The Omnomnomicon [BIG magic system! PEACH!]

[Admiral Squish]

Quite an interesting concept. I'll be following this to see where it leads.

One quick correction: The cut for Quick Digits is listed as Fingers. I believe that should be Hand?

Dammit! This is like the third revision of the system, so problems like that are all but unavoidable.

[Admiral Squish]

Alright, thanks to Ashtagon, we have finally gotten the overweight trait right. Which means the Qu are now posted in their own thread! Go check them out!

[ScrambledBrains]

I must admit, I'm curious as to what you mean by the Gourmand's, 'can give extra bonuses to his allies under the effects of his dishes'. Because I can see two potential ways to do something along those lines, but I wanna determine which you're considering, Admiral Squish, unless your idea was something completely original I didn't even think of, which is always possible.

[The-Mage-King]

Ah, I remember this.

...


So, Toriko as a D&D subsystem, now that I think of it. I approve.

[Kazyan]

I just gotta say this is supremely interesting and unique. Looking through the mechanics, there's nothing that looks particularly exploitable. It's like Incarnum in that you can do some cool stuff with it, but nothing truly broken. Well, you could cook Arcane Mind or Faithful Heart with a tricked out Cooking check at high levels. But that's casting's fault, not blue magic. All the DM has to do is avoid throwing monsters tht can be butchered for those dishes at you...very nice. I think you're going to get more feedback on those two dishes than anything, because it's casting.

You have a dish for just about everything. This is better than the alternative, but I should mention that it makes things very dependent on the DM and campaign. If the DM just throws constructs at the party over and over, it screws a blue magic user in addition to the rogue. In a campaign with tons of variety and ways to find specific monsters, a blue magic user could go all the way to a weird quasi-Tier 1--they can just cook up anything they want, but the process of getting the ingredients is another challenge...I already like the sound of how system plays.

If this were a sourcebook, it could fit into standard WotC stuff. Heck, it's better than Tome of Magic already, and looking like a much better way of fueling class abilities with skill checks than Truenaming. I want to use this, but I don't have an RL group at the moment...

By the way, in the Blinking Breast dish, one of the augments cuts off: "If you beat the DC by 15 or more, the action required to teleport or activate and deactivate the blink ability". (You probably dropped the missing clause in the same pile that all of mine end up in...)

[Admiral Squish]

I must admit, I'm curious as to what you mean by the Gourmand's, 'can give extra bonuses to his allies under the effects of his dishes'. Because I can see two potential ways to do something along those lines, but I wanna determine which you're considering, Admiral Squish, unless your idea was something completely original I didn't even think of, which is always possible.

Well, the basic idea was a support character, along the lines of a bard. The gourmand makes dishes so delicious they help to raise the spirits of those that eat them, granting morale bonuses and such to those that eat them. He makes dishes for other people in his party.

Ah, I remember this.

...


So, Toriko as a D&D subsystem, now that I think of it. I approve.

Well, toriko never grew fangs and wings from eating stuff. But that DID give me the idea for the gourmet hunter PrC.

I just gotta say this is supremely interesting and unique. Looking through the mechanics, there's nothing that looks particularly exploitable. It's like Incarnum in that you can do some cool stuff with it, but nothing truly broken. Well, you could cook Arcane Mind or Faithful Heart with a tricked out Cooking check at high levels. But that's casting's fault, not blue magic. All the DM has to do is avoid throwing monsters tht can be butchered for those dishes at you...very nice. I think you're going to get more feedback on those two dishes than anything, because it's casting.

You have a dish for just about everything. This is better than the alternative, but I should mention that it makes things very dependent on the DM and campaign. If the DM just throws constructs at the party over and over, it screws a blue magic user in addition to the rogue. In a campaign with tons of variety and ways to find specific monsters, a blue magic user could go all the way to a weird quasi-Tier 1--they can just cook up anything they want, but the process of getting the ingredients is another challenge...I already like the sound of how system plays.

If this were a sourcebook, it could fit into standard WotC stuff. Heck, it's better than Tome of Magic already, and looking like a much better way of fueling class abilities with skill checks than Truenaming. I want to use this, but I don't have an RL group at the moment...

