Would tabletop RPGs suffer by being more mainstream?

[Agrippa]

Does anyone here think that mainstream acceptance would harm tabletop RPGs in anyway? Perhaps you're afraid that outside acceptance would taint or corrupt RPGs and their nature as a fringe hobby keeps them safe and pure. Maybe like me you don't care, or even want to see RPGs thought of as mainstream. Just say what you think.

[Morithias]

Does anyone here think that mainstream acceptance would harm tabletop RPGs in anyway? Perhaps you're afraid that outside acceptance would taint or corrupt RPGs and their nature as a fringe hobby keeps them safe and pure. Maybe like me you don't care, or even want to see RPGs thought of as mainstream. Just say what you think.

I doubt it. This isn't like videogames, where they're made easier or less controversial cutting things like gays and such in order to appeal to a wider audience. With the exception of the campaign settings, 90% of a tabletop RPG is just rules. Even if the primary settings are cliche boring stuff, that's what homebrew is for. No one says I have to play Faerun when I play D&D.

[Vitruviansquid]

Nothing gets worse by being more mainstream. Things get worse when developers have misguided notions of what the mainstream is and how to appeal to it.

[Kalirren]

I think the danger rather lies in people accepting random (un)conventional wisdom on this matter instead of doing proper market research to determine whether or not mainstreaming will compromise the genre.

[prufock]

Wasn't this part of the rise of the grognards? D&D 4e was seen as an attempt to appeal to a wider audience, and some people felt it was becoming too "video game-like," like to World of Warcraft.

There was a Full Frontal Nerdity comic about it where one of the players is complaining that D&D was losing its edge because its no longer widely viewed as satanic.

[snoopy13a]

Mainstream acceptance would result in more players. More players means more customers, which would mean that publishers would create more games.

I can't see how that would be bad.

[Totally Guy]

I can just imagine it. A community where people are only aware of one or two different gaming property's existences and being vastly ignorant and disparaging of roleplaying concepts that exist outside of those comfortable few titles. Oh what a dystopia!

[willpell]

Nothing gets worse by being more mainstream. Things get worse when developers have misguided notions of what the mainstream is and how to appeal to it.

This, and thank you.

[obryn]

I can tell you, with 100% certainty, that neither WotC nor Paizo (nor Green Ronin or any other commercial publisher) would complain even once if their sales increased a hundredfold.

The only damage would be to clanishness among RPG fans, and frankly, that's something that we'd be better off without, anyway.

-O

[Yora]

I liked RPGs before they became popular.

[cascadingStar]

They'd be just the same, only on a wider scale. You could get groups together more easily, though more elitist would show up everywhere.

Though the gamer girl sub-human would evolve and that's not fun for anyone.

[valadil]

I feel like it would be easier to change the mainstream to fit RPGs than to change RPGs to fit the current mainstream.

[Water_Bear]

RPGs? Oh yeah, I used to play those back when they were cool....

<Takes off Hipster Glasses>

But seriously, is this a real question? The mainstreaming of comics brought us the Dark Knight and Avengers movies, video games becoming mainstream brought us Bioshock and Portal, and now that anime is becoming more acceptable we've actually got some dubs that don't make you want to wash your ears out with bleach. Nerds have always benefited from our hobbies getting more popular appeal, if only because we look less like losers for enjoying them.

[prufock]

The mainstreaming of comics brought us the Dark Knight and Avengers movies

It also brought us Fantastic Four and Green Lantern.

[huttj509]

It also brought us Fantastic Four and Green Lantern.

99% of everything is @#$%. Just gotta hold out until #100 is made.

[Water_Bear]

It also brought us Fantastic Four and Green Lantern.

That's actually a very good sign though; that terrible big-budget movies can be made and not slow down the rate that movies come out of that genre. It used to be that flops like Batman and Robin would shut down the genre for years, but now you can have cinematic disasters and still see studios jostling to get the rights for more characters.

[obryn]

Though the gamer girl sub-human would evolve and that's not fun for anyone.

I don't know what you are saying here, and I'm strongly leaning towards being disgusted by this statement, but there's a small chance you may actually mean the opposite of what I think you mean.

