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Thread: The ExFighter

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default The ExFighter

    This is a third thread (see AMF fighter and Improved Mage Killer) on optimizing a fighter (= sharp stick poker) using all legal tricks. The main difference from earlier threads is carefully using WBL to capture a Protean form. This version is much tougher---I believe it's proofed against all nonepic Wizards, even those using Dragon Magazine and setting specific rules.

    The new trick in this build is using mind switch on a Hagunemnon/Protean from the Epic monsters. This is difficult to do well in a generic fashion, but it turns to be just barely possible.
    Spoiler
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    Magic Jar won't do, because Alter Form is not an automatic ability.
    Hence, Mind Switch is required. This is easy to achieve in an evil
    way (Gate, Dominate, Energy Drain, Mind Switch). Achieving this in a
    nonevil nonepic non-setting specific manner is substantially trickier.

    (1) Hire a psionicist to creata a Custom Psicrown of Mind Switch and Astral Seed.
    (2) Hire a cleric to cast Imbue with spell ability(Cure Light Wounds) on a hired wizard with caster level 20.
    I'll assume the wizard has access to the following permanent magic items:
    Orange Ioun stone
    Ring of Arcane Might
    Robe of Arcane Might[Transformation]
    (3) Hire a psionicist to caster Psychic Reformation on the hired wizard giving feats:
    Arcane thesis (Mental Pinnacle)
    Heighten Spell
    Earth Sense
    Earth Spell
    Snowcasting
    Frozen Magic
    Incarnum Spellshaping
    (4) At T-1 week, have the hired wizard cast PAO(Symbiote) on you.
    (5) At T-3 days, hire a Psionicist to Psychic reformation (assume supernatural ability) on you.
    (6) At T-12 hours, Wizard drinks Domain Draught (Good).
    (7) At T-12 hours, Wizard casts Create Magic Tatoo on self for +1 caster level.
    (8) At T-7 hours, hired Druid drops a Frostfell spell on the primary location.
    (9) At T-5 hours, a Wizard casts Channel the Mishtai, Greater for +1 caster level.
    (10) At T-5 minutes, Wizard casts Cure Light Wounds on Self, triggering Karma Bead for +4 caster level
    (11) At T-2 rounds, a hired bard casts Harmonic Chorus.
    (12) At T-2 rounds, Wizard casts Mark of the Enlightened Soul.
    (13) At T-0 rounds, Wizard casts Spell Enhancer with Swift action.
    (14) At T-0 rounds, hired secondary wizard casts Mystic Surge targeting the Wizard.
    (15) At T-0 rounds, Wizard gathers snow in hand (Move action)
    (16) At T-0 rounds, Wizard casts Heightened to L9 Mental Pinnacle with heroes tears while standing on Frostfell ground targeting the Symbiote at caster level 45.
    (17) PAO wears off, don Psicrown.
    (18) At T+1 rounds, Wizard casts Gate, conjuring a Protean, and demanding a short term service.
    (19) At T+1 rounds, UPD 20(Use dorje) Psicrown and execute a manifester level 45 Mind Switch.
    (20) At T+2 rounds, Swap Psicrown to Protean (move action)
    (21) At T+2 rounds, UPD 20(Use dorje) Psicrown and execute a manifester level 15 Astral Seed.
    (22) At T+3 rounds, Return to own body (ending Mind switch)
    (23) At T+22 rounds, Protean returns home.
    (24) Hire a Psionicist to return wizards feats to normal via Psychic Reformation.
    (25) Hire a Psionicist to reset your Assume Supernatural Ability feat.
    (26) Die.
    (27) Rebuild and inhabit a Protean body.
    (28) Hire a Psionicist to Psychic Chirurgery regain lost level.

    The difficult element here is achieving manifester level >=44 preEpic which I
    haven't previously seen done. The specific bonuses we use are drawn
    from the caster level boost list then converted into manifester level via Mental Pinnacle.

    Domain draught, Good: +1 good spells
    Heroes tears: +2 good spells
    Orange Ioun Stone: +1
    Ring of arcane Might: +1 (in effect)
    Robe of arcane Might[Transmutation]: +1 transmutation spells [Competence]
    Karma Bead from the strand of prayer Beads: +4 after casting a divine spell
    Channel the Mishtai, Greater: +1 [insight]
    Create Magic Tatoo: +1
    Frostfell: +1 cold spells
    Harmonic Chorus: +2 [morale]
    Mystic Surge: +1
    Spell enhancer: +2
    Arcane thesis: +2
    Earth Spell: +3 heightened, while standing on earth
    Frozen Magic: +2 cold spells.

