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  1. - Top - End - #91
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    Two more to go plus proofreading, and I'll have my scores up.
    Optimization Showcase in the Playground

    Former projects:
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    Iron Chef Awards!
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    GOLD
    IC LXXVI: Talos
    IC LXXV: Alphonse Louise Constant
    IC XLIX: Babalon, Queen of Bones
    IC XLV: Dead Mists
    IC XL: Lycus Blackbeak
    IC XXXIX: AM-1468
    IC XXXV: Parsifal the Fool
    IC XXX: Jal Filius

  2. - Top - End - #92
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    Final(?) Tallies after One Judge
    {table=head]Entry|Place|Total|Avg
    Raijin|Gold|14.5|3.625
    SCP|Silver|13.5|3.375
    Dokar|Silver|13.5|3.375
    Long Sha|Fourth|11.5|2.875
    Ssejternock|Fourth|11.5|2.875
    Phillius|Sixth|11|2.75
    Fergal|Seventh|9.5|2.375[/table]

    And, for ease of reference:
    • Phillius: Changeling Rogue 4/Thug Fighter 1/Hand of the Winged Masters 10/Avenger 1/Daggerspell Mage 4
    • SCP: Human Scout 4/Ranger 2/Hand of the Winged Masters 9/Avenging Executioner 5
    • Dokar: Frostblood Half-Orc Scout 4/Planar Ranger 5/Hand of the Winged Masters 9/Highland Stalker 2
    • Long Sha: Human(?) Monk 2/Factotum 3/Avenger 5/Hand of the Winged Masters 10
    • Raijin: Human Rogue 3/Samurai 2/Hand of the Winged Masters 10/Ronin 4/Master of Masks 1
    • Ssejternock: Poisondusk Lizardfolk Rogue 3/Wildshape Ranger 1/Thug Fighter 1/Hand of the Winged Masters 10/Dragonstalker 4
    • Fergal: Whisper Gnome(?) Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 3/Hand of the Winged Masters 10


    I'll definitely be judging this round. In terms of criteria, I'm trying something a little different.

    My Criteria

    Each entry will start at a base score of 12 (3 in each category), with deductions or bonuses awarded based on the following questions:

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    Originality:
    • Does the entry present a compelling backstory/concept?
    • Does the entry enter the Secret Ingredient through a method unique from the sample character in the source as well as other entries in this round?
    • Does the entry make use of any unique mechanical tricks/feat chains?
    • Does the entry avoid known cheese/suggestions that closely mirror optimization handbook build suggestions?

    Power:
    • Does the entry surpass a hypothetical build that continues in the base class used for qualification (e.g. additional rogue or scout levels)?
    • Does the entry function at the same power level throughout an entire adventuring day, rather than relying on "nova" powers?
    • Does the entry place an undue emphasis on items, templates, or other "add-ons" for its power?
    • Does the entry lag significantly in terms of either offense, defense, or utility?

    Elegance:
    • Does the entry qualify for all classes taken?
    • Does the entry qualify for all feats taken?
    • Does the entry rely on any questionable rules interpretations, cross-setting material, or material specifically disallowed from this competition?
    • Does the entry receive any multi-class penalties or suffer from excessive base class dipping*?

    UoSI:
    • Does the entry qualify for the Secret Ingredient and make use of entry requirements?
    • Does the entry complete the Secret Ingredient or present a compelling reason why not doing so is actually a better use of the Secret Ingredient?
    • Does the entry synergize the mechanical unique abilities of the Secret Ingredient with the rest of the build?
    • Does the entry complement the concept of its chassis through use of the Secret Ingredient?


    *Where "dipping" is defined as taking two or fewer levels in a base class and "excessive" is defined as three or more instances of dipping.

