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    Default Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    This fix is part of a larger project aimed at bring all Core classes towards the Tier 2-4 Range. See my Homebrew Signature for additional classes.

    The Rogue is a fragile Tier 4 Character. The aim is to move the Rogue to upper Tier 4/ Low Tier 3. The Rogue will ge a few more options, better defenses, and a larger draw to take the late levels. Any suggestions for Special Abilities are welcome.

    Summary of Changes
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    D8 Hit Dice, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Two Bonus Feats, AC Dodge bonus, better and more numerous Special Ability Options.


    Rogue
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

    1st|+0|+0|+2|+0|Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding, Mobile Combatant

    2nd|+1|+0|+3|+0|Evasion, Bonus Feat

    3rd|+2|+1|+3|+1|Sneak Attack +2d6, Trap Sense +1

    4th|+3|+1|+4|+1|Uncanny Dodge

    5th|+3|+1|+4|+1|Sneak Attack +3d6

    6th|+4|+2|+5|+2|Trap Sense +2, Bonus Feat, Special Ability

    7th|+5|+2|+5|+2|Sneak Attack +4d6

    8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+2|Improved Uncanny Dodge, Special Ability

    9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+3|Sneak Attack +5d6, Trap Sense +3

    10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+3|Special Ability

    11th|+8/+3|+3|+7|+3|Sneak Attack +6d6

    12th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+4|Special Ability, Trap Sense +4

    13th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+4|Sneak Attack +7d6

    14th|+10/+5|+4|+9|+4|Special Ability

    15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+9|+5|Sneak Attack +8d6, Trap Sense +5

    16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|Special Ability

    17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|Sneak Attack +9d6

    18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+6|Special Ability, Trap Sense +6

    19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|Sneak Attack +10d6

    20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+6|Special Ability

    [/table]
    Alignment: Any
    Hit Die: 1d8

    Class Skills:
    Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge(local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (8 + Int modifier) × 4
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons and Martial weapons. Rogues are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

    Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Sneak attack only affects the first attack the Rogue makes per round.

    Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

    With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.

    A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

    Trapfinding: Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

    Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

    A rogue who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.

    Mobile Combatant

    A Rogue is a mobile combatant that relies on his or her ability to avoid blows to survive receiving a +1 Dodge bonus to his or her armor class at 1st level. This dodge bonus increases by one every five levels thereafter(+2 at 6th, +3 at 11th, and +4 at 16th level). A Rogue must be unarmored or wearing light armor to benefit from Mobile Combatant.


    Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

    Bonus Feats

    At 2nd and 6th level the Rogue gains a bonus feat, this feat must come fom the list of Fighter Bonus feats. The Rogue must meet the prerequisites as normal.


    Trap Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

    Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.

    Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

    If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

    Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.

    If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

    [i]Special Abilities:[/] On attaining 6th level, and at every two levels thereafter (8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th), a rogue gains a special ability of her choice from among the following options.

    Acrobatic Charge:. The Rogue may freely charge through difficult terrain and make any number of changes in direction so long as the final 10' is a straight line.

    Ambidexterous: The Rogue reduces penalties for two weapon fighting by 2. An Ambidextrous Two Weapon Fighter's main hand and offhand deal normal Strength damage.

    Crippling Strike (Ex): A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage. Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability.

    Defensive Roll (Ex): The rogue can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Once per day, when she would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the rogue can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can’t use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the rogue’s evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll.

    Duelist: A Duelist gains +1 to Hit and +1 to Damage and +1 Shield bonus to AC when fighting with only one weapon and while their offhand is free. This ability can be chosen multiple times, it's effects stack.

    Dextrous Strike: The Rogue is practiced at stricking efficiently over forcefully. The Rogue uses their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength Modifier for Damage. If the Rogue possessed a penalty to damage due to a low strength score they retain this penalty in addition to adding their Dexterity modifier to damage.

