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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Use of Antimagic Shackles

    BoED has Antimagic Shackles (AMS): "These adamantine manacles fit any Small to Large creature and create an antimagic field to a radius of 5 feet when they are fastened." This has various tactical possibilities that I would like to understand the validity of within the rules.

    Note that 5' radius = 4 adjacent squares.

    (a) Is AMS a slotted item?
    (b) Does AMS need to be fastened to someone to be active?
    (c) If an AMS is either fastened to a wrist or held in the hand, can reach be used to center the AMS so that the body is not inside the generated AMF?
    (d) Can AMS be hurled as an improvised thrown weapon?

    My understanding at the moment:
    (a) No. Evidence is provided by "Shackles of Silence" in MIC which take no body slot.
    (b) No. Shackles can be fastened without fitting to anything.
    (c) Yes, as an attack or a move action (including full attack).
    (d) Yes, as an improvised one handed thrown weapon (range 10', standard action), since a weight of 5lbs is very similar to other one handed weapons.

    Is this understanding correct or wrong? If so, where and why?

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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Within the Custom Item rules, they're about the same price as a continuous AMF.

    a) I don't think so. Wearing Gloves of Dexterity should not prevent Antimagic Shackles from functioning. Shackles do not occupy a body slot.

    b) I'm AFB now, but I'll check this one in my copy of BoED.

    c) By RAW, a weapon remains in your space as long as you hold it. Regardless, any part of your body still within the radius would still be affected, or your 10ft pole, or whatever you're using to extend it. Human arms are only like 3ft long, so this shouldn't work by RAI either. You can drop it into an adjacent space as a free action.

    d) Anything you can carry can be an improvised thrown weapon, including Antimagic Shackles. Hence the term "improvised". They're quite expensive to be tossing around without guaranteed retrieval, though.

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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    fas·ten
    verb
    to attach firmly or securely in place; fix securely to something else.
    Shackles that are merely closed are not fastened to anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Why do you think throwing them will affect the target? If you toss your handcuffs at a fleeing felon, does he automatically become restrained? More likely, you'll just bonk him in the head and have to go pick them up, if you hit at all. They're not a pair of bolas or a net.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Why do you think throwing them will affect the target? If you toss your handcuffs at a fleeing felon, does he automatically become restrained? More likely, you'll just bonk him in the head and have to go pick them up, if you hit at all. They're not a pair of bolas or a net.
    I don't think he's suggesting using the shackles as shackles from a distance but rather using them as an-object-which-continuously-emanates-a-5-foot-anti-magic-field.
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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Quote Originally Posted by hewhosaysfish View Post
    I don't think he's suggesting using the shackles as shackles from a distance but rather using them as an-object-which-continuously-emanates-a-5-foot-anti-magic-field.
    Except RAW, they only activate when fastened. So simply tossing them at people is pointless.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    Within the Custom Item rules, they're about the same price as a continuous AMF.
    Right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    c) By RAW, a weapon remains in your space as long as you hold it.
    Citation? This seems completely implausible to me, because it says fights between adjacent opponents consist of displays of fighting prowess not actually hitting anyone yet somehow inflicting hp damage. Some evidence against: the AntiMagic section in Rules Compendium says:
    "A magic weapon ... used to attack a creature inside an antimagic area, gains none of the benefits of its magic properties."

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    Human arms are only like 3ft long, so this shouldn't work by RAI either.
    I'm thinking about a "long arm" graft, which yields a 10' reach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Shackles that are merely closed are not fastened to anything.
    (a) I disagree in the sense that it's not crazy to say "I fasten my watchband to itself".
    (b) If that isn't convincing, assume I fasten it to a short 1" diameter stick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Except RAW, they only activate when fastened. So simply tossing them at people is pointless.
    I'm presuming that your interpretation is addressed by either (a) or (b). If not, please explain.

