Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

[NineThePuma]

I think we -might- need more costume effects and enhanced armaments options. Anyone else think so, or is it just me?

[vasharanpaladin]

I think we -might- need more costume effects and enhanced armaments options. Anyone else think so, or is it just me?

I agree.

[NineThePuma]

I mean, I'm building a character who will have Nine costumes, minimum, and I need to make them all different instead of being 9 copies of the same thing. Unfortunately there's not a lot of competition for options.

[Snowfire]

I think we -might- need more costume effects and enhanced armaments options. Anyone else think so, or is it just me?

I disagree. Disagree quite strongly actually. The enhanced armaments cover just about all the basic options I can think of - if I'm missing something, do tell - and the number of costume effects that all base classes have access to is more than enough. Remember, these are the basic effects, what every MG could theoretically have access to. If you want the actual number of available costume effects, you're going to have to take PrCs into account. And when you do that we actually have nine.

[Selinia]

Full reply set (including a review of the lovely Ultimate Evoker Shining Princess) spending for when I am not dead tired. Contrary to the impression I might give from my post timestamps, I am not in fact a strange, stardust-powered nocturnal owl person, and at some point I do need sleep. For now, tossing out a few of the most urgently called-for points:

• Assault Illuminations have been called to my attention as mechanically broken, in the 'does not function' sense. Thanks for that, I'm not sure what I was thinking with 'Attack Action'. Regardless, Assault Illuminations are set to be properly re-worded: an assault illumination on its own is a standard action, but such an illumination may be used in place of a single attack in a full attack action, or in place of the attack at the end of a charge. No other forms of attack permit an Assault illumination - if you want to combine blasting with AoOs, Strikes (other than strikes that allow you to make a full attack to begin with), or the like, you're looking for Imbue.
• Fashionista added to the front page. Derp.
• The temporally misplaced Zodiac reference has been changed to Stargazer. Herp-Derp.

Additionally, I will state that the sorry state of affairs for costumes in terms of options to availability is presently bearing the brunt of my ToR-related focus, and Snowfire's point is the roadblock I kept coming around to. With the present state of the armament system, there are certain limits on how many effects can be added. In interest of cleaning up the options in a subsystem that has a great many of them, Enhanced Armament effects will soon no longer exist. Along with a few newcomers, all enhanced armament effects will be converted either into new Effects, or new Archetypes. In a similar vein, archetype restrictions on costume and device effects are set to be lifted (possibly with some exceptions). That alone will go a long way towards helping you differentiate two devices of the same archetype.

In any case, that is just a rough overview. I owe my latest vanishment to a combination of orientation programs for heading off to college and the dreaded Steam Summer Sale. On the bright side, rampant religious shenanigains with Theodora finally inspired me with a concept for that Cece PrC I mentioned a while back!

[Snowfire]

Contrary to the impression I might give from my post timestamps, I am not in fact a strange, stardust-powered nocturnal owl person, and at some point I do need sleep.

Wait, what? Then why did you make me buy all that stardust owl food!

Great to hear that you've got some more things in the works in regards to Effects/Archetypes and PrCs. I've got a few more ideas for the latter floating around actually that I will get around to writing at some point in the future, one of which is totally-not a blatant rip-off of the idea of Night Caste Solars. As a taste:

"Do not fear the dawn, for it comes openly in glory.
Do not fear the night, for it is your time of power.
Fear the twilight. For it creeps upon you unseen,
And sends you unto night eternal."

[NineThePuma]

While PrC only options are nice, they're also PrC only and I have a full 20 level build just focusing on making my costumes as sexy as possible. Fashionista + Radiant Armorer together is a surprisingly versatile combination that leaves me with 6 costume effects at a time as well as 9 devices and 9 costumes (three have been settled on: one is a fairly basic default costume with a Marksman weapon, one is only a prototype with the intent for it to be Magical Girl Batman, and the last is my Joke Costume which is a monkey suit that fights with a giant banana) I'm going to end up with 3 of each costume in terms of costume archetypes (and have a little bit of overlap in Devices), but the hard part is differentiating them because I have so many costume effects for each one that them overlapping is a significant issue. Having one or two effects that are common is okay, having them all be essentially the same is not. Having various Enhanced Armaments end up as Costume Elements is a good step and will hopefully open things up to less overlap.

