Fantasy Holy Roman Empire

[Fortinbras]

More or less what it says in the title. I'm trying to build a world where the main human country is based on the Holy Roman Empire as it was in the 13th century.

I have a council of semi-autonomous princes who picks the king and has to be consulted on certain issues like wars. Aside from complicated church-state politics that probably don't belong on his forum, what can I do to give this country a uniquely "German" feel as opposed to the more "English" feel that seems to permeate most of Medieval Fantasy?

Any good (English) sources on German medieval history would appreciated as well.

[hamishspence]

Warhammer made heavy use of this concept- you could look up some of their ideas.

[A Tad Insane]

Bears, gothic arches, austrian accents, and use of german myths and titles should add to the feel. Imagine skyrim, only german as opposed to scandanavian.

[Anxe]

Beer? Those pointed goth helmets? I always associated those with Germany.
Dense forests everywhere you turn. Germany had way more forests than England (Might still be true, I'm not a current geography expert).
Allusions to fairy tales. I believe most fairy tales are German or French in origin.
A mix of old superstitions and a new religion. Germany still had a lot of the pagan stuff going on in the 13th century I think.
Witch trials?

[Cikomyr]

Warhammer made heavy use of this concept- you could look up some of their ideas.

This. The Empire of Sigmar has been heavily inspired by the HRE, structurally and thematically.

[Zombimode]

Instead of using american or otherwise diluted views on a "german" medieval fantasy country, look at Aventuria, the setting of the prominent german RPG system "Das Schwarze Auge" (The Dark Eye). It is as german as a fantasy world can get.

[awa]

Authentic is valuable but war-hammer stuff (as found in the varies wikis) is free, legal, in English and easily accessible that's going to be more important to many people.

keep in mind that unless your players are big history buffs for the era in question you will get very little benefit from all your hard work.

[Kaeso]

what can I do to give this country a uniquely "German" feel as opposed to the more "English" feel that seems to permeate most of Medieval Fantasy?

Medieval Fantasy has a mostly English feel? I never noticed that to be honest, and I'm a continental European. If you disregard obvious references to English myths (excalibur, king arthur etc.) and get rid of the nasty "Dwarves must have Scottish accents" trope, all the English elements fade away.

I guess the best way to make your campaign have a German feel is using German names for cities and important figures. For example, in my current campaign I gave the game world a French feel by naming the dominant kingdom Rousillon (a region in southern France in real life), and giving the royal family and their entourage names like Clovis (first Catholic king of the Franks), Hughes (founder of the Templar order), Jacques (last Grand Master of the Templar Order), Lamarck (The founder of the theory of evolution, which would later be improved by Darwin) etc. Coincidentally, the main rival of this kingdom is the German themed Kingdom of Euler (a Swiss mathematician), ruled by king Conrad (a very common name among the emperors of the Holy Roman Empire).

EDIT: This is a real nit-pick, but perhaps you could also make it more German by making crossbows more common. Continental Europeans preferred the crossbow (because it was so simple to use even a peasant could fell a knight with it), while the English preferred the Longbow (I think the king even made it obligatory for all young men to practice with it every sunday after church). I think the king of France did have a regiment of Scottish mercenaries that used longbows though, but I could be mistaken.

[Terraoblivion]

The Empire in Warhammer is renaissance, not medieval though. It's heavily 16th century which is quite a bit later than what the op is asking for.

And Anxe, the pickelhaube is from the 19th century. Further, witch trials are, despite clichés, not a medieval phenomenon, but a renaissance one, only slowly coming into prominence in the 15th century and peaking in the first half of the 17th century. Similarly what is modern Germany was quite thoroughly converted to Christianity by the 13th century, though some parts of Eastern Europe held by various German principalities weren't.

In any case, my advice for the op would be to focus on the legal independence of cities and the generally very divided nature of the place. England was a single kingdom, Germany was a very large number of cities, principalities, duchies, bishoprics and even a kingdom or two, each with their own laws, mercantile or noble elites and complex political relations with their neighbors. On the other hand, there weren't the kind of lower-ranking lords being semi-rulers on the level below the local city council/count/bishop/whatever, nobility held title and did own land, but said land followed standard rules of private property rather than forming hereditary subfiefs and titles and lands were not tied together. Finally, I'd recommend focusing on trade as Germany as mercantile activity is one of the noteworthy features of Germany, with both the Hansa and later the Fuger family being among the dominant mercantile forces of Europe at their respective times.

