afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

[willpell]

You're holding to this bizarre and incorrect view that good-aligned creatures should never have quarrel with good-aligned (or neutral-aligned) PCs, when in fact that's not the case.

"Quarrel" certainly, but in a Good way, where violence is slow to break out and quick to be resolved before anyone gets hurt. Even with type-alpha personalities like dragons and gods, they should be soft-hearted and sentimental, always wishing there could be a better way and taking the first chance to work one out, reasonably confident that this isn't a trap to lure them into showing a fatal weakness because that would be evil. Most dangerous games and to-the-death blood feuds and similar idiocy is the province of Neutrality at best, IMO; I think the as-written setting doesn't describe "Good, Neutral and Evil" so much as "Slight Evil, Substantial Evil, and OMGPLEASENOOOOO". While what I consider Good does exist, it condemns itself by refusing to take a stand against corruption in its fellows, and often the Exalted heroes are more morally questionable than the merely Good oens.

The Free League don't even consider themselves an affiliation, but their pursuit of good demands freedom. Limiting freedom, to an Indep, limits good, and they would fight to remain independent and keep their right to choose. Is that evil of them?

Not Evil necessarily (though possibly a bit pigheaded), but it should depend on how they go about acting on that desire. If they fight other Good forces, they should be striking for nonlethal and demanding surrender when their victory is obviously inevitable.

Are they evil for treating good beings who go against their grain the same way as evil beings?

Yep, nongood at least and very easily stepping over the line into evil if they don't watch it. If their message is "join us or die" they're the very definition of a tyrant, who are LE or very nearly so. Though if they've got entire planets of LG Mind Flayers to point to, they probably don't need to resort to that kind of jack-booted thuggery to obtain cooperation anyway. They could get better results just by displaying economic dominance and magnificent social harmony. That's exactly what Good at its best can be about - winning the peace so there need never be a war.

If that's not the way you want to play, that's fine, but I don't need to hear about how you feel that's not right. You have a different thread for that. Go there.

Right, I've said my piece, I'll be done.

[afroakuma]

Would "Playing the Good card" be along the lines of

"We're both good beings, right? Which means we both have respect for life, right? Doesn't "respect for life" demand we avoid killing each other?"

And variations thereof, yeah.

"Quarrel" certainly, but in a Good way, where violence is slow to break out and quick to be resolved before anyone gets hurt.

...

Now you see, forum rules prohibit me from giving the examples I really want to, so I'm just going to point at the planet you're standing on and call it a day.

Even with type-alpha personalities like dragons and gods, they should be soft-hearted and sentimental

Right, so, you and I are now done talking about this. There is zero merit to this statement, and it points to you having a context for this that's completely out in left field. I'm not going to engage you on your beliefs.

[the_archduke]

To a god or an ancient dragon, the average mortal traipsing around their home is roughly equivalent to an ant wandering around yours. Is squishing the ant, who will only bring more ants if you don't take care of it, an Evil act?

Perhaps there would be some god who feels that they should give the ant a stern talking to and whisk it away without hurting it, but I can't imagine that would be the common response.

[123456789blaaa]

What is the exact definition of "devil"?

[willpell]

Now you see, forum rules prohibit me from giving the examples I really want to, so I'm just going to point at the planet you're standing on and call it a day.

Oh I know exactly what you're talking about, and my answer would simply be that such organizations claim to be Good, and many of their members are, but the leadership is LN at best and more likely LE. It's not like we get Detect spells, so good actors can get away with it.

To a god or an ancient dragon, the average mortal traipsing around their home is roughly equivalent to an ant wandering around yours. Is squishing the ant, who will only bring more ants if you don't take care of it, an Evil act?

Humans cannot speak to an ant in ant-language. World of difference.

[herrhauptmann]

What is the exact definition of "devil"?

In the game, (not the real world stuff others are arguing) I'd say:

1. A Lawful Evil outsider.
2. A resident of the 9 hells of Baator.
3. Devils are referred to as Baatezu and share certain traits. The word Baatezu seems to be trademarked (like the demonic Tanar'ri), and not present on the SRD.
   
   • immunity to fire/poison,
   • resistance to acid and cold,
   • the ability to see in darkness, even the deeper darkness spell.
   • Telepathy
   • The ability to summon others of their kind.
   • Devil breeds include:
     
     1. Lemure
     2. Imp
     3. Bearded devil
     4. Chain devil
     5. Hellcat
     6. Erinyes
     7. Bone Devil
     8. Barbed devil
     9. Ice devil
     10. Horned devil
     11. Pit Fiend
4. There may be other species of devils beyond Baatezu, but would be present in other books like the Fiendish Codex.