[Qwertystop]

Keep in mind, there is that one ability from the Fashionista that destroys a costume until you repair it. You could use identical copies like quick-repairs.

[NineThePuma]

Considered the option and then discarded it: having copies would remove the cost of the sacrifice. It would essentially turn something WITH a cost into something without a cost.

[Qwertystop]

Considered the option and then discarded it: having copies would remove the cost of the sacrifice. It would essentially turn something WITH a cost into something without a cost.

The cost is one costume slot per recovery. Also, extra required downtime to get them all working again.

[AmberVael]

A few things I've noticed and wondered about while reading illuminations-

Some of the options for barriers mention using barriers to target someone rather than making an area... but there is no shape that does this. Is this an artifact of previous versions, or a hint of something that is intended to be there later?

For barricades barriers... if you want to pass through, you can pass through. If you don't want to pass through, you don't have to pass through. But what happens if something is inanimate? Does an object pass through or not? If stab through the barrier with a spear, is that fine? What about if I try and use a barricade as an umbrella- will I get soaked if I haven't spent 12 motes on it? And would it deflect hail just the same as the rain? What about falling boulders?

Assuming that you can use an assault illumination in a full attack, if I hit someone with a flare invocation on my first attack, then hit them with an iterative attack, does that trigger the flare? It is in the same action as the attack, though logically it would seem to be a different source of damage, since it is a distinct attack.


Edit: Also something on personas- for The Magician, you can create items. And there's a DC limitation, and a duration limitation which I can see. On the other hand... I can't see any kind of size limitation.
...is there anything preventing me from making Instant Palace, Just Add Empath?

Oh, and there isn't actually any wording that indicates that an Empath can change their illuminations. (Between levels, that is).

A few more additions to these items:

As it stands, Empaths either cannot change costume effects (as they don't prepare illuminations) or can change costume effects as a swift action (if you count changing personas as preparing illuminations). Either of these seems a little off. This was stated earlier in the thread, but it appears to have been overlooked.

What if you want to go unarmored? Say you have some monk levels in there, or some kind of casting ability, or just anything that penalizes you for wearing armor. Right now, trying to use that with magical girl just cuts out abilities from one or the other simply because all costumes count as armor, no matter what you do. My advice would be to make a fourth costume of some kind that does not count as armor. Perhaps something with a really low armor bonus, but also no penalties or max dex?

Empath just seems bare bones at the moment. I think it's nonetheless my favorite of the classes, but Champion is getting bonus enhanced armaments, and cartridges, and things like mettle and the meaning of courage. Stargazer gets complex formula, and luminous reservoir, and like Champion, a list of smaller but meaningful features. Empath just gets personas. Admittedly, personas are amazing... but it still feels a bit dry. I think they could use something more to fill out those levels, if only for flavor.

Heart of War is kinda crazy. With most of the fighter feats its okay, but once you introduce the better ones, things like Martial Study, it gets way better. Maybe too much better, once your number of known personas starts growing. Spend a feat to get multiple good feats? Who wouldn't do that?

[Lix Lorn]

Empath just seems bare bones at the moment. I think it's nonetheless my favorite of the classes, but Champion is getting bonus enhanced armaments, and cartridges, and things like mettle and the meaning of courage. Stargazer gets complex formula, and luminous reservoir, and like Champion, a list of smaller but meaningful features. Empath just gets personas. Admittedly, personas are amazing... but it still feels a bit dry. I think they could use something more to fill out those levels, if only for flavor.

I agree with all of this post, but this is one which I noticed when making the Shining Princess.

[Selinia]

*Selinia performs sneaky ninja partial update, avoids answering questions she is in no fit condition to answer at the moment. Apologizes for the delay - in the meantime, enjoy the expanded archetype list.*

[NineThePuma]

:D

I can now have 1 of each device archtype, which reduces the fear of overlap in that direction.

