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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

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    Apr 2010

    Default Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    .

    We all know that despite its many features, in practice, the Monk is probably the second weakest official base class (right after the Soulknife).
    I also don’t need to tell you all about the magnitude of Monk fixes out there.

    I actually haven’t had plans of dealing with the Monk, but Zman's Monk Fix has stirred something in me, because it was the first time that I saw a decent start for fixing the Monk that uses the core class as a baseline.

    Using the following distinction of levels of power and what I know of class balance, I tried to spread the Monk’s abilities (feature-wise) to keep up with the pace of the game at all levels.
    I also paid attention not to let personal taste affect this proposed fix and narrowed down things to practicality. For instance, I don’t care for Tongue of the Sun and Moon, but it doesn’t interfere with anything, so I kept it as it is.

    The general aim here is, as usual for me, tier-3.

    I’m presenting here only the changes I found appropriate to the core Monk.
    Whatever’s not specifically (or only partially) addressed here, it is to be taken from the core class as given.

    As a general guideline regarding the Special Column’s content:
    - Features with no changes from the core class are presented in normal text.
    - Features with some changes and core features that need no further explanations (e.g. Uncanny Dodge) are bolded.
    - Features with massive changes (Ki Strike) and entirely new features (Ascetic Athleticism, Freedom of Movement...) are bolded, underlined and italicized


    Table: The new monk
    {table=head]Level|Special|AC Bonus|Unarmored Speed Bonus

    1st|Bonus Feat, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Ascetic Athleticism|
    +0
    |
    +0

    2nd|Bonus Feat, Evasion|
    +1
    |
    +5

    3rd|Uncanny Dodge, Still Mind|
    +1
    |
    +5

    4th|Ki Strike (magic, Wis-bonus alternative), Meditation|
    +2
    |
    +10

    5th|Purity of Body, Dedicated Dodge|
    +2
    |
    +10

    6th|Bonus Feat, Mercurial Stride|
    +3
    |
    +15

    7th|Wholeness of Body, Ki Strike (material, 1H, Crit I)|
    +3
    |
    +15

    8th|Improved Uncanny Dodge, Tempered Body|
    +4
    |
    +20

    9th|Improved Evasion, Offensive Mobility|
    +4
    |
    +20

    10th|Ki Strike (alignment, Wis-bonus accumulation), Denying Assault|
    +5
    |
    +25

    11th|Diamond Body, Greater Flurry|
    +5
    |
    +25

    12th|Bonus Feat, Abundant Step|
    +6
    |
    +30

    13th|Diamond Soul, Ki Strike (damage type, Ghost Touch)|
    +6
    |
    +30

    14th|Freedom of Movement, Touching The Ripples|
    +7
    |
    +35

    15th|Quivering Palm, Retributive Flurry|
    +7
    |
    +35

    16th|Ki Strike (any, 2H, Crit II), Boundless Reach|
    +8
    |
    +40

    17th|Diamond Resilience, Tongue of the Sun and Moon|
    +8
    |
    +40

    18th|Bonus Feat, Temporal Ki Surge|
    +9
    |
    +45

    19th|Empty Body, Diamond Essence|
    +9
    |
    +45

    20th|Perfect Self, Ki Strike (all)|
    +10
    |
    +50

    [/table]


    Alignment: No restriction (see Ki-Strike below).

    Class Skills: Add Autohypnosis (XPH, p.36), Lucid Dreaming (MotP, p.203) and Spellcraft as class skills.

    Skill Points per Level: 6 + Int-mod (x4 at 1st level)

    Monk Weapons: Monks may flurry with Dart and Shuriken. Further, monks add their Dex-bonus when calculating attack rolls & damage scores when attacking with Dart and Shuriken.



    Feature Descriptions

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    Unarmed Strike
    In addition to the details presented in PHB:
    1. For all intent and purpose, a Monk is considered to possess the feat Improved Unarmed Strike.
    2. The Monk's unarmed damage applies to all Monk weapons.
    3. When fighting unarmed or when using Monk weapons, a monk gains a +1 bonus to all opposed combat checks (Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Grapple, Overrun, Trip and Sunder) – offensive as well as defensive. For every 4 Monk levels past 1st (5, 9, 13...), this bonus increases by an additional +1.

    Flurry of Blows (Ex)
    A monk may use a standard, full, or charge attack to strike with a Flurry of Blows.

    Ascetic Athleticism (Ex)
    Monks are capable of incredible feats of athleticism and add their Monk level to any Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Move Silently, Swim and Tumble check.

    Unarmored Speed Bonus (Ex)
    With level advancement, monks develop lightning quick reactions and become exceptionally agile.
    Using this ability, a monk within arm’s reach of a solid vertical surface/object can use it to slow her descent and reduces any fall damage she would’ve taken by 1d6 per 5ft granted by her Unarmored Bonus Speed (down to zero).
    Furthermore, if the vertical surface is in any way scalable, the monk may make a Climb check with -10 to her DC check at the beginning of her fall and another attempt every 30ft thereafter.

    Bonus Feat
    At levels 1 and 2nd, and at every level divisible by 6, a monk can select any Fighter Bonus feat.
    The Monk needs to meet the prerequisites as normal to select these feats with the exception of Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip and Stunning Fist.

    Still Mind (Ex)
    A monk of 3rd level or higher gains a +2 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of enchantment.
    Starting at 10th level, the monk’s mind is strong and disciplined enough to gain total immunity to fear, charm and compulsion effects and a +2 bonus to all other Will saves.

