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2012-11-01, 04:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Truespeak as it should have been done *in progress*
1. Introduction
Welcome ladies and gentlemen (and their awakened animal couterparts or even extraterrestial beings who happen upon this thread). A long time ago I read the book about magicusers and truenamers and was incredibly disappointed when I saw that truenaming actually sucked. hard. so disappointed i threw truenaming aside in pursuit of better classes (like my two favorites the Bard and the Warlock) but the truenaming thing always stuck to the back of my head. Oh the longing for a system where the mastery of language trylu mattered.
But then came Skyrim. Where the hero of the hour fought dragons and used their very weapons against them. Where language really is about knowledge (and having enough dragonsouls to employ them) and skill. It filled my head with hope again, but alas it's not a system for DnD 3.5 (my first tabletop system ever played). Until recently I saw a thread on someone who wanted to build Dovahkiin for a game, and there it went. Fusion in my frain took the Truenamer and Thuúm and fused them together into an idea that would actually work quite right.
So here it is, a homebrew on discarding truespeak and gaining Thu'um. I wish you happy shouting at your table and earplugs for your gamingbuddies
2. Meta-information
This is not about how Truenamers suck. If you want to know how truenamers suck, seek out Zaq and try to understand while still keeping your ability to taste ice-cream. This homebrew will be all about the Thu'um of Dovahkiin and how to employ the system in your game. Before everyone starts to comment I'd first like to reserve a few posts so I don't tun out of space and can deliver a nicely structured homebrew. this homebrew will discuss the following points:
- the resource system
- effects
- adapting through classes
- fluff
- balance (I will need your help with this)
3. About Thu'um
Thu'um is the language of dragons. By speaking Thu'um you conjure magical effects dpeneding on what you say. In game mechanics this means that saying the word 'Fus' conjures a force. IN Skyrim you can unlock 3 levels of power for every concept, counted by syllables. For force that means Fus can go up to Fus-Ro-Dah, each syllable increasing the power of the conjured force. In terms of DnD mechanics it seems as if the added syllables are a form of empowering and maximizing the effects of the word.
Other words (like the word Iiz for ice form) don't so much get empowered or maximised, but get harder to resist and persist longer in effects, much like the heighten en persistent spell metamagic. There are many more words and effects each usning it's own form of metalanguage to strengthen the effect of the word.
However, with stronger shouts come longer cooldowns.
4. Resource system
Different options exist for cooldowns or resourcesystems to be used. Below I will first adress the cooldown aspect (or the I-can't-really-do-this-at-will-all-the-time-aspect). Later on I will adress the windup of using shouts (a.k.a. the action economy).
4.1. Cooldowns
Cooldowns are an importaint aspect of Skyrim. The problem is that cooldowns don't really work that well in DnD given that most combats don't really go beyond 5 rounds (and that is pushing it). So come the question: Should a shout only be used once per day like a wizards prepared spells? Or should he be able to use them once per encounter? Or like a breathweapon? By spending points like psionics?
Prepare your vocal chords!
SpoilerThis is how Jack Vance would have devised it. In the mornign you wake up, get dressed and practice your voice like a singer would to prepare certain shouts to be used. You ahve with you your phrasebook like a highschooler learning French, Spanish or any other language and prepare as if you have a test today, filling brainsells (or 'slots') with phrases. Once used you can't use it again, unless you have prepared the same shout in another slot.
Advantages: easy to balance, challenges the player to be creative with the shouts he/she has prepared.
Disadvantages: some shouts are more useful (on a meta level) then others. so in effects it's hard to balance. And how to handle the added syllables? levels? How many slots are ok to use? Phrasebook? Really? A dictionary as greatest possession?
Practice makes perfect
Spoilerhave you read Tome of Battle? the you know this one. this is the maneuver system. You know a lot of cool moves, but you need to meditate to be able to execute them. Once you have used a cool move you can't use it for the remainder of the encounter unless you spend some time concentrating on refreshing your moves.
Advantages: flexible. reusable when needed, limiting of instawin moves usable per encounter. not limiting what you can do on a day.
disadvantages: Which recollection to use: Warblades? Swordsages? Crusaders? or a custom one? What woudl govern how many you know?
Multiple encounters per day don't actually tire out the player unless you target a situation he hasn't prepared for.
"hey, where has my manabar gone?"
SpoilerLike the sorcerer or the psion. You have a certain collection of resourcepoints/free slots and you can spend them on Thu'um uses. Higher level Thu'um or more syllables use more or more powerful resources. Quite balanced? or is it?