And the addition of "Unarmored" costumes addresses Monk concerns. It does make a Monk/Empath double dip Wis to AC, but hey, he's a monk, he needs all the help he can get.

[vasharanpaladin]

*immediately prepares a Motherless champion/Night Devil for if/when I ever get the chance to play*

Aura costume, Flexible device... prepare up dood, I ready to fight dirty.

[zhdarkstar]

Hmmmm...These updates may cause me to rethink some aspects of the Radiant Senshi PrC I'm working on. Aura armor brings up the same situation as the monk where you double dip evoking-stat to AC, once as armor bonus and again as deflection bonus. That's not even including the armor enhancement bonus from Sentai levels. I cut the Sentai progression from 3/4 to 1/2 to cap effective Sentai level at 16 by level 20. That also brings it more in line with the capstone bonus feat & sentai ability as they're Sentai 15 abilities.

I would appreciate any constructive feedback about the class. This is my first attempt at working with ToR material.

I think the next ToR PrC I'll work on after Radiant Senshi will be a spellshaper/evoker hybrid. I like how the two fit thematically with their relationship with the more "refined" spellcasters. I already have some experience with spellshaping because of factoring the Magician archetype for Sentai into my other Sentai PrCs.

[DrakeRaids]

Do costumes count as armor for effects that mention it? Like is a heavy costume literally 'heavy' typed armor, and the same for light and medium?

[AmberVael]

Do costumes count as armor for effects that mention it? Like is a heavy costume literally 'heavy' typed armor, and the same for light and medium?

Yes. Each costume description has a line that makes it count for its equivalent armor for all purposes.

Except Aura. Aura is not armor, which is the point.

[Moonwolf727]

I just had a thought about the Vile component actually. It probably isn't important but I feel like I should ask for clarification anyway.

If I were to deal enough nonlethal damage with a blast evoked using the Vile component to knock someone unconscious would that mean that, since Vile damage only heals under certain conditions unless I am mistaken, the person remains unconscious until they recieve the appropriate treatment or dies from starvation/thirst?

[sreservoir]

Flare [Empath, Stargazer]
There is a limit to the radiant power a mortal body can hold. Evokers are capable of regulating their personal flow of luminescence almost instinctively, but other creatures are far less fortunate. A blast with this foundation rolls damage as usual, dealing 1d8 damage for each mote of the illumination's cost. However, targets do not take this damage immediately. Instead, the blast lies dormant within them, discharging as soon as the target takes damage from another source. If the target does not take any damage within a number of minutes equal to the number of motes in this illumination's final cost, the latent energy dissipates harmlessly. Latent damage from multiple application of Flare blasts stacks. Any damage dealt with the same action as the blast, such as the weapon damage of an Assault illumination, does not trigger this effect. If the latent damage on a target is about to discharge, the evoker may choose to prevent the discharge as an immediate action.

do additional applications remain separate (and thus require one immediate action per blast), or does the damage stack (and only one immediate action is needed to prevent the whole stack from discharging)? if the latter, how do flare blasts by multiple evokers on the same target interact — can any of them stop the discharge, all of them, one of them with the consent of the others, they remain separate, or ??

(I'd suggest that the same flare blast stacks with itself, but multiple flare blasts stack separately, but)

Bombs [Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 2m/rank]
Radiant power is inherently unstable - it can be channeled, refined, and redirected, but its eventual eruption is all but inevitable. The illumination no longer requires an attack roll, instead allowing the magical girl to scatter a number of energy bundles equal to [2 * ranks] anywhere within a base range of 20'. Energy bundles may only be placed in unoccupied squares, and no more than one bundle may be placed in any given square. Whenever a creature enters an energy bundle's square, that bundle detonates with a blast radius of 5'. Targets within the area of effect can attempt a reflex save for half damage. At the beginning of the evoker's next turn, all remaining energy bundles detonate. Creatures caught in multiple simultaneous detonations only make a single saving throw, and only take the illumination's damage once, but the reflex save DC increases by +2 for every overlapping explosion beyond the first.

objects caught in simultaneous detonations, though, do they take the damage multiple times or also just once. (the text explicitly specifies "creatures" for an exception.)

