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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Dragon Ascendant(3.5, Version 1.1, PEACH)

    Dragon Ascendant

    Some seek power, others are born for power. Many Sorcerers draw their power from the blood of dragons running distant in their veins, choosing to explore that power and shape it to their own ends, shaping it and using it as a foundation for power. Others, rarer yet are born for it. For those few the blood of dragons running though their blood is more than power to harness, it is who they are. For these, the Dragon Ascendants, their life centers around learning to unleash and foster that power to more than sorceress ends, to become into which they've descended. Dragon Ascendants spend little time in formal martial training preferring to rely on their innate abilities.

    Spoiler
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    The Dragon Ascendant is a melee spellcaster focused on exploring its draconic lineage. Currently Dragon Disciple and Dragon Devotee do not fully explore this concept. Dragon Disciple is a bad class, it needs to expand spell casting options. Instead of redesigning and fixing the Dragon Disciple class, I've created a base class around harnessing the essence and power of dragon blood within a sorcerers veins. This class features a slower progressing spontaneous spellcasting class with Full Caster Level maxing out at 7th level spells. It also incorporates the physical changes a Dragon Disciple would go through and then some as they explore their power and become even closer to their origins.



    Abilities Charisma is perhaps the most important attribute for a Dragon Ascendant as it determines their spellcasting potential. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution are all important as the enhance the Dragon Ascendant's physical stats and combat prowess. Dexterity and Constitution also serve to minimize the Dragon Ascendant's poor Fortitude and Reflex saves.

    Role The Dragon Ascendant is comfortable in the front lines or sitting back near the other spell casters, though the Dragon Ascendant is unlikely to surpass their focused peers. especially spell casters. Though for a Dragon Ascendant to truly shine they must be able to bring their magical and martial forces to bare.

    Background

    Hit Dice: D8

    Class Skills: The Dragon Ascendants's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Climb(Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Jump(Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis).

    Skill Points at Each Level: 4+Int Mod(x4 at 1st level)


    Dragon Adcendant

    {table=head]Level|Base AttackBonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Eschew Material, Breath of the Dragon, Draconian Ancestry|5|3

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Might of the Dragons, Sight of the Dragon|6|4

    3rd|
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Hide of the Dragon, Presence of the Dragon|6|5

    4th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Might of the Dragons, Claws of the Dragon|6|6|3

    5th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Hide of the Dragon, Intellect of the Dragon|6|6|4

    6th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Might of the Dragon, Sight of the Dragon|6|6|5

    7th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Hide of the Dragon, Rapid Metamagic|6|6|6|3

    8th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |Might of the Dragon, Sight of the Dragon|6|6|6|4

    9th|
    +4
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |Hide of the Dragon, Sudden Quicken|6|6|6|5

    10th|
    +5
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Might of the Dragon, Sight of the Dragon|6|6|6|6|3

    11th|
    +5
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Wings of the Dragon, Hide of the Dragon|6|6|6|6|4

    12th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |Draconic Immunities, Half Dragon Ascendance|6|6|6|6|5

    13th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |Wings of the Dragon, Hide of the Dragon|6|6|6|6|6|3

    14th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    |Might of the Dragon, Mantle of the Dragon|6|6|6|6|6|4

    15th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    |Sudden Quicken, Wings of the Dragon, Hide of the Dragon|6|6|6|6|6|5

    16th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |Presence of the Dragon, Tireless Breath|6|6|6|6|6|6|3

    17th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |Wings, Hide of the Dragon|6|6|6|6|6|6|4

    18th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |Might of the Dragon|6|6|6|6|6|6|5

    19th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |Wings of the Dragon, |6|6|6|6|6|6|6

    20th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    |Dragon Ascendance|6|6|6|6|6|6|6
    [/table]