[Zubrowka74]

Oh I know exactly what you're talking about, and my answer would simply be that such organizations claim to be Good, and many of their members are, but the leadership is LN at best and more likely LE. It's not like we get Detect spells, so good actors can get away with it.

I'll say it's more that D&D is not meant to model the real world, at least not for alignements. I read somewhere (a long time ago) that the bulk of humanity was probably all true neutral with tendencies, the extremes being rare - serial killers and such.

[AuraTwilight]

Oh I know exactly what you're talking about, and my answer would simply be that such organizations claim to be Good, and many of their members are, but the leadership is LN at best and more likely LE. It's not like we get Detect spells, so good actors can get away with it.



Humans cannot speak to an ant in ant-language. World of difference.

We have a different thread for alignment discussions. Knock it off.

[afroakuma]

Oh I know exactly what you're talking about, and my answer would simply be uninvited and unwanted.

Desist.

What is the exact definition of "devil"?

Closest I could give you would be as follows: A devil is a lawful evil outsider native to the Nine Hells of Baator possessing supernatural resistance to harm and ties to the plane itself beyond the mere fact of its existence. Devils are generally at least partially humanoid.

[Jigokuro]

Finally caught up to the rate of posting, when I started reading there was 16 pages

I have a lot of various follow up questions to things I just learned in this thread, but I'd have to skim back to remember them at this point, so I get them later. For now I have just this one new offering: How does D&D handle/interact with the outer space of material planes? There is a lot of rather conflicting info regarding this (aside from one specific setting I think). What (eventually) happens if a powerful mage flies straight up long enough, assuming he need not breath/eat/age/fear elements/etc?
Side/follow up Q: Are there any canon moons (edit*) or other celestial bodies that can be gone to by such means? Is their a Neil Armstrong of D&D?

Sorry for all the parenthesis (I like to clarify things.)

P.S. While this is not necessarily a planar question, I suspect it may have a planar answer.

*Edit: Remembered as I was trying in vain to fell asleep that low-light vision mentions specifically moonlight in the PHB. So they are a thing that was planned for at least.
New follow-up that isn't planar but is basically yes/no: could you terraform a patch of moon with a few walls of force, a magical air source, and some seeds + a cast of plant growth? Due to the difference in what the sun is, iirc (is it different? some thing to do with either gods or the PEP?), it could be argued that the moon isn't scorching hot, otherwise there'd need to be a way to stop the plants, and yourself, from burning... I'm very tired.

[afroakuma]

How does D&D handle/interact with the outer space of material planes? There is a lot of rather conflicting info regarding this (aside from one specific setting I think). What (eventually) happens if a powerful mage flies straight up long enough, assuming he need not breath/eat/age/fear elements/etc?

D&D space is Ptolemaic space. Your basic solar system has celestial bodies surrounded by the empty void of wildspace, which is what your mage in question would encounter if he went up far enough. If he kept going for a long time, he would eventually bump into a solid obstacle: the crystal sphere, a boundary delineating one solar system and the magical properties governing it from the aetheric medium beyond.

If you can pass through the crystal sphere (by finding one of the natural portals through it), you will find yourself in a glowing, starry prismatic haze. This is the phlogiston, otherwise known as the Flow. Phlogiston is a dangerously flammable quintessence that moves in grand currents around the universe. If you can enter a suitable Flow river and keep yourself steady on it, it will eventually propel you to another crystal sphere, containing another solar system.

Of course, arcane flight is a terrible way to do this; the distances involved are preposterous. For this reason, you'll be wanting a spelljammer, a great magical ship specially designed to sail the Flow and wildspace.

Side/follow up Q: Are there any canon moons (edit*) or other celestial bodies that can be gone to by such means? Is their a Neil Armstrong of D&D?

Don't know about a Neil Armstrong, but the moons of at least the Radiant Triangle (Greyspace, Krynnspace and Realmspace) are quite accessible by such means and have been documented.

New follow-up that isn't planar but is basically yes/no: could you terraform a patch of moon with a few walls of force, a magical air source, and some seeds + a cast of plant growth?

You'd need to ensure there was an appropriate temperature, too, and that the moon's soil could support plant life. Even then... probably not.

[Jigokuro]

D&D space is Ptolemaic space. Your basic solar system has celestial bodies surrounded by the empty void of wildspace, which is what your mage in question would encounter if he went up far enough. If he kept going for a long time, he would eventually bump into a solid obstacle: the crystal sphere, a boundary delineating one solar system and the magical properties governing it from the aetheric medium beyond.

If you can pass through the crystal sphere (by finding one of the natural portals through it), you will find yourself in a glowing, starry prismatic haze. This is the phlogiston, otherwise known as the Flow. Phlogiston is a dangerously flammable quintessence that moves in grand currents around the universe. If you can enter a suitable Flow river and keep yourself steady on it, it will eventually propel you to another crystal sphere, containing another solar system.