By the way, in the Blinking Breast dish, one of the augments cuts off: "If you beat the DC by 15 or more, the action required to teleport or activate and deactivate the blink ability". (You probably dropped the missing clause in the same pile that all of mine end up in...)

This is quite possibly the most satisfying review I've ever gotten.

It is indeed quite dependent on the DM. I don't forsee many problems with that, but I suppose if you have a DM who is untrusting of new material, he might start cutting down on butcher-able beasties. There was talk at one point in the last thread about buying ingredients, with a cost based on the minimum ranks required to access the dish, but it never came about, mostly because I'm terrible at pricing. Such a list would make it easier for a cook to have access to specific dishes on demand, but they would still have the final say on access. Plus, the existence of such a list would imply the existence of magical butcher shops or grocery stores where a character would go to get said ingredients, which is just RIPE with roleplaying opportunities.

I'm really glad you think this would fit in with WotC materials, my real goal with this one was to make a system that would be worth publishing in a real book, like magic of incarnum. Mostly, just to see if I can pull off that kind of quality and depth.

I fixed the blinking breast, too, thanks for pointing that out!

[ScrambledBrains]

Well, the basic idea was a support character, along the lines of a bard. The gourmand makes dishes so delicious they help to raise the spirits of those that eat them, granting morale bonuses and such to those that eat them. He makes dishes for other people in his party.

I see...then I have to ask...how? I mean, I get how the bard can deliver moral bonuses with his music, since he's performing right there, but I really can't see a gourmand just whipping up a succulent masterpiece for his side to devour while a fight rages.

[Admiral Squish]

I see...then I have to ask...how? I mean, I get how the bard can deliver moral bonuses with his music, since he's performing right there, but I really can't see a gourmand just whipping up a succulent masterpiece for his side to devour while a fight rages.

Oh, no! It wouldn't be in combat. It'd be like extra effects attached to dishes. So, you eat the dish, you get +4 str, but you would also be inspired by the deliciousness to gain a +1 to attack rolls or something for as long as the dish lasts.

[Kazyan]

This is quite possibly the most satisfying review I've ever gotten.

It is indeed quite dependent on the DM. I don't forsee many problems with that, but I suppose if you have a DM who is untrusting of new material, he might start cutting down on butcher-able beasties. There was talk at one point in the last thread about buying ingredients, with a cost based on the minimum ranks required to access the dish, but it never came about, mostly because I'm terrible at pricing. Such a list would make it easier for a cook to have access to specific dishes on demand, but they would still have the final say on access. Plus, the existence of such a list would imply the existence of magical butcher shops or grocery stores where a character would go to get said ingredients, which is just RIPE with roleplaying opportunities.

Not quite a review yet...there's a lot of content to chew through here.

Well, the pricing couldn't be quite like spells, because with spellcasting, you just cough up some shiny and you have access to Exploit System Flaw forever. For blue magic, it would be one-time, and you can't stock up. Unless you annoy the healbot for a ton of Gentle Reposes. To see if butcher shops work or not, a lot of playtesting would need to be done, more than is feasible. Maybe the concept could be in an adaptation section.

[ScrambledBrains]

Oh, no! It wouldn't be in combat. It'd be like extra effects attached to dishes. So, you eat the dish, you get +4 str, but you would also be inspired by the deliciousness to gain a +1 to attack rolls or something for as long as the dish lasts.

Ah! I see! That makes more sense...but then what's the issue with the design of the Gourmand you're having?

[Admiral Squish]

So, here's a bunch of half-formed ideas that could use some help from the people.

Eating undead: I came up with this idea while explaining why you couldn't eat them normally. The basic idea is that a creature with a negative energy metabolism could theoretically consume dishes made from undead creatures. Any basic dishes they would qualify for, and possibly even some specific dishes that can only be made from undead. Initially, I thought a simple feat would be enough, if it only allowed access to undead basic dishes. You wouldn't get any new abilities, after all, you'd just get better access to basic dishes. But as the idea for specific dishes came along, I started to think it might need a whole PRC of it's own.

