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    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    This is part of a larger project aimed at bringing all of the base classes into balance, ie Tiers 2-4.

    Some people have a Love/Hate realationship with the Paladin while others have a Hate/Hate relationship with him. Irreguardless the goal is to bring the Paladin up to a High Tier 4 class and slightly relax the strict code of conduct for a Paladin.

    Summary of Changes
    Spoiler
    Show
    The Paladin gians a Good Will save and 4 Skill Points per level. Their spell casting acquisition improves by two levels and their caster level significantly improves. They gain the use of smite evil in uses/encounter with an increased damage. The Code of Conduct has been loosened. Mount has been enhanced.

    Edit: The Paladin is now a Spontaneous Spellcaster.


    Paladin
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |1st|2nd|3rd|4th

    1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Smite Evil 1/encounter, Aura of Good, Detect Evil|ó|ó|ó|ó

    2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Battle Blessing|0|ó|ó|ó

    3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Divine Understanding|0|ó|ó|ó

    4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Turn Undead|1|ó|ó|ó

    5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Smite Evil 2/encounter, Special Mount|1|ó|ó|ó

    6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Remove Disease 1/day|1|0|ó|ó

    7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5||1|0|ó|ó

    8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Voice of Conviction|1|1|ó|ó

    9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Remove Disease 2/day|1|1|0|ó

    10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Smite Evil 3/encounter|1|1|1|ó

    11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7||1|1|1|ó

    12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Remove Disease 3/day|2|1|1|0

    13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8||2|1|1|1

    14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9||2|2|1|1

    15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Remove Disease 4/day, Smite Evil 4/encounter|2|2|2|1

    16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10|Recitation of the Righteous|3|2|2|1

    17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10||3|3|3|2

    18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Remove Disease 5/day|3|3|3|3

    19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11||3|3|3|3

    20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Smite Evil 5/encounter|3|3|3|3

    [/table]
    Alignment: Lawful Good
    Hit Die: 1d10

    Class Skills:
    Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge(nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge(religion) (Int), Listen(Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spot(Wis).
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) ◊ 4
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).

    Aura of Good (Ex): The power of a paladinís aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level.

    Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.

    Smite Evil (Su): Once per encounter, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals her Charisma Modifier x her Paladin level in divine bonus damage. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day. Smite Evil requires a Standard Action, Charge, or as part of a Full Attack. Only one attack per round can benefit from Smite Evil.

    At 5th level, and at every five levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per encounter, as indicated on Table: The Paladin, to a maximum of five times per encounter at 20th level.

    Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

    Lay on Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level x her Charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesnít have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a standard action.

    Alternatively, a paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesnít provoke an attack of opportunity. The paladin decides how many of her daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature.

    Battle Blessing

    You can cast most of your paladin spells faster than normal. If the spell normally requires a standard action, you can cast it as a swift action. If it normally requires a full round to cast, you can cast it as a standard action. Spells with longer or shorter casting times are not affected by this feat.


    Aura of Courage (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 20 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects. This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead.

    Divine Health (Ex): At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.

    Divine Understanding

    At 3rd level the Paladin gains access to a wider range of Divine Power. At 3rd level and every 3 levels there after the Paladin can select one spell from the Cleric list and add it to the Paladin's spell list as a spell of the same level. The spell must be of a level the Paladin can cast.


    Turn Undead (Su): When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a cleric of three levels lower would.

    Spells: Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list. A paladin casts spells spontaneously.

    To cast a spell, a paladin must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a paladinís spell is 10 + the spell level + the paladinís Charisma modifier.

    Like other spellcasters, a paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Paladin. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score. When Table: The Paladin indicates that the paladin gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Charisma score for that spell level The paladin does not have access to any domain spells or granted powers, as a cleric does.

    A paladin may cast any spell on the paladin spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level. A Paladin must meditate once per day for one hour to recover her spell capabilities.

    Through 1st level, a paladin has no caster level. At 2nd level and higher, her caster level is equal to her paladin level minus 1.


    Special Mount (Sp): Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil (see below). This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin).

    At will, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount from the celestial realms in which it resides. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladinís class level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin and remains for 2 hours per paladin level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the paladin may release a particular mount from service.

    Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect.

    Should the paladinís mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The paladin may not summon another mount for three days or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this three days period, the paladin takes a Ė1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.

    Remove Disease (Sp): At 6th level, a paladin can produce a remove disease effect, as the spell, once per day. She can use this ability one additional time per day for every three levels after 6th (twice per week at 9th, three times at 12th, and so forth).

    Voice of Conviction

    At 8th level the Paladin infuses his voice with his conviction, he adds 1/2 his Paladin level to Diplomacy and Intimidate skill checks when acting in line with his beliefs.