    Dual Strike: Dual Strike allows the Rogue to strike with his offhand weapon in addition to his main hand weapon as part of a charge or standard action.

    Fluid Fighter: A Fluid Fighter can make a 5' step for free after every attack, the only limit to the number of 5' steps per turn is the number of attacks the Rogue has.

    Improved Evasion (Ex): This ability works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

    Improved Skirmish: A Rogue adds 1d6 to their skirmish damage. This ability can be chosen multiple times, it's effects stack. If they do not possess the Skirmish ability, they gain it.

    Improved Sneak Attack: A Rogue adds 1d6 to their sneak attack damage. This ability can be chosen multiple times, it's effects stack. If they do not possess Sneak Attack, they gain it.

    Insightful Strike: The Rogue adds his or her Inteligence modifier to Damage against any foe that is not immune to a Rogues Sneak Attack.

    Lucky: Once per day the Rogue may reroll one attack roll, save, skill check, or ability check. The Rogue must accept the second result.

    Opportunist (Ex): Once per round, the rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the rogue’s attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use the opportunist ability more than once per round.

    Penetrating Strike: The Rogue may sneak attack foes normally immune to their sneak attack for 1/2 damage. This ability also applies to damage from Insightful Strike, Skirmish, and Sudden Strike.

    Precision Strike: The Rogue adds their Dexterety modifier to damage with Ranged Weapons and Replaces Strength to Damage with thrown weapons.

    Skill Mastery: The rogue becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time.

    Slippery Mind (Ex): This ability represents the rogue’s ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw.

    Sniper: A rogue can sneak attack with a ranged attack or thrown weapon up to 60'.

    Trapfinding: As per the Rogue Ability.

    Feat: A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.

    ACF's
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    Combat Specialist

    Level: 1st
    Lose: Sneak Attack
    Gain: Combat Styles at 1st Level, Enchancd Combat Style at 5th, Improved Combat Style at 8th level, and Combat Style Mastery at 15th level as the Ranger Abilities of the same name.


    Scout
    Level: 1st Level
    Replaces: Sneak Attack
    Gains: Fast Movement(As Barbarian)
    Skirmish (Ex): A scout relies on mobility to deal extra damage and improve her defense. She deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks she makes during any round in which she moves at least 10 feet. The extra damage applies only to attacks taken during the scout’s turn. This extra damage increases by 1d6 for every four levels gained above 1st (2d6 at 5th, 3d6 at 9th, 4d6 at 13th, and 5d6 at 17th level).
    The extra damage only applies against living creatures that have a discernible anatomy. Undead, constructs, oozes, plants, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits are not vulnerable to this additional damage. The scout must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. Scouts can apply this extra damage to ranged attacks made while skirmishing, but only if the target is within 30 feet.

    At 3rd level, a scout gains a +1 competence bonus to Armor Class during any round in which she moves at least 10 feet. The bonus applies as soon as the scout has moved 10 feet, and lasts until the start of her next turn. This bonus improves by 1 for every four levels gained above 3rd (+2 at 7th, +3 at 11th, +4 at 15th, and +5 at 19th level).

    A scout loses this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load. If she gains the skirmish ability from another class, the bonuses stack.



    Swashbuckler
    Level: 1st Level
    Replaces: Sneak Attack, Trap Sense, Trapfinding
    Gains: At 1st level, Hit Dice changes to a D10, Gains Good Fortitude Save, Skill Points per level becomes 4+Int. At 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th levels the Swashbuckler gains an additional Special Ability which must be chosen from the same list. Note, the Swashbuckler may choose to take Improved Sneak Attack which instead grants a +1d6 Sneak Attack Ability as normal. This can later be improved.


