[PF] Oradin Mini-Guide. Or, How to be a Healbot, minus the 'bot'

[grarrrg]

I do think Beacon of Hope might be a little bit undervalued....Am I missing something here?

Yes, you're probably reading the SRD version (which due to copyright-blah-blah can't list certain things, like the names of deities).
The feat requires you worship Milani, who is a Chaotic Good god, and thus (generally) not an option for Paladins to worship.

[Captain Morgan]

Yes, you're probably reading the SRD version (which due to copyright-blah-blah can't list certain things, like the names of deities).
The feat requires you worship Milani, who is a Chaotic Good god, and thus (generally) not an option for Paladins to worship.

Ooooh. Well that blows. Luckily for me my DM is ignoring the alignment restriction. Assuming that you can actually use the feat, would you agree with my assessment? Is it worth replacing, say, Greater Mercy for a 4 Oracle/4 Paladin build?

Current feats are Fey Foundling, Power Attack, Selective Channeling, and Greater Mercy. Took Ancestral Arms to get an elven curve blade but am now considering defaulting back to skill focus so I can possibly take Eldritch Heritage later for that Tumor Familiar. It's also an enormous partycfukl of martials so I'm tempted to go Oracle past 8 to increase the life link and gain more buff spells.

[grarrrg]

Ooooh. Well that blows. Luckily for me my DM is ignoring the alignment restriction. Assuming that you can actually use the feat, would you agree with my assessment? Is it worth replacing, say, Greater Mercy for a 4 Oracle/4 Paladin build?

Current feats are Fey Foundling, Power Attack, Selective Channeling, and Greater Mercy.

Beacon of Hope is also a little contradictory. You have to Channel>Heal to grant the effect, but the effect is one you want at the start of a battle, when you are more likely to be at full HP, so the healing would be wasted.

It depends on the fight just how useful it would be, being the "mini-Bard" could be handy to the part of Martials...might be worth a go, would recommend getting Quick Channeling at some point though, so you can grant it as a Move action instead of Standard.


I'd say there are worse feats, but there are better ones too.

[Captain Morgan]

Beacon of Hope is also a little contradictory. You have to Channel>Heal to grant the effect, but the effect is one you want at the start of a battle, when you are more likely to be at full HP, so the healing would be wasted.

It depends on the fight just how useful it would be, being the "mini-Bard" could be handy to the part of Martials...might be worth a go, would recommend getting Quick Channeling at some point though, so you can grant it as a Move action instead of Standard.


I'd say there are worse feats, but there are better ones too.

Would the boost still work if a character was at full health and got hit by it? Seems like it's worth using then, especially since you can use your weaker channel pool for it...

Also, does the Chosen One archetype stack with Hospitaler? I'm thinking it doesn't, since it alters the channel energy ability even though it doesn't replace anything.

[animewatcha]

Unfortunately, it alters the channel energy alone is enough. It also messes with smite evil and lay on hands.

[Captain Morgan]

I definitely want to do the mini bard thing, but I'm a little torn between the Hospitaler/Beacon of Hope route or the Holy Tactician. Party has like 6 martials (not counting myself), a caster or two, plus some undead minions by the sound of it. Not sure how many are ranged.

Hospitaler:
+ An extra 8 channels a day, which while lower on heal dice can be used for BoH
+ Beacon of Hope provides a higher morale bonus on attack roles than Bless or the Holy Light aura, which frees up a lot of casting options. Also applies to all saves.
+Fully powered personal smite
+ Channeling may be a more efficient for healing thanks to party size.
+ Can be used with Quick Channel to further improve action economy.
+ Maintains base class auras. With saves this high that's less relevant to the Oradin, but allies may appreciate.
+ Can basically buff once and then hop into the fray.

- Unclear as to how best to level up. Lots of good reasons to stay Pally, but the Oracle will EVENTUALLY get better buff spells.
-Beacon of Hope doesn't apply to damage rolls or AC.
-Quick Channel and BoH eat up feats, and this thing has a lot of competition for those.

Holy Tactician:
+ Less feat intensive.
+ Outflank is a +2 bonus that can stack with EVERYTHING.
+ Can generate extra attacks of opportunity.
+ Eventually can nab the whole party coordinated charge, which does all sorts of stuff.
+ Creates more incentive to focus on taking Paladin levels
+ Grants free movement around the board
+ Can take Warrior of Holy Light to stack with other bonuses.