    Spells Known

    {table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th

    1st|4|1

    2nd|5|1

    3rd|5|2

    4th|5|2|1

    5th|5|3|1

    6th|5|3|2

    7th|5|4|2|1

    8th|5|4|3|1

    9th|5|5|3|2

    10th|5|5|4|2|1

    11th|5|5|4|3|1

    12th|5|5|5|3|2

    13th|5|5|5|4|2|1

    14th|5|5|5|4|3|1

    15th|5|5|5|5|3|2

    16th|5|5|5|5|4|2|1

    17th|5|5|5|5|4|3|1

    18th5|5|5|5|5|5|3|2

    19th|5|5|5|5|5|4|2

    20th|5|5|5|5|5|4|3

    [/table]

    Class Features

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    The Dragon Ascendant is proficient in all simple weapons. The Dragon Ascendant is not proficient with any armor or shields. Armor of any type interferes with a Dragon Ascendant's gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.

    Spells

    A Dragon Ascendant casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, unlike the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

    To learn or cast a spell, a Dragon Ascendant must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcererís spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcererís Charisma modifier.

    Like other spellcasters, a Dragon Ascendant can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Dragon Ascendant. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

    A Dragon Ascendant's selection of spells is limited. A Dragon Ascendant begins play knowing four 0-level spells and one 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new Dragon Ascendant level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Dragon Ascendant Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a Dragon Ascendant knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Dragon Ascendant Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the Dragon Ascendant has gained some understanding of by study. The Dragon Ascendant canít use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

    Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered Dragon Ascendant level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a Dragon Ascendant can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the Dragon Ascendant "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spellís level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level Dragon Ascendant spell the Dragon Ascendant can cast. A Dragon Ascendant may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

    Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a Dragon Ascendant need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells heíll cast.

    Bonus Feats

    The Dragon Ascendant is a natural talent among Naturals. At 1st level they no longer need inexpensive material components and gain the benefit of Eschew Materials. A Dragon Ascendant is capable of channeling their arcane energies into their attacks, at 1st level they gain the benefit of Arcane Strike. As the Dragon Ascendant grows in power he gains the ability to rapidly shape and alter the nature of his spells gaining the benefits of Rapid Metamagic at 7th level. At 9th level he gains the ability to cast a spell using Sudden Quicken Spell once per day and at 15th level he can do this twice per day. The Dragon Ascendant counts as having these feats for the purpose of meeting prerequisites.

    Eschew Materials: You can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. (The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.) If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component at hand to cast the spell, just as normal.

    Arcane Strike: When you activate this feat (a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity), you can channel arcane energy into a melee weapon, your unarmed strike, or natural weapons. You must sacrifice one of your spells for the day (of 1st level or higher) to do this, but you gain a bonus on all your attack rolls for 1 round equal to the level of the spell sacrificed, as well as extra damage equal to 1d4 points x the level of the spell sacrificed. The bonus you add to your attack rolls from this feat cannot be greater than your base attack bonus.

    Rapid Metamagic: When you apply a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell, the spell takes only its normal casting time.

    Sudden Quicken: Once per day, you can apply the effect of the Quicken Spell feat to any spell you cast without increasing the level of the spell or specially preparing it ahead of time. You can still use Quicken Spell normally.

    Draconic Ancestry

    The Dragon Ascendant has the blood of dragons coursing through their Vein. Upon taking their first level of Dracon Ascendant the player choose a variety of dragon. This choice affects the associated element of their breath weapon, it also affects how the Dragon Ascendant will be percieved by others Dragons. In addition, the Draconic ascendant counts as having the Dragonblood subtype as well as the applicable Draconic Heritage to meet prerequisites only. This confers no bonus, but merely allows the Draconic Ascendant to qualify for feats with Dragon Blood or Draconic Heritage as prerequisites.

    Also, a Dragon Ascendant deals an additional point of damage per dice of its associated Energy Type.

    Breath of the Dragon

    At 1st level the Draconic Ascendant gains a breath weapon as assocated with their chosen heritage of dragon. The damage for this breath weapon is equal to 1d8 per two Dragon Ascendant Class Levels and allows a reflex save(10+1/2Dragon Ascendant HD+Con Modifier) for half damage. This breath weapon is usable once per day.

