anyway. They have 37 000 crew. Even if the players have the skills to pilot the ship, they cant fight or do any maintenance without a large crew. And they cant kill all those crewmen- they would run out of ammo and stamina after the first thousand.

Use poison gas/vacuum to split the team. Once the Mandalorian is alone, sic some Sith at him.

[JustIgnoreMe]

I remember, from a long time ago (pre-2000), a Dragon Magazine forum letter with exactly the same problem. Many solutions were proposed, most of them similar to the ones listed above. There are a few that haven't been mentioned yet though, mostly less "how do I hurt him?" and more "how do I challenge him?"

If you make it all about attack rolls, AC and damage, that's playing to his strengths. While that's ok sometimes, for a character to be challenged you sometimes need to go after their weaknesses.

Social: I can't imagine many peeple want to talk to a Mandalorian who always wears his battle-armour. Going to a social function? Not likely. Have to talk to the head of a cartel? Not in that get-up.

Environment: quicksand and rubble to trap him, freezing cold after immersion in water to freeze him, electrical storms (the lightning isn't going to miss).

And my personal favourite?

Magnets. Giant electro-magnets. See Robocop for further details.

[AgentofHellfire]

Does the character have any loved ones, or people he cares about?

Have the Empire go after them once he screws up.