    Last edited by Zman; 2013-12-22 at 10:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    Changelog:

    12-28-12
    Added Dexteous Strike, Insightful Strike, and Penetrating Strike to the list of Rogue Special Abilities.
    Added Precision Strike

    1-25-13
    Renamed Agile Fighter Mobile Combatant

    1-26-13
    Removed late level sneak attack
    Added Imroved Sneak Attack as a Special Ability
    Added Special Aabilities at 6th and 8th level.
    Added new Special Abilities.
    Added Swashbuckler ACF

    1-27-13
    Clarified Ambidextrous

    1-29-13
    Added Scout ACF
    Let Penetrating Strike affect Skirmish.
    Added Improved Skirmish

    1-31-13
    Returned full sneak attack, but limited it to the first attack per round.
    Removed Tumble requirement for Mobile Combatant, now scales with level.

    2-6-13
    Nerfed Duelist, stacking could have been problematic.

    12-22-13
    Added Light/Unarmored Requirement for Mobile Combatant
    Last edited by Zman; 2013-12-22 at 10:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    Now that's a reason to stay in rogue if you're a TWFer instead of instantly switching off to swashbuckler after picking up Uncanny Dodge.

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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    That's the Point Coffee, giving someone incentive to stay in the class and move it up to the Tier 3/4 boarder.

    Actually reworking Swashbuckler is on the to do list after I finish the Core classes, since Swashbuckler should be more appealing than a 3 level dip and needs a power boost.

    Also, looking to add Insightful Strike as a Rogue Special Ability for Int to Damage. And Possibly a Dex to Damage Special Ability as well. Gives incentive to go Straight Rogue.

    I'm looking for any other suggestions for Special Abilities as well.

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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    Maybe something that would allow a rogue to get all knowledge skills as a class ability? Though that by itself is kinda weak.

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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    1: Change Crippling Strike to Strength Drain. its actually too weak otherwise

    2: You give too much incentive to only use TWF, which is bad. There is a reason why the Knight is T5, and its not because they are incompetent.

    3: I see the point of having Penetrating Strike be later, but in 3.5, you actually have the problem that you have more enemies who are outright immune between lvls 1-10 then 11-20, because of Undead and Constructs more typically being lower level enemies then Dragons (who do not have inherent Forification), Outsiders (who do not have inherent Forification), and Aberations (who do not have inherent Forification)
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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    IMO, any fix that includes the phrase "a rogue is a fighter" (except with a negation before it) is taking the wrong approach. A rogue is not a fighter; he's a versatile noncombat specialist who also has a few tricks in combat. Don't try to make him competitive with the fighter in combat; make him competitive with (or preferably better at) the wizard in those areas of noncombat where he chooses to specialize.
    A rogue should be a tier 4 or 5 in a combat-only game, but a strong tier 2 in a no-combat game.

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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    1: Change Crippling Strike to Strength Drain. its actually too weak otherwise

    I don't feel the change is necessary.

    2: You give too much incentive to only use TWF, which is bad. There is a reason why the Knight is T5, and its not because they are incompetent.

    The only thing I've added is a single Special Ability which is geared for Two Weapon Rogues and adulation strike which is already a feat option I got should explicitly be mentioned. The additional Fighter Bonus feats can be used to any end. I don't see how I am overly incentivizing Two Weapon Fighting. Please explain this. I'm also looking for suggested Special Abilities which would benefit the Non Two Weapon Fighting Rogue. I'm especially looking for some Ranged options.

    3: I see the point of having Penetrating Strike be later, but in 3.5, you actually have the problem that you have more enemies who are outright immune between lvls 1-10 then 11-20, because of Undead and Constructs more typically being lower level enemies then Dragons (who do not have inherent Forification), Outsiders (who do not have inherent Forification), and Aberations (who do not have inherent Forification)

    Good Point, but his doesn't not remove the ability to take the Penetratng Strike ACF either and was meant to offer another option for Special Abilities and grant the ability to a Rogue without access to ACfs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    IMO, any fix that includes the phrase "a rogue is a fighter" (except with a negation before it) is taking the wrong approach. A rogue is not a fighter; he's a versatile noncombat specialist who also has a few tricks in combat. Don't try to make him competitive with the fighter in combat; make him competitive with (or preferably better at) the wizard in those areas of noncombat where he chooses to specialize.
    A rogue should be a tier 4 or 5 in a combat-only game, but a strong tier 2 in a no-combat game.