    Each of the questions above can be answered in one of three ways. A straight "yes" will earn a +0.5 bonus to the category in question. A straight "no" will suffer a -0.5 penalty to the category, and an ambivalent "yes and no" will wash out with no adjustment to the category. If there are any questions about the clarity of my criteria, please post them openly so I can address. If there are any disagreements about them, please PM me so we can discuss.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Ponies, the Kim Karsdashian of GITP.
    This is what happens when they let me DM:
    Beyond the Horizon IC / OOC
    A Time to Die: Alpha IC / Bravo IC / OOC

  3. - Top - End - #93
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    Next ingredient gives a better than reasonable chance at 9th level spells. I'm just sayin'.
    Iron Chef in the Playground veteran since Round IV. Play as me!


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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    Ohhh caster class, sounds interesting.
    Just call me Dusk
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    Could be a red herring.

    As I recall one or two of the entries in Dragon Disciple cheesed their way into 9ths. The next ingredient could be eunuch warlock, with no more to go on than that.

    Gods I hope it's not eunuch warlock.
    I am not seaweed. That's a B.

    Praise I've received
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
    A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign

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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    ..... bull carp, didn't thought of that.
    Just call me Dusk
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  7. - Top - End - #97

    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Next ingredient gives a better than reasonable chance at 9th level spells. I'm just sayin'.
    Is it Ur-Priest?
    It's been a bit, GitP. If you're reading this, you're either digging through old stuff, or I've posted for the first time in forever.

    If you want to stay in touch, reach out to me on twitter (same username).

    The best answer is always to ask your DM.
    Unless you're the DM, in which case you should talk to your players.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Venger's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    is it shapeshifter?
    I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.

    Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
    Iron Chef Medals!
    Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dark Fiddler View Post
    Is it Ur-Priest?
    That one is so hard to use. You have to give up divine casting and take a really stupid feat to get in.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    Come on, Blighter!
    There is the moral of all human tales;
    'Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
    First freedom and then Glory - when that fails,
    Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
    And History, with all her volumes vast,
    Hath but one page...

  11. - Top - End - #101
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    There's only one class (after Divine Crusader, of course) that grants 9th level spells that could possibly wind up in this competition...

    Blighter.

    (Wait, you don't change the Secret Ingredient if anyone guesses it, right? Either way, that class is going to wind up here sooner or later...)

    EDIT:
    Wow. Ninja'd by 10 minutes. Just... wow.
    Last edited by Fable Wright; 2012-10-22 at 06:05 PM.
    Used to be DMofDarkness
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by DMofDarkness View Post
    There's only one class (after Divine Crusader, of course) that grants 9th level spells that could possibly wind up in this competition...

    Blighter.
    I actually hadn't considered Divine Crusader....that would also be a really neat SI.
    There is the moral of all human tales;
    'Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
    First freedom and then Glory - when that fails,
    Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
    And History, with all her volumes vast,
    Hath but one page...

  13. - Top - End - #103
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Menteith View Post
    I actually hadn't considered Divine Crusader....that would also be a really neat SI.
    Indeed it would.
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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Dusk Eclipse's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    It could be a casting class that has more then 5/10 advancement...
    Just call me Dusk
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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    That cinches it. Yathrinshee it is.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by DMofDarkness View Post
    >.<

    Well I feel smart.
    There is the moral of all human tales;
    'Tis but the same rehearsal of the past.
    First freedom and then Glory - when that fails,
    Wealth, vice, corruption - barbarism at last.
    And History, with all her volumes vast,
    Hath but one page...

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Venger's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by DMofDarkness View Post
    There's only one class (after Divine Crusader, of course) that grants 9th level spells that could possibly wind up in this competition...

    Blighter.

    (Wait, you don't change the Secret Ingredient if anyone guesses it, right? Either way, that class is going to wind up here sooner or later...)

    EDIT:
    Wow. Ninja'd by 10 minutes. Just... wow.
    no, he does not change the SI if someone guesses it.

    I really don't think it's blighter. there's only 2 ways to enter, so there'd be little variance in the dishes.

    since 9ths are possible, it must be a progression of 7/10 or better, which really stumps me, since ardent dilettante was already done. that rules out all the casting progressing ones from bovd, which would've been my guess.

    shapeshifter's out, since it's impossible to get 9ths and complete it.

    candlecaster?
    I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.

    Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
    Iron Chef Medals!
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    Where is Candlecaster from?

    I was wondering if we would head back to the SRD, something like Eldritch Knight or Mystic Theurge, but they don't actually have any class features other than spellcasting...
    DM: You exit the temple. Cleric, roll a knowledge(religion) check...
    Cleric: *passes* "Ah yes, now I recognise it, it was a temple to the god of traps!"
    Thief: *punches Cleric*

    Iron Chef Contest Gallery:
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    IC XVII: Snow (Silver)
    IC XX: Sir Karel (Bronze)
    IC XXXII: 'Aundair' Yannedge-Owens (Gold)
    IC XXXII: Sir Arminel Rayne (Bronze)
    IC XXXIX: Hardy (Bronze)


  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by RFLS View Post
    That one is so hard to use. You have to give up divine casting and take a really stupid feat to get in.
    Surprisingly, a few weeks ago a dude showed up at the forums saying Ur-Priesty was underpowered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xodion View Post
    Where is Candlecaster from?
    Tome and Blood.
    Last edited by ThiagoMartell; 2012-10-23 at 06:24 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Tome and Blood.
    Ah, that's 3.0e isn't it - explains why I don't know it.

    There must be plenty more PrCs we haven't used from the Completes that have lots of spellcasting. I don't see Wild Mage, for example, which looks like a hilarious class to play (no idea how over- or underpowered it is, though).
    Last edited by Xodion; 2012-10-23 at 07:34 AM.
    DM: You exit the temple. Cleric, roll a knowledge(religion) check...
    Cleric: *passes* "Ah yes, now I recognise it, it was a temple to the god of traps!"
    Thief: *punches Cleric*

    Iron Chef Contest Gallery:
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    IC XVII: Snow (Silver)
    IC XX: Sir Karel (Bronze)
    IC XXXII: 'Aundair' Yannedge-Owens (Gold)
    IC XXXII: Sir Arminel Rayne (Bronze)
    IC XXXIX: Hardy (Bronze)


  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Venger's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Xodion View Post
    Ah, that's 3.0e isn't it - explains why I don't know it.

    There must be plenty more PrCs we haven't used from the Completes that have lots of spellcasting. I don't see Wild Mage, for example, which looks like a hilarious class to play (no idea how over- or underpowered it is, though).
    wild mage's class features are pretty ok. the reason it's not seen more is due to wild magic, which has the potential to gimp your caster level a fair portion of the time. it's often mitigated with practiced spellcaster, but some people do not view this as a legal tactic. without this in place, you're randomly slapped with a penalty to your CL 33% of the time.

    I think that since it's full casting it's not likely to be seen in IC, but I could always be wrong.
    I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.

    Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!

    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
    Iron Chef Medals!
    Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition

  22. - Top - End - #112
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    OK, scores are done. Please note that, as I mentioned in my judging criteria, I'm not grading on a curve. In other words, I'm not going to give everyone a bump in UotSI or Power because it's a less than stellar ingredient to work with. As a result, the average scores here are a little lower than they'd normally be. It's not an attack on anyone's build, it's just how my scoring system works!

    Phillius
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    ORIGINALITY: 3
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    Nothing really new or exciting here. It's pretty much a stock character. Daggerspell Mage seems like it might be interesting, but you don't go far enough into the class to get any interesting abilities out of it.


    POWER: 2.5
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    OK, your intended role is infiltrator/assassin. You're decent at it, if not spectacular. Changeling rogue is always nice, giving you some nice social skill boosts. You also max out your stealth skills, although they on the other hand are solely propped up by ranks until very late in the game (you don't get reliable access to Invisibility until level 16, and the only other stealth feature you have is True Stealth at level 20).

    As far as your intended role as assassin, you're a low Strength TWFing rogue, except that a rogue has more SA damage than you do. Your damage isn't high enough to one-shot most enemies, and you don't have any real way to evade attacks or stay alive. A lot of the build elements that may have helped you - the assassin avenger spells, poison use, etc. - don't come until fairly late in the game. You also don't have any way of dealing with enemies immune to sneak attack.