    The spell is good via Mark of the Enlightened Soul and Cold via Snowcasting.

    It is significantly easier to achieve caster level 45 if you go evil (Consumptive Field), go setting specific (Circle Magic, Node Magic), and/or use prestige classes (Archmage, Red Wizard). Even the hard approach
    appears possible using WBL at ECL 10.


    The reason a Protean interests is:
    Alter Shape (Ex): A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action...
    Spoiler
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    The listed effects of this are:
    (1) Gain 4 chosen Extraordinary abilities (incorporeal counts as 1).
    (2) Size between flea and 200' in the long dimension.
    (3) At most 5 attacks in a full-round action.

    The 4 default extraordinary abilities we'll choose are:
    (1) Keeper(FF) Immunities
    Mind-affecting
    Poison
    Sleep(Spell)
    Paralysis
    Stunning
    Disease
    Death Effects
    Necromantic
    Fort except objects
    Critical Hits
    Sneak Attacks
    Subdual damage
    Ability Damage
    Ability Drain
    Energy Drain
    Death from Massive Damage
    (2) MMIII Prismatic Golem Immunity to Magic
    SR infinity + eat prismatic effects
    (3) Epic Colossus Antimagic Field
    100' radius
    (4) MMI Tarrasque Regeneration

    (1) and (4) provide immunity to damage and knocks out many other
    forms of attack.


    Several options were discarded because they are too strong or likely a typo.
    Spoiler
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    (1) Zodar(FF) Invulnerability
    Impervious to all attacks except Bludgeoning Weapons
    (2) Ocean Giant(MMII) Blunt Weapon Immunity
    Immune to Bludgeon
    The above two together provide invulnerability to literally all attacks, so we'll throw them out and start over.

    The Dragonbone golem "Magic Immunity" is not "Immunity to Magic" which is defined as SR infinity in Rules Cyclopedia. Instead it's immunity to all direct magical effects. This was deemed plausibly a typo due to examples of Magic Immunity be updated to SR infinity in various errata.


    The build's class levels, feats, etc... make the build extraordinarily dangerous and significantly tougher.
    Spoiler
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    The initial race: Phrenic Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar
    We mind switch into a Protean and the Rebuild with the Unseelie fey template.

    The classes:
    Factotum 1/Urban Fighter(Targeteer) 1/Urban Marshall 1/Master Thrower 4/Swordsage 1/Master Thrower 1/Cleric 1(Fate,Pride)/Fist of Raziel 1/Witch Hunter 1/Crusader 2/Warblade 1/Iajutsu Master 5
    Note that classes require rebuilding to get around BAB entry requirements for Master Thrower.

    Initial Stats:
    Str 8/Dex 8/Con 8/Int 20/Wis 10/Cha 26
    Final Stats:
    Str 51/Dex 39/Con 42(48)/Int 28(36)/Wis 11/Cha 40(46) (wish+5 for Con,Int,Cha, age to vulnerable, Protean body swap, Unseelie fey, all level bonuses to Cha, values in brackets are due to magical item bonuses)

    Init 37, Darkvision 60, Spot 23
    AC 67 Touch 39 Flat 67 Flat Touch 39 Uncanny Dodge
    HP 264

    Fort: +66=+17 (class levels) +18(Kama's Grace)+1(trait)+19(Con)+1(luck)+5(resistance)+5(sa cred)
    Refl: +54=+13 (class levels) +18(Kama's Grace)+14(Dex)-2(traits) +1(luck)+5(resistance)+5(Sacred)
    Will: +97=+10 (class levels) +18(Kama's Grace)+18(Indomitable Soul)+19(Con)+18(Minor Aura: Force of Will)+2(Iron Will)+5(Resistance)+5(Sacred)+1(luck)+1(trait)
    Evasion Reroll 1's once, 1 not auto fail for fort
    +12 2/encounter (Factotum Inspiration)

    Speed 50', Fly 100(good)

    The standard attack routine uses 10 palm throw daggers doing expect
    173 damage each on a touch attack with about +41 to hit.

