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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Zman's Fighter Fix(3.5)

    Due to the number of Fighter Fixes that are floating around, I decided to try my hand at it.

    This may end up being part of a project to bring most of the classes to Tiers 2-4.

    Most would agree the base fighter is a poorly designed class. Here is my attempt to fix it, bringing it up to a High Tier 4 class. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, but simply make Fighter a more viable option. The goal is to give the fighter more options in and outside of combat and also to reduce the sever limitations put on the class.

    Modifications to the Basic Fighter are bolded below. The Base fighter still receives everything they would have before which primarily includes the fighter bonus feats as listed.

    Summary of Changes
    Spoiler
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    The Fighter gains a Good Reflex Save, a better skill list, and more skill points per level. The Fighter also gains a few new abilities which include the ability to two dice for will saves, increase maximum Dex in armor and lower ACP. The Fighter also gains the ability to sacrifice Iterative attacks for an increased chance to hit and deal damage with their other attacks. The Fighter also gains the ability to make additional attacks as a standard and charge actions in addition to gaining an additional 5' step.


    Additions and Changes to the Fighter class.
    Table of Changes
    Custom
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

    1st|+1|+2|+2|+0|Bonus Feat

    2nd|+2|+3|+3|+0|Bonus Feat

    3rd|+3|+3|+3|+1|Obstinate

    4th|+4|+4|+4|+1|Bonus Feat

    5th|+5|+4|+4|+1|Armored Comfort 1

    6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+2|Bonus Feat, Measured Strike

    7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+2|Quick Strike

    8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+2|Bonus Feat

    9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+3|Battlefield Movement, Obstinate 2x/day

    10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+3|Bonus Feat

    11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+3|Armored Comfort 2

    12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+4|Bonus Feat

    13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+4|Obstinate 3x/day

    14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+4|Bonus Feat

    15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+5|Veteran

    16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+5|Bonus Feat

    17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+5|Armored Comfort 3, Obstinate 4x/day
    18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+6|Bonus Feat

    19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+6|Press the Advantage

    20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+6|Bonus Feat, Legend

    [/table]

    Class Skills:
    Class Skills
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier


    Alignment
    Any.

    Hit Die
    d10.

    Saves
    Fort:Good
    Ref: Good
    Will: Poor

    Class Skills
    The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance(Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Gather Information(Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide(Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge Dungeoneering(Int), Knowledge Local(Int), Listen(Wis), Move Silently(Dex), Ride (Dex), Search(Int), Spot(Wis), Survival(Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble(Dex) and Use Rope(Dex).

    Skill Points at 1st Level
    (4 + Int modifier) ×4.

    Skill Points at Each Additional Level
    4 + Int modifier.

    Class Features
    All of the following are class features of the fighter.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

    Bonus Feats
    At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

    These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

    Obstinate

    At Level 3 Fighter is truly stubborn, once per day they can choose to roll two will saves and take the better value. This decision must be made prior to the first save being attempted. At 9th, 13th, and 17th levels the Fighter gains another use per day of the Obstinate ability.


    Armored Comfort

    At 5th level the Fighter grows more comfortable in any armor that he wears, the Max Dexterity Modifier of the armor increases by 1 and the Armor Check Penalty of shields and armor is decreased by 1 for the fighter. This ability increases its bonus to Maximum Dexterity Modifier, and its reduction to Armor Check Penalty by an additional one at 11th and 17th levels for a total of +3 bonus to the Maximum Dexterity Modifier of any armor wornand a total bonus of -3 to the Armor Check Penalty of any armor worn or shield used at 17th level. The Fighter also ignores movement penalties for Medium Armor at 5th Level and Heavy armor at 11th level.

    As an added benefit the fighter also gains a competency bonus equal to his Armored Comfort Level to AC(+1 at 5th, +2 at 11th, and +3 at 17th level). This bonus also applies when unarmored.


    Measured Strike

    At 6th level the Fighter learns to measure his strikes to land powerful blows. When making iterative attacks the fighter can forgo an iterative attack to grant an untyped +5 bonus to hit and deal an additional d6 points of damage with each attack until the start of his next round. Any number of Iterative attacks can be sacrificed in this fashion. The decision to sacrifice an iterative attack must be made prior to making any attacks that round.


    Quick Strike

    At 7th level the Fighter cans the ability to make their first iterative attack when attacking as a standard action or as part of a charge. This grants the fighter a second attack on the charge. A two weapon fighter can use Quick Strike to attack with their off hand weapon instead of making an iterative attack.


    Battlefield Movement

    At 9th level the Fighter is more adept at moving around the battlefield, he now can take an additional 5' step per round. All of the standard rules for making a 5' step apply to this additional 5' step.