    I shouldn't have described him as a "Fighter", one who fights. I've changed it to mobile combatant.

    The Rogue is already effective in many out of combat scenarios and by making the Rogue more competent in Melee only helps to raise him towards the Tier 3/4 border. A Rogue will not be more effective than a Wizard noncombatant, the Rogue can not compete with Spellcasting. Hide cannot beat Invisibility, etc. Tier 2 Noncombatant would effectively be as powerful as a Spellcaster with limited versatility and options and can't readily be accomplished. The Rogue already is effective out of combat, my aim was to give him a moderate boost in combat to make the class a more attractive option.

    I'm open to any suggestions for Noncombatant boosts to the Rogue, especially those that would be Special Abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeIncluded View Post
    Maybe something that would allow a rogue to get all knowledge skills as a class ability? Though that by itself is kinda weak.

    That would be called Cross Class Skills with an 8/level skill advancement and Int as a Primary Stat.


    See Blue text for responses.
    Last edited by Zman; 2012-12-28 at 03:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    1: where as Foritfication is a problem Inverse to your distance from level 1, Ability damage actually does become useless later on. Ability drain, on the other hand, stays good.

    2: of the 4 special abilities you added, 2 of them have no value for archery, and one is arguably minimal

    3: fair enough
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-12-28 at 04:04 PM.
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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    1: where as Foritfication is a problem Inverse to your distance from level 1, Ability damage actually does become useless later on. Ability drain, on the other hand, stays good.

    2: of the 4 special abilities you added, 2 of them have no value for archery, and one is arguably minimal

    3: fair enough

    Why is ability Damage useless? How many creatures or classed characters are immune to it?

    I agree, I need more Special Abilities for other attack forms. Planning a Dex to Damage for Ranged. Any suggestions?

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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zman View Post
    Why is ability Damage useless? How many creatures or classed characters are immune to it?

    I agree, I need more Special Abilities for other attack forms. Planning a Dex to Damage for Ranged. Any suggestions?
    every published creature that is not a magical beast or animal over CR7 is immune to ability damage.

    Urban Hide in plain sight should be on there at least.
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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    every published creature that is not a magical beast or animal over CR7 is immune to ability damage.

    Urban Hide in plain sight should be on there at least.
    Could you please support that.

    To my knowledge the actual number of published monsters over CR7 that are immune to ability Damage is quite a bit lower than "every".

    Also in all listed examples Ability Damage affects the same Creatures Ability Dain does. At least as far as Sneak Attack is concerned.
    By type barring special exclusions.

    Subject to Sneak Attack and Ability Damage
    Aberrations
    Animals
    Dragons
    Fey
    Giant
    Humanoids
    Magical Beasts
    Monstrous Humanoids
    Outsiders
    Vermin

    Immune to Citical Hits or Ability Damage
    Constructs(Critical Hits, Ability Damage, Ability Drain)
    Elementals(Critical Hits)
    Oozes(Critical Hits and no Discernable Anatomy)
    Plants(Critical Hits and no Discernable Anatomy)
    Undead(Critical Hits, Ability Damage, Ability Drain)
    Incorporeal Subtype
    Swarm Subtype
    Last edited by Zman; 2012-12-28 at 05:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zman View Post
    Could you please support that.

    To my knowledge the actual number of published monsters over CR7 that are immune to ability Damage is quite a bit lower than "every".

    Also in all listed examples Ability Damage affects the same Creatures Ability Dain does. At least as far as Sneak Attack is concerned.
    By type barring special exclusions.

