Iridian Dragons - [3.5] Alternate Dragon System

[Frathe]

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Iridian-of or pertaining to the iris or rainbow.


This is an alternate system of true dragons based on the seven colors of the rainbow and the seven deadly sins. It includes secondary associations with the elements and with the classical planets (including the sun and moon).

To avoid confusion with the similarly named chromatic dragons, iridian red dragons can be called scarlet, green called viridian, and blue called cyan.
Alternately, and they were designed with this in mind, the iridian dragons can be used to replace the regular system of chromatic/metallic altogether. Used this way, they provide a morally neutral alternative, and can be used to make a campaign setting more distinctive.

[Amechra]

... I can't figure out what Green and Blue are.

I mean:

Red: Wrath
Orange: Pride
Yellow: Gluttony
Green: ?
Blue: ?
Indigo: Sloth
Purple: Avarice

So...

Is Green Envy, and Blue Lust? Or is Green Lust, and Blue Envy?

[LordErebus12]

... I can't figure out what Green and Blue are.

I mean:

Red: Wrath
Orange: Pride
Yellow: Gluttony
Green: ?
Blue: ?
Indigo: Sloth
Purple: Avarice

So...

Is Green Envy, and Blue Lust? Or is Green Lust, and Blue Envy?

Id say on a standard color screening.

Red: Greed
Blue: Pride
Green: Envy
White: Gluttony
Black: Wrath

but yeah. adding colors makes things weird to me.

[Frathe]

... I can't figure out what Green and Blue are.

I mean:

Red: Wrath
Orange: Pride
Yellow: Gluttony
Green: ?
Blue: ?
Indigo: Sloth
Purple: Avarice

So...

Is Green Envy, and Blue Lust? Or is Green Lust, and Blue Envy?

Green is Lust, expressed as curiosity in other creatures because it seems weirdly specific if it's strictly sexual. I probably should have specified that a major form of that curiosity is sexual curiosity, which leads to all sorts of half-dragons.

Blue is Envy (definitely not Lust in that they're very cold and formal). Their xenophobia and dislike of other cultures is meant to be a reflection of this, with at least part of that dislike stemming from resentment over perceived injustices in, say, territorial holdings. It's not the strongest correspondence, I'll admit.

The rest of yours are right.

Id say on a standard color screening.

Red: Greed
Blue: Pride
Green: Envy
White: Gluttony
Black: Wrath

but yeah. adding colors makes things weird to me.

Yeah, I kind of added the whole rainbow thing at the last moment. The colors aren't really necessary; I'd just need another way of naming them. Maybe I could name them directly after the sins, but that seems a bit... blatant.

Would this color scheme work? I'd drop the rainbow theme for this, maybe call them something related to sins. Venial dragons?

Wrath-red
Greed-yellow? (maybe bronze, but both seem an awfully similar to gold)
Gluttony-white
Lust-purple (somewhat arbitrary)
Envy-green
Pride-gold
Sloth-blue

[Amechra]

The thing about Lust is that, if you don't restrict it to sexual desire, it edges in on Greed (lust for wealth), Gluttony (lust for food), and Envy (lust for what others have).

Fun fact: every war ever was started due to some form of lust.

[Frathe]

The thing about Lust is that, if you don't restrict it to sexual desire, it edges in on Greed (lust for wealth), Gluttony (lust for food), and Envy (lust for what others have).

Fun fact: every war ever was started due to some form of lust.

That's why I was trying to rationalize Lust as "curiosity," rather than a physical desire for sex, food, money, etc. It's almost an intellectual form of greed/gluttony then, an urge to experience the greatest number of distinctive new experiences. That's still almost overlapping, but it's distinct from Greed the same way Greed is distinct from Gluttony, and vice versa.

And I'd say envy is another sin-the real sin there is the resentment of the other person for what they have, not just the fact that you'd also like to have it.