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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    I'm presuming that your interpretation is addressed by either (a) or (b). If not, please explain.
    By RAW, they only "fit any Small to Large creature." fastening them to sticks, themselves, a statute etc. would not work, even if it's something that should logically be the right size.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    By RAW, they only "fit any Small to Large creature." fastening them to sticks, themselves, a statute etc. would not work, even if it's something that should logically be the right size.
    RAW says it fits small to large creatures, but that does not exclude the possibility of fitting a stick of halfling arm diameter. Similarly, when I say "my watch fits on my arm", that doesn't mean that it doesn't fit on your arm.

    In fact "fits small" implies that it fits a stick of halfling arm diameter.

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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Yes, but a stick is not a creature. If you're going to exploit RAW, you open yourself up to it being used against you as well.

    To use their field, you need to fasten them; to fasten them, you need a Small or Medium creature to fit them to.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    If AMF shackles could be moved out to a square within reach, then any creature wearing them could just hold them out and suddenly not be affected by them. Which would make using them against the very people they're presumably designed to contain, spellcasters, pointless. They could simply hold them out and teleport away.

    Also, fitting sticks is irrelevant due to the shackles explicitly saying they work on creatures. Creatures, in D&D, are anything with a wisdom score, so sticks wouldn't work. This is the same reason disintegrate cannot affect living trees by RAW.
    Last edited by Hirax; 2012-09-14 at 09:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    you could wear them, and then become a grappling monk..

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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Toss them on a Halfling Monk, and then toss the Halfling? I mean, use the Halfling as a ranged weapon?

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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Use Animate Object on several pair and send them out to grapple casters in groups. Or give them to a Justiciar.
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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    If AMF shackles could be moved out to a square within reach, then any creature wearing them could just hold them out and suddenly not be affected by them.
    I expect this would depend on how the shackling is done. Think about handcuffs. There are very ineffective ways to use handcuffs, like applying both ends to the same wrist. Similarly, there are effective ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    They could simply hold them out and teleport away.
    Ouch! With a bad shackling, either (a) arm is left behind by teleporting or (b) nothing happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    Also, fitting sticks is irrelevant due to the shackles explicitly saying they work on creatures.
    In general english, "fit" is just not the same concept as "exclusively fit". A fits B does not imply that A does not fit C.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    To use their field, you need to fasten them; to fasten them, you need a Small or Medium creature to fit them to.
    A fits B does not imply that A does not fit C. That's just not the way english works.

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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    A fits B does not imply that A does not fit C. That's just not the way english works.
    "X fits creatures = X fits objects" is not the way RAW works.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    I expect this would depend on how the shackling is done. Think about handcuffs. There are very ineffective ways to use handcuffs, like applying both ends to the same wrist. Similarly, there are effective ways.



    Ouch! With a bad shackling, either (a) arm is left behind by teleporting or (b) nothing happens.



    In general english, "fit" is just not the same concept as "exclusively fit". A fits B does not imply that A does not fit C.



    A fits B does not imply that A does not fit C. That's just not the way english works.
    Either demonstrate incontrovertible rules citations that there's a RAW way to do what you want to do, or else everyone is probably going to side with the interpretation that doesn't make the shackles useless. Either they can be held out as far as a creature's reach, in which case for prisoners they're useless, or they can't. Your invented distinction means nothing, there's no RAW check or method to see whether they're "effectively" shackled. There is no such thing as a partial teleport. If there is not an AMF in your square, then you can teleport out (or shapechange if you're a lycanthrope), and take your entire body with you, there's no RAW support for your claim of an arm being left behind. Also, your last sentence is flatly untrue in this context. This all smacks of wishful thinking, you don't get to invent or extend existing rules into spaces where there are none just because you think it makes sense to do so. Edit: Why fuss over putting them on a stick, anyway? Toss a halfling wearing them instead, or a dog. In fact, a dog would be your best option, because they're loyal and trainable. You could train it to follow whoever it's thrown at.
    Last edited by Hirax; 2012-09-15 at 01:23 PM.

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    Thumbs down Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    The Antimagic Shackles from BoED are a poor choice to keep a spellcaster bound. You can get out with a DC 27 Escape Artist check. (In comparison, standard manacles are DC 30, while masterwork manacles are DC 35.) For their price and being made out of adamantine, I'd expect Antimagic Shackles would be at least DC 35 if not 40.