    Ki Strike (Su)
    At 4th level, monks receive the single most iconic and most influential of all of their abilities.
    When fighting unarmed or when using Monk weapons, the monk receives a plethora of benefits.
    - At 4th level, a monk’s attacks are empowered with Ki. The monk’s attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of bypassing DR. The monk may now choose to add her Wis-bonus to attack rolls instead of Str/Dex (melee/range) and to damage scores instead of Str.
    - At 7th level, a monk’s attack may count as any specific material. This however is not automatic. At the beginning of an encounter with an unknown opponent, this ability is inactive. Once the monk has made a successful attack against a target that has DR/[material], the monk’s strike is partially blocked by the target’s DR. From there on, the monk may augment her strike’s Ki to ignore the target’s DR/[material]. Shifting Ki in such a manner to adapt to opponents is a swift action. The monk’s strike now counts as 1-handed weapon for all purposes that favor this category over small weapons (e.g. Disarm, Sunder etc). Finally, the monk’s critical threat range and critical multiplier improve (19-20/x3 when fighting unarmed – calculate separately for each Monk weapon). This does not stack with feats that enhance critical threat/multiplier.
    - At 10th level, having battled many denizens of outer worlds and transcending her own inherent view of existence, a monk’s unarmed attack may count as fused with any single alignment, using the mechanics defined for Ki Strike (material). The monk may now add her Wis-bonus to attack rolls and damage scores on top of her Str/Dex bonuses.
    13th: The monk’s attacks now counts as Piercing / Slashing (on top of bludgeoning), using the mechanics defined for Ki Strike (material) and Ki Strike (alignment). The monk’s attacks now also count as having the Ghost Touch property.
    - At 16th level, there’s no DR type a monk cannot adapt to, except DR/-. The monk’s unarmed strike now counts as 2-handed weapon for all purposes that favor this category over small weapons (e.g. Disarm, Sunder etc). Finally, the monk’s unarmed critical threat range and multiplier improve yet again (18-20/x4 when fighting unarmed – calculate separately for each Monk weapon). This does not stack with feats that enhance critical threat/multiplier.
    - A 20th level monk knows how to fuse her unarmed strike with fluctuating energies. The Monk’s attacks now completely ignore DR. Furthermore, the monk now effortlessly maintains Ki and has it active at all times.

    Meditation (Ex)
    All monks meditate, both as a way of recovering from the rigors of their intense physical workouts and as a means of pursuing ultimate enlightenment.
    When a monk meditates, she lets her conscious mind slumber, while her unconscious spirit roams ancient paths, seeking out the truths of those who came before.
    Though initially, entering a meditative state requires long periods of preparation, by the time a monk hits 4th level, meditating becomes as simple a matter as breathing.
    The long hours of practice grant the monk bonus ranks, in both Autohypnosis and Concentration, equal to a maximized C-C skill.
    - The monk may now mimic Elven meditative rest instead of sleep for 1 hour, by making a Concentration check vs. DC 15. A monk who successfully meditates for eight hours straight gains all the benefits of a full day’s rest.
    - Elven monks have their meditative rest requirement cut down to 2 hours a day.
    A monk cannot benefit from the above more than once per day, but may make multiple attempts within the same day period and may benefit from normal rest as well.
    If the monk takes damage or is moved for any reason while meditating, she loses 1 hour worth of meditation.

    Purity of Body (Ex)
    At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases including supernatural and magical diseases.

    Dedicated Dodge (Ex)
    At 5th level, a monk gains the ability to evade with seemingly supernatural skill. At the beginning of her turn, she may decide to refrain from action (including AoOs, swift & immediate actions and 5ft-steps) and instead add her Monk level as a Dodge bonus to her Reflex saves and dodge AC until the beginning of her next turn.
    When performing Dedicated Dodge, a monk is limited to moving up to her modified speed during her turn.

    Mercurial Stride (Ex)
    A 6th level monk may ignore all forms of difficult terrain that don’t require skill checks or saving throws to pass through, though areas magically altered to slow movement still function.
    She may also make any number of turns when charging, and can incorporate Balance checks, Climb checks, Jump checks, Swim checks and Tumble checks into her movement (including when charging).
    She may also run across water or up walls, provided her movement is no less than 50 and she makes a DC 25 balance check.

    Wholeness of Body (Su)
    At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal her own wounds.
    She can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to her (permanent Wis-bonus) X (monk level) each day, and she can spread this healing out among several uses.
    A monk, using this ability, may trade HP healing to negate certain conditions.
    She may remove:
    - Ability Damage / Dazzled / Fatigued / Shaken / Sickened at a rate of 1 per 5 HP
    - Dazed / Diseased / Staggered at a rate of 1 per 10 HP
    - Exhausted / Frightened / Nauseated at a rate of 1 per 15 HP
    - Blinded / Deafened / Poisoned / Stunned at a rate of 1 per 20 HP
    - Ability Drain / Paralyzed at a rate of 1 per 30 HP
    - Negative Levels at a rate of 1 per 40 HP.
    Using Wholeness of Body is a swift action.
    All of the above can be done at any desired combination, so long as the monk has HP left to heal.