    Recitation of the Righteous

    At 16th level the Paladin gains the ability to infuse a vocalization of his beliefs with divine power. The Paladin must be able to speak and his targets must be able to hear and understand him. As a Full Round Action everyone within 50' of the Paladin is struck with a variety of effects depending on their alignment. The duration of the effects of the Recitiation of the Righteous is equal to the Paladins Cha Modifier in rounds. A Will save DC equal to 10+1/2 Paladin's Level + Cha Modifier to reduce the duration to 1 round. Recitation of the Righteous is a Mind Affecting Special Ability and does not affect creatures with an intelligence less than 3. Recitation of the Righteous can be used once per day and once more for each level after 16th(2/day at 17th, 3/day at 18th, 4/day at 19th, and 5/day at 20th level).

    Targets Alignment:
    Lawful Good: Dispel Evil/Chaos
    Neutral Good: Protection from Evil/Chaos
    Chaotic Good: Protection from Evil/Chaos
    Lawful Nuetral: Unaffected
    True Nuetral: Shaken
    Chaotic Nuetral: Shaken
    Lawful Evil: Stunned
    Nuetral Evil: Stunned, Prone
    Chaotic Evil: Stunned, Prone



    Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever strays from a lawfullyl good alignment. Additionally, a paladinís code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

    Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

    Ex-Paladins
    A paladin who ceases to be lawful good or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladinís mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

    Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.

    THE PALADINíS MOUNT

    The paladinís mount is superior to a normal mount of its kind and has special powers, as described below. The standard mount for a Medium paladin is a celestial heavy warhorse, and the standard mount for a Small paladin is a celestial warpony. Another kind of mount, such as a celestial riding dog (for a halfling paladin) or a celestial Large shark (for a paladin in an aquatic campaign) may be allowed as well. A paladinís mount is a Magical Beast.

    {table]Paladin Level|Bonus HD|Natural Armor Adj.|Str, Dx, Con Adj.|Int|Special

    5thĖ7th|+3|+4|+2|7|Empathic link, improved evasion, share spells, share saving throws

    8thĖ10th|+6|+6|+3|8|Improved speed

    11thĖ14th|+9|+8|+4|9|Command creatures of its kind, Flight

    15thĖ20th|+12|+10|+6|10|Spell resistance

    [/table]

    Paladinís Mount Basics: Use the base statistics for a creature of the mountís kind, but make changes to take into account the attributes and characteristics summarized on the table and described below.

    Bonus HD: Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Extra Hit Dice improve the mountís base attack and base save bonuses. A special mountís base attack bonus is equal to that of a cleric of a level equal to the mountís HD. A mount has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animalís HD). The mount gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monsterís Hit Dice.

    Natural Armor Adj.: The number on the table is an improvement to the mountís existing natural armor bonus.

    Str, Dex, Con Adj.: Add this figure to the mountís Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores.

    Int: The mountís Intelligence score.

    Empathic Link (Su): The paladin has an empathic link with her mount out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The paladin cannot see through the mountís eyes, but they can communicate empathically. Note that even intelligent mounts see the world differently from humans, so misunderstandings are always possible.

    Because of this empathic link, the paladin has the same connection to an item or place that her mount does, just as with a master and his familiar (see Familiars).

    Improved Evasion (Ex): When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, a mount takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage if the saving throw fails.

    Share Spells: At the paladinís option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts on herself also affect her mount. The mount must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the mount if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the mount again even if it returns to the paladin before the duration expires. Additionally, the paladin may cast a spell with a target of ďYouĒ on her mount (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A paladin and her mount can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the mountís type (magical beast).

    Share Saving Throws: For each of its saving throws, the mount uses its own base save bonus or the paladinís, whichever is higher. The mount applies its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesnít share any other bonuses on saves that the master might have.

    Improved Speed (Ex): The mountís speed increases by 10 feet.

    Command (Sp): Once per day per two paladin levels of its master, a mount can use this ability to command other any normal animal of approximately the same kind as itself (for warhorses and warponies, this category includes donkeys, mules, and ponies), as long as the target creature has fewer Hit Dice than the mount. This ability functions like the command spell, but the mount must make a DC 21 Concentration check to succeed if itís being ridden at the time. If the check fails, the ability does not work that time, but it still counts against the mountís daily uses. Each target may attempt a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 paladinís level + paladinís Cha modifier) to negate the effect.

    Spell Resistance (Ex): A mountís spell resistance increases by 5.

    Flight: The Mount gains a 120' fly speed wih good maneuverability.

    ACF's
    Spoiler
    Show

    Holy Knight

    Level: 1st
    Loses: Spellcasting, Battle Blessing, and Divine Understanding
    Gains: Special Mount at 1st Level. Counts as Paladin Level +4 for Secial Mount Abilities. At 2nd level, gain Mounted Combat. At 6th, Gain Rideby Attack. At 9th and 12th level gain a Fighter Bonus Feat.


    The paladin of freedom has all the standard paladin class features, except as noted below.

    Class Skills
    Replace Diplomacy with Bluff on the class skill list.

    Aura of Resolve (Su)
    Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin of freedom is immune to compulsion effects. Each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against compulsion effects. This ability otherwise functions identically to the paladin's aura of courage class feature.