- Worse action economy. Needs a standard for the teamwork, standard for Holy Light aura, standard for any spells cast... So while it can lead to higher bonuses it takes longer to do so and keeps the Oradin from just smashing heads.
-Bonuses are more situational. If flanking isn't practical, or party gets too spread out, the BoH buff is superior.
-Loses immunities. Don't care that much with saves this good.
- Weal's Champion sorta sucks in comparison to Smite. The bonuses are lower, but the real problem is the duration is so short, especially when multiclassing. I'd only get 2 rounds per use at Pally 4.
-Loses Divine Bond, which I was looking forward to using since I don't think WBL is in play and I would love to add Keen to my curve blade.

[grarrrg]

My vote is for the Holy Tactician in this case.

Holy Tactician:
- Worse action economy. Needs a standard for the teamwork, standard for Holy Light aura, standard for any spells cast

Do note that the 'share Teamwork feat' ability does _not_ have a listed duration. As long as they can see/hear you they get the feat. So the "standard action" is usually a non-issue as you can share Teamwork at the start of the day and forget about it.

And it's only a Swift action to change the feat. Get a variety of Teamwork feats with your bonuses and swap them out on the fly, and encourage your teammates to _actually_ take some of the feats, so that they are 'always on' for you.

Lookout is good to keep up when not in combat. It will probably be replaced by Coordinated Charge at some point though.
Fighting Casters? Shake it Off
General melee? Outflank
Need more damage? Precise Strike
Gotta sneak in somewhere? Stealth Synergy

[Captain Morgan]

Took your suggestion and the first session went very well.

Unfortunately, I just realized how bonkers a Holy Tactician/Warrior of Light is with a War Drummer Skald. Amplified Rage, plus being able to craft Furious/Courageous weapons for everyone is so freaking crazy. Path of Glory, Lesser Celestial Totem, and Greater Skald Vigor also make it an amazing healer.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Grarrg --

Thank you so much for creating this guide. I've been playing a Spirit Guide Oradin in PFS and having a wonderful time. I've posted to make you aware of the new ACG errata.

Shaman life spirit life links have been upgraded to be the full equivalent of life oracle life links, making a wisdom-based Oradin (Inquisi-man? Shamitor?) possible.

Hmm

[grarrrg]

Grarrg --

Who?

Shaman life spirit life links have been upgraded to be the full equivalent of life oracle life links, making a wisdom-based Oradin (Inquisi-man? Shamitor?) possible.

Good.
It's about time that book got a swift kick in the punctuals.
Yes, the Shaman just got a goodly upgrade, as did the Spirit Guide Oracle. Can now choose Not-Life Mystery, and still Life Link all you want.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

The errata giveth and the errata taketh away.

The ARG errata has made bumping a revelation for half-elves, elves and aasimars much less feasible in an oradin build.

We now get 1/6 to level rather than 1/2.

It's not the end of the world, but the change makes my Oradin, Lyric, a little disheartened.

Hmm

[DarkOne-Rob]

I have followed and enjoyed the updates to this thread for quite some time, and am excited to (finally) add something of value!

There is a nice trait I want to suggest for the guide - Sun-Blessed. It is a magic trait (doesn't conflict with Blessed Touch or other Faith traits) and adds temporary HPs for over-healing (up to your Character Level for 1 minute). While not perfect, I think it deserves some mention and has some great value to an Oradin. What do you guys think?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Yes, the Shaman just got a goodly upgrade, as did the Spirit Guide Oracle. Can now choose Not-Life Mystery, and still Life Link all you want.

Could you elaborate on this a bit more, please? I was under the impression that Life Link was only available if you picked the Life Mystery. How do you get it with other Mysteries? I'm intrigued by the possibility of a Paladin/Nature Oracle/Holy Vindicator. Unless by Not-Life Mystery you mean different classes entirely like Shaman, in which case I'm back to square one.

[Second Arrow]

Could you elaborate on this a bit more, please? I was under the impression that Life Link was only available if you picked the Life Mystery. How do you get it with other Mysteries? I'm intrigued by the possibility of a Paladin/Nature Oracle/Holy Vindicator. Unless by Not-Life Mystery you mean different classes entirely like Shaman, in which case I'm back to square one.

It is also selectable if you choose the Life Spirit, which gives access to the Life Link hex (functions identically to the Life Link revelation as of now).

Thus, the Spirit Guide Oracle can get access to Life Link by level 3 with their Wandering Hex, and the Shaman can select it as one of their Wandering Hexes.