    Tempered Body (Ex)
    By 8th level, a monk's own body has changed and now counts as manufactured.
    The monk now gains DR 1/- per 4 Monk levels.
    Also, experience has granted her new insights regarding the potential of Ki and how it can be harnessed for her benefit in new and unique ways.
    Through elaborate rituals that involve meditation, precious materials and inner Ki-channeling, a monk may fuse her body with magical powers, as if possessing Craft Magic Arms and Armor (limited to her body and unarmed strikes), simultaneously treating her body as a single weapon and a single armor for the purpose of this feature. A monk that’s wearing armor (for whatever reason) loses her armor associated enhancements until the armor is un-donned.
    A monk's caster level for the purpose of self enhancements equals her Monk class level, and she needs not know a spell in order to apply an appropriate enhancement, but she does have to make a DC [25 + spell-level] Spellcraft check for an enhancement to succeed.
    Unlike when creating magical items, such process does not impose an XP toll on the monk.
    There are, however, certain weapon enhancements that may not be applied to monks' unarmed attacks. A monk's unarmed strike can only be enhanced by magical powers that affect either a weapon's wielder or a weapon's targets. So, enhancements such as Dancing, Sizing, Spell Storing or Brilliant Energy are inapplicable for monks' unarmed strike. The same trail of thought should be applied regarding armor enhancements.
    Special: A monk of higher level than 8th can also aid the efforts of other monks and bestow magical Ki powers upon them, as long as the receiving monk is of at least 8th level.
    Special: A monk that’s brought down below 8th level by energy drain does not lose existing enhancements, but such powers are postponed until the monk once again reaches 8th level, where her body is able to channel Ki to benefit from them.
    Special: A monk may purge no-longer-desired enhancements, spending 1/2 the time and cost they took to be imbued, but with no chance for failure.

    Offensive Mobility (Ex)
    A 9th level monk is able to move about the battlefield in a manner that others cannot emulate.
    She may take a 5ft-step after each successful attack roll.
    Furthermore, if she has not used up all of her allowed movement when making a charge attack, she does not have to end her movement right there and may complete her movement distance after she’s finished her attack sequence.

    Denying Assault (Ex)
    A 10th level monk's ability to react improves to inhuman levels.
    The monk may spend a swift action to postpone any immediate action done by a creature in response to her attacks, until after she has completed her attack sequence.

    Diamond Body (Ex)
    At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds. The monk also becomes immune to stunning, petrifaction and magically induced blindness/deafness.

    Abundant Step (Su)
    By 12th level, a monk has learned the secret of magically slipping between spaces as part of her movement.
    The monk may cover certain distances when she’s phased, thus can ignore physical barriers, moving at any direction in this fashion (horizontal as well as vertical), driven by her force of will. The distance that a monk can cover in this fashion cannot exceed twice her current movement speed.
    For each 5ft traveled in such manner, access to this ability is denied for 1 round. For each Monk level beyond 12th, this denial period is reduced by 1 round.
    Note: This is not teleportation. The monk is phased, not plane-shifted, so spells like Wall of Force and Prismatic Wall/Sphere affect her normally, but Dimensional Anchor and Dimensional Lock do not prevent the use of this ability.

    Diamond Soul
    SR = Monk level + 10 + Wis-bonus.
    A monk may, as a free action, allow spells to automatically bypass her SR (usually when originating from allies). To do so, a monk must be aware of the incoming spell.


    Freedom of Movement (Su)
    At 14th level and on, a monk continuously benefits from Freedom of Movement spell effect.

    Touching The Ripples (Ex)
    The monk’s senses become so attuned that she can feel what’s happening around her.
    Starting at 14th level, a monk benefits from Blind Sense as well as Tremor Sense, out to 30ft + 5ft per level beyond 14th.
    The monk also senses phased and ethereal creatures and objects with this ability.

    Quivering Palm (Su)
    This ability is usable once per day.
    Furthermore, a monk needs not gambit her Quivering Palm by announcing before making an attack roll and may choose to apply it only upon successful hit.
    Quivering Palm affects all living creatures - including oozes and plants, because it directly assault's the target's life force.
    Quivering Palm is an instantaneous effect - it cannot be postponed for a later time.
    For each 4 levels above 15th, a monk gains one additional daily use of Quivering Palm.

    Retributive Flurry (Ex)
    A 15th level monk's understanding of her martial arts is now perfected.
    From this point and on, whenever the monk is entitled to an AoO, she may retaliate in a blinding speed and make a FoB attack.

    Boundless Reach (Ex)
    This ability is an evolution of Abundant Step.
    A 16th level monk has the ability to slip extraordinarily between planes and dimensions, in a way that no magical effect can contain or block.
    The monk always returns to the plane from which she originated when executing Boundless Reach.
    The monk may now, instead of moving, affect thrown Monk weapons to bypass obstacles on their way to their targets for one round. A monk cannot apply Boundless Reach both to herself and to her thrown weapons in the same combat round.

    Diamond Resilience (Ex)
    By 17th level, your body is so strongly controlled that you can endure almost anything.
    She gains immunity to death effects and she no longer automatically fails her saving throws on a natural 1, though you may still fail such rolls normally.

    Temporal Ki Surge (Su)
    By 18th level, a monk has learned the secret of channeling Ki power to haste herself to godly speed as a once-per-hour swift action.
    This acceleration allows the monk to take an extra full-round action (essentially doubling her action allotment).
    Activating this ability comes with a price though. During the next round, the monk is fatigued and all benefits from Ki-Strike are suspended.

    Diamond Essence (Su)
    By 19th level, your essence is beyond the comprehension of most mortals and beyond the sway and detection of nearly all magic.
    You gain the benefits of a Mind blank effect at all times.
    Furthermore, once per day, as a free action, you gain the benefits of a Foresight spell effect.