    Spellcasting
    Remove the following spells from the paladin's spell list: death ward, discern lies, dispel chaos, magic circle against chaos, protection from chaos.

    Add the following spells to the paladin's spell list: 1stóprotection from law; 3rdómagic circle against law; 4thódispel law, freedom of movement.

    Recitation of the Righteous

    Targets Alignment:
    Chaotic Good: Dispel Evil/Law
    Neutral Good: Protection from Evil/Law
    Lawful Good: Protection from Evil/Law
    Chaotic Nuetral: Unaffected
    True Nuetral: Shaken
    Lawful Nuetral: Shaken
    Chaotic Evil: Stunned
    Nuetral Evil: Stunned, Prone
    Lawful Evil: Stunned, Prone

    Code of Conduct
    A paladin of freedom must be of chaotic good alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin of freedom's code requires that he respect individual liberty, help those in need (provided they do not use the help for lawful or evil ends), and punish those who threaten or curtail personal liberty.

    Associates
    While he may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin of freedom will never knowingly associate with evil characters (except on some sort of undercover mission), nor will he continue an association with someone who consistently offends his moral code. A paladin of freedom may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are chaotic good.

    Paladin of Slaughter Class Features
    The paladin of slaughter has all the standard paladin class features, except as noted below.

    Class Skills
    Replace Diplomacy with Intimidate on the class skill list.

    Aura of Evil (Ex)
    The power of a paladin of slaughter's aura of evil (see the detect evil spell) is equal to her paladin of slaughter level, just as with the aura of a cleric of an evil deity.

    Detect Good (Sp)
    At will, a paladin of slaughter can use detect good, as the spell.

    Smite Good (Su)
    Once per encounter, a paladin of slaughter may attempt to smite good with one normal melee attack. This ability is otherwise identical to the standard paladin's ability to smite evil, including increased uses as the paladin of slaughter gains class levels.

    Deadly Touch (Su)
    Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin of slaughter can cause wounds with a successful touch attack. Each day she can deal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level x her Charisma bonus. An opponent subjected to this attack can make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 paladin level + paladin's Cha modifier) to halve the damage dealt.

    Alternatively, a paladin of slaughter can use any or all of this power to cure damage to undead creatures, just as an inflict wounds spell does. This power otherwise functions identically to the paladin's lay on hands ability.

    Debilitating Aura (Su)
    Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin of slaughter radiates a malign aura that causes enemies within 10 feet of her to take a -1 penalty to Armor Class. This ability otherwise functions identically to the paladin's aura of courage class feature.

    Rebuke Undead (Su)
    A paladin of slaughter rebukes undead rather than turning undead.

    Cause Disease (Sp)
    A paladin of slaughter can inflict disease with her touch (as the contagion spell) a number of times per week that a standard paladin of her level would normally be able to remove disease.

    Spellcasting
    Replace the standard paladin's spell list with the following spell list: 1stóbane, cause fear, corrupt weapon, create water, curse water, detect poison, detect undead, divine favor, endure elements, inflict light wounds, magic weapon, protection from good, protection from law, read magic, resistance, virtue; 2ndóbull's strength, cure light wounds, darkness, delay poison, eagle's splendor, inflict moderate wounds, owl's wisdom, resist energy, undetectable alignment; 3rdóblindness/deafness, cure moderate wounds, deeper darkness, dispel magic, greater magic weapon, heal mount, prayer, inflict serious wounds, magic circle against good/law; 4thóbreak enchantment, cure serious wounds, dispel good, dispel law, inflict critical wounds, poison, unholy sword.

    Recitation of the Righteous

    Targets Alignment:
    Chaotic Evil: Dispel Good/Law
    Neutral Evil: Protection from Good/Law
    Lawful Evil: Protection from Good/Law
    Chaotic Nuetral: Unaffected
    True Nuetral: Shaken
    Lawful Nuetral: Shaken
    Chaotic Good: Stunned
    Nuetral Good: Stunned, Prone
    Lawful Good: Stunned, Prone

    Code of Conduct
    A paladin of slaughter must be of chaotic evil alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits a good act. Additionally, a paladin of slaughter's code requires that she disrespect all authority figures who have not proven their physical superiority to her, refuse help to those in need, and sow destruction and death at all opportunities.

    Associates
    While she may adventure with characters of any evil or neutral alignment, a paladin of slaughter will never knowingly associate with good characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin of tyranny may accept only henchmen, followers, and cohorts who are chaotic evil.

    Paladin of Tyranny Class Features
    The paladin of tyranny has all the standard paladin class features, except as noted below.

    Aura of Evil (Ex)
    The power of a paladin of tyranny's aura of evil (see the detect evil spell) is equal to his paladin of tyranny level, just as with the aura of a cleric of an evil deity.

    Detect Good (Sp)
    At will, a paladin of tyranny can use detect good, as the spell.

    Smite Good (Su)
    Once per encounter, a paladin of tyranny may attempt to smite good with one normal melee attack. This ability is otherwise identical to the standard paladin's ability to smite evil, including increased daily as the paladin of tyranny gains class levels.