Advantages: no unlimited uasages a day. You can go out of resources while an encounter is underway. You can choose to put more effort into some encounters then others, basically allowing your prowess throughout the day like a businessman
Disadvantages: Some words can wreck someone instantly. Supercharge them and even a god would cower. (see mailman or psion shenanigans). How many resources are enough? What would the costs be? How reasonable is to just allow someone to use his win button over and over again?
"legend-wait for it... ...Dary!"
SpoilerAn actual cooldown. it does exist in DnD. Much like the breathweapons, you'll need to roll the cooldown to know when you can use your breathweapon again. Stronger Thu'um will have bigger cooldown dice, more syllables would add flat rounds to cooldowns.
Advantages: it is actually quite logical to use, even Skyrim uses it. though for another reason then DND uses it. In videogames (most notably games with RPG elements) cooldowns are an easy way to simulate a fatigue effect. You'll need to wait until you can do that trick again. Using resources like mana (spellslots) is a similar technique, It's the only way to stop PC's from going "LOL set everything on fire!" or spamming other stuff.
Disadvantages: You might just be able to shout only once while it could just be your main schtick during combat. It's also very limiting the concept.
Out of these options my preference goes out to the "Practice makes perfect" (or, ToB method) with recovery to take a full round, concentration against damage when interrupted (like when a wizard needs to keep up his casting while attacked). It gives the feel of abundancy, while nudging to use different shouts and giving the illusion of depletable resources. With this kind of mechanic dovahkiin would seem like a mix of warblade and warlock, the bladelock so you will
4.2. action economy
So, during a turn you have various actions:
- Free (like talking)
- Immedeate (like a response, uses swift action for the next turn)
- Swift (once per turn)
- Move (1 per turn)
- Standard action (1 per turn)
- Full round action (+5 ft. step, 1move+1std./2move, including free actions and 1 swift action)
the funny thing is, you can use any action in the same manner if you spend your action lower on the list. for instance: using a standardaction to move, swift as a standard action, etc.
Now, in Skyrim using Thu'um takes some time. but since som concentration is involved (you need to speak the words and focus your will through them) it would take more time then just talking. In skyrim this is solved by adding some sort of casttime. typically it's 1-2 seconds. This would lead me to believe that using Thu'um is typically a swift action. this would clash however with the action economy where you could breath fire down your enemies' throat and whacking him with a full attack. Besides, if you try to improve the Thu'um by adding syllables (lvls 2 and 3 of the word) you take longer.
So for balancing purposes (as well as a tiny bit of realism) I'm going with 1 syllable (lvl1 shout) -> swift action, 2 syllables (lvl 2 shout)-> as move or standard action, lvl 3 shout -> full round action. Before people tend to go shouting incoherently at the start of combat, 1 shout per person, per round.
obviously shouting doesn't seem attractive (especially the higher lvl ones) now, but with feats and/or classfeatures you can shout quicker and more frequently. Besides, the lvl 1 shouts will be hardly noticable at a certain level, while the higher level shouts will be much stronger.
*this part is done for now. PEACH pls, more will follow in the posts below*Last edited by Socratov; 2012-11-02 at 05:49 AM.
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First Ordained Jr. Tormlet by LoyalPaladin
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2012-11-01, 04:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Truespeak as it should have been done
5. Shouts
Area of Effect shouts
Spoiler
{table=head]{colsp=4}Fire Breath
Syllable(s)|Shouter lvl|Targeted Save|Effects
YOL|1st|REF|1d6+1/shouterlvl Fire damage as ray 15 ft.
TOOR|6th|REF|1d6/shouterlvl Fire damage as line 30 ft.
SHUL|12th|REF|2d6/shouterlvl Fire damage as cone 45 ft.
[/table]
{table=head]{colsp=4}Frost Breath
Syllable(s)|Shout lvl|Targeted Save|Effects
FOH|1st|REF|1d6+1/shouterlvl Cold damage as ray
KRAH|6th|REF|1d6/shouterlvl Fire damage as line 30 ft.
DIIN|12th|REF|2d6/shouterlvl Fire damage as cone 45 ft.
[/table]
{table=head]{colsp=4}Unrelenting Force
Syllable(s)|Shout lvl|Targeted Save|Effects
Fus|2nd|N/A|1d4+1/shouterlvl force damage as ray 15 ft.
ROH|7th|N/A|1d4/shouterlvl force damage as line 30 ft.
DAH|14th|N/A|2d4/shouterlvl force damage as cone 45 ft.