[grarrrg]

Could you elaborate on this a bit more, please? I was under the impression that Life Link was only available if you picked the Life Mystery. How do you get it with other Mysteries? I'm intrigued by the possibility of a Paladin/Nature Oracle/Holy Vindicator. Unless by Not-Life Mystery you mean different classes entirely like Shaman, in which case I'm back to square one.

What Second Arrow said.
The Oracle archetype Spirit Guide lets you cherry pick from Shaman Spirits, of which Life Spirit, complete with Life Link, is an option.
So a Spirit Guide Oracle can choose Life Mystery and [whatever] Spirit to expand their options.
Or a Spirit Guide Oracle can choose [not Life] Mystery and Life Spirit to access to Channeling and Life Link.

Main downside is Spirit Guide trades away your 3rd, 7th, and 15th revelations, so you'll probably be wanting the Extra Revelation feat.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That sounds REALLY tempting!

Also, something to be aware of with the Evangelist prestige class: The deity you pick determines which of your base classes Evangelist keys off of, and only two include either paladin or oracle among their list off acceptable Evangelist starting classes. Iomedae can have paladin Evangelists, while Pharasma can have oracle Evangelists. And given Pharasma's True Neutral, she doesn't grant power to Paladins who have to be Lawful Good. It opens up a bit more if you're using Inquisitor, allowing you to pick from Abadar, Irori, or Sarenrae, but otherwise Evangelist is rather limiting for this kind of character in terms of deity choice.

[Second Arrow]

That sounds REALLY tempting!

Also, something to be aware of with the Evangelist prestige class: The deity you pick determines which of your base classes Evangelist keys off of, and only two include either paladin or oracle among their list off acceptable Evangelist starting classes. Iomedae can have paladin Evangelists, while Pharasma can have oracle Evangelists. And given Pharasma's True Neutral, she doesn't grant power to Paladins who have to be Lawful Good. It opens up a bit more if you're using Inquisitor, allowing you to pick from Abadar, Irori, or Sarenrae, but otherwise Evangelist is rather limiting for this kind of character in terms of deity choice.

While the Evangelist PrC certainly provides a list of classes, I don't believe it was ever stated as a requirement to follow it.

Below are examples of the class types most likely to become evangelists in each of the major faiths of the Inner Sea region.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Question regarding the Spirit Guide archetype for Oracles and the Holy Vindicator prestige class.

Holy Vindicator requires Channel Energy as a class feature, and while the Spirit Guide Oracle CAN get that via the Wandering Spirit class feature they get, the catch is that they'd need to regain that class feature each day. It's not permanent. Would such a character actually qualify for Holy Vindicator, considering they have channel energy through a technicality?

[grarrrg]

Question regarding the Spirit Guide archetype for Oracles and the Holy Vindicator prestige class.

Holy Vindicator requires Channel Energy as a class feature, and while the Spirit Guide Oracle CAN get that via the Wandering Spirit class feature they get, the catch is that they'd need to regain that class feature each day. It's not permanent. Would such a character actually qualify for Holy Vindicator, considering they have channel energy through a technicality?

Ultimately that's a DM call, but I'd lean towards "no", as it is not a fixed/permanent feature.

Another option would be to allow it, but deny you (most) of the Holy Vindicator features if you choose a different Spirit that day.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Would it work the OTHER way around, however, being a Spirit Guide with the Life Mystery and using Wandering Spirit to get neat goodies on the side?

[grarrrg]

Would it work the OTHER way around, however, being a Spirit Guide with the Life Mystery and using Wandering Spirit to get neat goodies on the side?

Don't see why not. As long as you actually took the Channel Revelation at some point you should be fine.

[Mirax]

I somewhat got permission from Grarrrg to jump this onto the back end of his post. I am looking to optimize a Oradin/Skald build. So far I have the first 7 levels pretty well set. I am just not feeling that its very "smooth" or efficient, I feel I am missing something.

Starting with half-orc with fates favored / shamans apprentace / skilled / city raised alternate traits.
Level 1: Skald - Skalding Vigor Feat / Extra Performance Feat (Switched out scribe scroll via PFS rules.) / Bardic Knowledge
Level 2: Bloodrager - Fast Movement / Bloodline Power / Boosts our raging song to bloodrager level.
Level 3: Paladin(Holy Tactician) - Extra Performance Feat
Level 4: Paladin(Holy Tactician) - Lay on Hands (4/day 1D6) / Divine Grace
Level 5: Paladin(Holy Tactician) - Mercy / Amplified Rage Teamwork / Share Teamwork / Aura Of Courage / Power Attack Feat
Level 6: Life Oracle - Life Link
Level 7: Skald - Raging Vitality Feat / Versatile Performance

At level 7 we have 5 level 1 spells from 2 spell lists, a bunch of orisons and cantrips, 4d6 + mercy lay on hands per day, and 5 Bab.
With a 16 starting cha, this character should easily be able to be the face / knowledge monkey for the party. +5 all saves for himself. We also have 20 rounds of song per day.