Eruption [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 2m/rank]
Calling upon the maelstrom of radiant energy in a magical girl’s soul, this component converts a blast into a raw, unbridled eruption of power. The illumination gains a blast radius of 10’ per rank of this component, centered on you. The illumination no longer can be used at range, no longer requires an attack roll, and allows its targets the opportunity to make a Reflex save. On a successful save, the blast deals half damage.

out of curiosity, is there a reason it's 2m/rank for 10’/rank, and not 1m/5’/rank? the other explosion shape goes by 5’ increments, after all.

Chains, Cascade

given the limitation to one jump per rank, I can't imagine a situation (they might be exist, but they'd have to be kind of esoteric) where k ranks of chain is not inferior to k+1 ranks of cascade and k ranks of horizon. k ranks of chain has a maximum range of (30+15k) ft. and can hit k+1 targets, with some limitations on how much damage and how the targets are placed, whereas k+1 ranks of cascade with k ranks of horizon has a maximum range of (60×2^k) ft. (which is strictly greater and grows really fast), hits the same number of targets, and isn't as restricted in their arrangement and the damage each takes. both fail if the first attack roll you roll is terrible, but hitting a thing with a cascade blast isn't contingent on hitting everything before it.

Vile [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 5m]
Not all light is clean - the fires of Hell and the Abyss bear their own sickly radiance, and less scrupulous evokers can tap into that light to bright forth blasts of a terrible potency. Damage dealt by blast augmented with this effect is considered to be both evil-aligned and vile damage in addition to any other damage types it may possess. Non-evil evokers may make use of this component, but such a horrendous tool must be used with great care if they wish to carry on long with their alignment intact.

what, no cross-ref or explanationt for the special properties of vile damage?

Barricades [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
A powerful tool in the hands of those that know how to use it, the component of Barricades allows a tactician to partition a battlefield as she pleases – or a warrior to prevent the escape of her prey.

I actually really like this component, I think I've mentioned, but it's ... ambiguous and strange.

So long as the barrier's mote cost is at least 1m, the edge of the barrier is a quasi-solid object capable of blocking movement.

under what circumstances would it be less than 1m? wouldn't that be a not-valid illumination?

Moving through this edge costs 10 feet of movement, though this cost can be ignored with a successful strength check against a DC equal to the save DC of the evoker's illuminations.

okay, so, it blocks movement, except it only kind of impedes movement. so: if you're thrown at the barrier, does the edge count as 10 ft. of intervening space? if so, do you get halfway through if you run out of distance to be thrown 5 ft. in?

if you're falling, does the barrier count as 10 ft. of intervening space to slow your fall (but also as space for you to accelerate ??)?

(also that DC is already kind of high, but that's probably not unintentional.)

Alternately, a creature may force their way through the barrier regardless of speed or strength with a full-round action.

this option isn't useful for anyone with no less than a 5 ft. speed at the 10 ft. mark, so maybe move it down a few sentences?

If a creatures does not wish to pass through the barrier, they may interact with it as they would any solid surface, including climbing or standing on top of it.

under what circumstances are you allowed to decide whether you want to pass the barrier? if you're unconscious, it's just a 10-ft. intevening space, yes? does that mean you can't be dragged across a barricades barrier if you're not conscious? if you don't know it's there, can you still interact with it if you'd have wanted there to be a wall there?

(note that, as long as it's necessary for the creature to think about it, you either can't drag someone unconscious through it, or you can't drag them over it.)

(I'd prefer "it's solid unless you take the action to walk through.")