Of course, arcane flight is a terrible way to do this; the distances involved are preposterous. For this reason, you'll be wanting a spelljammer, a great magical ship specially designed to sail the Flow and wildspace.

OH, I actually gathered all of that in bits and pieces through out this thread, but thought it was campaign specific. Ok. I have a few follow-ups that are all (I think) short and mostly just terminology.
1) Are all material plane settings in different spheres and thus co-existent (difficulty of leaving some aside)? I think a few are demiplanes instead (ravenloft?) but the overall point is I used to think any given setting was just completely separate from any other.
2) Why are they called spelljammers? that sounds like a magic item of AMF, not a spaceship.
3) Are all crystal spheres+phlogiston collectively what make up 'The Prime Material Plane'? or is it more/less?
3.5) Is the planes that are co-terminus with the PMP c-t with the phlogiston parts as well?
4) Just how flammable? If it were like gas then the first time any part ignited the whole thing would burn away, which obviously hasn't happened. Is it explosive-but-self-containing-because-magic type flamable?

[Fable Wright]

How does Greater Teleport and Plane Shift interact with Phlogiston? Can you just Greater Teleport into a different sphere? Can you Planeshift yourself from the Astral plane onto a different Crystal Sphere of your choice?

[AuraTwilight]

You cannot teleport into or across the Phlogiston by any means, nor can you Plane Shift into it, if I recall. To interact between the Crystal Spheres and other Planes requires plane-shifting of some sort.

[TuggyNE]

2) Why are they called spelljammers? that sounds like a magic item of AMF, not a spaceship.

Windjammer + spell = spelljammer. Basically, a magical clipper ship.

[Clistenes]

You cannot teleport into or across the Phlogiston by any means, nor can you Plane Shift into it, if I recall. To interact between the Crystal Spheres and other Planes requires plane-shifting of some sort.

But at least in old Planescape you could Plane Shift from your Crystal Sphere to an Outer Plane and from there to another Crystal Sphere.

[afroakuma]

1) Are all material plane settings in different spheres and thus co-existent (difficulty of leaving some aside)? I think a few are demiplanes instead (ravenloft?) but the overall point is I used to think any given setting was just completely separate from any other.

It's suggested that most Material Plane settings are in their own sphere somewhere in the the phlogiston. Some settings are not explicitly connected and have cosmologies odd enough that they are more likely to be alternate Material Planes than other worlds on the same Material Plane.

Ravenloft is a demiplane, and it's likely that Mystara, Eberron and Cerilia are alternate Material Planes. Kara-Tur and Al Qadim are continents of Toril.

2) Why are they called spelljammers? that sounds like a magic item of AMF, not a spaceship.

Cause it sounds cool.

3) Are all crystal spheres+phlogiston collectively what make up 'The Prime Material Plane'? or is it more/less?

Essentially.

3.5) Is the planes that are co-terminus with the PMP c-t with the phlogiston parts as well?

No.

4) Just how flammable? If it were like gas then the first time any part ignited the whole thing would burn away, which obviously hasn't happened. Is it explosive-but-self-containing-because-magic type flamable?

Phlogiston is like oxygen in that you'll run out of fuel before you run out of gas. It's like hydrogen in that it flash-burns. And it's like piranhas in that it hates you and would really like to chew your face off. A candle flame brought into the phlogiston will instantly explode, dealing 1d6 fire damage in a four-inch diameter sphere. A lantern will bloom into a one-foot diameter fireball dealing 3d6 fire damage. Fire spells and spell-like abilities have their range shrunk down to personal, and are maximized, empowered and widened.

How does Greater Teleport and Plane Shift interact with Phlogiston? Can you just Greater Teleport into a different sphere? Can you Planeshift yourself from the Astral plane onto a different Crystal Sphere of your choice?

The phlogiston has no connections to other planes. When you're in the Flow, you can't use ethereal, shadow or astral connections of any sort. And for the third or fourth time now, you cannot greater teleport through the walls of a crystal sphere. Since you can plane shift from the Astral Plane to the Material Plane, and since you can choose your destination with plane shift, you can use it to reach other crystal spheres, provided you are aware of your destination.

[Coidzor]

The Order of the Planes-Militant is objectively a "good" organization, but they militantly and often viciously attempt to conscript other good creatures to Lawful Good. They're quick to distance themselves from extremists who obviously cross the line, but do nothing about (and do not think about) the invisible harm they cause.