    Might of the Dragons

    As the Dragon ascendant grows in power they gain physical bonuses to strength, constitution, and even size at the appropriate level.
    Level Bonus
    2nd +2 Strength
    4th +2 Strength
    6th +2 Consitution
    8th +2 Strength
    10th +2 Strength
    14th +2 Strength
    18th +2 Consitution

    *Physical bonuses derived from Dragon Ascendant levels do not stack with, but overlap with, the bonuses provided by templates.

    Sight of the Dragons

    As the Dragon Ascendant grows in power its perception of the world begins to expand. The Dragon Ascendant gians the following vision traits at the appropriate level.

    2nd Low Light Vision
    6th Darkvision 60'
    8th Blindsense 30'
    10th Blindsense 60'

    Hide of the Dragons

    As the Dragon Ascendant grows in power its skin begins to change, fine diamond hard scales begin to cover the Dragon Ascendants body. The Dragon Ascendant gains the following Bonuses at the appropriate levels. These bonuses are improvements to natural armor and stack with the creatures base natural armor. Starting at 3rd level and each odd level thereafter the Dragon Ascendants Natural armor increases by one to a total of +8 at 17th level.

    3rd +1 Natural Armor, Resist(Energy(Chosen Type)):5
    5th +1 Natural Armor
    7th +1 Natural Armor, Resist(Energy(Chosen Type)):10
    9th +1 Natural Armor
    11th +1 Natural Armor
    13th +1 Natural Armor, DR:5-Magic
    15th +1 Natural Armor
    17th +1 Natural Armor, DR:10-Magic

    Presence of the Dragons

    As the Dragon Ascendant grows in power, it too grows in its personal power and beauty. The Dragon Ascendant gains the following bonuses at the appropriate level.

    2nd +2 Charisma
    16th +2 Charisma

    Intellect of the Dragon

    As the Dragon Ascendant grows in power, so does his mind. The Dragon Ascendant gains the following benefit at the appropriate level.

    5th +2 Intelligence

    Wings, Tooth, and Claw

    As the Dragon Ascendant grows in gains the ability to manifest its Draconic nature. Once gained, as a free action the Dragon Ascendant can manifest claws appropriate for its size(d4 for a Medium Creature) as primary weapons. As it matures it can manifest vicious teeth as a secondary natural weapon dealing a d6 points of damage. The Dragon Ascendant is considered proficient with these weapons. Eventually, great wings grow from the backs and grow stronger as the Dragon Ascendant grows in power. All Draconic features can be manifested as a free action and dismissed as one as well.

    11th Fly:40(Average)
    13th Fly:60(Average)
    17th Fly:80(Average)
    19th Fly:80(Good)

    Draconic Immunities

    As the Dragon Ascendant matures it gains immunity to Sleep, Paralysis, and it's associated Energy Type.

    Half Dragon Ascendance

    At 12th level the Dragon Ascendant becomes a Half Dragon and its type changes to Dragon. It gains any bonuses of the Half Dragon Template which have not already been gained through previous levels in the Dragon Ascendant class. His type Changes to Dragon and his class HD becomes a D12 for this and all further Dragon Ascendant levels hereafter. The Half Dragon Ascendant also changes their lifespan to be the average of their natural race and that of a Dragon of their lineage or their natural lifespan, whichever is greater. If this causes the Dragon Ascendant's age category to be lessened they do not regain lost physical ability scores, nor are their mental ability scores reduced.

    Mantle of the Dragon

    As the Dragon Ascendat grows in power, spells begin to slide off of him. He gains Spell Resistance equal to his level +7.

    Tireless Breath

    At 16th level the Dragon Ascendant's Breath Weapon is usable once every d4 rounds to a maximum of his Constitution Modifier times per day.