For every 3m of this barrier's cost, movement through the edge of the barrier costs an additional 5 feet and the DC to force through it increases by +2.

the DC becomes ridiculous really fast -- it's already 10 + stat + EL/2; after this, it becomes 10 + stat + EL/2 + 2*(EL/3), which comes out to about 10 + stat + 7/6EL, which [i]scales faster than 1:1 with evoker level[i] (without even trying) and is opposed by strength bonus, which scales at maybe about 2/5 of level if you're dedicating as much of resources as possible. keeping in mind that your evoker stat has no reason not to improve just as fast as an adversary's strength. so at 1st level, it's str+d20 vs your 10+stat (opponent forces through on a 10, 55%); at 6th level, it's already str+d20 vs 17+stat (opponent forces through on a 17, 20%); by 10th level, you have 21+stat, and if the opponent has been keeping up with strength at the same rate as you have on your evoker stat, that's success only on a natural 21 (i.e. that's not even possible) or they have to spend a full round. (and keep in mind that your evoker stat bonus can scale at +1/3 EL due to might surges, in place of the usual enhancement bonuses, and that's with a sane interpretation of the might component, which is poorly worded (see below).

If the barrier costs at least 12m, it is impassable without use of a strength check or a full-round action.

by the time you have a 12m barrier, the strength check is p much impossible anyway -- your base DC is 16, you have an additional +8 for the 12m, so the evoker stat is going to have be be at least 4 less than the strength.

I'm not convinced that's not intentional, though, so eh.

Despite its seeming solidity, a barrier with this component does not affect targeting or line of effect in any way.

Tempests [Empath, Stargazer]
Not all great barriers in the world are forged of brick and mortar. A mighty storm of ice and snow can bar passage for thousands, and no sane sailor would cast off when the seas are roused. Crafting her power in emulation of such might wardens, a magical girl can engulf a battlefield in a tempest of her own devising. So long as the barrier's mote cost is at least 1m, the interior of the barrier experiences torrential precipitation that inflicts a -4 penalty on Spot and Search checks to find anything contained within. Traditionally, this takes the form of snowflakes, and act as such - but almost any replacement is theoretically possible. If the barrier costs at least 5m, heaps and drifts of material begin to pile up, and the movement cost to enter any space contained within the barrier doubles. If the barrier costs at least 10m, any creature within the barrier must make a reflex save whenever they move more than half their speed to avoid falling prone in the final square of their movement. If the barrier costs at least 15m, movement costs within the barrier are quadrupled, rather than doubled.

does this interact with barricades?

Pilgrimage [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 1m/rank]
Boosting the cohesion and longevity of a barrier, this component allows the range of an illumination to be dramatically increased. For each rank of the Pilgrimage component applied to an illumination, its base range doubles. This does not affect the radius, length, or other measurements of any potential Shape effects, and does not benefit illuminations whose Shape does not specify a base range.

all existing shapes specify a base range, but okay, future-proofing, I guess.

Radiance [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 1m/rank]
Where evokers walk, light follows. One of the simplest of all components, the power of radiance allows an evoker to bring light into the dark places of the world. The interior of her barrier becomes brightly lit, and sheds bright light 10' beyond its borders, and shadowy illumination for twice that distance. For each rank of this component beyond the first, the radius of bright light (and consequently, shadowy illumination) doubles. Multiple doublings stack as usual - for example, a barrier with three ranks of this component sheds bright light in a radius of 30', and shadowy illumination for 30' beyond that. This effect counters or dispels any darkness spell with a spell level equal to or less than half the number of ranks in this component.

not seeing how that example relates to multiple doublings -- there's really only one doubling in this component anyway, though.

Might [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
The ideal warrior has no weakness, but even the most rigorous training will leave sometimes leave one cursing that their skills are hindered by their own feeble body. Unsurprisingly, given how young many evokers are when they first begin to wield their power, one of the most common surge components is one to reinforce and fortify natural potential. The recipient of the surge receives a +2 Enhancement bonus to an ability score chosen when the illumination is crafted. For every 3m of the illumination's cost, the evoker may add a +2 Enhancement bonus to another ability score. The same ability score can be chosen for this boost multiple times, and its effects stack.

the last line is problematic: it implies that, say, if we extend the duration through echoes, and then we use the illumination twice, we get double the enhancement bonus. intention is probably only once, but it stacks with the rest of the +2.