Non-monster dishes: Basically, things like bread, vegetables, fruits, baked sweets, and possibly cheese. This idea's been floating out there at the edge of my brain, and I really like it, but I'm just not sure how players would pay for the ingredients. I mean, it could just be a GP cost, but gold is a pretty plentiful resource. And beyond that, my google-fu is failing me when it comes to finding myths and legends about magical foods.

Kitchens/cooking tools: The formula I've been using to determine DCs scales pretty fast. The DC increases by 5 for every 3 ranks you must have in the skill. One of the ways I was going to mitigate the relatively high DCs was to allow players to get cooking tools and even kitchens. At low levels it's just you and a cookfire. At low-mid levels, you might get a cooking wagon, a portable kitchen. At mid-high levels, you might upgrade your wagon with magical ovens, stoves, sinks, unseen servants, and the like, and at higher levels you might have a kitchen that shrinks down to the size of a matchbox, or an extra-dimensional kitchen, bigger on the inside than the outside, or even a portal to a kitchen in a pocket dimension.

Preserving food: There's an item in RotD called Angriz's chest which preserves meat with gentle repose, like a magic refrigerator, but without the cold. Unfortunately, it's only the size of a regular chest. However, I was thinking it would be easy enough to upgrade such an item with extradimensional space, perhaps even a handy-haversack "what you want's on top" sorta thing. I might even make a mundane canning/salting/smoking sorta thing.

Now, to reply:

Not quite a review yet...there's a lot of content to chew through here.

Well, the pricing couldn't be quite like spells, because with spellcasting, you just cough up some shiny and you have access to Exploit System Flaw forever. For blue magic, it would be one-time, and you can't stock up. Unless you annoy the healbot for a ton of Gentle Reposes. To see if butcher shops work or not, a lot of playtesting would need to be done, more than is feasible. Maybe the concept could be in an adaptation section.

True, but the general impression's still enough to satisfy me for now. :P

You could stock up with the proper equipment, once I finish the preserving items. But yes, each time you bought a cut would mean you'd only get one batch of that dish.

I could see putting it in an adaptation section somewhere.

Ah! I see! That makes more sense...but then what's the issue with the design of the Gourmand you're having?

The issue is that's one class feature. Sure, it'll fill out a few levels with different kinds of bonuses, but I need a bunch more abilities, more active abilities, to make the class fun to play. Adding X to Y roll is extremely useful, but it's not very interesting.

[ScrambledBrains]

The issue is that's one class feature. Sure, it'll fill out a few levels with different kinds of bonuses, but I need a bunch more abilities, more active abilities, to make the class fun to play. Adding X to Y roll is extremely useful, but it's not very interesting.

That's what I thought the issue was, thanks for clarifying. Well...spells probably aren't a good idea, since they'd A: Step on the toes of the Bard, and B: Probably make the actual point of the class(That being the awesome dishes) superfulous. Hmmm....

[Amechra]

Would you like me to take care of the Gourmand? I promise I won't do anything too odd...

[Admiral Squish]

That's what I thought the issue was, thanks for clarifying. Well...spells probably aren't a good idea, since they'd A: Step on the toes of the Bard, and B: Probably make the actual point of the class(That being the awesome dishes) superfulous. Hmmm....

Yeah, class features and spellcasting AND cooking is a bit much.
Blue mage is gonna have spellcasting, but it's gonna be slow progression, 1-6, and they're only gonna have like one or two class features beyond that.

Would you like me to take care of the Gourmand? I promise I won't do anything too odd...

Hmm... I suppose. Go ahead and give it your best shot. But I reserve the right to tweak it before I post it, just in case.

[Kazyan]

Couldn't anyone get Cooking just by investing cross-class skill points? Cloistered Clerics would have a field day with this subsystem. Pop off a Divine Insight and be Wisdom focused anyway, and you're suddenly awesome.

[Admiral Squish]

Couldn't anyone get Cooking just by investing cross-class skill points? Cloistered Clerics would have a field day with this subsystem. Pop off a Divine Insight and be Wisdom focused anyway, and you're suddenly awesome.

