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    Default Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    So many choices, yet the need to stay true neutral , and a lack of allies, as you don't believe in anything but the balance. Being true neutral seems an advantage from casting most any spell of alignment needs that are do not be this sort of thing, instead of you must be this sort of thing. but am finding it a headache, for any sort of planar ally spell, seem to be lacking in anything to use as tools?

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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    True Neutral characters don't need to believe in balance. Most people are True Neutral simply because they don't have meaningfully strong feelings about Good, Evil, Law, or Chaos. If they're fighting for something, it's for deeply personal convictions (or boredom) rather than any sort of grand crusade.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    Let's look at the core TN deities, and see what a TN cleric of each might campaign for.

    Boccob. A cleric of Boccob might be a scholar or archivist that delves into ancient ruins for insight into magical phenomena. He might be a pious Indiana Jones who believes not with quasi-religious conviction, but with actual religious conviction, that ancient artifacts belong in a museum. Or he might desire to put an end to the evil necromancer because he gives magic a bad name.

    Obad-Hai. A cleric of Obad-Hai might adventure for the same reasons as a druid. Perhaps said evil necromancer blights the land with undead, an abomination to Creation. Or maybe he wants to gather support for a campaign to end logging in a pristine forest, and the best way to do that is to clear out the bandits from the non-pristine forest. Or he serves the more human-centric side of his god and tends a flock of farmers, who have been oppressed by a horrible dictator. Though he wouldn't necessarily do so for any other people, messing with those farmers is the same as messing with him is the same as messing with his god.

    Fharlanghn. This is the easiest of the three. A cleric of Fharlanghn probably adventures to see new sights and learn new things. He might wish to end a plague of bandits attacking travelers, or seek to stop a war that had resulted in the border between two countries being closed. Or he might want to protect a group of itinerant adventurers because he sees them as his god's natural interests.

    Also remember that you can have a True Neutral character that believes in things like truth and love and altruism and fluffy bunnies so long as he's willing to murder, lie, torture, and decapitate kittens to achieve them.
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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    The benefits of being extremely good or extremely evil far outweigh any benefits of neutrality. If you want a divine caster who believes in balance, play a Druid. Planar Ally would get Elementals for a neutral character.

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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    Well, the Forgotten Realms has at least 28, TN deity's! And just to note, a TN cleric can summon anything....TN does not have an opposing alignment.

    Gond:A great knowledge example. A cleric of Gond would make a device for anyone for any reason. They don't care about politics or good or evil or any of that stuff. They just want to make tech.

    Oghma:Another knowledge example. And again they don't care what is done with the knowledge.

    Waukeen:Trade. It does not matter what or how, just trade.

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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    The real woe is if they start slipping. A TN cleric of Boccob who slips into NE won't get warnings, because Boccob has no objection. But then he goes to heal a friend and it comes out as inflict. Or on the other side, he goes to command some undead to help out but he's been too nice and destroys them instead.

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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    Haha I like that

    Cleric: Right, I cast Infict Serious Wounds on that guy.
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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff the Green View Post
    Also remember that you can have a True Neutral character that believes in things like truth and love and altruism and fluffy bunnies so long as he's willing to murder, lie, torture, and decapitate kittens to achieve them.
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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by dspeyer View Post
    The real woe is if they start slipping. A TN cleric of Boccob who slips into NE won't get warnings, because Boccob has no objection. But then he goes to heal a friend and it comes out as inflict. Or on the other side, he goes to command some undead to help out but he's been too nice and destroys them instead.
    It doesn't "come out" as Inflict. An Evil cleric would simply be unable to spontaneously cast Cure spells, but there's no reason to assume that an Evil cleric trying to channel a Cure spell will have it come out as Inflict instead of simply failing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    Regarding planar ally, there are plenty of TN choices. Just from the Monster Manual, TN choices include...

    Elementals
    Arrowhawks
    Janni
    Mephits
    Rasts
    Ravids
    Tojanida
    Xorn

    ...OK, never mind, that kind of sucks. But I'm sure there are better TN outsiders/elementals in other splatbooks. MM2 is always good for a laugh.
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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff the Green View Post
    Also remember that you can have a True Neutral character that believes in things like truth and love and altruism and fluffy bunnies so long as he's willing to murder, lie, torture, and decapitate kittens to achieve them.
    Depends on the DM- some will enforce rapid slide to Evil if the character is routinely committing very evil acts, even if the neutral character retains "belief in love and altruism".
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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Anecronwashere View Post
    Cleric: Right, I cast Infict Serious Wounds on that guy.
    DM: Sorry, you kissed too many babies this week, you heal him instead
    Cleric: Quick! Someone find me a dog to kick
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anecronwashere View Post
    Cleric: Right, I cast Infict Serious Wounds on that guy.
    DM: Sorry, you kissed too many babies this week, you heal him instead
    Cleric: Quick! Someone find me a dog to kick