[I'm stopping here because I need to sleep]

Enhanced Armaments
Whenever an evoker gains a rank of the Enhanced Armaments class feature and chooses to improve her costume, she may choose from the following effects. Unless otherwise noted, a single enhancement can be taken multiple times.

Device Archetypes

?? the enhanced armaments lists disappeared, it looks like.

[Raineh Daze]

I have to admit I can't make sense of something.

Enhancements are listed on a table in the equipment post, for costumes. This in no way syncs up with Enhanced Armaments. Cartridges need effects to boost, but there's no effect to boost according to the Champion table. There is according to the Armaments section, but then what the hell does Enhanced Armaments do?

So what, exactly, do these differing indications all mean?

[Regalus]

Ignore this

[Raineh Daze]

Cartridges boost Costume effects, not Enhanced Armaments. Each Costume Effect states the effect generated by expending a Cartridge on it in their entries.

The enhanced armament feature is currently being reworked into a new set of Costume Effects, mone of which have been posted as of yet. The class entries are expected to be updated once the conversion is completed.

Oh, so costume effects are independent? Ah.

Also, which of the following is true?

• At level 1 you have one effect for the Device or Costume
• At level 1 you have one effect each for the Device and Costume
• At level 1 you have one effect for the Costume alone

i.e., does the table give a number of effects to be applied to Device or Costume, or is it for the Costume alone?

[Regalus]

Cartridges boost Costume effects, not Enhanced Armaments. Each Costume Effect states the effect generated by expending a Cartridge on it in their entries.

The enhanced armament feature is currently being reworked into a new set of Costume Effects, mone of which have been posted as of yet. The class entries are expected to be updated once the conversion is completed. It should be noted that several EA's became individual weapon types as it is.

In the original paradigm, Enhanced Armaments altered the base stats of your Radiant Armaments personalizing them for your use. Costume Effects are entirely new special abilities you gain after assigning them to your Raidient armament.

Examples of each:

EA: +1 crit multiplier, remove 1 armor check penalty, increase damage dice size by 1, grant your Weapon reach.

CE: Gain flight, energy resistance, the ability to reroll checks, damage resistance, ect

Hope that clears things up.

[Raineh Daze]

Yeah, that makes sense. It doesn't answer the question I just asked--is Costume Effects a misnomer, and does the number on the table give a pool to be split between Device and Costume?

[Snowfire]

Yeah, that makes sense. It doesn't answer the question I just asked--is Costume Effects a misnomer, and does the number on the table give a pool to be split between Device and Costume?

The number on the table is for number of effects total. So at level one you have can choose any one element from the entire list. So yeah, it's a misnomer.

[Regalus]

Sport about that, my pc is being iffy and refuses to let me edit my previous post, after it had posted it ahead of time.

In any case, to put it simply you are mistaken. Currently the only class that gained EA's is the Champion, and it lists each level it gains one in the class proper. Costume Effects are gaiened separately in accordence to the Table in the Radiant Armament post.

As is each class gains one CE at level 1. The champion gains one EA every four levels.

[Raineh Daze]

The number on the table is for number of effects total. So at level one you have can choose any one element from the entire list. So yeah, it's a misnomer.

Ah, thank you for that. That's what I'm most interested in, where making a level 1 character is concerned.

[Dragonus45]

So i love this class, i love it so much. I have always adored magical girl shows, but no one else i know seems remotely interested in even reading it to see if its balanced or not. Can anyone think of any kind of advice for getting people to actually read these classes.

[Moonwolf727]

So i love this class, i love it so much. I have always adored magical girl shows, but no one else i know seems remotely interested in even reading it to see if its balanced or not. Can anyone think of any kind of advice for getting people to actually read these classes.

Tell them all about the stuff it can do and is like without mentioning it being based around magical girls at all. When they are really really excited for it, reveal what it is called and grin, telling them it would be fun if you could play a class from it. Hopefully they will be enraptured enough to agree and let you.