    Perfect Self
    The monk’s quest for physical, mental and spiritual perfection is finally complete.
    The monk:
    - Receives a +2 perfection increase to all her ability scores.
    - Gains DR 10/-. This DR is applicable to damage from any attack, not just physical attacks.
    - Gains immunity to critical hits and death from massive damage.
    - Gains Blind Sight instead of Blind Sense ability. Touching The Ripples otherwise remains unchanged.
    - No longer ages. She remains in her current age category forever.



    Ex-Monks
    No such thing as Ex-Monk.





    New Feats

    Spoiler
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    Dispelling Strike
    Requirements: Monk 7th, Stunning Fist
    By spending 2 uses of Stunning Fist point as a free action, you can generate a touch-based Dispel Magic effect.
    starting at level 13, by spending 4 Ki points as a free action, you can generate a touch-based Greater Dispel Magic effect.

    Hydra's Toxin
    Requirements: Monk 10th, Stunning Fist
    By spending 3 uses of Stunning Fist as a swift action, you can force an opponent that you hit to immediately make a Fort save (DC 10 + ½ HD + WIS-mod) or be afflicted with either the Burning Blood toxin (1d6 Constitution damage) or the Freezing Blood toxin (1d6 Dexterity damage).

    Ki Slash
    Requirements: Monk 6th, Stunning Fist
    By spending 2 uses of Stunning Fist, the Monk may, as a standard action, swing a slashing weapon (including natural attack) and convert a physical attack into a 60ft line / 30ft arch (effectively a cone) / 15ft hemisphere force effect that would deal the same amount of damage as his physical attack would to anyone in the AoE.
    Targets in the AoE that are able to see the monk perform this attack and are not flatfooted are entitled to a Ref save vs. DC equal to the monk's attack roll to take 1/2 damage.

    Knockback
    Requirements: Stunning Fist, Improved Bull Rush
    By spending 1 use of Stunning Fist as part of an attack, a successful strike bull rushes the target, does not provoke an AoO, and you do not move from your square along with your target.

    Path of Spiritual Chains
    Requirements: Monk 10th, Stunning Fist
    The monk's attacks cannot be resisted by magical effects.
    By expending 3 uses of Stunning Fist , for 1 round per 3 Monk levels, the monk's touch neutralizes (but doesn't cancel) the effect of Freedom of Movement or similar abilities when initiating a grapple and prevents a grappled creature from teleporting or escaping to another plane, as if under the effects of a Dimensional Anchor spell.

    Walking Mediation
    Requirements: Monk level 6th, Autohypnosis 5, Concentration 8
    A monk who has mastered the art of meditating without moving can also learn how to enter a meditative state that allows him to speak, to observe the world around him and to move as normal. This state of enlightened awareness, at once travelling the earth and the realms of the mind and spirit, is known as the art of Walking Mediation.
    Entering a state of walking meditation requires 10 minutes of preparation, and a DC 25 Concentration check.
    - The monk adds his Wisdom modifier to his initiative checks.
    - While not engaged in combat, running or other intensely straining activities, the monk is considered to be fully resting, for all intents and purposes.
    Upon sustaining damage of any sort, the monk Walking Meditation state is lost until initiated once more.
    The following conditions also negate Walking Meditation: Confused, Dazed, Disabled, Fascinated, Frightened, Paralyzed, Shaken, Sickened, Stunned and Unconscious (or any of their more severe steps).
    Special: 6th level Elven monks gain this feat as a bonus feat upon meeting the skill rank requirements.

    .

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    Why did you remove alignment restriction and the ex-monks?

    Otherwise, an excellent fix.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zireael View Post
    Why did you remove alignment restriction and the ex-monks?
    Ex-[base class] is a baggage carried from BECMI and AD&D, where multiclassing was restricted to nonexistent. With time, it became apparent that multiclassing either ameliorates dead levels or serves as preparation for PrCs. I see no reason to carry this burdensome load.

    As for the alignment freedom - what if one wanted to play an anarchist monk, or someone that's just not burdened by thoughts of law and chaos?
    Why impose RP restrictions on a class?
    On a specific character - sure. On a base class - not in my book.

    Furthermore, it emphasizes the idea of mind over matter/energy/personality where Ki-Strike plays a role. I've been practicing Tai-Chi for the last year now, and have come to learn that one can have significant control over one's inherent instincts and personal tendencies.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    The monk still needs the ability to move and full attack at the same time, and even then I'd have trouble considering it T3. It's got a good chassis and eliminates the MAD problems that Monk has, but you've still essentially got nothing but a somewhat better base weapon and some scattered defensive and mobility options (and of course a really weak save or die).

    Plus, though monks don't really have much of a use for a swift action in combat, I really don't see the problem with letting them preset their fists or just plain ignore DR instead of being required to punch a guy. I mean, hell, if you know you're going to be facing demons, you'd damn sure know to use holy punches.

    Overall, it's definitely a step in the right direction, but it doesn't make it T3. T4, probably (definitely with the move+full attack built in), but I don't see it having enough utility in T3 even with the enhanced skill points.
    You rang?

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PEACH View Post
    The monk still needs the ability to move and full attack at the same time, and even then I'd have trouble considering it T3.
    Even in the worst cases, at the higher levels, a monk would only lose its least 2 attacks out of 5 and keep its big 3 attacks. Now the Monk is no longer crippled by not full-attacking. Also, there should be some advantage to not moving and putting everything you've got on attacking.