    Veteran

    At 15th level the Fighter is truly a veteran of battle, he doubles the critical threat range of any weapon he has Weapon Focus with. If the Fighter already benefits from an effect that doubles his critical threat range such as the Improved Critical Feat or Keen Weapon Enhancement he instead expands his critical range by one.


    Press the Advantage

    At 19th level the Fighter can swing with all of its attacks as a standard action and as part of a charge. This includes making all iterative attacks and off hand strikes.


    Legend

    At 20th level the Fighter is truly a legendary Combatant automatically confirming any critical threat with any weapon he has Weapon Specialization with.


    ACF's
    Spoiler
    Show


    Armored Mage

    Level: 1st
    Replaces: Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiencies, Shield Proficiencies except Light Shields.
    Gained: No Arcane Spell Failure in Light Armor or with Light Shields.


    Dungeon Delver

    Level: 2nd
    Loses: Fighter Bonus Feat
    Gains: Trapfinding(Knowledge Dungeoneering to find traps)


    Knight

    Level: 1st
    Replaces: Fighter Bonus feat at 1st, 2nd, and 4th level.
    Gains:
    1st: Mounted Combat, Born in the Saddle
    2nd: Ride-by Attack
    4th: Spirited Charge
    5th: Mount, as Druids Animal Companion(Good Progression). Must be a Light War Horse, Heavy Warhorse, Riding Dog, or other Similar approved mount.

    Born in the Saddle: the Knight adds 1/2 his Knight, to a minimum of 1, Level to Handle Animal and Ride Checks involving any animal he is attempting to use as a mount. A knight may always take 10 for Ride and handle Animal checks involving any animal he is using for a mount.


    Sword and Shield Style

    Level: 5th
    Loses: Armored Comfort
    Gains: Sword and Shield Style: Improve Shield bonus by 1, reduce Shield ACF by 1, +2 Damage with Single Handed Weapons(While using a Shield). Shield bonus applies to Touch AC. These bonus each improve by one at 11th and 17th levels.
    As an added benefit the fighter also gains a competency bonus equal to his Armored Comfort Level to AC(+1 at 5th, +2 at 11th, and +3 at 17th level). This bonus also applies when unarmored.


    Thug

    Level: 1st
    Loses: 1st Level Fighter Bonus Feat, Meadium and Heavy Armor Proficiencies, Tower Shield Proficiency.
    Gains: 6 Skill Points per level, Urban Tracking, and Quick Draw.


    Last edited by Zman; 2013-12-24 at 11:51 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Fighter Fix(3.5)

    Changelog:
    12-23-12
    Added a Table summarizing the changes.

    12-27-12
    Added Knowledge Local to Class Skills

    1-5-12
    Added AC bonus to Armored Comfort

    1-12
    Added Ignore Movement penalties for medium and heavy Armor at Lvls 5 and 11. Clarified Armored Comfort's abilities and let them affect Shields.

    1-26-13
    Added Armored Mage ACF

    1-30-13
    Moved Press the Advantage to 19th
    Added Veteran at 15th
    Added Legend at 20th

    2-7-13
    Added Sword and Shield ACF

    12-8-13
    Added Use Rope as a Class Skill
    Added Thug ACF
    Added Dungeon Delver ACF

    12-24-13
    Added Knight ACF
    Last edited by Zman; 2013-12-24 at 11:44 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Fighter Fix(3.5)

    Is a table absolutely necessary when he's proposing a hotfix at certain levels instead of a complete class rewrite?

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Zman's Fighter Fix(3.5)

    Obstinate This ability does not seem so useful. A couple of double rolls a day is not much. It would be much better to add an ability that works all the time, such as A Fighter adds his Constitution modifier, if any, to all Will saves.

    Measured Strike/Quick Strike What does this do? Maybe just like Fighter is capable of performing a number of attacks in quick succession. Instead of being a full round action, a full attack is instead treated as a standard action?

    Press the Advantage Does not seem very 20th level like ability.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Fighter Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Brau View Post
    Is a table absolutely necessary when he's proposing a hotfix at certain levels instead of a complete class rewrite?
    I didn't think that completely rewriting the table was required as this class is an add on for the Core Fighter and modifies what is already there. It seems like a much faster and easier to understand method than completely rewriting the entire class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorr View Post
    Obstinate This ability does not seem so useful. A couple of double rolls a day is not much. It would be much better to add an ability that works all the time, such as A Fighter adds his Constitution modifier, if any, to all Will saves.

    I was trying to avoid another static bonus, allowing the player to choose to use it on those critical Will saves gives the player something to do and does make a measurable difference. And as to use, on average it is more effective than a simple static bonus barring an extremely high con or a completely dumped Wisdom. Con to Will saves just doesn't feel right to me.