-O

[Agrippa]

You should note that most of the opposition I found to RPGs entering the mainstream comes from really old-school (OD&D and 1st Ed. AD&D mostly) players who feel that popular culture would turn D&D far too much from its roots and "dumb it down for the masses". In fact many, not necessarily most, old-schoolers/grognards seem to be proto-hipsters with a fondness for fantasy pulps and Jack Vance. Speaking of Jack Vance some old-school gamers think the problem is that most people don't appreciate the stories Dying Earth Series such as the The Dying Earth, The Eyes of the Overworld, Cugel's Saga or Rhialto the Marvelous or those of Fitz Lieber. The idea is that if people did then D&D, and by extension RPGs in general, could safely become mainstream without being warped any further. Just so can get a feel for Jack Vance's writing I'm posting a link to his quotes.

[Geostationary]

I don't know what you are saying here, and I'm strongly leaning towards being disgusted by this statement, but there's a small chance you may actually mean the opposite of what I think you mean.

-O

If I'm interpreting it correctly, they're referring to the whole kerfuffle over "fake geek girls" that recently broke out due to foolish comments made by a guy in the comic industry. If so, disgust is appropriate if directed at the people who would make such distinctions and then defend them.

[obryn]

If I'm interpreting it correctly, they're referring to the whole kerfuffle over "fake geek girls" that recently broke out due to foolish comments made by a guy in the comic industry. If so, disgust is appropriate if directed at the people who would make such distinctions and then defend them.

Yeah, that's what I'm hoping. The wording is throwing me off.

-O

[Tengu_temp]

Making RPGs more mainstream would probably result in an influx of people who think DND is the only RPG out there, and who don't really roleplay and just wander through dungeons, killing monsters and gathering treasure... And let's face it, we have that already.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Nothing gets worse by being more mainstream. Things get worse when developers have misguided notions of what the mainstream is and how to appeal to it.

While that's strictly true, I feel like it's kind of like saying that it doesn't hurt anyone to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theatre. The word doesn't hurt anyone, but plenty of people will get hurt in the ensuing panic.

In the same way, it's the reaction to gaming becoming mainstream that would do the harm. Some designers would make choices based on what the influx of new players wanted (or what they thought they wanted) rather than on the long term good of their games. Some veteran RPG players would declare that the sky was falling or that gaming was ruined forever, possibly scaring off newer players from getting into the games those veterans favor, even if they would actually enjoy those games and turning those games into (or keeping them as) a niche market. (You can see something similar in video games in the last few years with "hardcore" games decrying the rise of "casual" games.) With a larger market, it would be easier to get new games (both good and bad) published, though that one kind of balances itself out.

As far as damage done by the actual rise in popularity itself, I can't really think of any. It would be nice to have more people around to play and discuss games with.

[Coidzor]

I'm going to have to say that probably not because this has been an ongoing process for the past decade or so and seems like it's continuing to head that way rather than an abrupt change. It seems most of the always terribadness of mainstreaming is when it's more abrupt or even forced/strained rather than organic.

If I'm interpreting it correctly, they're referring to the whole kerfuffle over "fake geek girls" that recently broke out due to foolish comments made by a guy in the comic industry. If so, disgust is appropriate if directed at the people who would make such distinctions and then defend them.

I always had wondered what had triggered that debacle.

[awa]

their is also a poster on this forum called gamer girl who is very pro old school and anti "new school" although hopeful that is not what their referring to because calling another poster subhuman probably breaks some rule

[Mordar]

Mainstream acceptance would result in more players. More players means more customers, which would mean that publishers would create more games.

I can't see how that would be bad.

QFT. With expansion to come...

I can tell you, with 100% certainty, that neither WotC nor Paizo (nor Green Ronin or any other commercial publisher) would complain even once if their sales increased a hundredfold.

The only damage would be to clanishness among RPG fans, and frankly, that's something that we'd be better off without, anyway.

Again, QFT. I'm so disappointed we see this in "geek" fiction (Yes, we all know that Hamilton, Meyer and Rowling are the worst authors every to put words to paper, and their characters are pox upon geekmanity. [eyeroll] Now shush.) There will always be those "kids" who don't want anyone that isn't just like them in their sandbox...and frankly some of that is what I think contributed to the RPG recession (before the real recession), while Magic maintained soooo much steam among quasi-geeks.

The less of this clanishness or RPG-elitism, the better, IMO.