[Anxe]

Sounds like Terraoblivion knows her stuff. Any insights on the HRE as represented in Age of Empires 2?

[Terraoblivion]

I'm not really an expert. I might be a historian, but I never really studied German history. I'm mostly just remembering what came up during my classes on medieval Danish history and some bits that came up elsewhere.

Also, it just occurred to me that for something HRE'ish, you want multiple languages and several ethnic groups. Not only did the medieval HRE often extend into Italy, as well as deeply into Slavic regions of Eastern Europe, but German didn't become a unified language until the 19th century. Before that there was at the very least a split between the north and the south of the modern country, as well as between German regions and ones with Slavic, Italian or French majorities.

The only other thing I can think of going into is landownership and how there was more serfdom in Germany than in England, but that would be extremely complex for very little real gain. Also, I'm not really much of an expert on German serfdom and cannot describe it very clearly, beyond it not being the way it is usually portrayed in the media.

I hope I've at least been of some basic help, though.

[scarmiglionne4]

I don't know that you can have something clearly medieval German without it having the scent of English history and folklore due to Germanic influences on English history. Language is going to be the biggest thing during the era you are focusing on in comparison to the representation of English in fantasy rpg material.

If it were me I would try to find a point in history where a more definite idea of what it was to be of Germany and try to wind that back into the era you are trying to fit it into.

[Terraoblivion]

Just because the Angles and the Saxons came from what is modern day Germany doesn't mean that medieval Germany had particularly close ties to medieval England. We are still talking more than half a millennium between that migration and the point that the op is interested in. It's also worth remembering that France and Germany shared a kingdom at a point after the Anglo-Saxon migration to what is modern day England, so strictly speaking those two would likely be tied closer together. The closest tie between England and Germany would be the viking connection, but Scandinavian culture had not yet been half-way assimilated into German culture at that point, while German culture had been radically transformed by the process of converting to Christianity.

Also, England has a number of very distinctive traditions that have no continental counterpart and a lot it shared with France, but not with Europe east of the Rhine. Of course, there were also aspects shared by all of Northern Europe and all of medieval, Catholic Europe which of course mean sharing between Germany and England, but that is rather distinct from saying that Germany was strongly similar to England.

[GolemsVoice]

I think Terraoblivion get's it right. Present it as a collection of states (barely) held together by the Emperor, who are quite happy to go to war with each other. The Emperors ranged from strong one able to cowe their nobles to weaker one basically controlled by thos nobles able to elect him.

And yes, the HRE was not really unified. People didn't think of themselves as Germans, but as people from their repective region, living under their respective lord.

The (catholic) church also had a larger influence, directly owning territories, and the Pope's blessing was required to crown the Emperor. Depending on the Emperor, the power struggle would go back and forth between them.

[scarmiglionne4]

I wasn't talking about the historical England of the era in question, I was referring to the heavily English influenced "common fantasy" if there is such a thing, that the op was talking about. The type of thing where there seems to be several eras of English history existing at the same time.

Sure there are differences here, but are there enough of them and are they going to be noticeable enough to really give much of a contrast to the usual stuff without doing what I suggested? Don't you think a little anachronism would make for a more German-flavored setting?

[Terraoblivion]

Yes, some of them are noticeable. The politics were quite a bit different on the structural level. If you have a German-based setting and find a lord in his castle, he will rule the surrounding area and basically not answer to anybody as long as he didn't go ahead and get himself excommunicated. If you find one in typical fantasy, he'll follow the pattern of being sworn to the king in a relatively complicated system of fealty and partial independence. At the same time, if you have a king in a German based setting, the nobles won't be lords capable of raising their own armies or retreating to their castle. And that's before going into the complexities inherent in the elected emperor and the politics of power tied to that position. Independent, self-governed cities without any nobility at all is a rather distinctive feature compared to the typical English mold as well, as is the dominant position of the merchant class in parts of the country.

An interesting perspective to keep in mind too is that one of the defining features of medieval Germany was that it was the heart of Europe. Italy, parts of France, Eastern Europe and Scandinavia were all heavily influenced by the culture and politics of Germany, both through emulation, trade and intermarriage with German nobility. England on the other hand was a relatively insignificant, peripheral kingdom more or less restricted to trying to the isles and occasional overseas adventures in France. It only became a major player in the North Sea trade in the 15th century as part of the rise of the Dutch textile trade, which also marked the beginning of the country's rise to the status of one of the great powers of Europe.