Alternately, I could have a dragon that was fully sexual Lust-based, give it paralyzing breath, and have its default combat strategy be to paralyze opponents and then rape them, producing lots of Lust half-dragons in the setting. But that's just weird. OR, alternately, they could have extremely high charisma and just convince other creatures to get it on; though in that case I have no idea what their breath weapon would be. Maybe a cone of hypnotizing gas, if that doesn't seem overpowered (there'd be a Will save).

[vasharanpaladin]

The thing about Lust is that, if you don't restrict it to sexual desire, it edges in on Greed (lust for wealth), Gluttony (lust for food), and Envy (lust for what others have).

Fun fact: every war ever was started due to some form of lust.

Greed is a desire for material possessions. Lust is a desire for abstract concepts (ie, lust for power).

Envy is not merely the desire for something that someone else has, but also the desire for them not to have it.

Gluttony is not limited to food; gluttony is excess and waste.

Also:

Pride = Red
Wrath = Orange
Gluttony = Yellow
Lust = Green
Envy = Blue
Sloth = Indigo
Greed = Violet

(And OP, vermilion is a shade of red, not green. I think you meant "viridian"?)

[Frathe]

Greed is a desire for material possessions. Lust is a desire for abstract concepts (ie, lust for power).

Envy is not merely the desire for something that someone else has, but also the desire for them not to have it.

Gluttony is not limited to food; gluttony is excess and waste.

Also:

Pride = Red
Wrath = Orange
Gluttony = Yellow
Lust = Green
Envy = Blue
Sloth = Indigo
Greed = Violet

(And OP, vermilion is a shade of red, not green. I think you meant "viridian"?)

Yeah, I meant viridian, now changed in original post. Thanks. And agreed about your characterization of Gluttony/Envy/Greed.

Perhaps in line with the "lust for power" thing, as distinct from greed--which would be desiring physical possessions--Lust Dragons could pursue political power, long-lost knowledge, or impressive martial or spellcasting ability--basically, they'd crave intangible rewards, and that urge would manifest as ambition.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Given the old expression "Green with Envy," why isn't green Envy?

[Frathe]

Given the old expression "Green with Envy," why isn't green Envy?

I definitely considered it, but it was hard fitting the seven sins plus elemental affinities to the rainbow, and I ended up neglecting a lot of traditional associations. If you noticed this post where I re-proposed the colors to better fit with existing associations, green now is envy:

Wrath-red
Greed-yellow? (maybe bronze, but both seem an awfully similar to gold)
Gluttony-white
Lust-purple (somewhat arbitrary)
Envy-green
Pride-gold
Sloth-blue

Of course, I might not keep that; it threw out the whole rainbow theming. Keeping the rainbow theming but changing green to Envy, I could get:

Red-Anger
Orange-Pride
Yellow-Greed
Green-Envy
Blue-Gluttony
Indigo-Sloth
Purple-Lust

How does that seem?

[vasharanpaladin]

If you want the proper color associations:

Red = Wrath
Orange = Gluttony
Yellow = Greed
Green = Envy
Blue = Sloth
Indigo = Lust
Violet = Pride

[Frathe]

If you want the proper color associations:

Red = Wrath
Orange = Gluttony
Yellow = Greed
Green = Envy
Blue = Sloth
Indigo = Lust
Violet = Pride

That's not too different from what I have below:

Red-Anger
Orange-Pride
Yellow-Greed
Green-Envy
Blue-Gluttony
Indigo-Sloth
Purple-Lust

Why is violet pride, though? Is it because the association with of purple with royalty and the association of violet with "the extravagant... [and] the individualist"? (from the Wikipedia page on violet)

And why is orange Gluttony? Any specific reason?

Is indigo Lust just because the color seems generally appropriate?

[vasharanpaladin]

That's not too different from what I have below:



Why is violet pride, though? Is it because the association with of purple with royalty and the association of violet with "the extravagant... [and] the individualist"? (from the Wikipedia page on violet)

And why is orange Gluttony? Any specific reason?