    Quote Originally Posted by PEACH View Post
    It's got a good chassis and eliminates the MAD problems that Monk has, but you've still essentially got nothing but a somewhat better base weapon and some scattered defensive and mobility options (and of course a really weak save or die).
    Am I missing something ?
    How does one having all good saves + Still Mind + Wis as primary class ability + SR constitute "really weak save or die" ?
    I could give it Mettle (6th) and Improved Mettle (15th), but that would make SoS effects moot. I never went for that goal - and I definitely don't wish to give a character an insurance policy.


    Quote Originally Posted by PEACH View Post
    Plus, though monks don't really have much of a use for a swift action in combat, I really don't see the problem with letting them preset their fists or just plain ignore DR instead of being required to punch a guy. I mean, hell, if you know you're going to be facing demons, you'd damn sure know to use holy punches.
    Quote: "At the beginning of an encounter with an unknown opponent . . .".
    The idea is that Ki-Strike requires a certain level of effort.
    Just like nobody's adventuring with a bow string pulled all the time, so does a monk never maintain Ki-Strike active all the time.
    However, if a 7th level monk fights a werewolf, then at any future encounter with such creature, he could spend his first round's swift action for Ki-Strike to take effect right from the start.


    Quote Originally Posted by PEACH View Post
    Overall, it's definitely a step in the right direction, but it doesn't make it T3. T4, probably (definitely with the move+full attack built in), but I don't see it having enough utility in T3 even with the enhanced skill points.
    What other features would you suggest that would not blatantly step on others' toes ?

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Am I missing something ?
    How does one having all good saves + Still Mind + Wis as primary class ability + SR constitute "really weak save or die" ?
    I could give it Mettle (6th) and Improved Mettle (15th), but that would make SoS effects moot. I never went for that goal - and I definitely don't wish to give a character an insurance policy.
    I believe he means Quivering Palm is a very weak Save or Die.

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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    Well, if it's your aim to make it T3 I'd compare it to what I consider to be the golden standard of T3, warblade. So hopefully this version of monk is... comparable to warblade at the same level. Not just damage output but versatility. Granted warblades aren't super versatile, but they have some nice tricks built into their maneuvers. And stances are nice.

    Here's some things I see.
    • The regular monk suffers from pathetic offense and subpar defense. They get some nice defensive abilities, but not being able to use armor really takes away from them. I guess we should look at them individually.
    • The Ki Strike takes a step in improving their offense, but it's really nowhere near warblade level. A warblade will have the most powerful weapon they can have with their WBL and will be doing damaging maneuvers on top of it, and their stance might make them do more damage. Ki Strike certainly makes their fists better, but it's not enough and not fast enough compared to regular weapons. Increasing the crit range and multiplier is nice, as is having it bypass DR, but... I'd suggest having them get stuff a bit sooner (like Wis or Str to attack/damage earlier, then both earlier). I guess they can use that one amulet and enchant it up to get things like Valorous and Speed, but it's terribly expensive IIRC. You might want to make them able to enchant their fists with some floating pool of points. I did something similar in my Book of Flux (flowist is like monk). Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the fixes (especially the +1 to like disarm and stuff), but I just don't think it's bringing their damage up enough.
    • On the topic of damage, PEACH mentioned needing to move and full attack. I'm not sure this is necessary, especially since removing the alignment restriction you'd see Barb 1/Monk X for some good pounce, but... the Flurry of Blows could use some improving.
    • Yeah, they're still down on defense. Letting them wear padded armor and retain their abilities would help. That way they can enchant it up.
    • The capstone is very underwhelming. DR 10/- isn't going to do much at level 20, even if it's good against magic too. If you want to give them DR I'd give them more and sooner. I don't know what a good capstone would be, but it needs one.

    Sorry if this came off as rude or something. Just trying to help.
    My one and only handbook: My Totemist Handbook
    My one and only homebrew: Book of Flux
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    A comment on tiers, by Prime32
    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    As a DM, I deal with character death by cheering and giving a fist pump, or maybe a V-for-victory sign. I would also pat myself on the back, but I can't really reach around like that.
      /l、
    ゙(゚、 。 7
     l、゙ ~ヽ
     じしf_, )ノ

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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    There are a couple Psionic Powers that work neatly on the monk. Give him more stuff like Abundant Step.
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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    Quote Originally Posted by danzibr View Post
    A warblade will have the most powerful weapon they can have with their WBL and will be doing damaging maneuvers on top of it, and their stance might make them do more damage.
    Ok, given that:
    1. The Monk treats unarmed strike as manufactured whenever it is to its benefit
    2. The monk’s primary asset is its unarmed attack
    3. In many discussions people voted for it
    I’m quite comfortable with monks magically enhancing their unarmed attack.
    With just a tiny bit of stretch, one might allow a monk to treat his/her body as manufactured for the purposes of defense. I’m no anime lover, but just like me, you must have also lost count of the number of times where martial artists were presented to have had their bodies altered and enhanced by some kind of ritual.