Other obvious differences include linguistic and ethnic diversity, unstable frontier areas getting gradually colonized and added to the German cultural sphere, the lack of a strong yeoman tradition, crossbows instead of longbows, no parliament, great diversity in local legislation and the presence of church ruled states that nonetheless fit into the wider whole and weren't crazy fantasy theocracies. So, yes, I'd definitely say that German-based fantasy would be considerably different from English-based, even without nerding out over architectonic and artistic styles or the particulars of local legislation in various areas.

[GolemsVoice]

I think you can achieve some effect already with just German names for places and people. It changes the way people will visualize your setting, because, to some extent, by hearing the names, people will supply their own images.

[scarmiglionne4]

I think you can achieve some effect already with just German names for places and people. It changes the way people will visualize your setting, because, to some extent, by hearing the names, people will supply their own images.

I agree. I think this will go a long way.

[Kaeso]

I agree. I think this will go a long way.

Also, simply using "König" and "Kaiser" rather than "King" and "Emperor" will also help a long way. Don't tell me you don't instantly visualise a very manly man with an extremely fashionable moustache the instant you hear the word "Kaiser"

[awa]

my first thought is bread

[Kaeso]

my first thought is bread

Does the bread have a fashionable moustache?

[awa]

actually they do kinda look like they have a pair of mustaches if you squint

[nedz]

I remember playing the (very) old PC game Darklands which was set in 15th Century Germany. It was quite well researched and created a world which works as people in the 15th century believed it worked. There were two magic systems: Alchemy and Saints. Alchemy worked pretty much as you would expect, but the saints worked by spending virtue points (which were recovered slowly, or by visiting cathedrals) to invoke Saints. These would then perform miracles. It might be worth trying to track down a copy ?

You should also bear in mind that since there were many small states, there were lots of customs duties to be paid on trade. Obviously this didn't do much for the economy.

[Ashtagon]

actually they do kinda look like they have a pair of mustaches if you squint

You might want to throw out bread that is sprouting a rather fashionable moustache.

[GolemsVoice]

That's the only way bread is ever eaten in Germany. True fact!

[BootStrapTommy]

Early or late HRE?

Early is going to be more of warlords than of knights. There isn't really men with titles, so much as men who have soldier backing them and men who are related to the Emperor. Any one similar to a knight would like be a classical "paladin", something like a personal bodyguard under the employ of the Emperor or one of his close friends.

Cavalry would be more akin to "cataphracts" or semiprofessional cavalry than "knights". No plate, more banded and scale. Higher perseverance to weapons like axes, maces, and bows than to swords, while existing swords would mostly be short (gladii left from Old Rome). Heavy influence of the main Church, while the existence of older "pagan" rituals still prevalent in the society. Still heavy Slavic influence and minor prevalence of Eurasia weapons.

Norse, German, and Slavic folklore (that really doesn't change much from English). "Saracens" encroaching on the southern borders.

The only real existing title would be that of the Emperor, usually flavored as "Kaiser" in the more Germanic regions and "Tzar" or "Czar" in the more Slavic regions. The official title however would be the Latin "Imperator Romanorum" meaning "Emperor of the Romans".

Late is hyper-English. Smaller. Even more German. Very disunified, with territories directly controlled by more by regional Dukes and their underlings than by the Emperor, some even areas controlled by main Church. Partial to the heavy plate as well as weapons like greatswords, pikes, halberds, arming swords, and lances. Cavalry as the traditional "knight". However, even the lowest "knight" would have far more power than a lowly English knight would, with knighthood being even more exclusive. A sort of three faction split between powers centralized in Saxony, Austria and Northern Italy. Those annoying Swiss and their rebellions.

Very, very German folklore. "Turks" encroaching on south eastern borders. Current border residents only so friendly as to serves as convenient buffers.

"Kaiser" would be the traditional title for the Emperor with the Latin "Imperator Romanorum" surviving, but for more ceremonial use. "Großfürst" meaning grand prince or "Prinz" meaning prince was the title of the Emperor's sons

Starting from the bottom, the minor title "Edler" existed, but it was for a civilian magistrate, lower than a knight. Next "Ritter" would be the sirs of the Empire, effectively the traditional knights. After that there were the "Freiherr," something like a baron. Then there was "Graf," which would be something like a Count or an Earl. Next would be the incredibly powerful "Herzog" or duke. Dukes were very powerful in the mid-to-late empire, constructing small kingdoms around themselves just barely answerable to the Emperor. Just above that would be the three power houses, many of whom would be more powerful than the Emperor, "Erzherzog" or archduke, "Großherzog" or grand duke, and "Fürst" or prince. Note however, that some fürsts were only as powerful as the more powerful herzog, the title varied in strange historically. Also their title is not related to being heir to the throne, only to ruling a "principality".