    Draconic Ascendance

    Upon reaching 20th level the Dragon Ascendant reaches the peak of their mortal power, nearly bridging the gap to their Dragon forefathers.

    The Dragon Ascendant gains Frightful Presence equal to 10+ 1/2 HD +Cha Modifier and increases its Size(+8 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, +2 Natural Armor, -1 Size, Reach, etc). The Dragon Ascendant counts as a True Dragon in all respects and qualifies for prestige classes and Epic classes as if they were a True Dragon. The Dragon Ascendant also uses the Age categories for a Dragon of its type. If this caused the Dragon Ascendant's age category to be reduced they do not gain lost physical ability scores, nor do they lose any mental abilities once gained. As a True Dragon the Dragon Ascendant no longer suffers penalties for aging.
    Last edited by Zman; 2012-12-18 at 05:51 PM.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP Comments Welcome)

    Reserved for Future use, also used to bump the thread.

    Change Log

    12-7-12
    Removed 7th level spell access.

    12-8-12
    Cleaned up the Table
    Modified Wing Speed and Maneuverability to follow a more logical progression.
    Clarified ASF with Armor.
    Class now possesses Poor BAB progression and has Gained Arcane Strike as a bonus feat. Lost its Martial Weapon Proficiency.
    Aging now changes upon becoming a half dragon and upon becoming a dragon.
    Added a clause to limit template stacking for physical attributes.
    Changed Hit Dice to a D8 which increases to a D12 at lvl12.
    Slowed Spells Known Progression.

    12-10-12
    Fixed a few typos. No mechanical changes.
    Modded Tireless Breath to be a maximum of Con Mod per Day.

    12-12-12
    Added Swim as a Class Skill.
    Clarifying Proficiency with Natural weapons, Natural Weapons, Aging.

    12-18-12
    No mechanical changes. Added a bit more polish.
    Last edited by Zman; 2012-12-18 at 05:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    ok, if the breath weapon is 1/day, make it a flat 1d10/level or something... otherwise all of its blasting spells will be better options, and are usable with greater frequency.

    also, the steep break from breath weapon 1/day to once per 1d4 rounds... is jaring to say the least. At 16th level the breath weapon becomes a backup weapon for if you ever run out of spells, or just want to kill weak mooks...
    Avatar by Szilard, thank you sir for the fine work!

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    ok, if the breath weapon is 1/day, make it a flat 1d10/level or something... otherwise all of its blasting spells will be better options, and are usable with greater frequency.

    also, the steep break from breath weapon 1/day to once per 1d4 rounds... is jaring to say the least. At 16th level the breath weapon becomes a backup weapon for if you ever run out of spells, or just want to kill weak mooks...
    Good Points. I had selected the damage output to be on par with the pathetic half dragon breath weapon at lvl 12. I was also thinking about adding an increase to 2x then 3x prior to lvl 16.

    Thanks for the input.

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    The main issue, is it is a terrible combat option to start with... short of swarms this is a mild iritant for anything of your level... you should put it in at a level were you can make it relevant without making it overpowered.
    Avatar by Szilard, thank you sir for the fine work!

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    The main issue, is it is a terrible combat option to start with... short of swarms this is a mild iritant for anything of your level... you should put it in at a level were you can make it relevant without making it overpowered.
    The breath weapon isn't meant to be a major factor in combat and purpose is to serve as a backup in combat and for hoard control.

    Also, there is a feat in Races of the Dragon, I believe which bumps your breath weapon up to every d4 rounds already.

    You are saying I should increase access to the breath weapon at every d4 rounds earlier?

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    make it once/encounter, or boost the damage. If it is bigger damage, then the fact it is one/day matters less. If it is once/encounter, then it has a number of uses from an opening volley to killing a swarm. either make it worth being once a day, or make it common enough not to matter how strong it is.
    Avatar by Szilard, thank you sir for the fine work!

    my home brew. you should PEACH them...
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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    What about adding the 2xper day and 3x per before lvl16 and adding ability that lets you use the breath weapon in place of an iterive attack with no AoO? Or allow you to use it in place of a secondary Bite attack in attrition to attacks when full attacking?