    Measured Strike/Quick Strike What does this do? Maybe just like Fighter is capable of performing a number of attacks in quick succession. Instead of being a full round action, a full attack is instead treated as a standard action?

    Measured Strike lets the fighter give up an iterative attack for a bonus to hit and damage with their other attacks. Effectively giving up the lowest odds of hitting attack to make the other attacks more effective.

    For instance, a lvl 6 fighter has a BAB of +6/+1. On a full attack he can either make two attacks, one at +6 and the other at +1 or a single attack at +11 with an additional d6 to damage.

    A lvl 16 Fighter could make attacks at BAB +16/+11/+6/+1 or it could use Measured Strike an sacrifice its last two iterative attack giving it two attacks at +26/+21 for an additional +2d6 damage on each strike.

    This ability mainly gives the fighter flexibility and the ability to reduce the number of attacks to increase accuracy, or potentially sacrifice more to hit with Power Attack and land harder blows. The main purpose is to give the fighter options and things to do besides "I full attack with my sword." It also gives Two Weapon Fighters a bit of an edge.


    Quick Strike allows a Fighter to make its normal single strike and one Iterative attack or offhand attack as part of standard action attack or charge. This allows the lvl 6 Charging Fighter to Strike at +8/+3 or use Measured Strike and attack at +13 with +d6 Damage on the Charge. And at lvl 16 it could strike at +18/+13 or +23 and +d6 damage on the charge. This ability is not as good as full attacking as a standard action or pounce.


    Press the Advantage Does not seem very 20th level like ability.

    It is an improvement to Quick Strike and effectively gives Pounce and the ability to Full attack as a Standard action. It may not be an extremely powerful Capstone, but it is much better than the Core Fighter gets. It is also a logical progression which would have tactical significance.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Fighter Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zman View Post
    I didn't think that completely rewriting the table was required as this class is an add on for the Core Fighter and modifies what is already there. It seems like a much faster and easier to understand method than completely rewriting the entire class.
    The table generator i linked does everything for you, so long as you give it some thought.

    It also helps present changes more clearly, and helps show if there is an out of place pile up in terms of class features.

    as far as power, it looks like it runs into the problem of fighter overal, which is that Fighter only lives for 6 levels.
    My Homebrew: found here.
    When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes

    PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.

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  8. - Top - End - #8
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Zman's Fighter Fix(3.5)

    I would like to share a few things that I've been playing around with.

    Level 20: Perfect Body

    Dedication to one's path and one's body pays off. Due to the extreme nature of the training a fighter has indured his body has become immune to certain types of magic.

    The Fighter is immune to the following...

    Death Effects, Paralysis, Ability Drain, Ability Damage, Magical Sleep, Exhaustion, Fatigue, and Poison. Any spell, spell like ability, or supernatural ability that causes these effect automatically fail. Natural effects (snake bite, heat, forced march) that cause any of these effects fail. Any sort of mental control that forces the fighter to hurt themself OR anyone that the fighter doesn't think of as an enemy automatically fails. The fighter can still be mind controlled, just not to harm himself or allies. This immunity is only overcomed by the gods themselves.

    Note: I still need to word this correctly but I see this as a great capstone that shows how badass the fighter becomes. Of course I could see other mundane classes gaining something simular.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Fighter Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by TopCheese View Post
    I would like to share a few things that I've been playing around with.

    Level 20: Perfect Body

    Dedication to one's path and one's body pays off. Due to the extreme nature of the training a fighter has indured his body has become immune to certain types of magic.

    The Fighter is immune to the following...

    Death Effects, Paralysis, Ability Drain, Ability Damage, Magical Sleep, Exhaustion, Fatigue, and Poison. Any spell, spell like ability, or supernatural ability that causes these effect automatically fail. Natural effects (snake bite, heat, forced march) that cause any of these effects fail. Any sort of mental control that forces the fighter to hurt themself OR anyone that the fighter doesn't think of as an enemy automatically fails. The fighter can still be mind controlled, just not to harm himself or allies. This immunity is only overcomed by the gods themselves.

    Note: I still need to word this correctly but I see this as a great capstone that shows how badass the fighter becomes. Of course I could see other mundane classes gaining something simular.
    I could see that as a Monk capstone but do not think it fits with Fighter very well.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Zman's Fighter Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zman View Post
    I could see that as a Monk capstone but do not think it fits with Fighter very well.
    I'm not entirely sure why it doesn't fit the fighter but ok. Also that would be (Ex).

    Think of harmful magic like a poison or a virus. The level 20 fighter has been hit with so many spells he would naturally build up an immunity... Well should.

    I don't like the idea of giving the fighter SR, that is more of a monk/psionic/caster thing so giving him an ability that explains that his body/mind (people forget the brain is part of the body sometimes) just flat out is immune to the magics makes sense. Heck from the time 3rd level spells come online I could see an "immunity" being built up in the form of class features.