    Trait: -1 Refl/+1 Will and -1 Refl/+1 Fort

    Feats (Flaws: -2 wis, -1 AC, E/S means Embrace the dark chaos/shun the Dark chaos)
    1. PBS
    1.(flaw) Dark Stalker
    1.(flaw) Precise Shot
    2. (Targeteer) Power Attack
    2.(Targeteer, EWF) E/S Steadfast Determination
    2.(Targeteer, EWF) E/S Stand Still
    3. Endurance
    4.(MT) Quickdraw
    6. Far Shot
    7.(MT, Snatch Arrows) E/S Multiweapon Fighting
    8.(Sword Sage, Virtual) WF(Dagger, Sai)
    9. Imp Init
    9.(MT, Imp Crit Dagger) E/S Servant of the Heavens
    9.(Mt, Imp Crit Sai) E/S Track
    12. Quick Recovery
    15. WF(Katana)
    16.(Iajutsu Master) WFinesse(Katana)
    18. Improved Flight
    19.(Iajutsu master) E/S Mage Slayer

    Skills:
    Tumble+40, Escape Artist+40, Diplomacy+44, Spot+23, Sense Motive+23, Iajutsu Focus+44, Sleight of Hand+37, Balance+22, Concentration+16

    Martial powers:
    Swordsage:
    Island of Blades
    Shadow Jaunt
    Emerald Razor
    Sapphire Nightmare Blade
    Flashing Sun
    Wind Stride
    Counter Charge

    Crusader:
    Stone Foot Stance
    Foe Hammer
    Mountain Hammer
    White Raven Strike
    Lion's Roar
    Battle Leader's Charge

    Warblade:
    Stance of Clarity
    Iron Heart Surge
    Disarming Strike
    White Raven Tactics

    skill tricks:
    Nimble Stand
    Acrobatic Backstab
    Clarity of Vision
    Collector of Stories
    Quick Escape
    Sudden Draw
    Easy Escape
    Hidden Blade

    Items:
    200 mithral masterwork dimunitive daggers
    2 masterwork dimunitive Katanas
    1 Adamantium Buckler +1 +Proof against Transmutation
    4 Adamantium Bucklers+1
    1 Adamantium Buckler +5+Empyreal

    Remaining wealth is spent on Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos, and wishes for inherent+5 Dex, Con, Int, Chr.


    By request, here is the ExFighter in a monster stat block.
    Spoiler
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    Any size Fey (Shapechanger, Psionic, Evil)
    Hit Dice: 20 (266 hp)
    Initiative: +37 (+14 Dex, +18 Cha, +1 Swordsage, +4 Improved Initiative)
    Speed: 50 ft. Fly 100 ft (good)
    Armor Class: 55-71 (-8 to +8 size, +14 Dex, +12 Int, +28 natural -1 flaw) Uncanny dodge, (size varies via Alter Shape)
    Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+45 (size varies via Alter Shape)
    Attack: Slam +41 melee (2d6+21/19-20)
    Full Attack: 5 slams +41 melee (2d6+21/19-20)
    With Alter Form (Marilith arms): 10 thrown diminutive daggers +39 Touch (1+ Iajutsu Focus (d6 + 15) per dice)
    Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (varies via Alter Shape)
    Special Attacks: Psionics, Psi-like abilities, destabilize form, Vernal Touch, Ferocity, Palm Throw, Weak Spot, Knowledge Devotion, Strike from the Void
    Special Qualities: Alter shape, darkvision 120 ft., regeneration 50, spell resistance 39, DR 15/Cold Iron, Iron Vulnerability, Vision, Defensive Throw, Pride Domain, Fate Domain, Magic Circle, Kami's Grace, Indomitable Will, Detect Evil, Canny defense, Lightning Blade
    Saves: Fort +66 autosuccess on 1, Ref +54 Evasion, Will +97 rerolls 1's once (pride domain), +12 2/encounter (Factotum Inspiration)
    Abilities: Str 51, Dex 39, Con 48, Int 36, Wis 11, Cha 46
    Skills: Tumble+40, Escape Artist+40, Diplomacy+46, Spot+23, Sense Motive+23, Iajutsu Focus+44, Sleight of Hand+37, Balance+22, Concentration+16
    Feats: Point Blank Shot, Run, Precise Shot, Dark Stalker, Power Attack, Steadfast Determination, Stand Still, Endurance, Quickdraw, Far Shot, Multiweapon Fighting, WF(Dagger, Sai), Imp Init, Servant of the Heavens, Track, Quick Recovery, WF(Katana), WFinesse(Katana), Improved Flight, Mage Slayer
    Environment: Any
    Organization: Solitary
    Challenge Rating: Lots
    Treasure: 200 mithral masterwork dimunitive daggers
    2 masterwork dimunitive Katanas, 1 Adamantium Buckler +1+Proof Against Transmutation, 4 Adamantium Buckler+1, 1 Adamantium Buckler+5+Empyreal
    Cloak resistance+5, Chr+6, Item Con+6, Item Int+6, Luckstone
    Alignment: Lawful Good

