[PF] Oradin Mini-Guide. Or, How to be a Healbot, minus the 'bot'

[b0rab0ra]

Hospitaler will trade your 2nd use of Smite Evil for a separate Channeling Pool (note, despite not getting it until level 4, it still uses FULL Paladin level, so it would give 2d6 healing).

Can I check this, isn't it paladin level -3 for effective cleric level? I don't want to screw myself out of 1d6.

[grarrrg]

Can I check this, isn't it paladin level -3 for effective cleric level? I don't want to screw myself out of 1d6.

Whoops! Good catch.
The Default Paladin Channel Energy is Paladin=Cleric.
But the Hospitaler DOES get a -3 penalty.

TO THE EDITS!

[Almaseti]

Aasimars have a variant ability (though you're supposed to roll dice to pick one, so unless your dm lets you or you get lucky, you can't actually guarantee getting it) that lets you cast Shield Other 1/day as an SLA.

[Zubrowka74]

Any thoughts on channeling variants ? Both Palladins and Oracle have them.

[Arcnsparc]

Question: I Built a 4 Oracle, 6 Paladin, and I love this build so much. I have a phylactery of positive healing and it is really paying off. If I were to take a one level dip in cleric, would I pick up another 3+CHA Mod channel energies per day, or would a cleric level stack with the Hospitalier's "channel energy as a cleric of 3 levels lower."

I would REALLY like to have three channeling pools!

• 3+CHA from Hospitalier (Currently 4d6, will advance)
• 1+CHA from Life Mystery (Currently 4d6 will not advance)
• 3+CHA from Cleric (Would be 3d6, would not advance)

Further more, if each of these channel pools could be affect by the one Phylactery of Positive Healing, I would really be in business!

If I can have three channeling pools and the Phylactery effects them all, are there any other classes that I could pick up even more pools from? Otherwise I am going to keep advancing Paladin (hospitalier) for the Channels, Lay on Hands, and spells.

This is for a party that needs a healer, so I want to provide in style. Any advice is appreciated!

EDIT: According to this FAQ taking a dip into cleric would get me another 3+CHA channels of positive energy/day. This will be at 1d6 but with the Phylactery of Positive Channeling it will be 3d6. For the one level dip I am getting about 25d6 more healing in. Now to pick a domain... I just wish there were more ways to add healing per die...

[grarrrg]

Question: I Built a 4 Oracle, 6 Paladin, and I love this build so much...If I were to take a one level dip in cleric, would I pick up another 3+CHA Mod channel energies per day, or would a cleric level stack with the Hospitalier's...
EDIT: According to this FAQ taking a dip into cleric would get me another 3+CHA channels of positive energy/day.

The FAQ is correct, Channeling Pools do NOT stack unless they explicitly say they do, like the Holy Vindicator PrC.

As for Domains, you'll want ones with decent bonuses up front:
[copy/paste from Class Dipping Guide, ]
Protection: +1 all Saves
Travel: +10ft. movement

Inquisitions: (can be taken by any class with compatible Deity)
Oblivion: 10ft. Aura, you/ally add your Wis to Stabilization checks
Persistence: Step Up feat
Spellkiller: Disruptive feat

[Arcnsparc]

I am going to pick up a one level dip in Cleric, which will leave me with one more level to work with as the 15th level of paladin isn't worth much. SO instead Ill dip in something else.

Would a Synthesist summoner be a good choice? I could potentially get a whole lot more hit points out of my hit point battery it seems. Id have to take Biped, and then I am not sure for the 3 evo points. I'd lose the high AC of the Paladin armor, but if the character gets spanked the eidolon will vanish and Ill be back to normal. Plus the CHA base spells would be nice, I could grab some utility spells (enlarge person looks nice on that list).

Thoughts on a one level Synthesist dip please!

