Players telling lies to players

[scurv]

Am I wrong to take it personal when players lie to me in the player to player sort of way in Roleplay heavy MMO servers?

[Andreaz]

Am I wrong to take it personal when players lie to me in the player to player sort of way in Roleplay heavy MMO servers?

You will have to be more specific than that.

[Shir]

It depends. If you are angry at a character-to-character lie, you may be unjustified. If the rogue found the loot he has every right to pocket as much as he wants before presenting his find to the party for "equal" sharing even if OOC you know he cheated.

On the other hand, if a player is lying to you you may be justified on case-by-case basis. Sandbagging skills, talents, items is acceptable. Misrepresenting game states or out of game info is not.

[scurv]

Player to player lie. There was nothing ic about it, Save the topic at hand

[Iceforge]

again, please be more specific, you are being needlessly vague now, which makes it impossible for anyone to evaluate the situation in any way resembling objectively.

As a matter of fact, you being as vague as you are now, sort of makes me personally lean towards you probarly being in the wrong.

My experience tells me that when someone is being needlessly vague about a situation like this, it is because they are in the wrong, but want to deceive others into confirming that they are not in the wrong, a sort of powering a self-delusion

[Kelb_Panthera]

Whether or not lying is wrong depends on too many factors to make a judgement without specifics.

Whether your anger is justified depends on who you're angry at and what the other person lied about.

All I can say without more info is that it's rarely unreasonable to be angry with yourself for not seeing through the lie sooner.

[Andrewmoreton]

People lie to each other all the time . Thats life , live with it.
Lying in the context of a game is even more normal and in fact is often required for proper role playing. I lie to other players when ever necessary

[Driderman]

This may come as a surprise to you but on the internet, people lie all the time.

[Machinekng]

As a GM, I generally frown on player-to-player lying. It's one thing for a player to have a secret they want to protect (if they okay it with the GM first), but it's another thing lying about character stats or info.

Rule of Thumb: If the GM doesn't know about it, it doesn't exist.

[Slipperychicken]

What did s/he lie about?

[Dr.Epic]

This may come as a surprise to you but on the internet, people lie all the time.

That's a lie!!!

[Slipperychicken]

That's a lie!!!

I've had enough of your disingenuous assertions!

[attempts to punch Dr. Epic... misses]

[Dr.Epic]

I've had enough of your disingenuous assertions!

[attempts to punch Dr. Epic... misses]

This! Is! SPARTA!

See, I can link videos to youtube too!

[invinible]

You are definitely not in the wrong here as any out of character information reguarding a game that is being played by multiple people needs to be truthful told between players if it should be, have another player look for the information if it is meant to be found but not told, or be kept secret if meant to be discovered in game. Where as, lying about any of that information undermines the whole game.

[Gamer Girl]

Well, you might be wrong.

If your coming from the idea that every RPG player is both a saint and angel so all game information should be shared openly in a big group hug, then yes you are wrong.

The reality is that not all players are good. So if you tell a player ''one billion dollars is in box seven'' then ask their character to pick a box in the game, at least half of the players will ''amazingly'' pick box seven.

The truth is that many players can separate game information from character information. And they only way to stop abuse and cheating, is not not tell or even lie to the players.

[TuggyNE]

Well, you might be wrong.

If your coming from the idea that every RPG player is both a saint and angel so all game information should be shared openly in a big group hug, then yes you are wrong.

The reality is that not all players are good. So if you tell a player ''one billion dollars is in box seven'' then ask their character to pick a box in the game, at least half of the players will ''amazingly'' pick box seven.

The truth is that many players can separate game information from character information. And they only way to stop abuse and cheating, is not not tell or even lie to the players.

How does this (DMs concealing all possible out-of-game information because all players are cheaters*) relate in any way to player-to-player communication (dealing with others' deception for reasons unspecified)?

Really, though, it's impossible to tell from the OP's information whether he has unreasonable expectations or not; we need more details.