    You can make a DC 27 Escape Artist check with DEX 20, a mere 2 ranks in Escape Artist, and taking 20. Since a check only takes 1 minute, if the BBEG ever uses Antimagic Shackles on you and walks away from the dungeon laughing, in 20 minutes you've escaped and are bringing him to justice.

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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser1 View Post
    The Antimagic Shackles from BoED are a poor choice to keep a spellcaster bound. You can get out with a DC 27 Escape Artist check. (In comparison, standard manacles are DC 30, while masterwork manacles are DC 35.) For their price and being made out of adamantine, I'd expect Antimagic Shackles would be at least DC 35 if not 40.

    You can make a DC 27 Escape Artist check with DEX 20, a mere 2 ranks in Escape Artist, and taking 20. Since a check only takes 1 minute, if the BBEG ever uses Antimagic Shackles on you and walks away from the dungeon laughing, in 20 minutes you've escaped and are bringing him to justice.
    He isn't trying to keep a spellcaster bound. He is wearing them like a slotless item of AMF.
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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Come to think, I'm not sure I'd freely grant that AMF shackles are slotless. Intuitively they'd be a wrist item, and it was a later formatting decision in 3.5 to specifically list what slot (if any) a magic item used. In the DMG, for instance, wondrous items items don't specify the slot they use, due to the fact that it's generally obvious. This appears to be the case in the BoED too. The shackles in the MIC could just as easily be an anomaly, rather than following some sort of precedent. I'm not willing to cast judgment one way or the other on this one.

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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser1 View Post
    You can make a DC 27 Escape Artist check with DEX 20, a mere 2 ranks in Escape Artist, and taking 20. Since a check only takes 1 minute, if the BBEG ever uses Antimagic Shackles on you and walks away from the dungeon laughing, in 20 minutes you've escaped and are bringing him to justice.
    I'm aware that the shackles are quite expensive and mostly for higher-level play, but do your wizards routinely have 20 dex and cross-class skill ranks in escape artist?

    Also, if the shackles must be worn to be active, it might behoove you to find some way to obtain a monk's Unarmed damage progression so that you can just kick people instead. You'll be like Cody from Street Fighter.
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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    BoED has Antimagic Shackles (AMS): "These adamantine manacles fit any Small to Large creature and create an antimagic field to a radius of 5 feet when they are fastened." This has various tactical possibilities that I would like to understand the validity of within the rules.

    Note that 5' radius = 4 adjacent squares.

    (a) Is AMS a slotted item?
    (b) Does AMS need to be fastened to someone to be active?
    (c) If an AMS is either fastened to a wrist or held in the hand, can reach be used to center the AMS so that the body is not inside the generated AMF?
    (d) Can AMS be hurled as an improvised thrown weapon?

    My understanding at the moment:
    (a) No. Evidence is provided by "Shackles of Silence" in MIC which take no body slot.
    (b) No. Shackles can be fastened without fitting to anything.
    (c) Yes, as an attack or a move action (including full attack).
    (d) Yes, as an improvised one handed thrown weapon (range 10', standard action), since a weight of 5lbs is very similar to other one handed weapons.

    Is this understanding correct or wrong? If so, where and why?
    My understanding is:
    (a) By the rules, no slot is specified. Although I would call it a wrist slot item personally.
    (b) Yes, they have to be worn to activate.
    (c) Yes, if you have a ten foot reach you could be standing outside of the effect since the rules state AMF only affects parts of creatures that are inside it.
    (d) No, because as stated it has to be worn to turn on.