Church power titles include "Abt" or abbot, "Bischof" or bishop, and "Erzbischof" or archbishop.

[Terraoblivion]

Given that the op said 13th century, it falls right between those two periods.

Which, you know, is where most of the history of the HRE is, given that what you call early would go to like the 11th century at most, while late is pretty much second half of the 15th century and the renaissance until the peace of Augsburg which was pretty much the last time the existence of the HRE mattered.

[Kaeso]

Given that the op said 13th century, it falls right between those two periods.

Which, you know, is where most of the history of the HRE is, given that what you call early would go to like the 11th century at most, while late is pretty much second half of the 15th century and the renaissance until the peace of Augsburg which was pretty much the last time the existence of the HRE mattered.

Isn't that the peace of Westphalia, where the French (de facto) destroyed the HRE and became the most powerful country in Europe (and beyond) by quickly filling the vacuum?

[BootStrapTommy]

Given that the op said 13th century, it falls right between those two periods.

Which, you know, is where most of the history of the HRE is, given that what you call early would go to like the 11th century at most, while late is pretty much second half of the 15th century and the renaissance until the peace of Augsburg which was pretty much the last time the existence of the HRE mattered.

Yes, I was basically hitting both sides of when he said. because I was ignoring the middle were nothing happens. The thing about when he said is that it is the Crusader era. And unfortunately in the Crusade era, the Empire wasn't much different than its neighbor France, who was herself not much different then her pals across the channel in England.

European society is oddly uniform in that period. Basically just choose the late and ignore the technology statements, take more chain/scalemail, breastplates with arming swords, axes, and lances.

And England and Germany had only minimally different folklore, since English folklore has it roots in German and Norse, with a sprinkle of Celtic.

Isn't that the peace of Westphalia, where the French (de facto) destroyed the HRE and became the most powerful country in Europe (and beyond) by quickly filling the vacuum?

The HRE doesn't end until the Napoleonic Wars. However, it ends as a defacto power very shortly after Charlemagne, with only a few notable Emperors after its very first.

It was mostly a none entity through much of its history.

[Terraoblivion]

Isn't that the peace of Westphalia, where the French (de facto) destroyed the HRE and became the most powerful country in Europe (and beyond) by quickly filling the vacuum?

The HRE was largely irrelevant as a political entity by the time the 30-year war started. The last real act involving the emperor in a significant role was the Peace of Augsburg settling that each German principality could choose whether to be Catholic or Protestant, rather than try to force it on others. Essentially, it was the last hurrah of the HRE as a significant political force as opposed to the various principalities constituting it. By the time of the 30-year war France was already the dominant power in Europe, followed by countries like England, Bavaria, Bohemia and bizarrely enough Sweden, the war just further cemented that by breaking Danish pretensions and hurting the German states gravely.

And BootStrapTommy, as a historian I can't let the claim that nothing happened in Europe for six hundred years stand. Apart from a major shift towards urbanization in the 11th through 13th century, there were things like the great schism and the codification of knighthood in the late 11th century, the rise of chivalric literature in the 12th century, the start of the North Sea and Baltic trade along with the spread of German culture along the Baltic and the 13th century renaissance marked by the rediscovery of much of Aristotle's writing and the work of people like Roger Bacon. Further examples of stuff that happened was significant changes in the nature of serfdom and the lives of free farmers, the Catars and Wycliffites posing challenges to religious hegemony and, oh, yes the goddamn black death.

As for European homogeneity, nope, sorry to disappoint you there as well. Not only does German and Scandinavian mythological cycles differ heavily from the French and British ones, focusing on ones such as the cycle of King Theodoric, unique off-shots of the western cycles such as Lohengrin and a number of old Germanic stories like Niebelungen, which is notably not British. Socioeconomically Germany was rather different too, with a more urban culture as well as a much clearer urban-rural divide with city states being far from uncommon. Really, I'd suggest you actually do some rudimentary research before making broad, sweeping statements eliminating the Hansa, the extremely fragmented political situation or the entire German tradition of chivalry.