    ELEGANCE: 1.5
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    Not a ton going on here that cries out elegance to me.

    On the mechanical side of things, you don't qualify for Weapon Finesse at level one, which requires a +1 BAB.

    On class choice, you're using Avenger as a class, when it was an April Fools web release by WotC. A lot of tables allow it, but a lot don't. You've also dipped Thug Fighter for what appears to be solely in order to qualify for HotWM. I don't mind dips in general, but going Rogue 4/Thug Fighter 1 instead of Rogue 5 is pretty transparently a dip designed to get up to the necessary +4 BAB to qualify for the SI, made especially painful because Rogue 5 is in all other ways a superior class choice.

    Finally, you're an assassin for an evil dragon, but you're also a member of the Daggerspell Guardians, an order dedicated to rooting out evil? That's a pretty big stretch to me. If it was addressed in the story for the character I could let it pass, but it wasn't.


    USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT: 3
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    On the good side of things, you do use most of the SI's abilities, so good on you there.

    On the bad side of things, though, you don't really do anything all that interesting with the build. You're taking a slower sneak attack progression and worse skills than a straight rogue, and the only thing you really get in return are a couple of bonus feats. The build feels like it would be able to keep the same flavor, abilities and feel as a rogue/avenger/daggerspell mage with a couple of draconic feats.


    TOTAL: 10


    SCP
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    NOTE: I could not find the feat Dreadful Presence, so I'm going to assume that you meant Dreadful Wrath. If there's a Dreadful Presence feat somewhere that I'm just overlooking, please point me in that direction and I'll amend this accordingly.

    ORIGINALITY: 4
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    First off, I enjoyed the character presentation, taking it in a different direction for these contests.

    As for the build itself, it doesn't necessarily break any new ground, but it doesn't feel like a stock build, either. Avenging Executioner was a nice touch here, although everything else was fairly standard. You kept to a theme with the build, though, which is always a plus.


    POWER: 3
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    You've got a two nice things going on here - nice debuffing with fear stacking and Staggering Strike, and decent damage thanks to Craven/skirmish/sudden strike/dragonfire strike. Lion Tribe Warrior is an oft-overlooked way of gaining pounce, which is especially nice for your build.

    That being said, you've got a stealth focus but no real way to keep your stealth up - no Darkstalker or True Stealth, no spells to augment your ranks, etc. You also have no real way to deal with enemies immune to fear or enemies immune to precision damage - and worst of all, enemies that are immune to one are often immune to the other. That means she's going to be more or less useful against undead, constructs, etc. You actually could have at least somewhat reduced this with your favored enemy choice, allowing you to skirmish enemies normally immune via Swift Hunter, but you didn't.

    Also, I don't see why you are advancing sudden strike at level 16 instead of skirmish - even with Avenging Executioner, sudden strike is harder to trigger (since it won't go off if they make their save against frightful presence), whereas skirmish will go off every time you pounce.


    ELEGANCE: 2.5
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    The build overall flows well, with a logical progression of abilities.

    You've got a couple of legality issues, though, mostly with your use of regional feats.

    First off, Lion Tribe Warrior requires you to be a member of the Lion tribe of the Shaar, while Dreadful Wrath requires you to be a human from Rashemen. Also, Dreadful Wrath can only be taken at first level. And, just to REALLY top things off, they're both regional feats, and you're only allowed one regional feat. Since both of these feats are pretty key to your build, that's a fairly large mistake to make.


    USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT: 2
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    I... honestly can't tell why you're taking the secret ingredient at all.

    OK, that's not entirely true. Dragonfire Strike and its improved cousin certainly don't hurt. But you don't make use of most of its abilities (Draconic Senses is an afterthought, master's gift isn't used at all, and you don't even take true stealth). You use the damage boosts, sure, but you'd get those from more ranger levels, or from something like Dread Commando. All of the tricks you provide with the build come from Avenging Executioner and your base levels, rather than the SI.