EDIT: The Fused Eidolon would give my Oradin Temporary Hit Points. At best this could provide 5.5(HD)+3(con) = 8 HP and Temporary HP at that. Because the Tiefling Oradin has some nice elemental resists (5 fire, cold, elec) a dip in Summoner (Synthesis) could be a nice way to grab that Sonic & Cold resist.

To make a Fused Eidolon work I would need a way to make the Temporary HP be used last, or stack a LOT of Temporary HP above the Eidolon's(maybe shield other?). EDIT: Nevermind, Fused Link fixes this! The biggest issue I suppose is the loss of that Paladin Full-Plate though (Using Nature's Whisper with Full-Plate to really bump up AC). Any Ideas?


EDIT 2: A 2 level dip in Synthesis Summoner could grab me some nice abilities and methods of battlefield control. Evasion would be nice for mitigating damage as my Oradin has GREAT saves. With 4 evolution points I could grab Reach and Push (it doesn't say it has to be on a natural attack). The remaining 2 evolution points could be for limbs, allowing me to hold a shield, two hand my weapon, and keep a free hand open for what ever is needed. The Darkvision and +2 natural armor are just gravy at this point. A question arises that because "While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor" would I also lose any penalties, namely Arcane Spell Failure.

[8wGremlin]

if DM allowed would combining Pathfinder Oracle; with Life Mastery, taking life link, channel and turn undead feats and the 3.5 SRD prestige paladin be good?

If you can would this be good?

• Oracle to 4
• +1 BAB class
• Prestige Paladin

Edit: Cross posted here for added visibility and hopefully more comments?

[Arcnsparc]

I started out wanting to build a NPC to back up the players in my game. The party is quite squishy so I wanted to make a tank that could heal, the Oradin was a dream come true. The party is all level 10, so I felt this NPC should be that level too. This thread made me obsess a little with this build, so I present the results:

Aasimar 2 Paladin(hospitaler), 2 Summoner (synthesist), 5 Oracle (dual cursed), and 1 Cleric.

Stats: 10, 10, 11, 12, 16(14+2 race), 22(18 + 2 race +2 levels)
Stats with Eidolon: 17, 11, 13, 12, 16, 22

• 1 - Paladin; Normal play but with semi poor stats
• 2 - Paladin; Divine Grace & Lay on Hands
• 3 - Summoner; Get the good physical stats with the Eidolon for the Evolutions I grab Reach (my weapon, RAW), Limbs(arms)
• 4 - Summoner; Resist Fire, Evasion
• 5 - Oracle; Lame(primary), Tongues(secondary), Life Link
• 6 - Oracle;
• 7 - Oracle; Channel Energy
• 8 - Oracle;
• 9 - Oracle; Nature's Whisper (CHA to AC)
• 10 - Cleric; Another 3+CHA channels, Travel domain (+10 move), Protection domain (+1 on saves)

So if I were naked with no items I'd be at:

• BAB 8/3
• Saves 15 / 11 / 23 (high Will needed to prevent losing Eidolon by banishment or dismissal) (save bonuses from Protection domain, Divine Grace)
• AC +8 (+6 CHA, +2 Synth)
• Resist 5 against Fire, Cold, Acid, & Electric
• Move: 25 -10(lame) -5(Armor), +10 (travel Domain)
• HP 52 + 10(CON) + 10 (Toughness) +12 (Temp, Eidolon) = 72 +12 Temp; Could be a lot higher by taking 3 more levels in Summoner to get con up to 16 and or using magic equipment.

Feats: Fey Founding (Oradin build), Selective Channel, Quicken Spell(for all of those bonus slots in the casting classes, or other metamagic), Toughness, Antagonize (no power attack for a support character!)

Skills: Many to choose from, I like Intimidate with Antagonize to draw fire away from squishy casters.

Equipment: Focus on CHA & CON as these are stacked on many other abilities. With 4 arms this character can two-hand a sword, carry a shield, and keep a hand free. Wears Full-Plate then summon Eidolon, lose the armor bonus and if the Eidolon dies, your AC will jumps by 10. Definitely get the Phylactery of Positive healing to really get those channels going. Use item creation to get odd version of physical gear to round out the Eidolon stats (A belt of +1 Str/Dex/Con would only cost 4k according to IC rules).