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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Techwarrior View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff the Green View Post
    Also remember that you can have a True Neutral character that believes in things like truth and love and altruism and fluffy bunnies so long as he's willing to murder, lie, torture, and decapitate kittens to achieve them.
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    Ditto. I spewed coke all over my screen when I read this.
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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    Sig away.
    Also: Yay my first sig-quote
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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by silverwolfer View Post
    So many choices, yet the need to stay true neutral , and a lack of allies, as you don't believe in anything but the balance. Being true neutral seems an advantage from casting most any spell of alignment needs that are do not be this sort of thing, instead of you must be this sort of thing. but am finding it a headache, for any sort of planar ally spell, seem to be lacking in anything to use as tools?
    Well, My advice would be to not be a theist cleric. Be an athiest cleric. A cleric need not be defined by his god, but what he is attached to. A cleric without a god is one who is close to being a god himself. The concepts are what give him power.

    A cleric of fire and Protection is blessed by the torch-flame, which keeps enemies away. A cleric of time and death is the herald of the truth of limits. Nothing lasts forever, and through understanding that, each minute is cherished even more.


    Making conceptual clerics is one of the most flavorful classes there are.

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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Techwarrior View Post
    Mind if I sig this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Eonir View Post
    Ditto. I spewed coke all over my screen when I read this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Depends on the DM- some will enforce rapid slide to Evil if the character is routinely committing very evil acts, even if the neutral character retains "belief in love and altruism".
    True. I probably would too (or at least have a very serious discussion with the player), but a willingness to do evil in the service of good is different from routine atrocity.
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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    I have always been a fan of a Halfling Cleric of Luck and Nobility. Mechanically I get 2 rerolls /day and fluff is I am a prince who gained my kingdom by luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anecronwashere View Post
    Cleric: Right, I cast Infict Serious Wounds on that guy.
    DM: Sorry, you kissed too many babies this week, you heal him instead
    Cleric: Quick! Someone find me a dog to kick

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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    It doesn't "come out" as Inflict. An Evil cleric would simply be unable to spontaneously cast Cure spells, but there's no reason to assume that an Evil cleric trying to channel a Cure spell will have it come out as Inflict instead of simply failing.
    Why is everyone assuming this is how it works?

    "A cleric who is neither good nor evil and whose deity is neither good nor evil can convert spells to either cure spells or inflict spells (player’s choice). Once the player makes this choice, it cannot be reversed. This choice also determines whether the cleric turns or commands undead."
    (Spontaneous Casting for the Cleric)

    You make the choice at character creation. It sticks with you for as long as you have class features. A spontaneous-healing (and turn undead) Cleric that turns evil still spontaneously heals and turns undead.
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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by erikun View Post
    Why is everyone assuming this is how it works?

    "A cleric who is neither good nor evil and whose deity is neither good nor evil can convert spells to either cure spells or inflict spells (player’s choice). Once the player makes this choice, it cannot be reversed. This choice also determines whether the cleric turns or commands undead."
    (Spontaneous Casting for the Cleric)

    You make the choice at character creation. It sticks with you for as long as you have class features. A spontaneous-healing (and turn undead) Cleric that turns evil still spontaneously heals and turns undead.
    No. That rule (you choose one and stick with it) is talking about the choice between positive and negative that a neutral cleric gets to make. If you are no longer a neutral cleric, the rule no longer applies, because it is a rule for neutral clerics and you are not a neutral cleric any longer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by DMVerdandi View Post
    Well, My advice would be to not be a theist cleric. Be an athiest cleric. A cleric need not be defined by his god, but what he is attached to. A cleric without a god is one who is close to being a god himself. The concepts are what give him power.

    A cleric of fire and Protection is blessed by the torch-flame, which keeps enemies away. A cleric of time and death is the herald of the truth of limits. Nothing lasts forever, and through understanding that, each minute is cherished even more.


    Making conceptual clerics is one of the most flavorful classes there are.
    I completely agree with this. Many people out there say that playing a conceptual cleric is just for lazy people, or power gamers who want to choose whatever domains they want, but it's my favourite kind of cleric to play by far. I don't like feeling like my characters are only as great as they are because someone else handed them power, and that if they stray from the strict codes of that certain someone, that power is lost, perhaps forever. An atheist cleric can still be a pious, even religious person in a way, but he does what he does not because someone he believes in tells him to do it, but because he believes that doing it is the right thing to do. It is that belief itself, not some god, that gives him the power to further it. Conceptual clerics are often the most well-developed and interesting characters out there. Plus, you get to seem mysterious and exotic to all those confused NPCs who simply can't fathom what exactly your deal is.


    If you want to be a conceptual cleric who believes in balance above all else, that's fine, but I usually find that a really tricky character to play. Talk to your DM about it. I always let my characters stick to negative or positive based on their god or their belief, rather than having it change every time your alignment changes (and with neutral clerics, it seems to happen pretty awesome often*. They're extreme fellows, those clerics).