Technically, yes, any character could go cross-class into this, but they would need to be level five before they have enough ranks to even make basic dishes, and they'd only be able to advance at half-speed. Since all the abilities are based on your check result and skill rank, you'd be fighting the system all the way. It's sorta the same deal as iaijutsu focus.
...Now that you point it out, though, divine insight is in issue. Damn game designers, not thinking of my then-nonexistent project when creating spells...

[Amechra]

Easy, just say that, due to Cooking being a time-intense activity, you can't use any spells that enhance a single skill check with it.

Oh, and do you think it would be OK to give the Gourmand (and perhaps other Cooking classes) the ability to simply cook food as if their skill result was 10+1/2 class level+Cooking ranks?

In other words, they can auto-cook a DC 43 meal at 20th level; if they want to actually cook something better, they can go ahead and actually make a check.

I'm asking because I'm thinking of giving the Gourmand Create Food and Drink, and then later giving them the ability to "improvise" up a dish with up to that DC when using the SLA (I'll limit the "recipes" that they can make through this ability.)

Does that seem problematic?

[Kazyan]

Technically, yes, any character could go cross-class into this, but they would need to be level five before they have enough ranks to even make basic dishes, and they'd only be able to advance at half-speed. Since all the abilities are based on your check result and skill rank, you'd be fighting the system all the way. It's sorta the same deal as iaijutsu focus.
...Now that you point it out, though, divine insight is in issue. Damn game designers, not thinking of my then-nonexistent project when creating spells...

The solution is to fix Divine Insight, not your project, then.

I was only concerned about this because the only investment to become the half-caster of blue magic is a single skill point per level. (Admittedly, most characters can't spare their skill points, from what I've seen.) On the other hand, it gives a possible bump to the Monk, with those skill points and Wisdom stuff. Or a full-on Ascetic Chef ACF...now you can eat your way to enlightenment!

[Admiral Squish]

Easy, just say that, due to Cooking being a time-intense activity, you can't use any spells that enhance a single skill check with it.

Oh, and do you think it would be OK to give the Gourmand (and perhaps other Cooking classes) the ability to simply cook food as if their skill result was 10+1/2 class level+Cooking ranks?

In other words, they can auto-cook a DC 43 meal at 20th level; if they want to actually cook something better, they can go ahead and actually make a check.

I'm asking because I'm thinking of giving the Gourmand Create Food and Drink, and then later giving them the ability to "improvise" up a dish with up to that DC when using the SLA (I'll limit the "recipes" that they can make through this ability.)

Does that seem problematic?

As for 'taking ten' on cooking, I don't know. It seems like that would just eliminate a lot of the randomness inherent in the system. What if you made it so they could successfully create any un-augmented dish with a DC lower than that?

I'd really like to avoid giving the gourmand a lot of really magical abilities. The blue mage is gonna be doing plenty of that.

The solution is to fix Divine Insight, not your project, then.

I was only concerned about this because the only investment to become the half-caster of blue magic is a single skill point per level. (Admittedly, most characters can't spare their skill points, from what I've seen.) On the other hand, it gives a possible bump to the Monk, with those skill points and Wisdom stuff. Or a full-on Ascetic Chef ACF...now you can eat your way to enlightenment!

It is an issue, I will admit. What if... what if just getting the ranks only allows you to make basic dishes, and specific dishes are only available if you level in a cooking class? Hmm, but then you'd only need a one-level dip...

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All this talk of bards, buffing, and magic has made me think that maybe a bard remake with a litany of skill-based songs instead of spells would be pretty awesome. I might make that a side project...

[Kazyan]

It is an issue, I will admit. What if... what if just getting the ranks only allows you to make basic dishes, and specific dishes are only available if you level in a cooking class? Hmm, but then you'd only need a one-level dip...

You could say that dishes which require X ranks of Cooking also require X - Y levels in a cooking class, but the ranks system is too elegant to complicate with a Chef Level mechanic...

How about you only allow the better Kitchens to be used by characters with X levels in a cooking class? That would take care of most of the issue. If someone is willing to dip Factotum and dump skill points/take Able learner to have access to dishes but no kitchen, than frankly, they've spent enough resources, a bit like how optimzers do their theurging anyway.