[/table]
{table=head]{colsp=3}Aura Whisper
Syllable(s)|Shout lvl|Effects
LAAS|2nd|Detect Magic as the spell, swift action to keep up
YAH|5th|Detect hostile creatures including number HD within 2ft/shouterlvl, costs a swift action to keep up
NIR|9th|Detect Thoughts as the spell, costs swift action to keep up
[/table]
Targeted Shouts
Spoiler
{table=head]{colsp=4}Dismay
Syllable(s)|Shout lvl|Targeted Save|Effects
FAAS|2nd|WILL|Frightened for remainder of encounter
RU|5th|WILL|Panicked for remainder of encounter
MAAR|7th|WILL|cowering for remainder of encounter
[/table]
{table=head]{colsp=4}Ice Form
Syllable(s)|Shout lvl|Targeted Save|Effects
IIS|2nd|FORT|Dazed for 3 rounds
SLEN|5th|FORT|Stunned 3 rounds
NUS|7th|FORT|Stunned and Prone for 5 rounds
[/table]
Self Targeted shouts
Spoiler
{table=head]{colsp=3}Elemental Fury
Syllable(s)|Shout lvl|Effects
SU|4th|Haste as the spell for 2 rounds
GRAH|8th|Haste as the spell for Shouterlvl/2 rounds
DUN|14th|+20 movement & Haste as the spell, for shouterlvl/2 rounds
[/table]
{table=head]{colsp=3}Slow Time
Syllable(s)|Shout lvl|Effects
TIID|5th|Extra standard action effective immeadeately
KLO|10th|Extra Round after the current round
UL|15th|Extra 2 rounds after the current round
[/table]
This Shout can not be recovered during an encounter. This shout can only be used once either whole or in part.
Utility shouts
Spoiler
{table=head]{colsp=3}Clear the Skies
Syllable(s)|Shout lvl|Targeted Save|Effects
LOK|1st|as spell|Gust of Wind as per the spell
VAK|6th|as spell|Capricious Zephyr as per the spell
KOOR|10th|N/A|Summon Zephyr
[/table]
Last edited by Socratov; 2012-11-21 at 02:38 AM.
Warlock Poetry?
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First Ordained Jr. Tormlet by LoyalPaladin
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2012-11-01, 04:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Truespeak as it should have been done
6. Feats
Originally Posted by Focused StyleOriginally Posted by VentriloquismOriginally Posted by Linguistic StudyLast edited by Socratov; 2012-11-02 at 06:20 AM.
Warlock Poetry?
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First Ordained Jr. Tormlet by LoyalPaladin
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2012-11-01, 04:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Truespeak as it should have been done
7. Shoutcasters
Or: classes that are focused on shouting (or at least very proficient in them)
*under contruction*
7.1. Greybeard[Base class]
Greybeard of High Hrothgar
{table=head]Level|Base Attack[br]Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|+0|+2|+0|+2|Class Ability
2nd|+1|+3|+0|+3|Class Ability
3rd|+1|+3|+1|+3|Class Ability
4th|+2|+4|+1|+4|Class Ability
5th|+2|+4|+1|+4|Class Ability
6th|+3|+5|+2|+5|Class Ability
7th|+3|+5|+2|+5|Class Ability
8th|+4|+6|+2|+6|Class Ability
9th|+4|+6|+3|+6|Class Ability
10th|+5|+7|+3|+7|Class Ability
11th|+5|+7|+3|+7|Class Ability
12th|+6|+8|+4|+8|Class Ability
13th|+6|+8|+4|+8|Class Ability
14th|+7|+9|+4|+9|Class Ability
15th|+7|+9|+5|+9|Class Ability
16th|+8|+10|+5|+10|Class Ability
17th|+8|+10|+5|+10|Class Ability
18th|+9|+11|+6|+11|Class Ability
19th|+9|+11|+6|+11|Class Ability
20th|+10|+12|+6|+12|Class Ability[/table]
Crunch
Spoiler]- HD: d4
- Skillpoints/lvl: 2+int
Fluff
SpoilerUp in the mountains are wize men, learned individuals who from a scholarly perspective study the Thu'um. By years of practice they master the language spoken by dragons. They live in High Hrothgar, a monastery on the snow white top of Hrothgar Mountain. It's cold environment provides nothing but harship to these people. They are truly the disciplined scholars.