    Between that and the fact that you only took 9 levels, I just don't see how this is highlighting the SI for you at all.


    TOTAL: 11.5


    Dokar Jaggedfang
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    ORIGINALITY: 3.5
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    The dragonborn frostblood half-orc was unexpected but works. Beyond that you've got a fairly standard Swift Hunter build with a couple of minor twists.

    I will give a small bonus for some of the tricks involving the dragonborn feat shuffling, though - it's the first I've seen some of them.


    POWER: 2.5
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    Using HotWM to up your skirmish damage at an accelerated rate is rather nice, giving you some decent damage. You're also one of the few builds that can actually handle constructs and undead enemies, thanks to your favored enemy choices, so kudos on that one. +16 BAB and Travel Devotion certainly helps you in this regard.

    Your main issue is that you're fragile. Low HD, mediocre Con score, no real evasive abilities to make up for it - you're not going to last long in a fight.

    You're also a bit of a one trick pony... you're a decent skirmisher, but you don't really do anything else. No real tracking or scouting skills to speak of, decent Disable Device but no Search, no abilities that work out of combat, etc. If you can't run up to something and stab it, you're sitting on the sidelines.


    ELEGANCE: 2
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    By a strict reading of RotD, you're technically correct about swapping Endurance, but I can see a lot of tables not allowing it. While it's doable by RAW, because your racial Endurance isn't a pre-requisite for the feat you swapped it for, I can see a lot of DMs taking issue with that one.

    Planar Touchstone to pick up an obscure domain to grant turning is also an issue. Yes, it's technically legal, but it's not something that will fly at most games. If nothing else, gaining access to a valuable object native to the Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus by level 6 is only going to happen by DM fiat. If you were a plane-hopping character and the DCLS Sun domain was granted by Bahamut, I might let it fly, but I don't like it here.

    My final complaint is that Highland Stalker seems more or less tacked on to bring you up to +16 BAB and also boost skirmish. It doesn't really flow with the rest of the build at all.


    USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT: 3.5
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    You do get dinged a bit for not taking all 10 levels. But your quick progression of skirmish is a nice use of the bonus damage provided by HotWM. Swapping the bonus feat it provided for another draconic feat more useful to you was also a nice touch. This also just feels like a Hand of the Winged Master to me. It's one of the few builds where, looking at it, I don't wonder why you didn't just take more levels in ranger.


    TOTAL: 11.5

    Dokar also gets my vote for Honorable Mention.


    Long Sha
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    ORIGINALITY: 4
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    Monk was not expected as a lead-in for HotWM, so you get some points there. You take the abilities in a direction I did not expect, and make some interesting choices overall.

    Backstory was a bit sparse, and if it had been expanded you could have gotten some bonus points here, but overall this build was not what I expected.


    POWER: 1.5
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    You're bringing in Iajutsu Focus, but you're powering it with a low charisma and unarmed strikes. There... are a lot of issues with that. Your only real way of getting sneak attack off is via invisibility - you mention combining feints with flurries, but as feints are a standard action and flurries are a full round, that's not going to really work.

    Touch of Golden Ice is nice at the lower levels, but the DC does not scale well, and it will fade out of usefulness fairly quickly. Power Attack is of limited use for you with your unarmed strikes, made even worse by the middlin' Strength score and below average BAB. You mention focusing on Death Attack, but your DC there is also fairly low and you haven't dedicated any resources to that, either. Snap Kick is nice but would be better if you had a way of boosting your unarmed damage.

    The character is just sort of all over the place as far as abilities go, and could benefit from a little focus.


    ELEGANCE: 2.5
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    The build flows fairly well, even if the abilities are a bit disparate (but I dinged you for that in Power, so I'm not going to hit you again in Elegance). You fail to qualify for Dragontouched, but I'm going to focus on that in the next section. You're using Avenger as a class, when it was an April Fools web release by WotC. A lot of tables allow it, but a lot don't. You did not list what spells you were selecting as spells known for Avenger.


    USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT: 1
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    You fail to qualify for the secret ingredient (you don't have the required Charisma to take Dragontouched), so I am giving you a minimum score here.


    TOTAL: 9


    Raijin
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    ORIGINALITY: 4.5
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    Samurai, Ronin and Master of Masks - there’s a lot here that was unexpected, but works well with the build. Ronin in particular is a nice touch, progressing sneak attack and BAB while also giving you some other nice abilities, such as Banzai Charge. I also really liked the Master of Masks subbing in for the traditional oni masks of the samurai (although your mask choice didn’t necessarily reflect that).

    The backstory and explanation was also well done, and worth a small bonus.


    POWER: 3
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    Let’s start off with the good. You’ve got reasonable sneak attack and some ways of adding on a little bit of extra damage, such as Banzai Charge. You can turn the damage sonic, which is always nice, and you are again one of the few builds with a way of applying SA against normally immune enemies. You’ve got a few decent debuffs, most notably Deafening Strike, although Intimidate + Never Outnumbered certainly doesn’t hurt. You’ve got decent social skills to use out of combat as well.

    On the less good side, your stats don’t support a lot of what you want to do. You’re a melee character with a 10 Strength and no real way to boost it. Even charging doesn’t help, since Two-Weapon Pounce takes away the bonus you’d get from charging. You’re planning to mostly mix it up in melee with a 12 Con and an AC that will be destroyed by Banzai Charge. Several important skills are keyed to your Charisma (Iajutsu Focus, UMD, Intimidate, Bluff) - but you’re starting with a Charisma of 11. This is especially bad for UMD and IF, where you don’t have max ranks.

    Also, your primary way of dealing with SA immune enemies is penetrating strike, but that only works on a flank, which doesn’t fit in well with your character’s modus operandi. Deafening Strike comes online very late, and Arterial Strike’s bleed damage is barely noticeable at level 15. (Besides, at that level, most enemies will just take magical healing to stop the bleeding, eliminating the AoO option).

    Re: Draconic Senses, you seem to be implying that Dragontouched is a draconic feat, but according to my copy of Dragon Magic, it is NOT. That’s actually a pretty big deal, since it means you don’t ever gain blindsense.

    Finally, the build seems to imply that you get a full two-weapon attack at the end of your charge via Two-Weapon Pounce, but you only get one attack with each weapon. Not a deduction, but it is enough to keep me from adding on a big bonus for it.


    ELEGANCE: 3.5
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    The build absolutely sticks to a theme - the masked samurai, the howling dragon tying in with sonic damage and Deafening Strike, etc. Well done on that end.

    That said, the mid-build alignment shift doesn’t sit too well with me. I know it can happen, but lawful to chaotic is a big (and sudden) jump.


    USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT: 3.5
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    You make better use of Dragonfire Strike and its improved cousin than most builds here, thanks to your draconic heritage and your build tactics. You seem to be benefiting a fair bit from Draconic Senses - except that Dragontouched is not a draconic feat, meaning that you don’t actually get the full benefit, so I can't give you points on that one.

    No great benefit from Master’s Gift, and your tactics make True Stealth rely on invisibility, which you can’t reliably supply yourself. Still, having True Stealth doesn’t hurt, and you do have a decent Hide/MS. Also, you get a small bonus because the flavor of your build really ties in well with the SI.


    TOTAL: 14.5


    Ssejternocki
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    ORIGINALITY: 3.5
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    Dragonstalker was unexpected, and I like the idea of a Hand of the Winged Master being used to hunt down other dragons. Poison dusk lizardfolk is interesting but under-utilized here. Everything else is mostly standard fare.


    POWER: 3.5
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    OK, to start we’ve got the choice of race. I love poison dusk lizardfolk, but the only way you end up utilizing them is by the natural attacks, which could be garnered from races without LA, or could be picked up via feats, templates, etc. It doesn’t even seem like it’s that strongly tied to the flavor of the build. I’ll call it a wash and not penalize you for it, since you DO use the natural weapons, but I really feel like this could be better.