    Abilities that matter:

    Alter Shape (Ex)
    A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action. In fact, a protean’s form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape (even if that shape is a combination of several shapes). Whatever its present form, the protean retains all its own special qualities. Plus, it gains the advantage of up to four extraordinary abilities from the forms it mimics (but not spell-like or supernatural powers). The assumed form can be no smaller than a flea and no larger than 200 feet in its largest dimension (make sure to take into account rules for reach and size modifiers to AC and melee attacks). Incorporeal traits can also be assumed, which counts as a single extraordinary ability. If a hagunemnon assumes a partial form that confers an extraordinary ability already possessed by the creature, only the better of the two abilities is retained. No matter its form, the protean can never make more than five attacks using a full-round action. However, it may substitute a melee attack form for one of its slam attacks, using its own base attack bonus and Strength modifier to damage, but dealing base damage appropriate to the attack type.
    Strike from the void(Ex): An Iajutsu Master of 5th level or higher adds her Charisma Modifier to each extra damage die gained from the Iajutsu Focus Skill.
    Weak Spot(Ex): A master thrower can gain this ability only after reaching 5th level. When using a thrown weapon against a target of her size or larger, the character can make a ranged touch attack instead of a normal attack. If the attack hits, the master thrower does not apply her strength bonus to the damage.
    Palm Throw(Ex): When using little thrown weapons (darts, daggers, shuriken, the DM may allow other weapons) a master thrower with this ability may throw two of each weapon with a single attack roll. Damage for each weapon is resolved separately, but the master thrower does not apply her strength bonus to either damage roll.
    Abilities that don't matter (and aren't used).

    Psionics (Sp)
    At will —detect thoughts, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, knock, nondetection, plane shift, suggestion. Caster level 20th, save DC 22.
    Psi-Like Abilities(Sp): (Manifester level 20, Charisma based saves)
    3/day Defensive precognition, Empty Mind, Mind Thrust, Intellect Fortress, Psionic Teleport,
    1/day Force screen, Body Adjustment, Brain Lock, Aversion, Blast, Psychic Crush, Psionic dominate, Energy Current, Tower of Iron Will, Fission, Ultrablast
    Vernal Touch(Su): At will, as a standard action, the Unseelie Fey can touch a creature with Vernal Touch. This touch removes Dazed, Nauseated, Fatigued, and Exhausted conditions from living creatures. For undead creatures, an Unseelie Fey's vernal touch attack acts like a cleric's ability to turn undead as a cleric of level 18. Unlike a cleric's turn ability, each use of vernal touch affects only the undead touched.
    Magic Circle(Su): A 1st-level Fist of Raziel is constantly surrounded by a magic circle against evil effect, as the spell cast by a cleric of the fist's character level.
    Iron Vulnerability (Ex): The mere touch of Iron (including steel) does 1 point of damage to the unseelie fey. A hit with an iron or steel weapon deals an additional 1d6 points of damage. The Fey's DR protects it from this damage. Roll the damage as normal and apply DR, unless the weapon can defeat the fey's DR.
    Vision (Ex): Low Light
    Destabilize Form (Su)
    If a protean hits with two or more slam attacks in the same round, it partly destabilizes its foe’s physical form, dealing an additional 4d6+31 points of damage as well as 2 points of temporary Constitution damage. If the victim is drained to 0 Constitution, its dead body is only so much clear fluid that drains away unless somehow preserved by friends of the victim.


    Altogether, this provides a significantly greater immunity to harm than the Emerald Legion exhibits.
    Spoiler
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    All direct Su and Sp effects are shutdown by the colossus AMF.

    The Umbral Blot disintegrating touch is an autosave.

    All Holy Word style effects are blocked by AMF and Tarrasque Regeneration.

    Brain eating attacks can easily be made very difficult by having the head(s) of a 12-headed hydra.

    The Colossus AMF provides an effect similar to Truesight and debuffs enemy wizards.

    An epic spellcaster can explicitly cast through the AMF, although epic spellcasting is known badly broken with mitigation. Even then, Ex is immune to many epic effects due to Immunity to Magic.


    Ex is somewhere between essentially totally invulnerable and vulnerable to esoteric attacks, depending on rules interpretations. Possible methods of attack include:

    The Sphere of Annihilation.
    Spoiler
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    The Sphere of Annihilation may or may not be suppressed by Colossus AMF.