Is indigo Lust just because the color seems generally appropriate?

Yes, I would imagine.

Because the idea of colors inducing moods has been around for a long time. Someone way back when figured out that looking at a lot of orange stuff makes you hungry.

And indigo's the only one left at this point.

[Frathe]

Yes, I would imagine.

Because the idea of colors inducing moods has been around for a long time. Someone way back when figured out that looking at a lot of orange stuff makes you hungry.

And indigo's the only one left at this point.

Sounds reasonable. In that case, I'd probably want to change the breath weapons, maybe to:

Red - Wrath - Fire
Orange - Gluttony - Liquid acid (like stomach acid)
Yellow - Greed - Poison gas
Green - Envy - Maybe Acid (gas) for the acidic bile of jealousy
Blue - Sloth - Paralyzing gas
Indigo - Lust - Maybe Hypnotizing gas
Violet - Pride - Maybe a cone of blinding light (although that doesn't really match the color; that's why I had a goldish Orange before for Pride)

Alternately, I could use the revision I proposed before, which would change fewer breath weapons, and have:

Red-Anger-Fire
Orange-Pride-Light
Yellow-Greed-Poison
Green-Envy-Acid
Blue-Gluttony-Lightning
Indigo-Sloth-Paralyzing gas
Purple-Lust-Hypnotizing gas

Which seems to have neater correspondences between the colors and breath weapons (although I could work more on that for vasharanpaladin's).

[Debihuman]

You could take your color cues from this site: http://www.faust.com/legend/seven-deadly-sins/

Lust - Blue
Gluttony - Orange
Avarice - Yellow
Sloth - Light Blue
Wrath - Red
Envy - Green
Pride - Violet

Associated Breath weapon possibilities

Lust - Fire
Gluttony - Dessication
Avarice - Force
Sloth - Enervation/paralyzing/slow effect (any would be appropriate0
Wrath - Electricity
Envy - Acid
Pride - Cold

Debby

[Frathe]

You could take your color cues from this site: http://www.faust.com/legend/seven-deadly-sins/

Lust - Blue
Gluttony - Orange
Avarice - Yellow
Sloth - Light Blue
Wrath - Red
Envy - Green
Pride - Violet

Associated Breath weapon possibilities

Lust - Fire
Gluttony - Dessication
Avarice - Force
Sloth - Enervation/paralyzing/slow effect (any would be appropriate0
Wrath - Electricity
Envy - Acid
Pride - Cold

Debby

I like that! It means I don't have to make something up on my own . And the colors aren't too different from the ones vasharanpaladin figured out, or maybe he/she had a similar source. I think I'd want to shift indigo to blue and light blue to normal blue, though (because indigo is darker than blue), just a very minor change so that it still fits the rainbow.

I like the breath weapons. I can see Fire, but before seeing your post I also thought of a different new one for Lust--some form of intoxicating gas, that temporarily drains dex. It doesn't slow or paralyze like Sloth, it just makes you act clumsy, and not in full control of your body. I also still like my old idea of blinding light for Pride's breath weapon (although I can definitely see cold too), and I know it could work mechanically because one of the gem dragons has a similar weapon.


One thing that probably wasn't made clear on my part was that the dragons as initially posted were actually based around the classical planets more than anything else; the base text file of the concept was called "planet dragons," and the rainbow colors were a last minute addition to distinguish these dragons from the chromatic ones (so they wouldn't be a mixed bag of colors and elements and named after the colors).

Therefore, I put no effort into researching or sticking to the existing links between sins and colors; instead, the dragons are based around their planets, with the sins and color assigned as appropriate to the Roman god associated with that planet. Before I introduced the rainbow theme, things were like this:

{table=head]Planet/God|Color|Breath weapon|Sin
Mercury (god of commerce) | Purple | Acid gas | Greed
Venus (love/fertility) | Green| Acid liquid| Lust
Mars (war)| Red | Fire | Anger
Jupiter (sky/thunder) | Blue | Lightning | Gluttony
Saturn (agriculture/time) | Black | Paralyzing | Sloth
Sun or Apollo (light/healing) | Gold | Blinding light| Pride
Moon| Silver | Ice | Envy (of the Sun)
[/table]

After the rainbow idea was introduced, I shifted the non-rainbow colors, and moved a few of the rainbow ones around to make room. In the process, I ended up obscuring a lot of the planetary connections.