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    I think you have too many stat increases here; it's got about as many as Vow of Poverty, but that's Vow of Poverty.

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    Proposed Change Log

    Drop 7th Level Casting, Slow Spells Per Day Progression by 1. Drop one Str bonus, reduce Magnitude of Capstone.

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    why not give set SLAs for each color, with a option to sacrifice uses for utility spells?
    Avatar by Szilard, thank you sir for the fine work!

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    why not give set SLAs for each color, with a option to sacrifice uses for utility spells?
    That begins to resemble the work of another Playgrounder's Draconic Ascendant whose work this is already similar to, though mine is probably weaker when compared,. I found theirs after I completed this draft and was shocked by the similarity. I'm looking for something with a bit more Sorcerous feel to it.

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zman View Post
    That begins to resemble the work of another Playgrounder's Draconic Ascendant whose work this is already similar to, though mine is probably weaker when compared,. I found theirs after I completed this draft and was shocked by the similarity. I'm looking for something with a bit more Sorcerous feel to it.
    Which homebrew is the other work? We might be able to help create differentiation between the two. I think I know which one it is, but I'm not sure.

    Also I'll try and give this a full PEACH in a minute or two.
    Last edited by Milo v3; 2012-12-08 at 12:16 AM.
    Spoiler: Old Avatar by Aruius
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    http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q56/Zeritho/Koboldbard.png

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    Which homebrew is the other work? We might be able to help create differentiation between the two. I think I know which one it is, but I'm not sure.

    Also I'll try and give this a full PEACH in a minute or two.
    Draconic Ascendant by Jarian

    One of the biggest questions is one of Balance. I'm thinking it is currently Tier 3, probably high Tier 3. Thoughts?

    Also, could someone please define the PEACH acronym? My best guess is Peer Evaluated And Checked Homebrew.
    Last edited by Zman; 2012-12-08 at 01:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    Damn, I thought you were talking about mine.

    Also here is my PEACH:
    Quote Originally Posted by Zman View Post
    Hit Dice: D12
    Pretty large HD for a caster, even if it is only 6 levels, I'd suggest d8 to d10.

    The Table
    The special column would look better without the brackets.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    The Dragon Ascendant is proficient in all simple weapons and one Martial weapon of their choice. The Dragon Ascendant is not proficient with any armor or shields.
    Looks good, though you should specify whether armour interfers with their spells.

    A Dragon Ascendant casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
    I suggest that the spells are drawn from the Sorcerer spell list, rather than Sorcerer/Wizard. This is for two reasons, firstly their are some dragon themed spells that only sorcerer's can get, and secondly, you don't gain any spells related to preparing.

    These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the Dragon Ascendant has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer canít use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.
    I guess we will learn more about this later on.....
    Wait, we don't....
    How does this work?

    Bonus Feats
    Some text would be nice, rather than just the feat names and the levels you get them at.

    Draconic Ancestry
    Not huge, but allows access to very useful feats faster.

    Breath of the Dragon
    Damage is decent, but too little uses per day. Perhaps a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Constitution modifier (minimum 0).

    Might of the Dragons
    +10 Strength and +4 Constitution is really overpowered, I'd reduce the Strength improvements to +4 maximum.

    Hide of the Dragons
    That's a lot of Natural Armour, I would reduce it a bit.

    Wings, Tooth, and Claw
    What is the fly speed of the Wings?

    Half Dragon
    As you have basically already gained the Half-Dragon template, all it would do is increase your ability scores, which they already get from leveling up.

    I'd remove the becoming a Half-Dragon section.

    Tireless Breath
    As is, this ability is required for breath weapon to be useful.

    Draconic Ascendance
    Pretty weak as a capstone.