    AMF_A suppresses the artifact. The definition of antimagic was updated in Rules Cyclopedia with no exception for artifacts.
    Magic items that have continuous effects don't function in an antimagic area, but their effects aren't canceled.
    A counterargument is that the above refers to an antimagic area rather than an antimagic field. However, there are essentially no sources of antimagic not referencing the AMF spell so this is a very implausible interpretation.

    A second argument notes that Colossus AMF itself is not magical, but it refers to the spell for effects. The spell notes:
    Artifacts... are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.
    Taken literally, this sentence does not apply to the Colossus AMF because it is not magic.

    AMF_B does not suppress the artifact. Taking "mortal magic" as a throwaway descriptor, the AMF would still not apply to artifacts. Note that not using Rules Cyclopedia opens up the possibility of Ex being incorporeal inside an AMF.

    I asked about this separately but wasn't very convinced by the answers.


    Trollbane
    Spoiler
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    Trollbane_A is susceptible to poison immunity, since it's description states:
    Trollbane functions as injury poison (DMG 296)
    and the poison rules there specifically note poison immunity as providing immunity to harm. Furthermore, the trollbane description states:
    A successful hit... will expose the target to the poison.
    identifying trollbane circumstantially as a poison.

    Trollbane_B is not susceptible to poison immunity, since the description does not state that it is a poison explicitly.


    Disjunction against AMF
    Spoiler
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    Colossus AMF may or may not be susceptible to Disjunction, depending on interpretation.

    Disjunction_A can not destroy the AMF effect because Extraordinary abilities are explicitly undispellable.
    Effects ... that ... disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.
    Disjunction_B destroys all AMF effects regardless of source, since the text says:
    You also have a 1% chance per caster level of destroying an antimagic field.
    Disjunction_A is useless in attacking Ex, while Disjunction_B would drop the AMF until reinstated on Ex's next turn.

    Generally, the more specialized rule wins when conflicts arise and the Disjunction_B rules is more specific than the one for Disjunction_A.


    Initiate of Mystra against AMF
    Spoiler
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    An Initiate of Mystra allows casting spells within an AMF.
    You can attempt to cast spells even within a dead magic zone or an antimagic field ... If this check is successful, your spell functions normally.
    Normal_A: The normal function of a spell in an AMF is to be suppressed. An IoM can still cast a spell in an AMF and have it take effect outside the AMF.

    Normal_B: The casting of it's spell and it's effects are the same thing, and hence IoM spells are not suppressed within an AMF.


    Blasphemy/Word of Chaos/Word of Balance
    Spoiler
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    There is a rules conflict here.

    Word_A does not kill Ex, because Tarrasque Regeneration says:
    The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.
    lesser effects of these spells do apply (weakness, daze, nausea).

    Word_B kills Ex, because a caster level 30+ spell has the effect:
    Living creatures die.
    Generally, the more specialized rule wins when conflicts arise and Tarrasque regeneration is more specific.


    Transcend Mortality
    Spoiler
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    Transcend Mortality is similar to the Word dispute, but with more weight for the spell.

    Transcend_A does not kill Ex because Tarrasque Regeneration states:
    The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.
    Transcend_B kills Ex, because the spell states:
    When the spell ends, you are instantly slain and reduced to a pile of dust (as disintegrate). This effect allows no save and can't be prevented by any means, though you can be resurrected afterwards.
    It is unclear whether an esoteric spell or an esoteric monster ability is more specialized.


    Time Travel
    Spoiler
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    Time travel is difficult to guard against, but the reversion effect discussed there suggests attacking Ex before Proteanization will just result in a different Ex being created.


    A number of attacks that don't work have been suggested. I'll list a few of the highlights.
    Spoiler
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    1) Shapechange(Dire Tortoise) + high initiative + Disjunction to break AMF + Supernatural (DweomerKeeper) Force Shapechange (Oriental Adventures) to break all immunities + followup attack. This could be an effective approach, except that achieving a sufficent save DC is an unmet challenge. Tainted Scholar + Circle Magic + Irresistable Spell, can put a save DC at 97 which is Ex's base Will save DC. Dismantling items by sunder is possible, but it takes additional actions. The probability of success for all known variants is only 1/400 due to the Pride Domain.

    2) Infinite vile force orbs have no effect due to regeneration converting damage to nonlethal (which vile does not change) and immunity to nonlethal implying that nonlethal damage is never incurred and hence never need be healed.