While that's strictly true, I feel like it's kind of like saying that it doesn't hurt anyone to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theatre. The word doesn't hurt anyone, but plenty of people will get hurt in the ensuing panic.

In the same way, it's the reaction to gaming becoming mainstream that would do the harm. Some designers would make choices based on what the influx of new players wanted (or what they thought they wanted) rather than on the long term good of their games. Some veteran RPG players would declare that the sky was falling or that gaming was ruined forever, possibly scaring off newer players from getting into the games those veterans favor, even if they would actually enjoy those games and turning those games into (or keeping them as) a niche market. (You can see something similar in video games in the last few years with "hardcore" games decrying the rise of "casual" games.) With a larger market, it would be easier to get new games (both good and bad) published, though that one kind of balances itself out.

I think we've seen this in movies, books and video games, and thus far we still have a high level of "robustness" in those areas...

Despite Green Lantern, there were lines for Spiderman, Batman and Avengers. Despite the glut of paranormal romance disguised as teen fiction, there continue to be quality books of "speculative fiction" and fantasy (and some of them may even have paranormal romance). Despite the rise of 8 bijillion MMOs and FPS games, the cream continues to rise and survive while the crap is recognized (usually).

I look forward to a revival of the late-90s or early 2000s, when RPGs were gaining in acceptance and were sufficiently marketable that there were tens of good companies...and perhaps mainstream acceptance is the route. Now, how can we bridge the hordes of manga-kids into the next generation of tabletop RPGers (once they grow out of some of those odious habits, anyway )

[Knaight]

Making RPGs more mainstream would probably result in an influx of people who think DND is the only RPG out there, and who don't really roleplay and just wander through dungeons, killing monsters and gathering treasure... And let's face it, we have that already.

I'd suspect that there would be less of it though, if only due to broader pools for non-D&D games. A mainstreaming of tabletop RPGs would probably be the best way to fix this even, as well as helping in a bunch of other ways.

[Grinner]

To provide a counterpoint, I can't see how the tabletop gaming industry could feasibly become any more mainstream. The thing about tabletop RPGs is that they require immense personal investment on the part of many individuals.

While video games have become popular, I suspect they have become so due to their accessibility. Tabletop games, on the other hand, require scheduling and time, lots of it. And frankly, when families start coming into the picture, people often don't have time to spare anymore.

Plus, I think we should be honest with ourselves; tabletop RPGs just don't come as naturally to consumers as video games do.

[awa]

i suspect part of the thing keeping rpgs from becoming mainstream are the computer games you can get much of the same type of game out of a computer rpg. and the computer games removes the biggest hurdles to actually playing finding some one who wants to play and doing all the math.

[Stubbazubba]

The grognards who believe that the hard core metal/satanic feel of older editions was somehow intrinsic to the product or the genre can and should be completely ignored when making decisions about where to take the industry. This industry's level of professionalism is laughably low, and becoming mainstream would dramatically increase revenues, thereby attracting far more professional talent. For instance, we'd have the resources to hire a mathhammer whose only job is to crunch the numbers, so as to avoid the embarrassing math errors even tent-pole games have been published with. The increase in quality of designers will increase the quality and vision of the games, which will result in more buying and playing. It's only good.

Comic books, board games, manga/anima, even internet memes, these are all growing into the mainstream and I think TTRPGs are poised to join in, though I fear 5e is trying to feel like an older edition and I don't know how well that will fly in a generation where it needs to be seen moving forward.

[erikun]

Most of the interesting/original RPGs I've seen are either indie games, or games from studios with low income and budgets. These authors have almost nowhere to go but up, and an expanded market will only help them improve. It's not like they would lose sales to the next-big-generic RPG title, and more business in RPGs means more potential customers looking at their systems.

I am a fan of World of Darkness, and seeing White Wolf expand is something that I would like. (They don't seem to be doing very well at the moment.) Sadly, White Wolf seems to be just the right size to be hurt by competition in an expanding RPG market. The plus side is that WoD tends to be (somewhat) unique and stands a chance to avoid direct competition, which is more likely to hit D&D or GURPS.

As for overall, I think an expanded RPG market would help the hobby immensely. It feels like there is stagnation and a restriction towards D&D-like systems that make it difficult for people to be thinking of new attempts at creating a RPG.