    Deadly Touch (Su)
    Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin of tyranny can cause wounds with a successful touch attack. Each day she can deal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level x her Charisma bonus. An opponent subjected to this attack can make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 paladin level + paladin's Cha modifier) to halve the damage dealt.

    Alternatively, a paladin of tyranny can use any or all of this power to cure damage to undead creatures, just as an inflict wounds spell does. This power otherwise functions identically to the paladin's lay on hands ability.

    Aura of Despair (Su)
    Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin of tyranny radiates a malign aura that causes enemies within 10 feet of him to take a -2 penalty on all saving throws. This ability otherwise functions identically to the paladin's aura of courage class feature.

    Rebuke Undead (Su)
    A paladin of tyranny rebukes undead rather than turning undead.

    Cause Disease (Sp)
    A paladin of tyranny can inflict disease with his touch (as the contagion spell) a number of times per week that a standard paladin of her level would normally be able to remove disease.

    Spellcasting
    Replace the paladin's spell list with the following spell list: 1stóbane, corrupt weapon, create water, curse water, detect poison, detect undead, divine favor, doom, endure elements, inflict light wounds, magic weapon, protection from chaos, protection from good, read magic, resistance, virtue; 2ndóbull's strength, cure light wounds, darkness, delay poison, eagle's splendor, hold person, inflict moderate wounds, owl's wisdom, resist energy, undetectable alignment; 3rdóbestow curse, cure moderate wounds, deeper darkness, discern lies, dispel magic, greater magic weapon, heal mount, prayer, inflict serious wounds, magic circle against chaos/good; 4thóbreak enchantment, cure serious wounds, dispel chaos, dispel good, dominate person, inflict critical wounds, unholy sword.

    Recitation of the Righteous

    Targets Alignment:
    Lawful Evil: Dispel Good/Chaos
    Neutral Evil: Protection from Good/Chaos
    Chaotic Evil: Protection from Good/Chaos
    Lawful Nuetral: Unaffected
    True Nuetral: Shaken
    Chaotic Nuetral: Shaken
    Lawful Good: Stunned
    Nuetral Good: Stunned, Prone
    Chaotic Good: Stunned, Prone

    Code of conduct
    A paladin of tyranny must be of lawful evil alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits a good act. Additionally, a paladin of tyranny's code requires that he respect authority figures as long as they have the strength to rule over the weak, act with discipline (not engaging in random slaughter, keeping firm control over those beneath his station, and so forth), help only those who help him maintain or improve his status, and punish those who challenge authority (unless, of course, such challengers prove more worthy to hold that authority).

    Associates
    While he may adventure with characters of any evil or neutral alignment, a paladin of tyranny will never knowingly associate with good characters unless it serves his needs, nor will he continue an association with someone who consistently offends his moral code. A paladin of tyranny may accept henchmen and followers of any alignment, but may only accept cohorts who are lawful evil.

    Last edited by Zman; 2013-12-24 at 11:39 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Changelog:

    12-25-12
    Added Divine Understanding for limited access o the Cleric's spell list.
    Remove Disease per day instead of per week.
    Casting is now based off of Charisma.

    12-27-12
    Boosted Smite Evil, have no idea why I forgot to earlier.

    12-28-12
    Upgraded Paladins Mount, useful and less of a liability.

    12-29-12
    Added Battle Blessing
    Added Voice of Conviction
    Added Recitation of the Righteous

    1-26-13
    Added Knght ACF

    1-27-13
    Paladin is now a Spontaneous Spellcaster


    2-2-13
    Added Paladin of Freedom, Slaugher, and Tryany to the list of ACF's.
    Last edited by Zman; 2013-02-02 at 12:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    The general direction is good, but you don't aim high enough.

    1. Search the web for "Rebalanced Compendium.pdf" + download.
    2. Apply your suggested good Will saves to the proposed class in there.

    That's all you need to fix the Paladin to be a decent 3.5e class.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    The general direction is good, but you don't aim high enough.

    1. Search the web for "Rebalanced Compendium.pdf" + download.
    2. Apply your suggested good Will saves to the proposed class in there.

    That's all you need to fix the Paladin to be a decent 3.5e class.
    The Paladin is a solid Melee chassis, I made it's Spellcasting passable and made the Paladin more resilient, I would think it would be enough to bump it to Tier 4. I'm trying to keep the core architecture of the classes similar while correcting oversight.

    I'll look at the suggested class.

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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zman View Post
    The Paladin is a solid Melee chassis, I made it's Spellcasting passable and made the Paladin more resilient, I would think it would be enough to bump it to Tier 4. I'm trying to keep the core architecture of the classes similar while correcting oversight.

    I'll look at the suggested class.
    What I suggested is basically quite similar to your's. It just provides decent Lay-On-Hands based features to replace the useless Cure Disease feature and better options with (plus alternatives to) Special Mount.