    *How is it that I always type awesome in place of other words? Perhaps I should calm down.
    Last edited by Fates; 2012-12-23 at 10:16 AM.
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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by DMVerdandi View Post
    Well, My advice would be to not be a theist cleric. Be an athiest cleric. A cleric need not be defined by his god, but what he is attached to. A cleric without a god is one who is close to being a god himself. The concepts are what give him power.

    A cleric of fire and Protection is blessed by the torch-flame, which keeps enemies away. A cleric of time and death is the herald of the truth of limits. Nothing lasts forever, and through understanding that, each minute is cherished even more.


    Making conceptual clerics is one of the most flavorful classes there are.
    I also tend to play my Clerics a bit to 8 Bit Theater-ish.

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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    Quote Originally Posted by TopCheese View Post
    I also tend to play my Clerics a bit to 8 Bit Theater-ish.
    Better a hammer-weilder than a healbot with no strength, or so I hear.

    Anyway, in regards to the OP, I used to think TN was the most optimized alignment, until I realized that it effectively bars a cleric from casting Dictum or Holy Word, and doesn't help against Chaos Hammer or Blasphemy. And it only mitigates a few spells, so I've started to think the trade-off is not really worth it.

    On the plus side for TN clerics: you get to choose cure or inflict, and have Fharlanghn (with Travel domain) as your deity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockdeworld View Post
    Better a hammer-weilder than a healbot with no strength, or so I hear.
    White Mage was a healer, not a cleric.

    Cleric was the Aethist who stabbed Thief with a Healing Shiv given by the trickster raven god

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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    In a pile of loot my party found a sword called the Apathy Whacker. It was a +2 Longsword that dealt +4d6 damage to true neutral creatures with an intelligence of 3 or higher.

    Quote Originally Posted by rockdeworld View Post
    On the plus side for TN clerics: you get to choose cure or inflict, and have Fharlanghn (with Travel domain) as your deity.
    So does a lawful or chaotic netural cleric. Fharlanghn accepts clerics of any neutral alignment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    The benefits of being extremely good or extremely evil far outweigh any benefits of neutrality. If you want a divine caster who believes in balance, play a Druid. Planar Ally would get Elementals for a neutral character.
    This. And imo Good trumps since you can always go Malconvoker and still get the useful nasties, plus spontaneous curing beats spontaneous inflict at the end of the day when you have a bunch of low-level slots left over and a banged up party.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    This. And imo Good trumps since you can always go Malconvoker and still get the useful nasties, plus spontaneous curing beats spontaneous inflict at the end of the day when you have a bunch of low-level slots left over and a banged up party.
    True, but on the other side of things, rebuking is way more useful than turning if you're willing to invest in it. (Of course, only dread necromancers use rebuking for their intended purposes, clerics are too busy feeding the Divine Metamagic machine...)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles View Post
    True, but on the other side of things, rebuking is way more useful than turning if you're willing to invest in it. (Of course, only dread necromancers use rebuking for their intended purposes, clerics are too busy feeding the Divine Metamagic machine...)
    You yourself provided the counterpoint - since the best use of turning/rebuking is neither to turn nor rebuke, that is much less of a deciding factor.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
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    Default Re: Oh woe to the Neutral Cleric

    Spontaneous curing isn't really that important. Heal is not a cure spell and once combat is over wands or the vigor spells are more practical uses for healing as they'd use up less or no spell slots and Malconvoker only lets you ignore alignment restrictions for conjuration.(its also d4 and poor base attack not a good class for clerics)

    Much can also depend on what your DM allows and how the campaign is.

    If your DM doesn't allow divine metamagic.(a very sane choice). Turning vs rebuking becomes a little more important. A swarm of low to mid HD shadows or wraiths can be quite the hassle to a mid level party.

    Presuming you don't have the level to outright destroy or control them sending them fleeing means they'll just go deeper into the dungeon and possible be encountered in an even larger group then before. Rebuking will make them cower and allow the rest of the party to dispatch them while the cleric hangs back.

    On the other hand so much of what one fights in D&D tends to be evil aligned. (even if one or two party members are evil themselves). So Holy Word would in general be more useful then blasphemy, dictim or word of chaos. Unless its an evil campaign but then you need to be evil. Evil Clerics can also use animate dead to provide useful meatshields.

    If your DM allows Consumption Field then evil has a real edge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    In a pile of loot my party found a sword called the Apathy Whacker. It was a +2 Longsword that dealt +4d6 damage to true neutral creatures with an intelligence of 3 or higher.
    How many times do you come into conflict with TN NPCs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    If your DM doesn't allow divine metamagic.(a very sane choice)
    There's nothing inherently broken about Divine Metamagic. It's powerful, but not gamebreaking. It only gets stupid if you're allowed to stack Nightsticks/similar shenanigans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mephit View Post
    There's nothing inherently broken about Divine Metamagic. It's powerful, but not gamebreaking. It only gets stupid if you're allowed to stack Nightsticks/similar shenanigans.
    Allowing players to cast spells of a level they have no business casting is broken. Metamagic Song, the Bard equivalent, very sanely puts a cap on the effective level of the spell equal to the level the character can normally cast.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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