*The situation given is kind of a lousy one; there's no point in blatantly sharing all possible metagame information, certainly, but neither does that mean the DM should hoard every last datum that could in any way encourage out-of-character thinking — for example, withholding HP figures for PCs, avoiding any and all monster descriptions, or not telling casters how big a room is so they're unable to strategize spell placement.

[SowZ]

I run games where PvP, player secrets, and ulterior motives are all fair game so players telling mistruths to one another is totally cool. Misleading people OOC to avoid them getting meta-knowledge they can use in game against them is sporting.

For the game I am running right now AND for this group I am running, I have never run a campaign where at least one person hasn't betrayed the party, hehe. So manipulation is second nature.

Is what you are offended about normal for the group? It may be allowed in the social contract.

[Gamer Girl]

How does this (DMs concealing all possible out-of-game information because all players are cheaters*) relate in any way to player-to-player communication (dealing with others' deception for reasons unspecified)?

It's the same. Say Bill has a werewolf character. The players know this, but the character's do not. You will still have the players that ''goof up'' either by mistake or on purpose and say he is a werewolf, though the character does not know. Worse can be the annoying whiny player that will just endlessly complain that they are not allowed to use what they know ("Hey he can turn into a wolf and track them, oops, oops, sorry I don't know that..hehe")

And it sucks all the mystery and fun out of role playing. if as a player, you are just blandly told all the details, then why even role play. It's much more fun when you learn Dark Lord is character A's father by playing the game, instead of just being told that with a ''oh, but remember your character's don't know, so just pretend like you don't know.''

And finally, lies are normal between people. It's not like the players swear to tell the truth. Most people lie about things. So why are gamers held to some high standard?

[SowZ]

It's the same. Say Bill has a werewolf character. The players know this, but the character's do not. You will still have the players that ''goof up'' either by mistake or on purpose and say he is a werewolf, though the character does not know. Worse can be the annoying whiny player that will just endlessly complain that they are not allowed to use what they know ("Hey he can turn into a wolf and track them, oops, oops, sorry I don't know that..hehe")

And it sucks all the mystery and fun out of role playing. if as a player, you are just blandly told all the details, then why even role play. It's much more fun when you learn Dark Lord is character A's father by playing the game, instead of just being told that with a ''oh, but remember your character's don't know, so just pretend like you don't know.''

And finally, lies are normal between people. It's not like the players swear to tell the truth. Most people lie about things. So why are gamers held to some high standard?

Absolutely. In the last game I ran, Player A was a clone and knew it. One other member of the party was trying to find out all campaign if he was an original or a clone since it would greatly affect her decisions towards player A. Player A tried to confuse her both in and out of game to trip her up and keep her doubting both conclusions. Great fun had by both and all that sleuthing would have been much more empty if she, (the one detectiving,) knew out of character and had to go through the motions in character to confirm her OOC knowledge.

(PS. Don't you love it as a DM when you can be lazy since players will clash and just interact, coming up with more intriguing player/player interaction than you could come up with for them despite planning all week? I find allowing and sometimes encouraging ulterior motives and misleading info both OOC and iC increases the odds of this happening.)

[Killer Angel]

As a GM, I generally frown on player-to-player lying. It's one thing for a player to have a secret they want to protect (if they okay it with the GM first), but it's another thing lying about character stats or info.

Well, we have seen many threads regarding rogue-type pretending to be paladins... this can require the player lying to the other players (also out of game) 'bout the character and its real skills, abilities, and so on.

[scurv]

again, please be more specific, you are being needlessly vague now, which makes it impossible for anyone to evaluate the situation in any way resembling objectively.

As a matter of fact, you being as vague as you are now, sort of makes me personally lean towards you probarly being in the wrong.

My experience tells me that when someone is being needlessly vague about a situation like this, it is because they are in the wrong, but want to deceive others into confirming that they are not in the wrong, a sort of powering a self-delusion

Thank you for the call out there, It means alot.