    Quote Originally Posted by danzibr View Post
    Ki Strike certainly makes their fists better, but it's not enough and not fast enough compared to regular weapons. Increasing the crit range and multiplier is nice, as is having it bypass DR, but... I'd suggest having them get stuff a bit sooner (like Wis or Str to attack/damage earlier, then both earlier).
    Ok, I can’t hog the Flux concept, because it would require an entire class remake and that would miss the entire goal of this fix.
    But now that I think of it, I could probably:
    1. Make Wis-bonus Alternative a 1st level feature tacked onto Unarmed Strike (not sure if it’s not too much though).
    2. Make Wis-bonus Accumulation a 7th level feature.
    3. Make Ki-Strike count as Ghost Touch at 13th.
    That’d certainly be nice, but I’ll need some feedback on this one and it still doesn’t cover fire/cold/electric/acid/sonic/force/positive/negative damage.


    Quote Originally Posted by danzibr View Post
    On the topic of damage, PEACH mentioned needing to move and full attack. I'm not sure this is necessary, especially since removing the alignment restriction you'd see Barb 1/Monk X for some good pounce, but... the Flurry of Blows could use some improving.
    You may have to excuse me not conforming to official material, but given Pounce has no affect whatsoever before 6th level, I reject it as a 1st level feature, due to it belonging to the “cheesecake factory”. As far as I’m concerned, Lion Totem Barbarian doesn’t exist (and if it does, then Pounce is not its ACF).


    Quote Originally Posted by danzibr View Post
    The capstone is very underwhelming. DR 10/- isn't going to do much at level 20, even if it's good against magic too. If you want to give them DR I'd give them more and sooner. I don't know what a good capstone would be, but it needs one.
    Did you notice that it affects all types of damage unconditionally ?
    But I’m open to suggestions.


    Quote Originally Posted by danzibr View Post
    Sorry if this came off as rude or something. Just trying to help.
    Not at all. And thanks.

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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    I like the idea of treating their bodies as armor so they can enchant it. Yeah, that's quite good. That way if their padded armor is stolen it doesn't matter. Nice.

    As for the fire/ice/whatever, I don't think you have to do it. I mean, having your hands/knees/whatever be on fire as you pummel something is cool and all, but monks don't have to have it all. And if they can enchant their hands with some floating pool, maybe like 1/day, then they can give themselves those properties.

    Oh, I was agreeing with the not needing to give them pounce. But I do think Flurry of Blows still isn't up to snuff, relative to warblade anyway.

    Yeah, I noticed it's supposed to work on everything. So they'd be totally immune to regular magic missiles and plenty of natural damage, but still, it still seems quite weak. Especially since monks are supposed to be a combination of offense and defense using their bodies, then their capstone is the first DR they get... it sort of comes out of nowhere. I realize it's similar to the regular monk's ability, but still, seems strange.

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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    Have to say I like the direction. Also, check some of my latest tweaks. And yes, I stole your Ki Strike Enhancement Bonus.

    I think you've fully settled into Tier 4, which IMO isn't a bad place for a non maneuver Melee character to be. Getting to Tier 3 may be difficult and isn't just a matter of scaling numbers.

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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    Ok, I need some feedbacks.

    Looking at the Thief-Acrobat, there are 4 class features that seem appropriate for my Monk:
    - Mercurial Charge: 5th
    - Dedicated Evasion: 6th
    - Power Slide: 9th
    - Shadow Tumble: 12th (will still be called “Abundant Step”). If this is too much, I guess I could start Abundant Step at #3/day.

    Also, +2 perfection bonus to all ability scores at level 20 seems appropriate to me.

    Also note to myself to allow monks to magically enhance their own bodies.

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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    I was having this idea of an alternative description for Abundant Step and I want you people to tell me what you think of it.


    Abundant Step (Su)
    By 12th level, a monk has learned the secret of magically slipping between spaces as part of her movement.
    The distance that a monk can cover in this fashion cannot exceed twice her current movement speed.
    For each 5ft traveled in such manner, access to this ability is denied for 1 round.

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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    I believe he means Quivering Palm is a very weak Save or Die.
    What tweak would you suggest that would not be OP ?

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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    Seriously, you could just make it 1/encounter, and it wouldn't be imbalanced.
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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    Made some serious enhancements and additions.

    Summary of changes:
    - Better AC progression (thank’s ZMan). This is as far as I’m gonna push it.
    - Improved offensive capabilities (mostly Ki-Strike)
    - 4 new features: Dedicated Dodge, Mercurial Charge, Tampered Body, Block and Slide.
    - Abundant Step redefined.
    - Quivering Palm significantly improved.
    - Perfect Self: Added +2 perfection increase to all ability scores.


    Please tell me what you people think of it now.

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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    No full BAB?

    The main issue with FoB is that as a mobile combatant it is a bad feature. If you are moving and attacking you can not use Flurry of Blows.
    So you want to give it on a standard action attack, or make it a different feature. Really, it would be cool to hand out

    Also, I am sad to see the lack of monk weapon support(besides the small ranged support). I have always wanted to do cool things with the Ebberon monk weapon feats.
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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    No full BAB?

    The main issue with FoB is that as a mobile combatant it is a bad feature. If you are moving and attacking you can not use Flurry of Blows.
    So you want to give it on a standard action attack, or make it a different feature. Really, it would be cool to hand out

    Also, I am sad to see the lack of monk weapon support(besides the small ranged support). I have always wanted to do cool things with the Ebberon monk weapon feats.
    He modified Flurry of Blows to work as a Standard, Charge, or Full Attack. He has all normal Monk weapons, plus two more. May not be enough weapons, but it's a start.