[vasharanpaladin]

You could take your color cues from this site: http://www.faust.com/legend/seven-deadly-sins/

Lust - Blue
Gluttony - Orange
Avarice - Yellow
Sloth - Light Blue
Wrath - Red
Envy - Green
Pride - Violet

Associated Breath weapon possibilities

Lust - Fire
Gluttony - Dessication
Avarice - Force
Sloth - Enervation/paralyzing/slow effect (any would be appropriate0
Wrath - Electricity
Envy - Acid
Pride - Cold

Debby

...For clarity, that's exactly what I'd said vis-a-vis the color associations.

is blue.
is indigo.

[Frathe]

...For clarity, that's exactly what I'd said vis-a-vis the color associations.

is blue.
is indigo.

Okay, cool. I thought it seemed pretty much the same. Did you just... know that? And nice use of the smileys, by the way .

Now that I've gotten two different suggestions of the same system, and even backed up by a link, I think I should probably use that. That system would be:

{table=head]Color|Sin|Breath weapon
Red | Wrath | Fire
Orange| Gluttony | Acid or Desiccating
Yellow | Greed | Poison
Green | Envy | Acid
Blue (or Light Blue) | Sloth | Paralyzing or slowing or weakening
Indigo (or darker Blue)| Lust | Fire or Intoxicating gas
Violet | Pride | Blinding light
[/table]

[vasharanpaladin]

It's one of those random bits of trivia you pick up when falling under the curse of a certain website.

As for the breath weapons, what's the theme? Is the dragon supposed to represent the sin, punish it, or both?

[Frathe]

It's one of those random bits of trivia you pick up when falling under the curse of a certain website.

As for the breath weapons, what's the theme? Is the dragon supposed to represent the sin, punish it, or both?

Oh, sorry; I guess I should have specified. It's supposed to represent it: hence Anger is fire (because of associations like "hot-tempered" and "burning rage"); Envy is acid because resentment is sort of sour; Pride is blinding light because... I don't know, it seems appropriately flashy. And so on like that.

I can see how you take the breath weapons as "punishments," though, with the idea of ironic twists, or that the punishment should fit the crime. I'm not really sure how a dragon would punish greed, though. Maybe taking your stuff?

How would you punish gluttony? I guess you could make the perpetrator enormously fat, but that almost seems like a continuation of the sin. And if you made them thin they could just eat more.

[vasharanpaladin]

Oh, sorry; I guess I should have specified. It's supposed to represent it: hence Anger is fire (because of associations like "hot-tempered" and "burning rage"); Envy is acid because resentment is sort of sour; Pride is blinding light because... I don't know, it seems appropriately flashy. And so on like that.

I can see how you take the breath weapons as "punishments," though, with the idea of ironic twists, or that the punishment should fit the crime. I'm not really sure how a dragon would punish greed, though. Maybe taking your stuff?

How would you punish gluttony? I guess you could make the perpetrator enormously fat, but that almost seems like a continuation of the sin. And if you made them thin they could just eat more.

Read Dante's Comedy sometime. A greed dragon spews a stream of molten gold (fire damage, plus additional damage afterward and possibly other effects). A gluttony dragon can alternate between a vigorous inhalation that draws creatures in the area into its mouth (for automatic bite damage plus Swallow Whole, of course!) or a blast of waste matter (fecal or otherwise) that triggers a supernatural disease of some kind.

Similarly, a lust dragon would blast out a storm of buffeting winds, causing damage from the force and flinging creatures in the area around.