    3) Breaking Antimagic in one of various ways plus a
    L30+ Supernatural Blasphemy benefitting from Archmage Mastery of Elements. Supernatural penetrates Immunity to Magic, Master of Elements penetrates specific energy immunities (such as Skitterhaunt Sonic immunity), and a L30+ Blasphemy has a no save kill effect. Tarrasque Regeneration specifically notes that only Wish or Regeneration can kill providing immunity to the autokill. Some of the lesser effects still apply.

    4) Break Antimagic, then Supernatural Transcend Mortality from a Spellguard of Silverymoon which has no save, no SR, resulting in instant death. This attack is prevented by the transmutation immunity from the buckler. Sundering is difficult given the 5 other otherwise identical bucklers.


    Does anyone see a viable nonepic attack form? I'd like answers which obey WBL, ECL20- with level buyoff, and which don't use infinite loops. Relaxations of these rules are interesting if they prove necessary. If you want to attempt epic spellcasting at ECL 20-, please do it without mitigation.

    Edits: Changed preface a bit, and updated the initial choice of Ex abilities. Added rules disputes section and added a failed attacks section. Swapped Barbarian for Marshall, Battledancer for Factotum. Added Magic items.
    Last edited by Anthrowhale; 2013-02-02 at 09:25 PM.

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    Default Re: The ExFighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Or a flaw in the approach?
    The wizard you hired is lazy and decided to just mindrape you into believing he had done all this instead.
    Last edited by Story; 2012-12-28 at 02:57 AM.

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    Default Re: The ExFighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Story View Post
    The wizard you hired is lazy and decided to just mindrape you into believing he had done all this instead.
    With all this effort, why not just be a Wizard instead? (and have a 3 level dip in Cleric devoted to Mystra)
    Larloch, The Shadow King (w/ Ioun Stones) avatar by Iron Penguin

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    That's the real problem. All you've done is shown that with the help of a bunch of high level spellcasters, along with a lot of TO cheese, you can become almost as good as a spellcaster. I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove here.


    As far as vulnerabilities go, Holy Word is an obvious one. Keep in mind that at this level of cheese, AMFs are worthless. You can safely assume that your opponents are casting any spell they like off any list at arbitrarily high caster level inside an AMF at will . Though why bother when you have stuff like Love's Pain?
    Last edited by Story; 2012-12-28 at 03:03 AM.

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    The real problem is that the Wizard opened a Gate system to a significantly more dangerous astral body than a star... like a pulsar or blackhole.

    I pretty much agree with story. I don't even have to look at the build to smell the cheese, and I really only deal in practical play. I'd make a crass joke about an electronic-(somethingcrass), but this isn't worth risking a ban.
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2012-12-28 at 03:13 AM.
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    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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    ML45 is not so hard. Wizard 1/Wilder 9/Cerebremancer 10 with Psiotheurgist, Overchannel, Improved Spellcaster, Improved Manifester, UMDing Beads of Karma and Wild Surge has ML 45.
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    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    The real problem is that the Wizard opened a Gate system to a significantly more dangerous astral body than a star... like a pulsar or blackhole.
    Now I have a better question now that you mention creating a gate to a black hole. Does Gravity travel through a gate like matter and other energies (I always thought Gravity was a force, but eh, I might be wrong) would?

    For example, If a rock were to float in a plane with no gravity and traveled through a plane with normal gravity, would the effects of the weightless plane still have any hold on the rock once it travels to the plane with gravity?

    EDIT: A better question would be if I casted gate to a destination I knew had a Black hole near it would the tugging force of the Black Hole be able to suck something in through the Gate, into the Vacuum and finally into the Black Hole?
    Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-12-28 at 03:22 AM.
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    Default Re: The ExFighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    Now I have a better question now that you mention creating a gate to a black hole. Does Gravity travel through a gate like matter and other energies (I always thought Gravity was a force, but eh, I might be wrong) would?

    For example, If a rock were to float in a plane with no gravity and traveled through a plane with normal gravity, would the effects of the weightless plane still have any hold on the rock once it travels to the plane with gravity?
    I would say so, but we have no precedent.

    Even if it doesn't, you can probably use a weightless (No weight, no force of gravity) plane to keep yourself safe from your new pet while you transport it to the location/plane of the Exfighter. Even if the Exfighter survives, he's trapped forever.

    I guess you'd have to find a way to move the hole. If you could put a suitably massive object between your gate and the black hole, the momentum from being attracted to your object should get it moving towards your gate, and hoplefully carry it through. In a wieghtless plane, Mage Hand (which measures effectiveness in weight in pounds) can move the 0 lbs blackhole through the weightless plane and into your target location.