    Subject to Sneak Attack and Ability Damage
    Aberrations
    Animals
    Dragons
    Fey
    Giant
    Humanoids
    Magical Beasts
    Monstrous Humanoids
    Outsiders
    Vermin

    Immune to Citical Hits or Ability Damage
    Constructs(Critical Hits, Ability Damage, Ability Drain)
    Elementals(Critical Hits)
    Oozes(Critical Hits and no Discernable Anatomy)
    Plants(Critical Hits and no Discernable Anatomy)
    Undead(Critical Hits, Ability Damage, Ability Drain)
    Incorporeal Subtype
    Swarm Subtype
    there is a difference between people making a mistake in reading (IE: Aberrations being critical immune inherently) and Because the Devs just made it that way. While only 5 types and 2 subtypes are inherently immune to critical hits and ability damage, everything over CR7 that is not specifically a magical beast has immunity to Ability damage. Balanced? no
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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    there is a difference between people making a mistake in reading (IE: Aberrations being critical immune inherently) and Because the Devs just made it that way. While only 5 types and 2 subtypes are inherently immune to critical hits and ability damage, everything over CR7 that is not specifically a magical beast has immunity to Ability damage. Balanced? no
    I honestly have no idea what this is trying to say.

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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zman View Post
    I honestly have no idea what this is trying to say.
    Translation: Five types and two subtypes of creature possess inherent immunity to Ability Damage, but every powerful monster in the MM has been given specific immunity by the writers independently of their abilities.

    He's also conflating immunity to critical hits with immunity to ability damage, since you can't generally sneak attack things that are critical-immune. That's where the five types come in - while only constructs and undead are actually immune to criticals, elementals, oozes, and plants are also immune to sneak attack and thus to ability damage in this case.

    So as long as you ignore dragons, giants, abberations, high-level humanoids, dire animals, magical beasts, all demons and devils (and outsiders in general), fey, and particularly powerful vermin swarms, he is right.
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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zman View Post
    I honestly have no idea what this is trying to say.
    there are certain false assumptions, and others that the authors just wrote into the game. for instance, it is assumed that Aberrations have crit immunity, but they dont.

    where as most creatures of over a CR somewhere between 7-10 you start finding that no creatures have susceptibility to Ability damage at all.

    comparitively, the Tarrasque is a very prominent example of a creature immune to Ability damage and Negative levels, and is susceptible to Ability drain, rendering him a CR 3-5, depending on how you measure him

    If you feel that 2 Str Drain/hit is too powerful, then make it 1/hit or 3/crit

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    Translation: Five types and two subtypes of creature possess inherent immunity to Ability Damage, but every powerful monster in the MM has been given specific immunity by the writers independently of their abilities.
    basically.

    I was ignoring types other then Magical beast/Animal Monsterous/Humanoid mostly because everything else isnt based off of RL standards.
    Last edited by toapat; 2012-12-28 at 06:17 PM.
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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    there are certain false assumptions, and others that the authors just wrote into the game. for instance, it is assumed that Aberrations have crit immunity, but they dont.

    where as most creatures of over a CR somewhere between 7-10 you start finding that no creatures have susceptibility to Ability damage at all.

    comparitively, the Tarrasque is a very prominent example of a creature immune to Ability damage and Negative levels, and is susceptible to Ability drain, rendering him a CR 3-5, depending on how you measure him

    It is true, Aberrations are not immune to Criticals. They probably should.

    I look at a variety of Creatures CR 7-10+ and many are not immune to Ability Damage. I don't understand where this claim of yours comes from. The majority that are are also immune if if the Special Ability were changed to Ability Drain as well due to the Sneak Attack being the limiting factor.

    Interesting example, and if players are allowed to Metagame to a game breaking degree the Tarrasque, then yes, he could be defeated in such a manor. But, in any reasonable game I do not see that happening. And measuring the Tarrasque as CR 3-5 is silly.