[Frathe]

Read Dante's Comedy sometime. A greed dragon spews a stream of molten gold (fire damage, plus additional damage afterward and possibly other effects). A gluttony dragon can alternate between a vigorous inhalation that draws creatures in the area into its mouth (for automatic bite damage plus Swallow Whole, of course!) or a blast of waste matter (fecal or otherwise) that triggers a supernatural disease of some kind.

Similarly, a lust dragon would blast out a storm of buffeting winds, causing damage from the force and flinging creatures in the area around.

I see. That's quite clever. I did consider mentioning the Divine Comedy, because I knew it has different circles of Hell for those who committed different sins, but then I forgot about it.

From my brief Wiki research, though, the Inferno section of the Comedy (i.e. the Hell/punishment part) doesn't seem to cover Sloth.

And if the waste matter comes out of the mouth I would sure hope it's just vomit or such , which might then do Acid damage.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Sloth is easy though. It's an oppressive mist that hangs over the ground for several rounds, slowing those within and making them Dave again each round to avoid worse effects like paralysis and so forth. Maybe the eventual final effect is basically an eternal coma.

[Frathe]

Sloth is easy though. It's an oppressive mist that hangs over the ground for several rounds, slowing those within and making them Dave again each round to avoid worse effects like paralysis and so forth. Maybe the eventual final effect is basically an eternal coma.

I guess that makes sense.

I have something I feel like I need to say, though, or actually two things:

1. While I like the idea that's come up of "punishment" breath weapons, it leaves me uncertain of the position of the dragons. Are they some kind of divine creation to punish sin? Or are they demonic pursuers more in the Divine Comedy vein? I can't answer these questions, because this is no longer really my idea.

2. My original use of the sins was to characterize the seven types of dragon in contrast to each other, and to give them personalities and flaws that PCs could figure out and exploit through roleplaying. For that reason, I didn't want to name them directly after the sins, because I wanted players to have to figure out their weaknesses (for example, bribing a Greed dragon would get you far but would terribly offend a Pride dragon). That's why I brought in the rainbow color theming, to have matched set naming that wouldn't make the sins too obvious to players.

To reiterate: While I really like the sin punishing idea, it brings in an element of avenging angel/pursuing demon that isn't really clearly defined in my mind. My dragons were natural creatures with the sins as defining/separating characteristics. They weren't meant to be Celestial or Nine Hells-type Outsiders. While I like the idea, I feel the credit for that version belongs mostly to vasharanpaladin (and partly to my lack of clarity). I would be fine with someone else using the punishinment version as long as vasharanpaladin gave permission.

[vasharanpaladin]

Not like I do much with my ideas anyway, standing policy is that if I mention it in someone else's thread without links, it's fair game.

At any rate, then, ideas for "natural" sin dragons...

Wrath is swift, brutal, and terrifying (CE). Lower average Intelligence, more powerful frightful presence. Probably the smallest of this set. Breath weapon should be a combination of fire and acid (dealing with a vitriolic temper, after all), natural weapons should augment like the tarrasque's bite as the dragon grows older. Downplay the spell-like abilities and sorcerer casting, possibly replace them with a natural rage progression (give special resistance to calm emotions). A wrath dragon should have very easy access to the Bloodscaled Fury prestige class.

Sloth, on the other hand, is slow, brooding, deliberate malice (NE). This dragon has the worst maneuverability in the air, the slowest movement speeds, but is the most intelligent. Breath weapon is best represented by Djinn's idea; a cloud that messes with morale, one that lingers naturally and gradually brings activity to a complete stop. Spell-like abilities and spellcasting should focus on debuffs, crushing despair being the most thematic among them.

Gluttony is unrestrained hunger, malice without inhibition (CE). This dragon is the largest, has the strongest Constitution, but its bulk is, odd among dragons, fat (Deformity: Obese). Breath weapon sucks creatures in the area into its mouth for an automatic bite + Swallow Whole. In addition to frightful presence, this dragon is covered with filth and waste, the stench demanding a Fort save to resist becoming nauseated. Magic abilities should include spells themed around devouring others, as well as reduce person or some facsimile.