    If you wanted to wear them then you should know making full attacks with shackles on would be very awkward. If you're alright with the custom item rules already(or your DM is, if you are not the DM) then I would suggest just making them bracers, no chain connecting them. Taking up the wrist slot is hardly an issue since anything you could be wearing there would be inside the AMF anyway. Either that, or make it some sort of thrown weapon so that it can be active all the time, not just when wielded. This also would negate the -4 improvised penalty.
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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Quote Originally Posted by Marnath View Post
    (c) Yes, if you have a ten foot reach you could be standing outside of the effect since the rules state AMF only affects parts of creatures that are inside it.
    Nope, you only need a 5' reach to stand outside the effect, if you want to believe the shackles work that way. A 5' radius by RAW is equivalent to 10' square. Therefore, by RAW, there will always be a diagonal space within your reach that you could theoretically push the shackles out to in order to not be affected by them. Which is why I believe that interpretation to be wrong until rock solid evidence is shown to the contrary, otherwise the shackles are useless for containing a spellcaster that can cast teleport, or shapechanger that can just transform.
    Last edited by Hirax; 2012-09-15 at 04:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    Nope, you only need a 5' reach to stand outside the effect, if you want to believe the shackles work that way. A 5' radius by RAW is equivalent to 10' square. Therefore, by RAW, there will always be a diagonal space within your reach that you could theoretically push the shackles out to in order to not be affected by them. Which is why I believe that interpretation to be wrong until rock solid evidence is shown to the contrary, otherwise the shackles are useless for containing a spellcaster that can cast teleport, or shapechanger that can just transform.
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I was referring to the long arms graft he's getting for his character, which even by RAW would put the ends of his hands far enough from his body that the 5 foot field would not cover him. It would only come up to his elbows or something.
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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Quote Originally Posted by Marnath View Post
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I was referring to the long arms graft he's getting for his character, which even by RAW would put the ends of his hands far enough from his body that the 5 foot field would not cover him. It would only come up to his elbows or something.
    And I'm saying you don't need 10' reach for that. You only need 5' reach to do that.

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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    And I'm saying you don't need 10' reach for that. You only need 5' reach to do that.
    Nuh uh. If you have 5 foot reach, your hands are in the space next to you. As has been pointed out, a 5 foot radius is two squares. So the square adjacent to you where your hands are, and the space you're standing in. If you have ten foot reach, it would be in the squares two away from you and adjacent.
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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles



    If you reach to square 7, the AMF is no longer affecting you. Red is where the AMF affects normally, green is where it affects if you reach to square 7, and the star is a medium or small creature. In retrospect, it would have been better to stripe square 7 rather than split it in half, but what the heck, it wouldn't be a paint drawing if it weren't in some way hideously flawed.

    Edit: of course, I still don't believe that the shackles ever leave the wearer's square. But if you want to believe that they can, then this rendering is the reality.
    Last edited by Hirax; 2012-09-15 at 05:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    If you reach to square 7, the AMF is no longer affecting you. Red is where the AMF affects normally, green is where it affects if you reach to square 7, and the star is a medium or small creature. In retrospect, it would have been better to stripe square 7 rather than split it in half, but what the heck, it wouldn't be a paint drawing if it weren't in some way hideously flawed.

    Edit: of course, I still don't believe that the shackles ever leave the wearer's square. But if you want to believe that they can, then this rendering is the reality.

    If we're making the assumption that the shackles are in grid space 7, then 2,6,10,11 and 12 should also be.
    I've been measuring from the center of the square since it's an item and not a stand-alone spell.
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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Ok, I see where you were going wrong. Well, aside from allowing the shackles to leave the wearer's square in the first place. I don't believe it ever states anywhere that an attended item is ever occupying, entering, or exiting a square other than the one its owner is in. Even the Rules Compendium quote Anthrowhale cites doesn't say this. On its face, it would intuitively be a corollary to that quote, that a weapon in is the AMF's square vis-a-vis verisimilitude, but that's not necessarily the case for the purposes of rules. It's entirely possible that the intended reading is that for the purposes of location, an attended item is only ever in its owner's square, and attacking into an AMF has that one specific interaction with an item. I don't have a hard time believing that the rules are written in such a way as to make it so you don't need to keep track of what squares attended items are in, in addition to people. Edit: Plus, that interpretation makes AMF shackles not useless for their intended purpose, as mentioned.
    Last edited by Hirax; 2012-09-15 at 10:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Use of Antimagic Shackles

    Wait. Wouldn't his interpretation make them worthless for his intended use as well? He gets right up next to the mage, who can then just reach outside the AMF and suddenly be able to cast a spell?
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