    EDIT:
    One of the biggest questions is one of Balance. I'm thinking it is currently Tier 3, probably high Tier 3. Thoughts?
    I'd say low Tier 2. It's a weak spellcaster, breath weapon takes a long time to become useful, but the Ability Bonuses are ridiculous.

    Also, could someone please define the PEACH acronym? My best guess is Peer Evaluated And Checked Homebrew.
    Please Evaluate And Critque Honestly.
    Last edited by Milo v3; 2012-12-08 at 01:56 AM.
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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    Damn, I thought you were talking about mine.

    Also here is my PEACH:

    Pretty large HD for a caster, even if it is only 6 levels, I'd suggest d8 to d10.


    The special column would look better without the brackets.


    Looks good, though you should specify whether armour interfers with their spells.


    I suggest that the spells are drawn from the Sorcerer spell list, rather than Sorcerer/Wizard. This is for two reasons, firstly their are some dragon themed spells that only sorcerer's can get, and secondly, you don't gain any spells related to preparing.


    I guess we will learn more about this later on.....
    Wait, we don't....
    How does this work?


    Some text would be nice, rather than just the feat names and the levels you get them at.


    Not huge, but allows access to very useful feats faster.


    Damage is decent, but too little uses per day. Perhaps a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Constitution modifier (minimum 0).


    +10 Strength and +4 Constitution is really overpowered, I'd reduce the Strength improvements to +4 maximum.


    That's a lot of Natural Armour, I would reduce it a bit.


    What is the fly speed of the Wings?


    As you have basically already gained the Half-Dragon template, all it would do is increase your ability scores, which they already get from leveling up.

    I'd remove the becoming a Half-Dragon section.


    As is, this ability is required for breath weapon to be useful.


    Pretty weak as a capstone.

    EDIT:

    I'd say low Tier 2. It's a weak spellcaster, breath weapon takes a long time to become useful, but the Ability Bonuses are ridiculous.


    Please Evaluate And Critque Honestly.

    Ok, here are some responses.....

    D12: Yes it's high, but this is a true Gish class, not a Primary spell aster. A D12 when combined with Medium BAB, one good save, and horrible proficiencies is actually a very balanced chassis. If nothing I'm considering dropping it down to Poor BAB and giving Arcane Steike As a Bonus Feat.

    Yes, they suffer Arcane Failure as Normal, I didn't believe it had to be specified as it applies unless otherwises stated. And the class does not get armor proficiencies. That limits in the SRD for normal Sorcerers, it basically means custom Spells or any other sell you could get access to.

    I'll be working on cleaning it up, adding more description.

    The Breath Weapon at 12th level is completely standard for a Half Dragon. A Half Dragon has a 1/day usage as well.

    +10 Str and +4 Con can be achieved with Dragon Disciple and Dragon Devotee as well as the Cha and Int Bonuses. +8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha can easily be attained through th overpriced Half Dragon Template for +3 LA. The Strength mainly offsets the BAB deficiency and would be broken on a full BAB character, currently it is more balanced.

    The only large Strengh Boost is the Capstone where you Gain Large Size.

    It Gains +8 Natural Armor, +2 additional at Large Size which only offsets Dex and Size Penalties. +4 Natural Armor is consistent with a Half Dragon, more with a Dragon Devotee. I agree, the ability bonuses would be utterly broken on a true melee character, but I believe they serve to make the class an able combatant, lest they completely lose their combat effectiveness.

    It's Flyspeed is listed on the table, eventually gains 80'(Good). Thinking about dropping this down to Average Maneuverability.

    I need to be more specific with the Half Dragon section. You only gain what you haven't gained already, which amounts to a Bit attack, the Dragon type, and that is about it. You don't gain an additional +8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha etc as you've already gained those. In fact all of these massive bonuses are simply the Half Dragon Template spread over the first 12 levels with some spell casting, actually equivalent spell casting to an aeCL Sorcerer with the Half Dragon Template.

    Large Size is the True Capstone, Frightful Presence merely is a bonus and more thematic.