Notes
SpoilerSkyrim is a truly harsh place. Even the scholars have a good fort save. They are, however, anything but athletic. and students of the language means a crisp mind so the saves are easily explained. My idea for the greaybeards was to have them be wizards, but of language instead of arcane effects. they will be granted a greater choice of powers then other classes and thus gain a great variability. It stands to reason that there where is study, there is intelligence as a main ability.
7.2. Shoutwarrior[Base class]
Dovahkiin
{table=head]Level|Base Attack[br]Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|+1|+2|+2|+0|Class Ability
2nd|+2|+3|+3|+0|Class Ability
3rd|+3|+3|+3|+1|Class Ability
4th|+4|+4|+4|+1|Class Ability
5th|+5|+4|+4|+1|Class Ability
6th|+6|+5|+5|+2|Class Ability
7th|+7|+5|+5|+2|Class Ability
8th|+8|+6|+6|+2|Class Ability
9th|+9|+6|+6|+3|Class Ability
10th|+10|+7|+7|+3|Class Ability
11th|+11|+7|+7|+3|Class Ability
12th|+12|+8|+8|+4|Class Ability
13th|+13|+8|+8|+4|Class Ability
14th|+14|+9|+9|+4|Class Ability
15th|+15|+9|+9|+5|Class Ability
16th|+16|+10|+10|+5|Class Ability
17th|+17|+10|+10|+5|Class Ability
18th|+18|+11|+11|+6|Class Ability
19th|+19|+11|+11|+6|Class Ability
20th|+20|+12|+12|+6|Class Ability[/table]
Crunch
Spoiler- HD: D12
- Skillpoints/lvl: 6+int
Fluff
SpoilerIn the cold hard lands of Skyrim once in an era a person is born with the soul of a dragon. No matter what race he is, he will have a natural disposition to speaking the language of dragons and with it conjure effects like breathing fire or ice. Kin of the dragons he is called Dovahkiin!
Notes
SpoilerDovahkiin is a warrior. He hits hard, is physically amazing (should focus on weaponized combat) and uses shouts to supplement his fighting. he can't use as many shouts as a greybeard, nor as varied, but he can sue them to great effect. Dovahkiin in TES is usually built on skills. He gets out here and I think he shoudl be able to at least use some skills, even when he dumps intelligence, else it wouldn't have that TES feel.
7.3. Dragon[Prestige Class]
and they are indeed still (mostly) figments of my imaginationLast edited by Socratov; 2012-11-07 at 05:58 AM.
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First Ordained Jr. Tormlet by LoyalPaladin
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2012-11-01, 04:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Truespeak as it should have been done
Reserved post #4 I think at least this one is still neccessary
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First Ordained Jr. Tormlet by LoyalPaladin
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2012-11-01, 04:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Truespeak as it should have been done
Reserved #5 This is for good measure
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First Ordained Jr. Tormlet by LoyalPaladin
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2012-11-01, 04:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Truespeak as it should have been done
Reserved #6: I may be needing this one. But now feel free to post if you want to help or have thoughts about this type of stuff.
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First Ordained Jr. Tormlet by LoyalPaladin
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2012-11-01, 07:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Truespeak as it should have been done *in progress*
It's been done. As a general rule I suggest learning from those who went before.
Other words (like the word Iiz for ice form) don't so much get empowered or maximised, but get harder to resist and persist longer in effects, much like the heighten en persistent spell metamagic. There are many more words and effects each usning it's own form of metalanguage to strengthen the effect of the word.
concentration against damage when interrupted (like when a wizard needs to keep up his casting while attacked)
This actually isn't true. Each round you can choose to gain either a full round action, a standard and move action or two move actions and you get a swift action regardless.
This would lead me to believe that using Thu'um is typically a swift action. this would clash however with the action economy where you could breath fire down your enemies' throat and whacking him with a full attack.
So for balancing purposes (as well as a tiny bit of realism) I'm going with 1 syllable (lvl1 shout) -> swift action, 2 syllables (lvl 2 shout)-> as move or standard action, lvl 3 shout -> full round action. Before people tend to go shouting incoherently at the start of combat, 1 shout per person, per round.
obviously shouting doesn't seem attractive (especially the higher lvl ones) now, but with feats and/or classfeatures you can shout quicker and more frequently. Besides, the lvl 1 shouts will be hardly noticable at a certain level, while the higher level shouts will be much stronger.
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2012-11-01, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Truespeak as it should have been done *in progress*
I like the idea of it costing higher tiers of action in order to manage a higher tier shout. The shout system should probably be tied to some kind of in-game bar, though, like spellcasting or maneuvers.
I can see this actually working fairly well with feats.