EDIT: Ooh, and you don't even need to add a Chef Level system for kitchen requirements; just add Improved/Greater/Supreme Kitchen Use as class features for cooking classes.

[Amechra]

Well, my idea was that they could spend an hour scrounging around for ingredients, and essentially whip up an unaugmented basic dish.

Higher level versions would let you do it faster.

Other ideas is the shaker with their "secret spices", which do stuff like bump up Cooking checks, and maybe have a taste-only Prestidigitation effect.

And of course, in battle, you can toss your spices in people's faces, where they hack and wheeze, unable to understand the fineness of the aroma!

(Obviously still in the planning stages.)

[Admiral Squish]

You could say that dishes which require X ranks of Cooking also require X - Y levels in a cooking class, but the ranks system is too elegant to complicate with a Chef Level mechanic...

How about you only allow the better Kitchens to be used by characters with X levels in a cooking class? That would take care of most of the issue. If someone is willing to dip Factotum and dump skill points/take Able learner to have access to dishes but no kitchen, than frankly, they've spent enough resources, a bit like how optimzers do their theurging anyway.

EDIT: Ooh, and you don't even need to add a Chef Level system for kitchen requirements; just add Improved/Greater/Supreme Kitchen Use as class features for cooking classes.

I like this! An elegant solution. Now, all I need to do is figure out what kind of wis mod we'd be looking at for a mostly-SAD character at various levels and adjust the kitchen bonuses accordingly.

Well, my idea was that they could spend an hour scrounging around for ingredients, and essentially whip up an unaugmented basic dish.

Higher level versions would let you do it faster.

Other ideas is the shaker with their "secret spices", which do stuff like bump up Cooking checks, and maybe have a taste-only Prestidigitation effect.

And of course, in battle, you can toss your spices in people's faces, where they hack and wheeze, unable to understand the fineness of the aroma!

(Obviously still in the planning stages.)

That sounds like a plan.

As for the shaker, I dunno. I mean, I could see the cooking bonus, but I'm not a fan of the spice-toss. Seems more like an equipment ability than a class feature, you know?

One vague idea I had was maybe small amounts of healing when you eat a dish he made.

[Steamflogger]

I remember I once had a psion player who "transformed" various dishes into astral constructs a la Fighting Foodons.

I have no idea if it fits your design goals, but a feat or PRC that allowed a caster to do the same would be pretty sweet. Maybe an astral construct that gains the benefits of the dish it was prepared from?

For example, turning a gutsy steak that would have granted a +4 bonus to constitution into a monster would result in an astral construct with +4 constitution, and the player would choose construct abilities appropriate for the monster the dish was made from.

Anyways, I love this system, it's definitely the best cooking system I've ever seen. The only potential problems I can see would be with the arcane/divine/druidic dishes. Spells are way more powerful than anything else this system grants.

[Admiral Squish]

I remember I once had a psion player who "transformed" various dishes into astral constructs a la Fighting Foodons.

I have no idea if it fits your design goals, but a feat or PRC that allowed a caster to do the same would be pretty sweet. Maybe an astral construct that gains the benefits of the dish it was prepared from?

For example, turning a gutsy steak that would have granted a +4 bonus to constitution into a monster would result in an astral construct with +4 constitution, and the player would choose construct abilities appropriate for the monster the dish was made from.

Anyways, I love this system, it's definitely the best cooking system I've ever seen. The only potential problems I can see would be with the arcane/divine/druidic dishes. Spells are way more powerful than anything else this system grants.

..Interesting. Well, we're going to have the prime cut golem, which is like a flesh golem but with a number of permanent dishes, since he's made from cuts of meat from the most powerful critters. However, I could possibly see some kind of foodon-summoning spell, probably for the blue mage.

[Ashtagon]

Simple solution:

You know one "recipe" per rank in Cooking. Levels in cookery classes grant knowledge of additional recipes. Characters can swap out one known recipe per level (maybe more if they take cookery class levels).

"Recipe books" are magical (alchemical? culinary?) items that allow you to make a recipe without specifically knowing the recipe. You must be able to thumb through the book while cooking.