    Nosi, I like the count as one handed/two handed addition to avoid penalties to special attacks, it's something I overlooked.
    Last edited by Zman; 2012-12-31 at 01:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zman View Post
    He has all normal Monk weapons, plus two more. May not be enough weapons, but it's a start.
    I didn't give monks bows because they kinda ruin the image of the mobile striker that reaches her targets everywhere.
    As levels progress, my Monk simply doesn't need bows.
    Furthermore, I'd have a hard time explaining FoB applied to bow-firing. If you can't flurry with it, then it shouldn't be inherently a Monk weapon.

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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    I've added 4 new features:
    - Touching The Ripples (14th)
    - Retributive Flurry (15th)
    - Boundless Reach (16th)
    - Temporal Ki Surge (18th)

    Also moved Foresight to level 19.

    As far as the concept goes, this class is complete, but I'd still like to know what the other homebrewers think of it and if something requires changes, so please share your thoughts.

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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    Oh god. Tampered Body needs to be fixed. Put Sizing on it... you now have a Monk who can alter the size of their body at will.

    Perhaps add in a line stating that Monks cannot change their size category through this?
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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSerpent View Post
    Oh god. Tampered Body needs to be fixed. Put Sizing on it... you now have a Monk who can alter the size of their body at will.

    Perhaps add in a line stating that Monks cannot change their size category through this?
    I'm not sure what you mean. Could you please explain ?

    The primary intent was that the monk may treat her own skin as armor for the purpose of enhancements.
    What's the loophole here ?

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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    They could count their body as a weapon(Monk unarmed strike supports this), and apply the sizing property to it... which allows a wielder to freely change the size of the weapon.

    So they could totaly argue that they can freely size themselves at will.
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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    Sizing doesn't work like that.

    Why?

    Because size categories only go up to Collosal. Collosal+ if you are playing with the Epic Handbook.

    Anything larger is not rule supported.

    So, yeah, the monk could increase themselves to Collosal+ size (which is excessively large, anyway.)

    I'd be more worried about the monk reducing themselves to the size of a grain of rice; why have a Rogue when the monk can walk through cracks in the door?

    I'm about to rewrite most weapon properties to get rid of bull**** like this, which I should be done with... in a few months (there are about 250 weapon properties in all the D&D books. And those are just the official ones.)

    So, you might want to put in a note that increasing the size of your unarmed strike doesn't increase your size, basically limiting it to increasing a size or two, at most (or making Sizing completely useless, but thems the breaks.)
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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    This has about as much claim to being "the" monk fix as any.

    Out of curiosity, why is the Soulknife weaker than the monk, and why are they both weaker than, say, Commoner or Aristocrat?
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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    Out of curiosity, why is the Soulknife weaker than the monk, and why are they both weaker than, say, Commoner or Aristocrat?
    Well, a soul knife spends 20 levels getting a sword on par with what they could buy, and getting some bonus damage while faving 3/4 BAB on a attack based class. The Monk at least offers some nice defensive abilities and bonuses for their 20 levels of melee combat and 3/4 BAB.
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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    Well, a soul knife spends 20 levels getting a sword on par with what they could buy, and getting some bonus damage while faving 3/4 BAB on a attack based class. The Monk at least offers some nice defensive abilities and bonuses for their 20 levels of melee combat and 3/4 BAB.
    well, except that Soul Knife also gives you a class feature that is magnificent for prestiging with. Where as monk doesnt really get anything, other then fists which are pretty bad.
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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    This has about as much claim to being "the" monk fix as any.
    Well, ATM it's not so much a claim as a goal (notice the question mark).

    I'm aiming for a fix that will:
    1. Tier-3
    2. Give the Warblade a serious run for its money.
    3. Remain as close as possible to the core Monk - in both mechanics and spirit, and yet, at the same time, fix & elevate everything that requires fixing & elevating in the core Monk.
    4. Keep things relatively simple, with as little amount of daily-exhaustible class powers as possible.
    5. Make players think long and hard before they consider exiting the class for PrC-ing.

    When I'm convinced that I got there - then it will be a claim.


    Btw, I've added a clause that prevents problematic enhancements such as Sizing.

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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    While I must admit that the title (question mark and all) did strike me as a bit presumptuous at first blush, you have really accomplished something here.

    With that said, I suppose that I do have some thoughts to add:
    1. As bobthe6th has put forward, I'm kind of surprised that this class doesn't get full BAB as quite a few other monk fixes do. While it may lead to a chassis that seems a bit overwhelming, it still seems odd not to give a front-liner (seeing as this class doesn't quite seem to be a skirmisher) full BAB. Is there any reason for this?
    2. One thing that you may want to consider is that the ability to enchant yourself as a magical weapon/armor kind of overlaps with the improved AC bonus and the enhancement bonus from Ki Strike (Stacking for really big numbers for the former and overlapping for the latter). I would personally suggest getting rid of the "extra" +5 weapon/armor bonus that you're granting through class features and simply letting the monk enchant themselves early on (preying to ancestors, channeling their ki, modifying their bodies, etc) as if possessing craft magic arms and armor (limited to their body and unarmed strikes), maybe without paying XP costs to do so. Though the monk would have to "buy" their enhancements with money (meaning that actual rewards would have to be sold for half price), the enhancements would also be crafted for half-price, kind of evening things out.
    3. While Dedicated Dodge and Block-and-Slide are indeed martial-artsy, I'm not sure that I see a direct need for either ability. While its true that they provide active defensive options (as opposed the the more passive abilities) that are more easily compared directly to counters from ToB (either or both of which may have been things on your checklist), neither ability truly seems to fill some need that the monk had before. This isn't necessarily bad, mind you, but I'm curious about how you came to include them.
    4. Boundless Reach seems a bit confusing as Abundant Step doesn't mention anything about being stopped by walls of force and the like. Was the intention for Abundant Step that you simply move faster than people can perceive instead of actually teleporting?
    5. A couple of restrictions on class features seem a bit odd from afar, especially with your stated goal of avoiding such recharge periods. First, as mentioned in previous posts, Quivering Palm isn't the most threatening of save-or-dies. As such, keeping any such restriction on uses per day (instead of, say, active quivering palms or uses per encounter) seems a bit odd. The original monk used similar restrictions, true, but they didn't even work too well back then. Looking at Temporal Ki Surge, an hourly recharge rate is pretty unique and I'm not sure why the traditional encounter recharge wouldn't work (unless you are simply avoiding encounter recharges because they are being done to death). Finally, for foresight, you can probably make the effect continual.
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    Default Re: Monk Fix – could this finally be it ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    While I must admit that the title (question mark and all) did strike me as a bit presumptuous at first blush, you have really accomplished something here.
    Thanks. Coming from you, that means a lot.