    I don't think this can qualify as a Tier 2, simply because it lacks the true power of a T2 class, that is what makes Tier2 classes Tier 2. It is more like a High Tier 3.

    Your class is interesting, especially as a a Prestige class. Also, yours has a D12 Hit Dice, Two good Saves, and Medium BAB with Half spell casting. Pretty comparable chassis to mine. I think the SLAs would lead to abuse, and It is a very narrow class. Consider making it a Base Class?
    Last edited by Zman; 2012-12-08 at 09:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    Ok. I took a step back and tried to really figure out what I was after with this class and I think I have it down.

    I was looking for a primarily ability based Melee/Spellcaster Gish. I believe I have fixed this problem and created a balanced Upper Tier 3 Class.

    Please refer to my changelog in second post for details.

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    does everyone on the forums have a "become a dragon" class, and are they all named Dragon Ascendant?
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

    Where did you start yours?

    The PCs were already a special forces type unit in a kingdom's military, so the campaign started in the general's office.

    Extended Homebrew Signature

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    does everyone on the forums have a "become a dragon" class, and are they all named Dragon Ascendant?
    It is starting to look that way. Though, I think this class is more balanced than yours and hopefully has less avenues for abuse. Though, your's is more modular and is closer to the Dragon abilities.

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    This seems pretty reasonable, though I'd probably reduce the hit die to d10. It's worth testing it out with both, and seeing whether it still fits your vision. If you wanted it go grow more powerful with transformation - maybe give a raw bonus to HP when he becomes a half dragon and then a full dragon?

    In any case, this seems much more balanced, you weren't far off with the first attempt but it was just pushed over the edge. Is there a way to test these?
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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavelcade View Post
    This seems pretty reasonable, though I'd probably reduce the hit die to d10. It's worth testing it out with both, and seeing whether it still fits your vision. If you wanted it go grow more powerful with transformation - maybe give a raw bonus to HP when he becomes a half dragon and then a full dragon?

    In any case, this seems much more balanced, you weren't far off with the first attempt but it was just pushed over the edge. Is there a way to test these?
    What if the class started as a D8 or D10, then increasing its Hd to a D12 at 12th Level? That seemed balanced enough?

    The reason I kept the D12 was that with Poor BAB, one Good Save, Reduced Spellcasting, and terrible proficiencies it needed it. Compare it to a Bard, D6, Medium BAB, Two Good Saves, Similar Spellcasting, Better Proficiencies, more skills, better skills, and Armored Casting. Or, god, compare it to a Druid, or Cleric. The base Chassis needs something, either a 2nd good Save or the Higher HD. And a D12 is consistent with a Dragon, Half Dragon, Dragon Disciple, etc. heck a Dragon is a D12, All Good Saves, More Skills, Full BAB etc.


    As for testing, I just build a 12th level character and compare starts and abilities to a comparable build.

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    Increasing it to a d12 seems flavourful enough, too. Either seems fine to me, but I think it should probably not have the d12 hit die straight away, with the other advantages.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft (Cheese) View Post
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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavelcade View Post
    Increasing it to a d12 seems flavourful enough, too. Either seems fine to me, but I think it should probably not have the d12 hit die straight away, with the other advantages.
    Ok, it does get good bonuses for its first class level, I'll convert it to a D8, increasing to a D12 at 12th level.

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    I like this, seems much more balanced. Still runs into the problem of being a better caster than a Sorcerer for levels 2-5. May need to slow the Spellcasting Progression a bit more. 2nd level spells at 5th level... Or every fourth. I like every fourth, but it doesn't solve the low level problem vs sorcerers, just reduces eventual casting power.

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    Hm, I might show this to a friend of mine as well, if that's okay. I know he wanted to play the Dragon Shaman class from 3.5, he might be interested in this and could give some good feedback. Would that be okay with you, ZMan?