Greed is the desire for material wealth, the love of money above all things (N or NE). Older dragons tend to wear their hoards compressed into their hides, gaining the highest natural armor of this type of dragon. Breath weapon is a cone of gold dust that deals additional damage for each magic item the victim possesses. This dragon has abilities similar to a rogue, rather than a sorcerer (much like a wrath dragon is a barbarian), as well as the ability to wear two magic items per body slot. By far the easiest of these dragons to sway, if one has the coin.

Lust is the desire for pleasures of the flesh, the urge to feel without restraint (CN or CE). This dragon has very little natural armor, the better to feel tactile stimuli, and builds up a tolerance for drugs and poisons as it grows older. Breath weapon is a cone of gas that causes confusion. Magic abilities should feature charm effects, as well as sadism and masochism.

Envy is the desire for what others possess, or more strongly, the desire to see others suffer (NE). This dragon is small, weak, frail, and none too bright, but has great Charisma and thus great magic potential. Breath weapon is a cone of gas that is essentially pure spite, requiring two saves to pass; a character who passes the Fort save to avoid having his physical stats funneled into the dragon must then make a Will save to avoid attacking his nearest ally to the best of his ability. Abilities emphasize a lack of self-image; this dragon has low Strength, Constitution and Intelligence, weak scales, doesn't fly well, all it has is its magic. Spell-like abilities and spell selection should focus on personal buffs.

Finally, Pride is the love of the self above all else, vainglory to the point of hubris (LE). Not particularly small or large, but beautiful to look upon, this dragon lacks frightful presence, instead having a fascination effect. Breath weapon is a blast of chilling scorn, low damage but locks the victims in place temporarily. This dragon does not consider that any other creature (even other dragons of the same type!) might possibly be able to harm it; it has naturally high stats, and no buffing abilities. Further, deception is beneath this wyrm; it never lies, nor speaks ironically, and effectively has no Bluff skill. Spell-like abilities and spell selection should emphasize this self-determined superiority; no defensive spells, buffs, illusions or charm effects.

[Frathe]

Not like I do much with my ideas anyway, standing policy is that if I mention it in someone else's thread without links, it's fair game.

At any rate, then, ideas for "natural" sin dragons...

Wrath is swift, brutal, and terrifying (CE). Lower average Intelligence, more powerful frightful presence. Probably the smallest of this set. Breath weapon should be a combination of fire and acid (dealing with a vitriolic temper, after all), natural weapons should augment like the tarrasque's bite as the dragon grows older. Downplay the spell-like abilities and sorcerer casting, possibly replace them with a natural rage progression (give special resistance to calm emotions). A wrath dragon should have very easy access to the Bloodscaled Fury prestige class.

Sloth, on the other hand, is slow, brooding, deliberate malice (NE). This dragon has the worst maneuverability in the air, the slowest movement speeds, but is the most intelligent. Breath weapon is best represented by Djinn's idea; a cloud that messes with morale, one that lingers naturally and gradually brings activity to a complete stop. Spell-like abilities and spellcasting should focus on debuffs, crushing despair being the most thematic among them.

Gluttony is unrestrained hunger, malice without inhibition (CE). This dragon is the largest, has the strongest Constitution, but its bulk is, odd among dragons, fat (Deformity: Obese). Breath weapon sucks creatures in the area into its mouth for an automatic bite + Swallow Whole. In addition to frightful presence, this dragon is covered with filth and waste, the stench demanding a Fort save to resist becoming nauseated. Magic abilities should include spells themed around devouring others, as well as reduce person or some facsimile.

Greed is the desire for material wealth, the love of money above all things (N or NE). Older dragons tend to wear their hoards compressed into their hides, gaining the highest natural armor of this type of dragon. Breath weapon is a cone of gold dust that deals additional damage for each magic item the victim possesses. This dragon has abilities similar to a rogue, rather than a sorcerer (much like a wrath dragon is a barbarian), as well as the ability to wear two magic items per body slot. By far the easiest of these dragons to sway, if one has the coin.