    EDIT: My original plan. Stargate style, I like to call it.
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2012-12-28 at 03:28 AM.
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    Default Re: The ExFighter

    Congratulations, Anthrowhale, on the most intricate non-repetitive backstory ascension sequence I've ever seen.

    What's the deal with the Cleric dip, though? Doesn't that, well, kind of interfere with your schtick of "totally not a caster"?
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    Default Re: The ExFighter

    *stares, slack-jawed, at the abomination that is the furthest thing from his mind upon hearing the term "fighter"*

    ........ wow. I'm not even sure what to say about this veritable fondue pot of a character build.

    The worst part though; The very best this thing can do is force a draw with a caster. Sure, no non-deific, non-epic caster can touch him, but he can't touch them either. Not unless we're assuming the same (arbitrary) restrictions as the last mage-killer Anthro came up with.

    It's truly astounding what a cadre of casters can make out of a beat-stick though, innit it?
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-12-28 at 09:51 PM. Reason: Accidental double-negative
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    Default Re: The ExFighter

    Using granted domain powers from cleric levels is just as bad as using spells.

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    Default Re: The ExFighter

    Meh, many melee character classes have spells. Spells are not soley the domain of Tier 1 casters.
    Last edited by Togo; 2012-12-28 at 07:51 AM.

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    Default Re: The ExFighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Togo View Post
    Meh, many melee character classes have spells. Spells are not soley the domain of Tier 1 casters.
    Melee yes but not mundane.

    I don't remember the Fighter or Barbarian gaining spells... Or the Rogue for that matter.

    Crusader Warblade and Swordsage don't gane spells (though there are some supernatural choices to be had with swordwsage).

    Heck even the Monk doesn't gain spells.. Just weird Ki powers that are su. But then again the monk isn't really the best choice for well anything (aside from a 2 level dip).

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    Default Re: The ExFighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    why not just be a Wizard instead?
    It seemed too easy

    Quote Originally Posted by Story View Post
    Holy Word
    AMF defeats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Story View Post
    AMFs are worthless.
    Prove it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Story View Post
    Love's Pain?
    AMF defeats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    blackhole
    This seems likely effective in extrapolation, but it's not specified in game, sadly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Psiotheurgist
    I wasn't aware of Psiotheurgist which sounds cool, but it doesn't seem preferred---I was trying to avoid exotic class combinations in hired services.

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    What's the deal with the Cleric dip, though?
    I'm happy enough with Caster level -3 and never actually casting spells. Similarly, there are the pesky spell like abilities from Phrenic to avoid using.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    no non-deific, non-epic caster can't touch him
    I'm not entirely sure of this---maybe someone is cleverer than me, and there are many rules I haven't read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    but he can't touch them either.
    That depends. Is an Umbral Blot deific? They don't have divine rank 0+. If they aren't deific, ExFighter can engage in all forms of planar travel at will implying that a wizard is about as vulnerable as a wizard can be. More generally, Alter Form seems versatile enough to make the character Tier 1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    It seemed too easy
    AMF defeats.
    Prove it?
    AMF defeats.
    Invoke Magic. Combined with the usual Earth Spell cheese, you can cast any spell you want inside an AMF.

    There's also Initiate of Mystra if you don't want to waste your swift action. Though really, at this level of optimization, breaking the action economy is trivial anyway.
    Last edited by Story; 2012-12-28 at 12:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Story View Post
    Invoke Magic. Combined with the usual Heighten Spell/Earth Magic cheese, I can cast any spell I want inside an AMF.
    Sorry, I don't follow.

    Invoke Magic only enables L4- spells.

    Heighten Spell can only be used to decrease that window.

    I'm not sure what Earth Magic is, but Earth Spell only decreases that window.

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    Default Re: The ExFighter

    Well using Shadowcraft Mage and Earth Spell, you can cast Miracle out of 0th level slots. Though now that I've read it, I'm not sure if it can actually be used together with Invoke Magic.

    But anyway, it's all irrelevant thanks to Mage's Disjunction. The description says it can destroy any Antimagic Field, not just ones resulting from spells.

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    Default Re: The ExFighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Story View Post
    Shadowcraft Mage ... Invoke Magic.
    A silent image heightened to 9th level is a 9th level spell and hence invalid as a target of Invoke Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Story View Post
    But anyway, it's all irrelevant thanks to Mage's Disjunction. The description says it can destroy any Antimagic Field, not just ones resulting from spells.
    Disjunction does nothing to effect the Ex ability to project an AMF. Hence, while it may destroy the AMF, the Ex ability remains and will continue projecting the AMF. This means that caster level 100+ Disjunction can be used to take out suppressed spells and magic items within the AMF, but that it can't be used to enable other spell casting since it only has an instantaneous duration.