    Edit: I'm simply leaving the Ability Damage as it was in the original class. Drain also doesn't feel right fluff wise and it is difficult to justify it purely for mechanical purposes.
    Last edited by Zman; 2012-12-28 at 06:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    I'm apparently just going to go around posting in all of Zman's threads about what I did for my fix, since the same arguments keep popping up all over the place.


    My rogue has a feature that basically gives them the ability to ignore a creature's immunity to critical hits (and therefore everything else associated with or dependent upon them). I think I called it "Studied Enemy" or something, I'll go look it up in a minute.

    Every couple of levels, the rogue gets to pick a new type of enemy for whom the crit-immunity won't apply against the rogue's attacks.
    The fluff for this is that the creatures in question aren't completely immune to extra-nasty hits, but that their physiology is just so different that most classes can't figure out where to hit them. The rogue, by contrast, has studied or researched (or just practiced more) and knows that you can get a crit on an ooze by stabbing it in the gluubok or some other weird part of it's anatomy. I felt that it really played into the brain-over-brawn type of feel I was going for, and gave the rogue something unique that other classes couldn't emulate.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-12-28 at 07:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    A couple criticisms:

    You seem to be leaning very heavily on the TWF-ing rogue, while leaving the archery rogue out in the cold. Perhaps give some more archery-based special abilities? Also, honestly, the swashbuckler ACF isn't too great. Sneak Attack is the reason one would want to take rogue in the first place; you better be getting something really good in return to give it up. I also like having ACFs be smaller and more piecemeal rather than replacing too many things at once; it gives you a chance to get more flavor.

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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    I don't particularly like the execution of Mobile Combatant. I mean, I don't mind what it does, which is a scaling Dodge bonus to AC, but making it dependent on Tumble ranks feels kind of silly-- not to mention more-or-less forcing players to take the skill. Why not make it level-based instead and cut out the middleman?

    Also... I like the new special abilities. I don't like folding sneak attack damage into them-- it's basically forcing players to pick between power and options. They need to keep advancing sneak attack to keep damage competitive, and they want to keep taking abilities to make their character more interesting. That's a poor choice, especially when it would be so simple to continue scaling sneak attack damage on odd levels.

    On a related note, I feel like you could start granting special abilities all the way down at 2nd level (possibly folding stuff like evasion and the horribly-weak Trap Sense into the list). Also, some stronger abilities for higher-level rogues would be nice-- what you've got is very nice, but pretty lacking above level 10 or so.

    Finally, you have Trapfinding in its normal place and listed as a special ability-- I assume the latter case is a mistake.

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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeIncluded View Post
    A couple criticisms:

    You seem to be leaning very heavily on the TWF-ing rogue, while leaving the archery rogue out in the cold. Perhaps give some more archery-based special abilities? Also, honestly, the swashbuckler ACF isn't too great. Sneak Attack is the reason one would want to take rogue in the first place; you better be getting something really good in return to give it up. I also like having ACFs be smaller and more piecemeal rather than replacing too many things at once; it gives you a chance to get more flavor.
    Really? I believe you are mistaken. There are only two Special Abilities that are meant for a TWF. I've also added Duelist for single weapon Fighters. I've added Sniper and Precision Steike for Ranged.

    Ranged Rogue really wasn't a viable option before, but is now. With my Rogue you can make a 60' sneak attack Rogue who has access to composite bows, adds Dex and into to damage, and can Skirmish. Even combined with fluid fighter to boot.

    Seems like I've helped out ranged significantly.

    Those ACFs are meant to replace entire classes I feel aren't necessary. I haven't add any smaller ones as yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    I don't particularly like the execution of Mobile Combatant. I mean, I don't mind what it does, which is a scaling Dodge bonus to AC, but making it dependent on Tumble ranks feels kind of silly-- not to mention more-or-less forcing players to take the skill. Why not make it level-based instead and cut out the middleman?