    See it before you say no.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zman View Post
    The Paladin is a solid Melee chassis, I made it's Spellcasting passable and made the Paladin more resilient, I would think it would be enough to bump it to Tier 4. I'm trying to keep the core architecture of the classes similar while correcting oversight.

    I'll look at the suggested class.
    actually, you missed the 2 most obvious problems of paladin:

    MAD, and Feat Starvation. the PDF Nonsi refferenced is of an old paladin fix (As in before Dungeonscape was printed), that misses alot of the problems of paladin, and in fact just blatantly ruins Smite Evil.

    besides that, i already did the T3 paladin homebrew
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-12-24 at 01:49 PM.
    My Homebrew: found here.
    When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes

    PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.

    Drow avatar @ myself

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    actually, you missed the 2 most obvious problems of paladin:

    MAD, and Feat Starvation. the PDF Nonsi refferenced is of an old paladin fix (As in before Dungeonscape was printed), that misses alot of the problems of paladin, and in fact just blatantly ruins Smite Evil.

    besides that, i already did the T3 paladin homebrew
    1. He's aiming for T-4.
    2. I wasn't aware of your version (yes, it does appear to be better).
    3. I went for a quick-fix. I'm not a big enough fan of the Paladin to attempt to assemble one myself (and in my unified house rules codex I don't need one).

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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    I note you left remove disease at the stupid 1/week... why not make it progress in uses/day?
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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    I note you left remove disease at the stupid 1/week... why not make it progress in uses/day?
    It's even more painful when accompanied by so many dead levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    I note you left remove disease at the stupid 1/week... why not make it progress in uses/day?
    Mainly because I didn't think it comes into play that much. I can make that change.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    It's even more painful when accompanied by so many dead levels.
    I hoped the increase in casting helped to deuce that pain.

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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Id bummp the paladins spells per day up by 2.

    if you are going to increase their caster level by as much as you did, you should really increased their actual spell casting as well, not to mention 'start' their spell casting at 2nd level. Heck giving them an adepts spell casting progression would work wonders

    something like 5 1st 5 2nd 4 3rd 3 4th (2 5th) at 20th would be great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    Id bummp the paladins spells per day up by 2.

    if you are going to increase their caster level by as much as you did, you should really increased their actual spell casting as well, not to mention 'start' their spell casting at 2nd level. Heck giving them an adepts spell casting progression would work wonders

    something like 5 1st 5 2nd 4 3rd 3 4th (2 5th) at 20th would be great.
    Their Spellcasting does start at 2nd level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    Id bummp the paladins spells per day up by 2.

    if you are going to increase their caster level by as much as you did, you should really increased their actual spell casting as well, not to mention 'start' their spell casting at 2nd level. Heck giving them an adepts spell casting progression would work wonders

    something like 5 1st 5 2nd 4 3rd 3 4th (2 5th) at 20th would be great.
    Advancing a Paladin's spell level cap does not actually improve them, especially because the philosophy that later influenced the design of paladin spells was that a Spell of a given level for paladin/blackguard is equivalent to a spell of upto twice the spell's level on a given cleric. Even going by standard design, Glory of the Martyr is a 7-8th level spell, but paladin gets it at 4th level

    if you want to go by that, then you should rebuild the paladin spell list with much more powerful spells, bringing their power up enough to be significant.
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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    besides that, i already did the T3 paladin homebrew
    Erm...ixnay the agging-bray. The Tier system itself is always under conflict, so to claim you've achieved a Tier 3 class can be debated. In fact, even if it weren't under conflict, it can be debated. Then again, it's probably because I see this in bad taste.

    Now, on topic:
    • Smite Evil boosted to per-encounter is a typical buff, so it's good to see you can use it more. That said, 1 point of damage at 1st level is too weak. Boost the base damage, somewhere between the lines of 3~5 plus 1/class level. Some people suggest making damage dynamic (i.e. 1d6/class level), but that might be too much.
    • The Lay on Hands pool is too weak, if you intend to self-heal or heal others. The LoH as presented in Pathfinder is a good start (swift if used for you,, standard if used for others), but you can choose whether to keep damage static (the 3.5 damage pool) or dynamic (as per PF). If static, boost the healing pool as well.
    • The CL boost to spells is fair enough, but before 10th level, you only have about 2 spells (or more if you get bonus spells), which is still too little. As well, the spell list could get a few extra spells (most of the classes do). If you consider adding spells with save DCs, boost the save DCs as well (otherwise, there's no reason why to add them, because the save DC will usually be passed by the enemy).
    • Speaking of spells: reduce MAD, please. Basing bonus spells and save DC off Charisma (or heck, just the save DC of their spells) will do wonders.
    • I'm not a fan of Remove Disease. The spell could easily be placed as an actual Paladin spell, so you could remove the entire ability if you wish. If you're gonna keep it, make it worthwhile. You could easily allow a per-day ability that starts with removing stuff like diseases, then go with poisons, curses and whatnot. The Mercies effect of the PF Paladin is a good start, but that makes the Dragon Shaman's ability weaker (when it should be stronger)
    • Aside from that: why there are no new abilities? If you attempt to make the Paladin a Tier 3-4 class, it should do a lot more than what it already does. For example: aside from the mount and wielding ranged weapons, how does he face flying creatures? Aside from Ghost Touch or Force weaponry, how does he deal with incorporeal creatures, considering that Turn Undead is not enough to even turn the wraiths and shadows?
    • Oh, one minor nitpick: why CL has to be your level -1? For what it's worth, making it full CL is only one level away, so don't force the Paladin to have an arbitrary reduction to CL just for purposes of weakening their spellcasting compared to Clerics. It's important to notice that their spell progression is delayed quite a bit, and they get no higher than 4th level spells, so for all purposes he remains a half-spellcaster.