Lust is the desire for pleasures of the flesh, the urge to feel without restraint (CN or CE). This dragon has very little natural armor, the better to feel tactile stimuli, and builds up a tolerance for drugs and poisons as it grows older. Breath weapon is a cone of gas that causes confusion. Magic abilities should feature charm effects, as well as sadism and masochism.

Envy is the desire for what others possess, or more strongly, the desire to see others suffer (NE). This dragon is small, weak, frail, and none too bright, but has great Charisma and thus great magic potential. Breath weapon is a cone of gas that is essentially pure spite, requiring two saves to pass; a character who passes the Fort save to avoid having his physical stats funneled into the dragon must then make a Will save to avoid attacking his nearest ally to the best of his ability. Abilities emphasize a lack of self-image; this dragon has low Strength, Constitution and Intelligence, weak scales, doesn't fly well, all it has is its magic. Spell-like abilities and spell selection should focus on personal buffs.

Finally, Pride is the love of the self above all else, vainglory to the point of hubris (LE). Not particularly small or large, but beautiful to look upon, this dragon lacks frightful presence, instead having a fascination effect. Breath weapon is a blast of chilling scorn, low damage but locks the victims in place temporarily. This dragon does not consider that any other creature (even other dragons of the same type!) might possibly be able to harm it; it has naturally high stats, and no buffing abilities. Further, deception is beneath this wyrm; it never lies, nor speaks ironically, and effectively has no Bluff skill. Spell-like abilities and spell selection should emphasize this self-determined superiority; no defensive spells, buffs, illusions or charm effects.

Cool! I like your ideas, anyway.

Now a point by point:

Wrath: I'm not sure what you mean by a combination of fire and acid. Superheated acid that dealt fire damage would work, or you could give it two different breath weapons. I hadn't known about the Bloodscaled Fury prestige class, but that seems perfect; I was already giving the Red dragon rage abilities.

Sloth: Yeah, Djinn's idea seems quite solid; it even successfully transfers from a punishment to a "natural" representation.

Gluttony: I'm not sure if the nauseating filth should be an obligatory race feature (maybe it gets worse in older dragons). I'm also not sure why they get a reduce person-type spell; is it to make creatures easier to fit in their mouth?

Greed: I like the Greed/rogue, Wrath/barbarian correspondence; it humanizes the dragons in the odd kind of way I was going for. I'm not sure about the breath weapon, though; how does that damage dealing work?

Lust: Confusion breath weapon! Nice! It's almost like a more sensical of my intoxication one (which would've reduce Dex, which isn't even that bad). ...but what exactly are the sadism and masochism abilities?

Envy: I like the idea of Envy as a primarily sorcerous attribute-stealing dragon; perhaps it could steal spells too, a la the spellthief. I'm not sure its breath should have that second effect, though; both attribute stealing and then forced ally-attacking seems too good.

Pride: I see, so the breath weapon would freeze people in place so the dragon could force them to keep looking at it--it would have a captive audience for its showing off.

[Amechra]

Sadism gives you a stacking +1 to rolls in the next round for every 10 damage that you deal to a creature this round.

Masochism is the same thing, but is based off how much damage you take.

In other words, they fit in with the "desiring physical stimulus, regardless of what it is" angle.

[vasharanpaladin]

Wrath: The pyroclastic dragon has a breath weapon that deals half fire and half sonic damage. Same deal here, really; the dragon's not just spewing flames, but vitriol.

Gluttony: Remember I mentioned that gluttony includes taking more than your share and squandering the rest? The idea is, these dragons don't move much. They'll destroy a village, eat a few cows, then sleep on the rest of the corpses while they rot. Or perhaps as some evolutionary mechanism: The dragon is fat and slow, so it wallows in rot and filth to create something to prevent other dragons from coming near it, protecting itself that way. And, yes, the shrinking spell's meant to ensure that there's nothing it can't swallow if it had a mind to.