    I could, but felt toeing it to tumble fit.

    Also... I like the new special abilities. I don't like folding sneak attack damage into them-- it's basically forcing players to pick between power and options. They need to keep advancing sneak attack to keep damage competitive, and they want to keep taking abilities to make their character more interesting. That's a poor choice, especially when it would be so simple to continue scaling sneak attack damage on odd levels.

    Why is giving players that choice bad? Firstly, they don't need just sneak attack to stay competitive, adding Dex to damage, into to damage get mUltiple dice worth of mileage. Plus, this way they have the option of advancing sneak attack higher than ever, or not, or adding skirmish, or always dealing half sneak etc. I highly doubt this Rogues damage won't be competitive. What is your reference point for competitive damage?

    On a related note, I feel like you could start granting special abilities all the way down at 2nd level (possibly folding stuff like evasion and the horribly-weak Trap Sense into the list). Also, some stronger abilities for higher-level rogues would be nice-- what you've got is very nice, but pretty lacking above level 10 or so.

    I'm always open for suggestions, I'm especially looking fr ideas for non combat abilities.

    Finally, you have Trapfinding in its normal place and listed as a special ability-- I assume the latter case is a mistake.
    Trapfinding is listed because the Swashbuckler ACF removes it. This allows the Swashbuckler to reclaim it if they need to.

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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    I could, but felt toeing it to tumble fit.
    What I'm trying to say is that what you've done is effectively the same as a level-based bonus, with the added penalty of saying "you must take this skill."

    Quote Originally Posted by Zman View Post
    Why is giving players that choice bad? Firstly, they don't need just sneak attack to stay competitive, adding Dex to damage, into to damage get mUltiple dice worth of mileage. Plus, this way they have the option of advancing sneak attack higher than ever, or not, or adding skirmish, or always dealing half sneak etc. I highly doubt this Rogues damage won't be competitive. What is your reference point for competitive damage?
    Player choice is good. Being able to chose your class abilities from a list of interesting abilities is, I think, the holy grail of class design. But what you're doing here is forcing players to chose between power (more sneak attack damage!) and those interesting options.

    5d6 sneak attack is an average of 17.5 damage, which is really not that overwhelming. Heck, in my experience running a game from 10-14th level, even 1d6/level was underwhelming in a lot of cases. Sure, sneak attack damage can be cranked up if you can get off a TWF/rapid shot full attack, but that won't often be the case-- especially since you want the class to be mobile.

    If you're worried about full-attack sneak attack damage getting too high with multiple attacks, simply limit it to the first attack each round.

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    Default Re: Zman's Rogue Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    What I'm trying to say is that what you've done is effectively the same as a level-based bonus, with the added penalty of saying "you must take this skill."


    Player choice is good. Being able to chose your class abilities from a list of interesting abilities is, I think, the holy grail of class design. But what you're doing here is forcing players to chose between power (more sneak attack damage!) and those interesting options.

    5d6 sneak attack is an average of 17.5 damage, which is really not that overwhelming. Heck, in my experience running a game from 10-14th level, even 1d6/level was underwhelming in a lot of cases. Sure, sneak attack damage can be cranked up if you can get off a TWF/rapid shot full attack, but that won't often be the case-- especially since you want the class to be mobile.

    If you're worried about full-attack sneak attack damage getting too high with multiple attacks, simply limit it to the first attack each round.
    I see your point with requiring the Tumble skill, I thought it make sense but can just as easily remove it.

    As to sneak attack, I did want to limit the ridiculousness that comes with full attack sneak attacks, especially the ones that can hit hundreds of damage per turn. I think I will put the full sneak attack progression back in and keep the ability for Special Ability to enhance it further, but limit it to the first attack per round.

    Thank you for the feedback. That way with the other damage enhancing Secial abikities the Rogue will be more well rounded combatant and less of a one trick pony.

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