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    So you get around not being a caster by hiring a bunch of casters?

    As Story pointed out, money is no guarantee of control. Why would they go to all that trouble merely to give you godlike power? For metal shinies? And every single caster in your opening phase has access to divinations to know what you're up to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    ML45 is not so hard. Wizard 1/Wilder 9/Cerebremancer 10 with Psiotheurgist, Overchannel, Improved Spellcaster, Improved Manifester, UMDing Beads of Karma and Wild Surge has ML 45.
    Nitpick - you can't combine Overchannel and Wild Surge.

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    Default Re: The ExFighter

    To me the issue is that you have optimised this thing to hell and back and a sorcerer with 2 feats (Sanctum spell and searing spell) and 2 spells (greater arcane fusion and orb of fire) can kill it. Granted it does it with an infinite loop trick but still.

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    Default Re: The ExFighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Nitpick - you can't combine Overchannel and Wild Surge.
    You can't? Darn. Spellgifted and an Ioun Stone make up the difference.

    And whether or not this is more exotic than StP Erudite abusing Mental Pinnacle and Consumptive Field is arguable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So you get around not being a caster by hiring a bunch of casters?
    It's pretty well established that a build with no magical support is not a challenge for a wizard.

    More generally, I don't expect most campaigns have a brotherhood of wizards that cooperate to impose a glass ceiling on fighters. Maybe Lich A goes for all the marbles so wizard B decides to raise up a fighter that can actually be relevant? Or maybe a party takes pity on it's fighter and the party casters decide to raise it up? Although ExFighter is quite tough, I don't think it truly qualifies as deific in any real sense as it lacks any significant degree of omniscience or deific rank.

    Note also that Alter Form imposes a nontrivial penalty: you need to spend a move action every round or have your form start boiling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elderand View Post
    2 feats (Sanctum spell and searing spell) and 2 spells (greater arcane fusion and orb of fire) can kill it.
    (a) Searing Spell is not needed, as there is no immunity to Fire.
    (b) Regeneration + immune to nonlethal makes the damage useless.
    (c) Immunity to fort effects for nonobjects makes the daze useless.

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    Default Re: The ExFighter

    If anyone has a method that of transporting a 7th level spell into an AMF without trouble then he is kill-able
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    If anyone has a method that of transporting a 7th level spell into an AMF without trouble then he is kill-able
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    More generally, I don't expect most campaigns have a brotherhood of wizards that cooperate to impose a glass ceiling on fighters.
    No, but it would take a monumentally stupid caster to willingly create something that thereafter can ignore most if not all of his magic.

    But the other problem with this plan is that it breaches into epic rules - which means that epic spellcasting becomes a consideration, and therefore a cabal of enemy casters can simply make an epic spell that strips you of your powers or seals you away if you get too uppity. Your constant AMF won't save you, and with the right factors they can do this from across the globe or even another plane.

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    Default Re: The ExFighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    (a) Searing Spell is not needed, as there is no immunity to Fire.
    (b) Regeneration + immune to nonlethal makes the damage useless.
    (c) Immunity to fort effects for nonobjects makes the daze useless.
    Remove seraing spell then. And Regeneration doesn't really matter. It's an infinite loop, with one standard action you get an arbritraly high damage. The daze is indeed useless, it's also doesn't matter.

    The question is whether or not the zodar invulnerability stops an orb or not. That I do not know. But if it doesn't, one standard action drop you to minus whetever number is deemed appropriate. If it does, I wonder if gating in a collossal whale and dropping it on his head would be considered an attack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Maybe Lich A goes for all the marbles so wizard B decides to raise up a fighter that can actually be relevant?
    Why bother when they can just go beat up the lich themselves? Literally anything the fighter can do, the wizard can do better.

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    Default Re: The ExFighter

    Question, is falling damage different then weapon damage?

    Since fly is only good could this be exploited to cause a crash?

    What about crushing damage that does not result from an attack IE a trap, collapsed ceiling, and so forth?
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    Default Re: The ExFighter

    Solid Fog cast two rounds in a row. Then figure out how to toss him into the Abyss or something (if you can't open a Gate or Plane Shift right underneath him and just let up the Solid Fog and watch him fall, enough uses of Dominate will make him eventually roll a 1... for the second time), where he can spend the rest of his days fighting demons.
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    Default Re: The ExFighter

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Cheater of Mystra?
    It uses Ur-Priest so I'm not sure that works.
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