    One thing I usually say about dead levels is that spellcasting progression is no excuse, unless it's a full spellcasting class (because that is basically their main ability). The way it's set, you can have at least two class features with a clear progression (every three class levels, starting at 7th and 8th levels).
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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    Erm...ixnay the agging-bray. The Tier system itself is always under conflict, so to claim you've achieved a Tier 3 class can be debated. In fact, even if it weren't under conflict, it can be debated. Then again, it's probably because I see this in bad taste.
    1: Your Homebrew paladin doesnt improve flexibility really. You Decrease MAD (Inherently Up 1 Tier with Paladin), and then reverse that and lock them into Tanking, which is T5. Besides that, most of the Homebrew on the linked paladin was stuff that already qualifies as putting paladin upto T3

    2: From all these threads of his, Z-Man doesnt appear to even acknowledge that hes doing nothing significant at all.
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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post

    2: From all these threads of his, Z-Man doesnt appear to even acknowledge that hes doing nothing significant at all.
    Thank you for the complement...unless you didn't intend to use the double negative. In that case, thank you for insulting me.

    I am focusing on making small changes to the base classes in an attempt to shift them into a better balance. The goal is start small and leave as much of the original architecture of th class in tact. You fail to realize this. I'm only looking for a 1 Tier shft for the Paladin, with better improved Spellcasting, and minor access to the Cleric spell list I though I had done that. But, I've taken some of th suggested changes and reduced MAD which should ensure that it is a Tier 4 class.


    Now, I've looked at some of your Homebrew and flaty don't like it. There are a few redeeming qualities, but overall it lacks style and is built around power and ability bloat. I've also seen many of your Posts in the Tier Compendium thread and frankly hold little value in what you say. Please offer constructive criticism in a respectful manner or refrain from posting in my threads. Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zman View Post
    I am focusing on making small changes to the base classes in an attempt to shift them into a better balance. The goal is start small and leave as much of the original architecture of th class in tact. You fail to realize this. I'm only looking for a 1 Tier shft for the Paladin, with better improved Spellcasting, and minor access to the Cleric spell list I though I had done that. But, I've taken some of th suggested changes and reduced MAD which should ensure that it is a Tier 4 class.


    Now, I've looked at some of your Homebrew and flaty don't like it. There are a few redeeming qualities, but overall it lacks style and is built around power and ability bloat. I've also seen many of your Posts in the Tier Compendium thread and frankly hold little value in what you say. Please offer constructive criticism in a respectful manner or refrain from posting in my threads. Thank you.
    People have pointed out time and again in your threads that what you do doesnt really influence the class balance, except for so far a complete elimination of 9th level spells from the wizard (that does not actually remove them from their place at T1). Broad Strokes dont fix anything.

    You pretty much just nudge the power of paladin without fixing their problems, problems that actually are what keep it T5. Want to make a T4 paladin? Give inherent Dynamic Priest or Serenity and they are Instantly T4.
    I note that you actually did that, and so you now have a T4 paladin.

    Divine Understanding would have no value, everything worth lifting that Clerics get statically you either get as a spell already, except for lesser planar Ally and other summons, none of which even fit the Paladin class.


    Bloat? Im conservative compared to most homebrew because i try Hard to make everything both Look neat, and be consise. Most paladin Homebrews of any merit are twice as long, half as clean, and have 2 new abilities each level. I have 16.5 total, the upper limit of printed 3.5 classes who actually had class features (of whom typically can cast alot more then paladin). The most broken spells from levels 1-4 are already available in 3.5 to paladin (half of which are paladin spells), except half of them are an extreme tax that limits the paladin's upper potential, and for what? Celerity.


    The Teir System is broken, JaronK is biased and wont admit it (Read his reasoning that Rogue isnt T3, It bleeds Factotum is T2.). If you have any experience, you would note that people will argue over anything despite the points being made. I have to point out that RAW, because "Spellcasting Class" is not defined within the rules as it should be, Mystic Theurge can take Practiced Spellcaster. and people still argue it
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-12-25 at 11:07 PM.
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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    while I never agree with toapat and her/his crusade to insult.