Abilities:

• Channel (oracle) 7/day 3d6
• Channel (cleric) 9/day 1d6
• Lay on Hands 7/day 1d6
• Summon Monster I 9/day (2 minute duration, Eidolon must be down)
• Life Link & Shield Other (spell) to keep people alive
• Various goodies like Detect Evil, Darkvision,

In combat the character will use Reach to threaten a larger area, Heal the party like crazy,

From here I plan to advance Paladin(Hospitaler) the rest of the way to 20 bringing the total to 12 paladin levels, but depending on play style a person could advance as either Oracle or Summoner from here. I'll be short the 4th level Paladin spells, but I should make up for it elsewhere. Picking spells will be a headache but should offer a LOT of flexibility.

Thanks to grarrrg for the awesome build and guide!

[grarrrg]

Aasimar 2 Paladin(hospitaler), 2 Summoner (synthesist), 5 Oracle (dual cursed), and 1 Cleric.
[*]3 - Summoner; Get the good physical stats with the Eidolon for the Evolutions I grab Reach (my weapon, RAW), Limbs(arms)
...[*]5 - Oracle; Lame(primary), Tongues(secondary), Life Link
...[*]9 - Oracle; Nature's Whisper (CHA to AC)[/LIST]
...
With 4 arms this character can two-hand a sword, carry a shield, and keep a hand free.

I don't know that a 2 level dip in Summoner would be all that great, about all it let's you do is fudge your Stats a little bit, which I'm not sure would be worth it what with the massive loss of AC and all...
Also, Oracle's can only ever take _one_ Mystery, so you can't grab Nature's Whispers. The Dual-Cursed Archetype only gets you a 2nd Curse and a couple extra Revelations.

If you can would this be good?

• Oracle to 4
• +1 BAB class
• Prestige Paladin

Looks decent to me.
For the +1 Bab class, I'd probably go with Cavalier, you'd get +1 to your Mount's level, and with the Emissary or Gendarme archetypes you could snag the Mounted Combat feat for free.
You'd obviously have to tweak how the PrC-Paladin's Turn Undead/Channeling would scale, but that's fairly minor.

[Arcnsparc]

Also, Oracle's can only ever take _one_ Mystery, so you can't grab Nature's Whispers. The Dual-Cursed Archetype only gets you a 2nd Curse and a couple extra Revelations.

For some reason I was under the impression that the level 5 revelation of a dual cursed oracle could be from ANY mystery. I will have to figure out why I thought that or where I read it!

EDIT:

"At 1st level, 3rd level, and every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and so on), an oracle uncovers a new secret about her mystery that grants her powers and abilities. The oracle must select a revelation from the list of revelations available to her mystery"

"A dual-cursed oracle gains a new revelation at 5th level and 13th level. These are in addition to the normal revelations she receives at 3rd level, 7th level, and so on."

And from the Channeling the Cosmos: A Guide to the Oracle:
"You gain two additional revelations over the course of your oracle levels with no restrictions."

I suppose I misinterpreted this to mean a revelation from ANY mystery. Ill have to find another way to get that CHA to AC.

[8wGremlin]

Oddness abound:

Could you use Sword of the Arcane Order with a Prestige Paladin?

If you could get track and wild empathy, plus the cavelier's mount, could you use the feat devoted tracker and what would it do?

[8wGremlin]

(24 hours later)

Anyway to combine this with a Dirk Trowser-fang build?

Great Fortitude, Poison Healer, Endurance, Steadfast Determination + Beer (a poison) or tiny vipers down the pants

Every save you make vs poison you gain CON mod hp back

Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Oracle?

[HylianKnight]

Loving this build. A question about the Holy Vindicator prestige class though, I noticed the wording for Channel Energy is bit ambiguous.