    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    1. As bobthe6th has put forward, I'm kind of surprised that this class doesn't get full BAB as quite a few other monk fixes do. While it may lead to a chassis that seems a bit overwhelming, it still seems odd not to give a front-liner (seeing as this class doesn't quite seem to be a skirmisher) full BAB. Is there any reason for this?
    With Wis-bonus to all attack rolls & damage results, and with the ability to gain defensive and offensive magical enhancements, it seems to me like the Monk catches up on the overall damage output.
    Also, this class has quite a few benefits that no other class offers.
    I didn't want to create a class that would make the Warblade seem weakling or my Warrior obsolete.
    This Monk is meant to play with the big boys in their sandbox, not drive them home sobbing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    2. One thing that you may want to consider is that the ability to enchant yourself as a magical weapon/armor kind of overlaps with the improved AC bonus and the enhancement bonus from Ki Strike (Stacking for really big numbers for the former and overlapping for the latter). I would personally suggest getting rid of the "extra" +5 weapon/armor bonus that you're granting through class features ...
    Good call. I missed that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    ... and simply letting the monk enchant themselves early on (preying to ancestors, channeling their ki, modifying their bodies, etc) as if possessing craft magic arms and armor (limited to their body and unarmed strikes), maybe without paying XP costs to do so.
    Wonderful idea.

    EDIT:
    There should be some level-associated limit on how many powers a monk can accumulate in such manner. Do you have anything in mind for this ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    Though the monk would have to "buy" their enhancements with money (meaning that actual rewards would have to be sold for half price), the enhancements would also be crafted for half-price, kind of evening things out.
    Maybe I'm missing something here, but how does [No XP cost + 1/2 price] constitute "evening things up" ?
    Don't get me wrong, I love the idea. Since a monk can never sell such enhancements, no XP does even things up, but why 1/2 price ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    3. While Dedicated Dodge and Block-and-Slide are indeed martial-artsy, I'm not sure that I see a direct need for either ability. While its true that they provide active defensive options (as opposed the the more passive abilities) that are more easily compared directly to counters from ToB (either or both of which may have been things on your checklist), neither ability truly seems to fill some need that the monk had before. This isn't necessarily bad, mind you, but I'm curious about how you came to include them.
    As mentioned in post #12 (not that I expected you to keep track), I've encountered the Thief-Acrobat a few days ago.
    They are very martial-artsy and the 4 abilities I mentioned seemed very appropriate.
    Furthermore, even IRL, martial arts masters that focus all their attention on avoiding blows are incredibly difficult to hit.
    Plus, Block-and-Slide is something I've seen repeatedly in anime – and given 9th level characters are not exactly human anymore, it seemed like a nice ability for Wuxia lovers without stretching credibility too much.


    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    4. Boundless Reach seems a bit confusing as Abundant Step doesn't mention anything about being stopped by walls of force and the like. Was the intention for Abundant Step that you simply move faster than people can perceive instead of actually teleporting?
    Abundant Step emulates D-Door, which is blocked by barriers that cross into the ethereal & astral.
    While my remake is no D-Door, it only seems reasonable to me that when just learning the secret of phase-porting, a monk doesn't get the power to ignore the higher end barriers. That comes later


    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    5. A couple of restrictions on class features seem a bit odd from afar, especially with your stated goal of avoiding such recharge periods. First, as mentioned in previous posts, Quivering Palm isn't the most threatening of save-or-dies. As such, keeping any such restriction on uses per day (instead of, say, active quivering palms or uses per encounter) seems a bit odd. The original monk used similar restrictions, true, but they didn't even work too well back then. Looking at Temporal Ki Surge, an hourly recharge rate is pretty unique and I'm not sure why the traditional encounter recharge wouldn't work (unless you are simply avoiding encounter recharges because they are being done to death).
    That.
    Plus, encounter time is not defined well enough to coincide with the body's need to recover.
    Plus, in martial arts films – feature as well as animated – "Death Touch" was always a dramatic moment. It seems inappropriate to me for a monk to just spam death effects on every encounter. It certainly seems inappropriate for a monk to have more death effects usage than the most dedicated necromancer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    Finally, for foresight, you can probably make the effect continual.
    I thought of it, but it seems quite a lot.
    I'm no balance expert when it comes to near-epic levels – which is why I need the feedbacks.
    Still uncertain here.

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