    I have to say that what you've done with the paladin does not push it up a teir, just being able to use smite more often and increasing caster level just doens;t cut it.

    giving them greater spell casting ( i.e more spells per day and higher level spells) as well as giving them some abilities glaned from the pathfinder paladin. or any of the following PrCs: Complete Divine Divine Crusader, Holy Liberator, Pious Templar, War Priest
    Exalted Deeds Annointed Knight, Fist of Raziel

    Yes i know most of these are the paladin class in a 5/10 level PrC only better but just handing out some aids to help you achieve what I feel it takes to get a 'teir' 3/4 paladin.

    also giving them battle blessing as a class feature around 7-9th level ( that way when they actually get 2nd level spells they can cast them as switf/standard actions) actually encourages one to cast spells

    that is one thing ive never done with any paladin ive ever played really, is cast non healing spells. for 2 reasons
    1) the paladins caster level normally is just to low to be any good
    2) to buff myself for combat i have to stand there and do that for a round while my teamamte get pummeled

    Ive enver played a paladin with battle blesing allowed ( yes some Dms thinks that is OPed)

    Having battle blesing as a class feature is not good if yous till have crap for spells but liek i siad earlier in my post if youd increase their spells per day to having 5-1st 5-2nd 4-3rd 3-4th at 20th would be great. and WOudl actually entice me ( and maybe tohers ) to cast spells in combat or even outside of combat in a more utilarian usage.

    I like the design goal and process behind your paladin fix, just for me it needs a little oomph, what you have so far is good, do not get me wrong, but it is still lacking something to get it to the 'tier' you want it to be in my eyes.

    but im not JaronK so i am by far no expert on the 'tier' system.

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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    while I never agree with toapat and her/his crusade to insult.
    theres a difference between Impossible to convey the message (IE, me to you), and Zman vs World, which is simply hoisting himself with his own petard, at least, for the first few days. Checking back he seems to be a little more willing to fix what he is doing here


    Basically, paladin is a 9 level class, and of those 9 levels, 3 of them are not even consecutive.

    Problems of Paladin:
    Is extremely frontloaded, problematically nearly all of it has to be where it is anyway.
    Feat Starvation: Mount? Liability without feats and multiclassing, Combat? Liability without Feats, Spellcasting? Liablity without feats and PHB2, Complete champion, and PGtF or Champions of Valor.
    MAD: Str, Con, Wis, and Cha, all needed. Dex Semi-needed, Int dump if you dont take SotAO.
    Smite Evil: Weak, Only usable as standard action.
    Turn Undead: Unusable, unless investment in DMM or devotion, which eat half your feats.
    loaded class features: Remove Disease? Only good if your DM loves Mummies. Divine Health? same deal. Aura of Courage? Almost worth being a free piece of equipment, but Paladin of Freedom's Mindblank is better. Mount? A massive liability without Complete Adventurer
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-12-25 at 11:08 PM.
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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Toapat, I have been listening to the suggestions of others and making changes accordingly.

    For instance reducing MAD, something which you have said inherently moves the Paladin up a Tier. Now, my goal was to keep much of the Core architecture in place and move the class up a Tier. By your own admission I have accomplished that goal without completely remaking the class. It now has better Spellcasting, is less MAD, has additional versatility and additional resilience.

    Using your own reasoning the Paladin is now Tier 4 and has accomplished my goals and yet you are still arrogant, rude, and insulting. As I said before keep your comments constructive or stop posting them.

    Just in case you missed it, this is from the original post, "Irregardless the goal is to bring the Paladin up to a High Tier 4 class and slightly relax the strict code of conduct for a Paladin."

    And his thread is not the place to bash JaronK and the Tier system.
    Last edited by Zman; 2012-12-25 at 11:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zman View Post
    Toapat, I have been listening to the suggestions of others and making changes accordingly.

    For instance reducing MAD, something which you have said inherently moves the Paparin up a Tier. Now, my goal was to keep much of the Core architecture in place and move the classic a Tier. By your own admission I have accomplished that goal without completely remaking the class. It now has better, is less MAD, has additional versatility and additional resilience.

    Using your own reasoning the Paladin is now Tier 4 and has accomplished my goals and yet you are still arrogant, rude, and insulting. As I said before keep your comments constructive or stop posting them.

    Just in case you missed it, this is from the original post, "Irregardless the goal is to bring the Paladin up to a High Tier 4 class and slightly relax the strict code of conduct for a Paladin."

    And his thread is not the place to bash JaronK and the Tier system.
    I acknowledged that in a pair of edits. Battleblessing at lvl 4 and a couple of bonus feats (or go loot Divine Spirit), and you are done. Paladins have the strongest spell list of any Non-Psionic gish.

    Im done with the argument about JaronK.
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-12-25 at 11:22 PM.
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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Paladins mount has received a hefty power boost, hopefully making it less of a liability and worthwhile. Hoping the ability to fly, becoming Celestial, a Magical Beast, and it's attribute and HD bonus make it a solid contribution to the class.

    Thoughts?

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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Flight comes too late. I'd say put it at 11th-14th or even 8th-10th. I'd say a better 15th-20th feature would be applying the Paladin's Divine Grace to its mount too. At 15th level, Casters have already had much less limited flight for 9-10 levels.