Greed: Deals base, let's say, bludgeoning damage, for starters. Then it checks the level of each target (as well as presence of magic items) and deals greater damage for each. The dragon can thus use this to determine who has the most Stuff, so that it can focus on that target first.

Lust: Sadism and masochism are found in the Book of Vile Darkness (don't know if they've been rewritten since then). Sadism grants a cumulative luck bonus for every 10 points of damage the target deals, while masochism grants a similar luck bonus when the target takes damage. In essence, the dragon is so wired on tactile sensation that it processes pain as pleasure!

Envy: Eh, I was going for "if I can't have it, no one can," which in retrospect might be better represented by damage on failing the first save. And I didn't think of the spellthief, either, good on ya.

Pride: Actually, this one makes sense as a punisher as well... a hypocrite, really. The pride dragon sees itself as nothing less than a god... capital G, of course. Those who don't kowtow to its whims are hubristic savages, to be punished for their sin of pride. And what better punishment for the prideful, than to be forced to stand in silent adoration of their better?

[Frathe]

Sadism gives you a stacking +1 to rolls in the next round for every 10 damage that you deal to a creature this round.

Masochism is the same thing, but is based off how much damage you take.

In other words, they fit in with the "desiring physical stimulus, regardless of what it is" angle.

Thanks for the details on masochism and sadism there, Amechra. I had no idea those were lurking in a sourcebook.

Wrath: The pyroclastic dragon has a breath weapon that deals half fire and half sonic damage. Same deal here, really; the dragon's not just spewing flames, but vitriol.

Gluttony: Remember I mentioned that gluttony includes taking more than your share and squandering the rest? The idea is, these dragons don't move much. They'll destroy a village, eat a few cows, then sleep on the rest of the corpses while they rot. Or perhaps as some evolutionary mechanism: The dragon is fat and slow, so it wallows in rot and filth to create something to prevent other dragons from coming near it, protecting itself that way. And, yes, the shrinking spell's meant to ensure that there's nothing it can't swallow if it had a mind to.

Greed: Deals base, let's say, bludgeoning damage, for starters. Then it checks the level of each target (as well as presence of magic items) and deals greater damage for each. The dragon can thus use this to determine who has the most Stuff, so that it can focus on that target first.

Lust: Sadism and masochism are found in the Book of Vile Darkness (don't know if they've been rewritten since then). Sadism grants a cumulative luck bonus for every 10 points of damage the target deals, while masochism grants a similar luck bonus when the target takes damage. In essence, the dragon is so wired on tactile sensation that it processes pain as pleasure!

Envy: Eh, I was going for "if I can't have it, no one can," which in retrospect might be better represented by damage on failing the first save. And I didn't think of the spellthief, either, good on ya.

Pride: Actually, this one makes sense as a punisher as well... a hypocrite, really. The pride dragon sees itself as nothing less than a god... capital G, of course. Those who don't kowtow to its whims are hubristic savages, to be punished for their sin of pride. And what better punishment for the prideful, than to be forced to stand in silent adoration of their better?

vasharanpaladin: Thanks for expanding on the Pride dragon's motivations; that makes more sense with its "I'm [a] God" worldview. About the Greed dragon: I should have been clearer, what I don't quite understand is the in-game logic. Why would gold dust deal extra damage based on magic item possession? Is it just attached enchantment? And would that extra damage also be bludgeoning?


Does anyone think "Seven Deadly Dragons" or something in that vein would be a more helpful name for this thread? I realize no one knows what "iridian" means.

[vasharanpaladin]

To be clearer, the damage is dealt by the dragon's magic in its breath. The gold dust serves as a handy marker for how the dragon simply knows which PC has the best/most stuff to work with.

And no, it doesn't have to be bludgeoning at all, I just put down the first damage type that came to mind.