    I could see a monk capstone being the same magic/natural effects as said before but the monk may ignore the effects for a number of hours/days/months/years equal to their Monk levels.. Starting at level 12 (min), level14 (hours), level 16 (days), level18 (months), level 20 (years). Essentially this means immunity (or not depending on the game) but it shows the monk's training and meditation allowing him mental and physical command over his body. Perhaps he still needs to meditate To continue to ignore the effect. I would also give the monk the ability to ignore spells that entrap such as "trap the soul", forcecage, and entanglement since their ability is more magical in nature and such.

    *shrug*

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Fighter Fix(3.5)

    I personally believe it could use another new ability or two.

    One thing I would suggest would be an ability that's several different options in one. If one wants to be the traditional Knight in Shining Armor archetype, they should be able to get a mount that won't die in one hit at later levels (So, a couple of different reasonable mount options using the Paladin's rules for mount or Druid's rules for animal companion maybe?). Also, maybe consider giving them evasion (And possibly Improved Evasion) at some point since they have a good reflex save now, and it's not an unreasonable ability to give them.

  12. - Top - End - #12
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Zman's Fighter Fix(3.5)

    Pounce is kind of a lame capstone at 20th. I mean, dip Barbarian 1, and you've got it. Be a Catfolk, and you've got it. It's not easy to get, sure, but it's no capstone ability.
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  13. - Top - End - #13
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Fighter Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    I personally believe it could use another new ability or two.

    One thing I would suggest would be an ability that's several different options in one. If one wants to be the traditional Knight in Shining Armor archetype, they should be able to get a mount that won't die in one hit at later levels (So, a couple of different reasonable mount options using the Paladin's rules for mount or Druid's rules for animal companion maybe?). Also, maybe consider giving them evasion (And possibly Improved Evasion) at some point since they have a good reflex save now, and it's not an unreasonable ability to give them.
    A mount is an interesting idea, I'll have to mull it over.

    Quote Originally Posted by TroubleBrewing View Post
    Pounce is kind of a lame capstone at 20th. I mean, dip Barbarian 1, and you've got it. Be a Catfolk, and you've got it. It's not easy to get, sure, but it's no capstone ability.
    It boils down to most of the Core Base classes not having a capstone at all. Capstones are more the territory of PrCs and Homebrew.

    Yes a barbarian can get pounce, but that fact that many people and every optimizer picks that option doesn't mean everyone will or should. If someone wants Pounce, they can get it easier, but it is FAR BETTER than what the base fighter got before which was nothing.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Fighter Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zman View Post
    Yes a barbarian can get pounce, but that fact that many people and every optimizer picks that option doesn't mean everyone will or should. If someone wants Pounce, they can get it easier, but it is FAR BETTER than what the base fighter got before which was nothing.
    its still pretty much nothing. The problem with fighter is that so long as you stick to what are the printed mundane things a class can do, most of those things are not equivalent to class features found after level 6.

    Honestly, id prefer a Kensai varient with Armor Bond and Fortification ACFs, and by that point im really just a slightly better Soulknife
    My Homebrew: found here.
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  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Fighter Fix(3.5)

    Letting the fighter use all his attacks as a standard action should come a LOT earlier than 20th level, I was hoping that was what the 9th level ability was going to be.

    Id let them make full attack actions at 9th level and give them an actual competitive capstone. and by competitive i means omething that is equal to at least an 8th level spell in terms of power and versatility..

    its not fair that at 3rd level a wizard is getting off 5 attacks a round or a druid is doing the melee face-own fest he can do. and the fighter is 15 levels later able to do the same.

    AT 20th level a fighter should be replicating Heracles sundering mountains and the like.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Fighter Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    Letting the fighter use all his attacks as a standard action should come a LOT earlier than 20th level, I was hoping that was what the 9th level ability was going to be.

    Id let them make full attack actions at 9th level and give them an actual competitive capstone. and by competitive i means omething that is equal to at least an 8th level spell in terms of power and versatility..

    its not fair that at 3rd level a wizard is getting off 5 attacks a round or a druid is doing the melee face-own fest he can do. and the fighter is 15 levels later able to do the same.

    AT 20th level a fighter should be replicating Heracles sundering mountains and the like.
    That is your perspective and it does not fit the aim of my fix. I'm looking to bump the fighter to Mid to High Tier 4, he starts off as a High Tier 5. I believe I have accomplished that by adding Versatility both in and out of combat, better defenses, and combat options as well as a reasonable boost to raw power.

    I've read your Fighter Fix and it is definitively the wrong direction and not aligned with my vision.

    And remember, with my line of Fixes those Higher Tiered classes are taking a hit to power, so things don't need to be balanced as far upwards.

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