The vindicator’s class level stacks with levels in any other class that grants the channel energy ability.

Emphasis added. I think it's weird they said that as opposed to the standard wording for PrC class stacking abilities, like:

A vindicator gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class.

I know when I first read it I took it to mean it increases any (as in all) instances of Channel Energy. Any official clarification on this?



Also, regardless you should add the Warrior of Holy Light archetype to the Holy Vindicator PrC option. You can take it with the Hospitaler, and if you're only planning on taking 4 levels of Paladin it makes much more sense to replace your one 1st level spell with an extra use of Lay on Hands and a new buff ability to use them on.

[DrDeth]

Fey Foundling is a great feat, but some campaigns won't allow it. There is also the Sandpoint Faithful Trait, which gives one extra HP of healing.

[Zubrowka74]

Don't forget Noble Scion (of War) for CHA to Init.

[grarrrg]

Loving this build. A question about the Holy Vindicator prestige class though, I noticed the wording for Channel Energy is bit ambiguous.

The vindicator’s class level stacks with levels in any other class that grants the channel energy ability.

Emphasis added. I think it's weird they said that as opposed to the standard wording for PrC class stacking abilities

Because, strictly speaking, you don't "need" to be a divine caster to get Channel Energy (there are a couple ways ).

"Any" means "one". If they intended it to be every class, it would probably say "every other class" instead.

Although, like "+1 level spellcasting" you could probably split the levels amongst multiple classes, i.e. Taking 4 levels of Oracle gets you 2d6 Channel, throw 1 level of Vindicator at Oracle to bump it up to 3d6, and then throw the rest at Paladin.

Also, regardless you should add the Warrior of Holy Light archetype to the Holy Vindicator PrC option.

The Warrior of Holy Light is already mentioned in the Archetype section.
Stacking of Archetypes/PrC's is up to the player.

Fey Foundling is a great feat, but some campaigns won't allow it. There is also the Sandpoint Faithful Trait, which gives one extra HP of healing.

Hmm...never went through the Traits to look for stuff....
TO THE EDITS!

Don't forget Noble Scion (of War) for CHA to Init.

Not forgotten. Just not included.
While it is a good feat, it doesn't help the "healing" angle any (which is the focus of the build/guide), and due to needing to take the Life Mystery, you are unable to 'fully' dump DEX anyway, limiting the usefulness some.

[Zubrowka74]

A pity you cannot double mysteries like you can with curses.

[grarrrg]

A pity you cannot double mysteries like you can with curses.

Agreed.
Then again, double Mysteries might be TOO good, to the point where _if_ they made an archetype for that, they'd probably saddle them with LOTS of downsides, so as to be worthless.

[Zubrowka74]

Well, they DID make a cross-blooded sorcerer ;)

Agreed, it gimps the spellcasting BUT for a dip it doesn't matter. I guess they are being wise in curbing the cheese.

Anyhow, what happens to a cleric who switch faith ? Is the the whole set of perks is switched as well or only the future ones ?

[Novawurmson]

With permission, I'll add this to my "guide to the guides." This is a great build - sort of a Vitalist for groups that don't allow third party material (or don't like psionics, or want more of a religious feel, or...)

[grarrrg]

With permission, I'll add this to my "guide to the guides." This is a great build - sort of a Vitalist for groups that don't allow third party material (or don't like psionics, or want more of a religious feel, or...)

Go nuts dude.
This thread mainly exists because I kept on having to link to the last time I had posted about doing an Oradin build.
This way it's all in one handy little place.

[charcoalninja]

Not sure if this has been noted or not, but it looks like it's been overlooked in your opening post, but Holy Vindicator is even better for this build because it progresses BOTH channel pools.

The relevant text from Holy Vindicator:

Channel Energy(su):
The vindicator’s class level stacks with levels in any other class that grants the channel energy ability.

stacks with any other class that grants the channel energy. It doesn't say you choose one. If the class grants channel energy, it stacks, so both Oracle channel and Paladin Channel are buffed (lay on hands still isn't though).