Once we hit Greater Skalding Vigor, we should be providing everyone in the party 2 Rage Powers, 6Str/6Con, 4 Fast Healing, and Life Linking the main tank while having at least 10str/con on our own rage. Effective 9 Fast Healing on the Tank

If we continue with Skald until 20. We can end up giving the party DR4/- , Bear Totem, Improved / Guarded Life Rage Powers. All of this is quite delayed however with the last point of the DR not coming until level 20. Bear totem only increasing to +6 con at level 20 as well. DR 4/- on everyone , 9 Fast Healing on Tank, and Party +150 EHP to everyone that accepts rage seems pretty good.

My problem with this build is that it almost feels as if it is logistically done at level 7. As long as we pick up greater skalding vigor at level 11 feat, the rage powers to allies almost feels mediocre. I cannot get a feel on how to round out this build after level 7.

Does anyone have any suggestions / optimizations or want to offer any assistance in this optimization. Thanks in advance!

[Captain Morgan]

Life Link only lets you link to a number of creatures up to your Oracle level, so I can't help but feel taking only 1 level in Oracle defeats the purpose of having it. The best rage power to combine with Life Link is Lesser Celestial Totem. -3-4 levels of Oracle and that power and you are basically giving the entire party fast healing 9, and at a level far earlier than Greater Skald's Vigor. The biggest problem for you will be keeping your own health up and still getting to smash face with your standard action, but you can then use Paladin levels to ease that burden.

I'd probably prioritize 3 levels of Skald and 3-4 levels of Oracle (depending on party size), then go Holy Tactician 3. From there, you can decide what to prioritize. Spells (Oracle), party support (Skald), or your own healing and melee (Paladin/Bloodrager).

If you do the above, and won't be relying on Greater Skald Vigor, you can use Community Minded or Lingering performance over Extra Performance. (Really, you should be using Community Minded anyway, that trait is dope on a Skald.)

[Florian]

While the numbers sound impressive at first, I don´t think this ´ll really work out the way as intended.

Conceptually, this is a ver low-AC frontliner and any reasonably played intelligent enemy will immediately switch targets to him once he sings. Then the 3 levels of Paladin will not be sufficient to keep up the healing let alone maintaining the lifelink. That´ll mean equipping a Glaive, Combat Reflexes and getting Enlarge Person early on, position behind the designated tank and working with trip attempts to cover that weakness.

The whole delay in the Skald class features makes them very sub-par besides the Raging Song, so I´d not focus on them too much. I´d delay Bloodrager for later levels, focus on Oracle3/Paladin4/Skald 3+ as a mid-level build, possibly even switching to Human to get Fey Heritage to augment healing, along with Celestial Totem for later. Getting Celestial Healing as Oracle spells known will give access to Fast Healing very early and will help augment LoH.

[Captain Morgan]

Yeah, Florian brings up good points and reinforces my own. Also, Spirit Guide is worth considering. That way you can pick up Life Link and get a better set of revelations. Lunar or Lore would get you CHA to AC, and the former has various other combat boons while the latter can get you skill bonuses.

[Mirax]

Thank you very much for your responses, I really appreciate the input and I will definitely add in community minded and lesser celestial totem per your advice.

My question now stems to the efficacy of oracle at all. Any fast healing, such as Celestial Healing, does not benefit from fey foundling or lesser totem.

It would seem if, to make oracle work, you would need a very high level of oracle, so your life link is suddenly giving +14ish healing on top of the 5. (Skald 3, Paladin 3, Oracle 14). With at least 2 extra performance feats. Without the progression of the rage, you could easily drop greater skalds vigor for one of them and the scribe scroll for the other.

My knowledge of oracles and fights beyond level 10/12 is extremely limited so let me ask this.
What does an oracle bring. I honestly do not know.