Otyugh heart stew? I think this calls for a culinary bypass.

[Admiral Squish]

Simple solution:

You know one "recipe" per rank in Cooking. Levels in cookery classes grant knowledge of additional recipes. Characters can swap out one known recipe per level (maybe more if they take cookery class levels).

"Recipe books" are magical (alchemical? culinary?) items that allow you to make a recipe without specifically knowing the recipe. You must be able to thumb through the book while cooking.

Otyugh heart stew? I think this calls for a culinary bypass.

I don't think so. I mean, 43 at level 20 is not quite enough to learn all the basic dishes. And nobody would ever learn a specific dish unless they knew for a fact they'd face that monster over and over, simply because the resources to make them are too rare to waste a recipe slot on.

As for recipe books. Firstly, one book for one recipie? Seems like it'd be more like a pamphlet. I don't know of we're gonna go with recipes known, but I do think cookbooks should exist. Maybe a master's cookbook is just a masterwork tool for cooking.

[Ashtagon]

I don't think so. I mean, 43 at level 20 is not quite enough to learn all the basic dishes. And nobody would ever learn a specific dish unless they knew for a fact they'd face that monster over and over, simply because the resources to make them are too rare to waste a recipe slot on.

As for recipe books. Firstly, one book for one recipie? Seems like it'd be more like a pamphlet. I don't know of we're gonna go with recipes known, but I do think cookbooks should exist. Maybe a master's cookbook is just a masterwork tool for cooking.

43 at level 20? Well, that's certainly more different "powers" than most classes get. But while I said 1 recipe per rank in Cooking, I didn't specify how many recipes gained per cooking class level. In any case, giving a character too many choices leads to decision paralysis.

And recipe books... again, I didn't say they would have only a single recipe in them. Depending on book size, each could easily hold a dozen magical recipes (plus a host of more mundane recipes of course).

Given the choice between a really nice set of cooking utensils or a book, I'd rather make the utensils the masterwork tool.

[Admiral Squish]

43 at level 20? Well, that's certainly more different "powers" than most classes get. But while I said 1 recipe per rank in Cooking, I didn't specify how many recipes gained per cooking class level. In any case, giving a character too many choices leads to decision paralysis.

And recipe books... again, I didn't say they would have only a single recipe in them. Depending on book size, each could easily hold a dozen magical recipes (plus a host of more mundane recipes of course).

Given the choice between a really nice set of cooking utensils or a book, I'd rather make the utensils the masterwork tool.

I don't forsee choice paralysis being an issue with this system, since the materials are relatively scarce. You can't make any dish anytime you kill anything, you have a limited number of options that can be cut from any given critter. And since the options provided by any given corpse are so very limited, low-level characters could spend days, weeks even, unable to find the materials they need for any of the dishes they know, if we installed a limit on dishes known.

As for cookbooks. Maybe a cookbook's necessary to cook at all, like a holy symbol? Or perhaps the cookbook's simply part of a kitchen?

[Admiral Squish]

So, I'm working on Kroot and I'm stuck on how to model the long-term changes they gain from eating different things.

One idea was to double the rate you gain bonus ability points. So, you'd gain a +1 to any ability score at every even level.

Another idea was to give them a number of paths that would give them bonuses over time, like a dragonborn. Possibly the most flavorful option, but I'm not entirely sure what the options should be.

Yet another idea was to convert the potentially overpowered paths into a racial paragon.

[Amechra]

Big Eater [Ex]: A Kroot has natural access to Blue magic, which enhances their appetite while simultaneously giving them the means to pursue their lust for food.

A Kroot is constantly under the effects of a Powdered Fang dish with a Cooking check result of 15 plus the Kroot's character level.

In addition, each time a Kroot takes time to eat a cut raw from a corpse, they may choose to have their natural Powdered Fang dish to have been "cooked" by a Cooking check of 15; if they do so, they may choose a single basic dish that the cut they ate is eligible for, and gain the benefits of that dish as if they had made a Cooking check equal to 15 plus three-fourths of their level.

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Not exactly what you're looking for, but it might make a nice class feature, or monster ability.