Example:
You are a level one human fighter, and can take up to three! feats without even dipping into flaws.
You look through the Tome of Thu'um, and see "Hey, I can take the Fus feat, and both improvements!"
Ok, so now your lv. 1 Human Fighter can Fus-ro-Dah. But that's the only one he knows. Alternatively, he could take Fus and Iiz and upgrade one of the two.
Because it costs a higher kind of action per, it can be done without a level gate on the shout improvements. I'm assuming here, though, that the damage from shouts would be based on hit die.
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2012-11-02, 05:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Truespeak as it should have been done *in progress*
thanks for those, I couldn't find them with the serach function down (and they didn't appear in the first 4 pages, so...)
Assuming you intend to keep somewhat in line with existing standards of duration, extending shouts will be almost entirely useless while persisting them will be incredibly overpowered. Alternate bonus option: Extending will be seen as the minimum level of actual competence and persisting will still be completely overpowered.This will largely keep Your dovakhin out of melee, which is odd since that's kind of the most common combat style in the game.This actually isn't true. Each round you can choose to gain either a full round action, a standard and move action or two move actions and you get a swift action regardless.
I don't see how this would clash with the action economy, it's the standard system for battle blessing paladins and many other gishes.This will develop into 3 distinct build styles. 'Full Casters' who use level 3 shouts almost exclusively. 'Gishes' who use level 1 shouts almost exclusively. And 'Gestalts' who, as the name suggests will exist largely in gestalt games and will use level 2 shouts as move actions almost exclusively(Outside of gestalt they could exist by using wands with their standard actions I guess. Or maybe as martial adepts). This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's something to be aware of.How attractive shouting is will depend entirely on how good the shouts are, the action economy is secondary at the moment.
as of now manuevers are the first mechanic to explore, but I don't expect it to end there and maybe use the breathweapon route or PP. I think a vancian system wouldn't really work out that well...I can see this actually working fairly well with feats.
Example:
You are a level one human fighter, and can take up to three! feats without even dipping into flaws.
You look through the Tome of Thu'um, and see "Hey, I can take the Fus feat, and both improvements!"
Ok, so now your lv. 1 Human Fighter can Fus-ro-Dah. But that's the only one he knows. Alternatively, he could take Fus and Iiz and upgrade one of the two.Because it costs a higher kind of action per, it can be done without a level gate on the shout improvements. I'm assuming here, though, that the damage from shouts would be based on hit die.
thank you for the critique thusfar, it will all add to a great piece of homevrew (i hope)Last edited by Socratov; 2012-11-02 at 05:31 AM.
Warlock Poetry?
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First Ordained Jr. Tormlet by LoyalPaladin
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2012-11-21, 02:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Truespeak as it should have been done *in progress*
Bit of a bump, but I have added some shouts. I find it hard to balance the values and levels.
On the one hand it's at the same levels as a wizard gets them, though they might not be as powerful. Second it is because they can only be used once per encounter (or sometimes once per day for the teleport/planeshift that is incoming). I'd like you to tell me when a shout is imbalanced and how to adress that problem (and if you woudl indulge me in a friendly manner please).
More shouts are on their way, but they take time since I have to do some formatting in a .txt before I can publish them and because some effects are stronger in DnD 3.5 while weak in Skyrim and vice versa.
You will notice that some shouts have a description referring to a spell, that is correct, since I'm too lazy to completely reinvent the circle when I'm trying to reinvent the wheel
Peach away brothers and sisters!Warlock Poetry?
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Better grab a drink...
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First Ordained Jr. Tormlet by LoyalPaladin
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2012-11-21, 01:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Truespeak as it should have been done *in progress*
Hm... well your status-inflicting shouts are better than all of your damage-inflicting shouts. I suggest not actually tying yourself to skyrim, and making shouts with low effects like shaken or +10 movement speed or entangled, and scaling those up. Haste, Daze, and Frighten are just stupidly good.
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2012-11-23, 07:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Truespeak as it should have been done *in progress*
hm... you've got a point there. However, damage can ramp up quickly by levels (up to a handful of d6's), and after a certain time people will have countermeasure against crowd control. I do think that tweaking the numbers could potentially balance things out more. I'll keep it in the back of my head when I have more shouts. (then I can think about shoutprogression vor the classes
Also, keep in mind that shouts are generally once per encounter and if a party encounters a single strong enemy and he/she/it fails the save then it's supposed to be bad for the enemy.Warlock Poetry?
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First Ordained Jr. Tormlet by LoyalPaladin