    Penetrating strike is always appreciated, as that gives you something useful to do against normally SA-immune enemies, so you definitely get a bump there. I’m also happy to see Pierce Magical Concealment make an appearance, and Staggering Strike is always a wonderful debuff. And if you can get your hands on a mouthpick weapon (see Elegance), you can throw around quite a few attacks.

    On the other hand, you’re dealing significantly less SA damage than you would as a straight rogue. Even against dragons, where you’ve got your accelerated SA progression from Dragonstalker, you’re just barely keeping up and need Dragonfire Strike (which any rogue could take) to keep pace.


    ELEGANCE: 1.5
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    You dip a single level of thug fighter in a rogue build solely to enter the SI at an earlier level. I don’t ordinarily penalize dips out of hand, but that’s a bit excessive. Your build really relies on a rare and, at many tables, disallowed weapon enhancement to keep pace with damage (mouthpick), and you also look to get the effects of a Sword of Subtlety applied to a necklace of natural attacks.

    You’ve also got a write-up that’s full of typos, and several errors on your table (you’re missing Draconic Senses, you have your feats at the wrong levels). I’m basing the majority of my scoring on the actual content of your build, but as I mentioned in my judging criteria, presentation DOES matter.

    Finally, you fail to qualify for Dragontouched due to your low Charisma. Not only does this prevent you from even entering the SI (which I will not penalize for you here, since I’ll address that in UotSI), it also means you don’t qualify for Draconic Heritage, which is another key part of your build.


    USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT: 1
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    You fail to qualify for the SI (did not have the minimum Charisma required for Dragontouched), and therefore receive a minimum score here.


    TOTAL: 9.5


    Fergal
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    OK, before I start... how exactly are you flying? I’ve read over the build several times and can’t figure it out! You call yourself “Death on Dark Wings” and mention flying in your tactics, but unless I’m blind, there’s nothing here that gives you flight! It doesn't influence your score at all, but it leaves me wondering if I'm just missing something...

    ORIGINALITY: 2
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    You’re a whisper gnome rogue/swashbuckler assassin. That’s pretty well-trodden territory.


    POWER: 2.5
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    At the very lowest levels, before you take your first level of swashbuckler, you’re really not going to be doing much of anything with a Strength of 9 and no weapon finesse. You also wait until oddly late in the game (level 12) to even begin picking up the TWF tree.

    Other than that, you’re a fairly standard roguish character, except with lower SA. Your assassin spells help some in the mid-game, although more levels in assassin for better spells and SA damage would really add a lot of zing to this build. Your stealth is above average, though, mostly thanks to your race - the small size and racial bonuses, alongside your silence SLA, really make you stand out as far as stealthy characters go.

    Swapping out your familiar for an AC is not allowed by the rules of the game (see Elegance), but even if your DM did allow it, you’d have a pretty poor companion/flanking partner. Obtain Familiar grants a familiar based on your arcane caster level (a measly 3), and the ACF you referenced would further reduce your effective druid level by half, leaving you with a level 1 animal companion.

    And, of course, there’s the ever present issue that you don’t really have anything to do against SA-immune enemies.


    ELEGANCE: 1.5
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    On the good side of things, the build does flow fairly well, other than the bumpy start that is so common among rogues. Rogue/swashbuckler/assassin is well-worn territory, but it’s so common for a reason - it simply works, both thematically and from a play perspective.

    On the bad side of things, you use the feat Skill Knowledge to gain access to knowledge (arcana). Skill Knowledge is actually a part of UA’s variant skill system, and is designed around a skill system where you only have access to a small fraction of “known” skills. Mixing it in with the standard skill system as a way to add a new class skill is iffy at best.

    You try to swap out your familiar for an animal companion to give you a flanking partner, but unfortunately that’s not feasible - what you are describing is an alternate class feature of the wizard and sorcerer class. It isn’t an option available to anyone who picks up a familiar.