    I'd also expand the list of Available mounts a bit. A knight riding a dragon is a pretty common thing, so it should be possible to have one without needing a feat from Draconomicon. Hippogriffs, Griffins, and Pegasi are also used pretty often as mounts. Maybe do it like Druid animal companions where at higher levels you can get better mounts for the price of not having quite as good bonuses?

    Also, if anybody tells you they don't want to ride on a Megaraptor or T-rex named Yoshi, they are lying liars who lie.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2012-12-28 at 11:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Flight is now gained at lvl 11.

    I'm going to hold off on the optional mounts for now, but do plan on incorporating them eventually.

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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Typically i just give paladins, if i even leave the Mount (which is pretty bad without heavy dedication to it), automatic gryphons, because paladins ride Gryphons or dragons.

    No bonus feats pretty much says to me take divine spirit
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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Your Homebrew paladin doesnt improve flexibility really. You Decrease MAD (Inherently Up 1 Tier with Paladin), and then reverse that and lock them into Tanking, which is T5. Besides that, most of the Homebrew on the linked paladin was stuff that already qualifies as putting paladin upto T3.
    I've given some time to ponder about this answer, but it still eludes me. I tried not to mention my homebrew in the slightest, and while I incline towards recommendations I've tried to follow on my own, I've also given the OP suggestions by other people.

    As I mentioned, the change of Smite Evil from daily to encounter is a recommendation most people follow (not just me), unless they think their boost to Smite makes it a worthwhile daily ability (which can be successful, as per PF even though I digress on the semantics, or not), and boost the damage a bit if he intends to keep on the basics of Smite. It should be comparable to other boosts to damage, which include stuff such as the Barbarian's rage, the Ranger's Favored Enemy and the Martial Adept's maneuvers.

    The recommendation on Lay on Hands is two-fold, but the first of the folds is basically taken straight from PF. I left the method of boosting to the OP, if he insists on keeping it static (i.e. not dice-based).

    The recommendations about spells are reasonable. Boosting CL and amount of spells is something not just me, but a good deal of 'brewers who handle Paladin and keep spellcasting tend to do. In fact, most 'brewers advance Paladin spellcasting to 2/3rds, making it meet the Bard in terms of spellcasting potential. I make no mention of that, but that's not necessarily because it's on my 'brew; now, that it's posting my opinion on the matter, sure, but it's not really attempting the OP to fully agree to my proposal. Just, mostly, throwing ideas for the OP to use.

    The bit about Remove Disease, on the other hand, IS a deliberate opinion, and even THEN I suggested ideas that I didn't implement on my own. I suggested working with the Mercies concept of the PF Paladin, or increasing the breadth of abilities you can use by expending daily uses of Remove Disease, so I thought explicitly about how to make it useful.

    Thus, I find the above comment somewhat unfounded. Basically, I feel it like bashing my work OUTSIDE of the thread, which shouldn't be the focus of the thread. I found the hyperlinked comment a bit distasteful because it feels like "I've done better", which is something I feel shouldn't be said to any 'brewer, regardless of how you feel about your own 'brew, or the support it may garner. Hence, the comment I made was pointing that out, which may have been the cause of misunderstanding. If it was misunderstanding, then I expect this explains why I made the comment; hence, the second comment feels even more offensive than the first, which is why I took so much to comment it, particularly since the comment could be made either on the thread, or on the linked Wiki page, which are the proper forums to speak of it. As you can see, speaking about the Tier system can be controversial.
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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    *snip*
    your paladin is good.

    the thing is, what you did with paladin is give enough focus to tanking that the work towards buffing it is counteracted. Judging off of JaronK's reasoning, thats back to T5. Even if Glory of the Martyr is the best spell paladins get, and it outdoes Bastion of Defense/Thicket of Blades.

    One thing you dont want to do is to take away flexibility, no matter how little there was before, from a class.

    also note, im talking specifically about your paladin, not your blackguard, justiciar, or anarch
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-12-29 at 02:14 AM.
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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Anyway, getting back to the point at hand:

    It's all pretty good stuff. Smite is now effective, Divine Understanding is a great idea, and MAD is nicely reduced. This is a highly effective class... but it's still lacking on the high end. I understand that you're trying for simple fixes, and make no mistake-- this is an excellent simple paladin fix. But it could use maybe one or two scaling higher-level abilities to fill in those last 10 levels.

    ...maybe even putting all the Divine Understandings and mount upgrades on the main table would make it a bit more full-looking.

    (On a more specific note, bonus feats-- Fighter or Divine-- every 4th level or so might not go amiss)

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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Thanks Grod, the whole project is a WIP.

    Ok, made a few more additions.

    Battle Blessing
    And two new abilities, Voice of Conviction at 8th and Recitation of the Righteous at 16th.

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    Default Re: Zman's Paladin Fix(3.5)

    Ooh, those are good, although you should probably define "social skills" a bit better. And Recitation needs a duration, and maybe a saving throw.

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