[grarrrg]

Channel Energy(su):
The vindicator’s class level stacks with levels in any other class that grants the channel energy ability.

Stacks with _any_ other class.
NOT Stacks with _every_ other class.

If you can get you DM to agree on "every", then go nuts.

[Occasional Sage]

How do you justify a paladin becoming a member of the Hellknights? Mechanically it's a strong choice, but the HK clash sharply with the paladin's code regarding associates.

[charcoalninja]

Stacks with _any_ other class.
NOT Stacks with _every_ other class.

If you can get you DM to agree on "every", then go nuts.

In all other cases in the game where you must choose a class to benefit the text explicitly lays out that requirement. See prestige classes "Choose a spellcasting class, levels of X stack..."

Also note it says any, not "any one". As it does not say it stacks with a single class, any by virtue of english, means all.

Edit: see spontaneous casting for an example of any meaning all. All spontaneous casters in their casting text say they"can cast any spell she knows at any time." Since the text did not specify "any one" it means they can cast all of the spells spontaneously whenever they want and do not have to choose one. I'll find some more examples that are more related to class feature granting but that's the general use of any I'm using.

Edit 2: Spell effects are another great example. Whenever the text reads "any" it means basically "whenever this condition is met". Any creatures in the area blah blah, any creatures touching, blah blah. This use of any is consistant with my channel energy interpretation. Any levels of channel energy means if you have classes that have channel energy, they stack with Holy Vindicator.

Edit 3: Bonus feats require you to meet "any" prerequisites and so you must meet them all. "The character must still meet any prerequisites for these bonus feats." Demonstrating that the game's use of any refers to all.

Edit 4: Caster level stacking: "He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting." Any being used with a class feature to mean all.

I feel that's enough rules referencing to make my case. Holy Vindicator's whole schtick is progressing your channeling, and since it says it stacks with any levels, it means all occurances your character happens to have.

[Novawurmson]

How do you justify a paladin becoming a member of the Hellknights? Mechanically it's a strong choice, but the HK clash sharply with the paladin's code regarding associates.

I had an NPC who was a Paladin/Hellknight. The Hellknight order is heavily about discipline and protecting the civilized world (it's how they go about that mission that can get them a bad rap). The "We are the last, pure defenders of a world overrun by chaos and misery" can sound very attractive to a Paladin. Remember Hellknights can explicitly be any lawful, so by RAW, there can be (and probably are) LG Hellknights.

True, some of their comrades summon demons, but this is often to kill them as training (there's also the Malconvoker logic - we'll bind them and force them to good here instead of letting them roam free committing evil elsewhere).

[grarrrg]

(garbage)

Chill.
Out.

I am sticking to the MOST LIKELY interpretation here.
If you want to have the above argument with your GM (as I mentioned last post) then go ahead, see if he will allow it.
Most likely they will not.

I am not making this guide to be a "here's an awesome loophole you can abuse the heck out of".
I am making this guide to be useable by anyone. Yes, from time to time something may not be allowed at your table, but that, again, is up to the GM.

[Karoht]

Life Link trick.

The only limitation on Life Link is how many you can have active. They have no listed duration, so infinite is assumed.

Get an Oracle with Fast Healing somehow. In my current campaign, the new players all start at the minimum level of the book we are on (modules) so our Oracle took a LA1 template that got him Fast Healing 2. I think the template was Celestial Touched, with the Planetar option.

Out of combat, you Life Link one person who is injured, you drain off some of your health (we do 10 HP at at time) then sever the link and use the fast healing to fix up the rest on yourself. Re-establish the link and repeat until the entire party is full. 10 HP takes about 5 rounds to Fast Heal back with FA2. So the party hangs out after combat, chills, stays on guard for a follow-up attack of some sort, heals to full at about 10 hp every 30 seconds, then moves on once everyone is okay.

[NewDefect]

Do you have a recommended spell list?