    Edit: The answer for powering down vs Sorcerer might be as simple as giving him fewer spells per day.
    Last edited by Cavelcade; 2012-12-08 at 02:42 PM.
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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavelcade View Post
    Hm, I might show this to a friend of mine as well, if that's okay. I know he wanted to play the Dragon Shaman class from 3.5, he might be interested in this and could give some good feedback. Would that be okay with you, ZMan?

    Edit: The answer for powering down vs Sorcerer might be as simple as giving him fewer spells per day.
    I could slow down spells known progression. End up knowing the same amount, just make it take twice as long to learn them.

    Go ahead, the more input the better. And Dragon Shaman isn't a very good class.

    Edit: Spells slown down.
    Last edited by Zman; 2012-12-08 at 03:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zman View Post
    Yes, they suffer Arcane Failure as Normal, I didn't believe it had to be specified as it applies unless otherwises stated.
    Every other caster class states whether its spell casting is affected by armour.

    The Breath Weapon at 12th level is completely standard for a Half Dragon. A Half Dragon has a 1/day usage as well.
    Half-Dragon is definitely not a pillar of balance or usefulness.

    +10 Str and +4 Con can be achieved with Dragon Disciple and Dragon Devotee as well as the Cha and Int Bonuses. +8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha can easily be attained through th overpriced Half Dragon Template for +3 LA. The Strength mainly offsets the BAB deficiency and would be broken on a full BAB character, currently it is more balanced.
    As stated, Half Dragon shouldn't be used as a basis of balance. Especially for a class.

    Your class is interesting, especially as a Prestige class. Also, yours has a D12 Hit Dice, Two good Saves, and Medium BAB with Half spell casting. Pretty comparable chassis to mine. I think the SLAs would lead to abuse, and It is a very narrow class. Consider making it a Base Class?
    The D12 HD, Two Good Saves are only there because it is a Prestige class. Prestige classes can afford to be more powerful because you have to fufil the requirements to even take a single level, so I'm not thinking of making it a Base Class. As for the SLA's, they are useful, but only if you select the right ones and a normal character can only get level 5 spells from it once they reach a character level of 20. The only real huge amounts of power I see from it is that it can allow for cleric and sorcerer spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    does everyone on the forums have a "become a dragon" class, and are they all named Dragon Ascendant?
    Mine isn't named Dragon Ascendant.
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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, 1st Draft Complete, Comments Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    Every other caster class states whether its spell casting is affected by armour.


    Half-Dragon is definitely not a pillar of balance or usefulness.


    As stated, Half Dragon shouldn't be used as a basis of balance. Especially for a class.


    The D12 HD, Two Good Saves are only there because it is a Prestige class. Prestige classes can afford to be more powerful because you have to fufil the requirements to even take a single level, so I'm not thinking of making it a Base Class. As for the SLA's, they are useful, but only if you select the right ones and a normal character can only get level 5 spells from it once they reach a character level of 20. The only real huge amounts of power I see from it is that it can allow for cleric and sorcerer spells.


    Mine isn't named Dragon Ascendant.
    The Omission about ASF has already been fixed.

    No Half Dragon is not a great baseline, but it already established and an ok place to start. I didn't use just Half Dragon Template, I also used the Half Dragon PrC as a baseline.

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5 WIP, Version 1.1, PEACH)

    I think we did a good job Balancing my class. I have two builds set up at lvl 12, Valen the Original and Valen the Revised based upon 32 point buy. Funny story, they have almost identical combat capabilities with a small, but significant edge to Valen the Original. The gap is bigger depending on optimization to Valen the Original.

    As the classes level they remain pretty close with Valen the Original staying superior in everything but HP and magical defense.

    Valen the Revised Dragon Ascendant

    Valen the Original Roughly WoTC equivalent.

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    Default Re: Dragon Ascendant(3.5, Version 1.1, PEACH)

    Woah! Lotta stuff. Few instances of "Sorcerer" where there should be "Dragon Ascendant" in the spells section, I'll have a full look at the whole class in a minute.

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