Both can cast path of glory, giving everyone standing on the square 14/16 healing per turn for 13/16 turns. This would stack for insane healing on the oracles part. A skald will be healing everyone standing on a path for 23 hp per turn and the tank for 29 at the cost of 5hp per turn. Oracle will be healing everyone life linked for 18 per turn, with 32 if they are standing on the path as well at the cost of ptcount * 5 hp per turn. A skald without path is healing everyone for 6 per turn, the tank for 12 per turn at the cost of 5hp per turn.

Both have access to 6th Level Spells.
Skald has spell kenning x 2 per day. Loracle has a worse version x 1 per day.
A loreacle wont provide 6 Fast Healing to everyone while songing.
A loreacle will have an additonal feat or two which can be converted to extra performance since less.
A loreacle will have slightly more ac (46ish), slightly less combat prowess (-4 str).
A loreacle won't provide +4 str/con to allies that a leveled skald will over a 3rd level skald.
A loreacle won't provide +4 will / +2 fort save to everyone that a leveled skald does over a 3rd level skald.
A loreacle won't provide 70 effective hp to everyone that a leveled skald does over a 3rd level skald.
A loreacle won't provide Dr4/- to everyone.
A loreacle won't have the raise dead to keep fighting song.

So school me, what does a loreacle provide that makes up for these. Increased spell casting and healing? I honestly do not know.
The builds in question imo are (Skald 3, Paladin 4, Oracle 13) vs (Skald 16, Oracle 1, Paladin 3).
This post may sound bias but it is not persay. I really do like the oracle build more. It seems easier and more fun. Thus I need to know what advantages it gives to be able to justify it over all the benefits of a higher level skald.

[Captain Morgan]

I'm not sure the Oracle IS better for you. What is your intention here? What do you see your role as in combat?

What level will your game start at? How high a level will it go? The biggest advantage to taking more than one Oracle level is it comes online much faster than Greater Skald Vigor. But that's not an advantage if you are starting at level 12.

I do think 1 level of Oracle isn't worth it. Life Link is dope because you can heal the entire party, not just the tank.

[Florian]

@Mirax:

Oradin revolves around being able to heal and not having to waste any actions or extra resources for it. It can even be done with Paladin VMC Oracle, so not even the slightest delay in Paladin level progression.
You can invest some feats or items to make it more effective, but that´s not strictly necessary, as it mostly is a secondary build and leaves all options open to work out the primary side of the build, like Archer Oradin or Lancer Oradin. So it´s playing a healer without the pain of having to play a healer.

Contrast that to your suggested build(s): Your investing a rather huge chunk of your feats into it and end up with a character that cannot really contribute to combat on its own. The effectiveness will then hinge on how many characters can profit from Raging Song. If it´s only the tank, then it´s a zero-sum game.

[Mirax]

Well put both of you. I think the best points that both of you made is that the build I suggest does come on much later, and the fact as stated "leaves all options open to work out the primary side of the build, like Archer Oradin or Lancer Oradin." These do make the most sense.

I still think that my build contributes more to the team buffing side, however as pointed out, I would spend most of my actions buffing and being a medicore DD and medicore tank even with +20/20 strength con on myself. I do think a (3skald3pal14oracle) is rather weak compaired to a (16skald3pal1oracle) however we can go back to the builds on the first pages of this thread where its a pure oradin build which does seem quite effective, leaving the skald out.

How would a (14Pal/3Oracle/3Skald) work out? It will be +1 attack / -1 damage vs the 16 skald build above. Overall their combat effectiveness would be roughly the same to a skald with higher ac. So you basically just trade out all of the skalds buffs for more smites / mercys / lay on hands / channels. It would also take a standard to set up the song which is very action inefficient. Does this end up working better or does it fall into the same trap leaving me deciding that skald can't really be effectively splashed as stated in the OP.

Overall it comes down to what the party needs essentially? If you need an effective individual player or someone that will make everyone else effective.

[Captain Morgan]

I mean, there's a lot of stuff any of these builds can do. A paladin 14 would give you Life Link and Channel for mad healing, and your smites will do mad damage. You'll have skill and spell options though.

A Lore Oracle can get CHA to knowledge checks, and use Focused Trance to gain +20 on itelligence checks (never fail crafting!), and more. A Lunar Oracle will get you an animal companion (who will enjoy the buffs you pass out as well), let you grow natural weapons, and so on. Both mysteries give you CHA to AC and reflex saves, and let you use buffs like Prayer, Blessing of Fervor, Righteous Might, and Divine Power to boost yourself and allies.

Skald, you seem to know the options better than I do.

You need to evaluate what levels of play this campaign will extend to, and what role you fill in the party. Consider: what if the tank dies or retires and brings in DEX build?