But to make this a short story.

Player me
Player fib
Player Mom

Player me asked player fib if they knew what they were doing was not in accordiance with the established rules.

Player fib said rules were changed to permit what he was doing

Player mom Got back to me and said player fib does this and he is full of crap,

Sorry about the vagueness, I was on some pills and getting away from stupid.

But my simple question was
IF player fib lies to me, and I correct to feel upset, You seemed to have evaded that topic so what are you hideing?

<edit> A person could also have twenty years of experance in dealing with opsec matters and as a matter of habit does not give out potently compromising infrormation

[TuggyNE]

Player me asked player fib if they knew what they were doing was not in accordiance with the established rules.

Player fib said rules were changed to permit what he was doing

OK, yeah, there's pretty clearly no excuse for attempting to evade rules by lying, whatever the proper role of deception in player-player relations may be.

Although I must say I'm a little puzzled that he would be lying to you, specifically, unless you have some kind of relevant authority.

[hymer]

That's easy, tuggyne. You don't let the potential snitch think he's right in there being a reason to snitch. Or, less cynically, if someone points out you're wrong, you either comply with the rules or dispute that you're wrong. If you're cheating, disputation is the obvious way to go.

[ReaderAt2046]

Thank you for the call out there, It means alot.

But to make this a short story.

Player me
Player fib
Player Mom

Player me asked player fib if they knew what they were doing was not in accordiance with the established rules.

Player fib said rules were changed to permit what he was doing

Player mom Got back to me and said player fib does this and he is full of crap,

Sorry about the vagueness, I was on some pills and getting away from stupid.

But my simple question was
IF player fib lies to me, and I correct to feel upset, You seemed to have evaded that topic so what are you hideing?

<edit> A person could also have twenty years of experance in dealing with opsec matters and as a matter of habit does not give out potently compromising infrormation

Yeah, I think we misunderstood. If he was lying about the rules then that's unacceptable. I thought he was hiding something from you because he was hiding it from your character.

[Slipperychicken]

Yeah, I think we misunderstood. If he was lying about the rules then that's unacceptable.

Seconded. Lying about rules is immoral, and equivalent to cheating.

[DontEatRawHagis]

If a player is lying for personal gain and does it a lot of the time he is cheat. Its alright to be upset about it. In MMO's I find it hard to not follow the rules. Especially with RP servers. I only was given a warning because I got bored one day and didn't do anything but quote Doctor Who.

Your just going to have to live with it I guess, RP groups in MMOs are hard to manage.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Although I must say I'm a little puzzled that he would be lying to you, specifically, unless you have some kind of relevant authority.

Most likely, so that he wouldn't get reported. Players do have the authority to draw the attention of Mjolnor the Banhammer.

[Gamer Girl]

But to make this a short story.

Does whatever game your playing have a GM or Judge or Whatever? Or is your game just a 'game of equal players'.

If your all just 'equal players', then any player can lie or cheat or steal or really do whatever they want. This is one of the big reasons why games have GMs.

If you game does have a GM, have you mentioned this to them?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Seconded. Lying about rules is immoral, and equivalent to cheating.

Lying about the rules isn't equal to cheating. It is cheating.

Give the cheating bastard the boot. (I'm not sure if I mean that figuratively or not.)

Seriously, there was a time when cheaters were commonly shot when they got caught. I'm not saying we should go back to that (I think), but that's how unacceptable cheating is.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Does whatever game your playing have a GM or Judge or Whatever? Or is your game just a 'game of equal players'.

It's an MMO with an RP server, so it has mods and admins, who are the authority structures.

If your all just 'equal players', then any player can lie or cheat or steal or really do whatever they want. This is one of the big reasons why games have GMs.

I actually disagree. Most GMless games out there only work when the players enforce an authority structure: they regulate one another. But that's a topic for another time and place.