    You also show your snake with different feats than a stock snake comes with. I also see Psychic Reformation listed on your sources. Are you using Psychic Reformation to swap out its feats? If so, that’s treading territory that isn’t well accepted at many tables. Furthermore, it wouldn’t allow you to swap out weapon finesse, which is a racial bonus feat and not eligible for PsyRef.

    Finally, the build seems very item-dependent (including rare items such as legacy items) - collars of umbral metamorphosis for you and your pet, tattoos of chameleon power, scrolls of AMF and Solid Fog, Deathstrike Bracers, an Umbral Awn, etc.


    USE OF THE SECRET INGREDIENT: 3
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    You’re one of the few builds here that natively makes use of Master’s Gift (ie, without requiring items or a friendly caster). You also make better use of True Stealth than most, since you can easily eat the penalty it gives you to your Hide and Move Silently.

    Of course, most of what you can do comes from your other classes, your race and your items. Heck, the build you chose for a snapshot was a build without a single level of the secret ingredient! So, the above abilities augment at best, rather than taking center stage.


    TOTAL: 9
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  23. - Top - End - #113
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    ThiagoMartell's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    Quick tally before Mr Ponies updates his table:
    1st Raijin 29
    2nd SCP 25
    2nd Dokar 25
    4th Ssejternocki 21
    4th Phillius 21
    6th Long Sha 20.5
    7th Fergal 18.5

    Looks like Raijin is getting quite ahead of the competition.

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Dusk Eclipse's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    I'm actually doing better that I expected, that makes me quite happy
    Just call me Dusk
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    Dming: Eyes of the Lich Queen IC OOC


  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Quick tally before Mr Ponies updates his table:.
    Ty sir, a gentleman and a scholar! Those are the totals I had as well.

    {table=head]Entry|Place|Total|Average
    Raijin|Gold|29|3.625
    SCP|Silver|25|3.125
    Dokar|Silver|25|3.125
    Ssejternock|Fourth|21|2.625
    Phillius|Fourth|21|2.625
    Long Sha|Sixth|20.5|2.5625
    Fergal|Seventh|18.5|2.3125[/table]

    My judging is underway. Hopefully I can break some of these ties.
    Last edited by OMG PONIES; 2012-10-23 at 03:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
    Ponies, the Kim Karsdashian of GITP.
    This is what happens when they let me DM:
    Beyond the Horizon IC / OOC
    A Time to Die: Alpha IC / Bravo IC / OOC

  26. - Top - End - #116
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    It's funny, I made a point of not reading Thiago's judging until I finished mine, and yet somehow we came up with eerily similar scores...
    Optimization Showcase in the Playground

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    IC XLIX: Babalon, Queen of Bones
    IC XLV: Dead Mists
    IC XL: Lycus Blackbeak
    IC XXXIX: AM-1468
    IC XXXV: Parsifal the Fool
    IC XXX: Jal Filius

  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    I was trying to put together a Scout/Warblade using Press the Advantage to keep every melee attack skirmish, but it came on to late in the build to be relevant.

  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    Completely off topic. I was thinking back to the spontanious forum maintanance, and wondering if there should be something added to the official rules that if the forum is shut down for more than X time, that the Challenge be extended by Y or something. In other news, I'll have an extra long weekend coming up, so I'm hoping to hop into the next challenge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hashmir View Post
    When I die, I donate my body to the cause of whatever ******* finds it first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodgruve View Post
    Really though, how effin scary would the beach be if an octopus could launch itself outta the water at a 200' move speed every 6 seconds. I'd never go to the beach again... I thought flying sharks were scary...
    Blood~

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    I haven't read anyones scoring yet, but have yet to start my own scoring, I should do that...
    Doug

    Currently GMing :
    Moonshae Mysteries IC / OOC / Central Map / west rooms map / east rooms map
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  30. - Top - End - #120
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXVIII

    SCP's backstory would be even more awesome if the entry had been dual-submitted to the SCP site as well, so that it would have a well-defined SCP number. It could be the hand of SCP-682, perhaps.

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