The Free League don't even consider themselves an affiliation, but their pursuit of good demands freedom. Limiting freedom, to an Indep, limits good, and they would fight to remain independent and keep their right to choose. Is that evil of them? Is it evil of the Order to demand that the Free League conform to their definition of good?

The Harmonium thinks of itself as a good organization, though it's closer to law. They, too, conflict with the Free League, and they have the best of intentions, working with other bodies and philosophies to protect and enforce. Are they evil for treating good beings who go against their grain the same way as evil beings?

Yes, No, Yes, and Yes. The Harmonium has always seemed to be an evil organization that was lawful neutral by dint of authorial fiat and inertial incompetence more than anything else.

[willpell]

Ravenloft is a demiplane, and it's likely that Mystara, Eberron and Cerilia are alternate Material Planes. Kara-Tur and Al Qadim are continents of Toril.

Cerilia? Never heard of that one.

Yes, No, Yes, and Yes. The Harmonium has always seemed to be an evil organization that was lawful neutral by dint of authorial fiat and inertial incompetence more than anything else.

Wasn't me this time, AA....

[afroakuma]

The Harmonium has always seemed to be an evil organization that was lawful neutral by dint of authorial fiat and inertial incompetence more than anything else.

Hanlon's razor.

Cerilia? Never heard of that one.

Birthright setting. It's not one of the more famous ones, but it was official back in the day.

[willpell]

Hanlon's Birthright setting. It's not one of the more famous ones, but it was official back in the day.

Wikipedia gives the name of the Birthright planet as Aebrynis. Cerilia appears to be the name of its main continent (as with Faerun and Toril).

I knew the name Aebrynis from before, when I had a project to document every named planet in D&D lore that I could find (hence my raising an eyebrow at an unfamiliar name; I was hoping I'd missed one). This was also back when I found out that the world of Council of Wyrms had never gotten a name, a fact that still bugs me.

[Occasional Sage]

2) Why are they called spelljammers? that sounds like a magic item of AMF, not a spaceship.

Also, they are powered by harnessing a caster (willing or not) into a minor artifact and draining spell slots as "gas".

This was also back when I found out that the world of Council of Wyrms had never gotten a name, a fact that still bugs me.

Bob.

[afroakuma]

Wikipedia gives the name of the Birthright planet as Aebrynis. Cerilia appears to be the name of its main continent (as with Faerun and Toril).

Yes, I know. Why are you telling me this?

This was also back when I found out that the world of Council of Wyrms had never gotten a name, a fact that still bugs me.

Council of Wyrms was intended to be a campaign option; DMs were allowed to place Io's Blood on an already existing Material Plane world as a distant archipelago. Apocryphally, Io's Blood exists on an otherwise unknown Material Plane world in a sphere called Iospace, located on the Arcane Outer Flow.

Also, they are powered by harnessing a caster (willing or not) into a minor artifact and draining spell slots as "gas".

Well, the normal ones do.

[Yora]

Is the idea of Concil of Wyrms similar to the Dragons in Eberron?

[Larkas]

Quick question: are overdeities relevant only to a single Crystal Sphere?

[willpell]

Yes, I know. Why are you telling me this?

My apologies, I thought I remembered you saying Cerilia was a planet, but you said it was a plane (which isn't technically accurate either but I knew what you meant by it, before forgetting that had been what you said). Just me savoring the taste of my own foot again; seems to be a talent, sorry about that.

Council of Wyrms was intended to be a campaign option; DMs were allowed to place Io's Blood on an already existing Material Plane world as a distant archipelago.

Ah! Like Ghostwalk in 3E, yes? Rather a good idea, that.... (stifles extended digression about GW's pantheon as related to other settings)

Is the idea of Concil of Wyrms similar to the Dragons in Eberron?

Not really. I haven't seen CoW myself, but from its Wikipedia article it was a box set which focused around roleplaying dragons in a more political-type game, where humans were generally not around except as invading enemies. Not much resemblance to the Eberron portrayal that I can see, beyond making dragons complex schemers more than rampaging destroyers. I think the chromatic=evil, metallic=good rule was applied in CoW, unlike in Eberron, but don't quote me on that.

If there was one thing that would make me want to go to the effort of learning 2E rules, it would be getting my hands on CoW and having to figure out how to make it work. (Ravenloft and Planescape in some order are reasons 2 and 3, and less compelling between them.)

[afroakuma]

Is the idea of Concil of Wyrms similar to the Dragons in Eberron?

No no... in Council of Wyrms, you had the opportunity to roleplay as dragons, as well as half-dragons and draconic servitors. Despite the dragons all being officially united under a semi-democratic government (the Council of Wyrms), there were still clan intrigues, territory clashes, ancient blood feuds and dragonslayers. A modern update including Xorvintaal would be... *mutters and walks off lost in thought and plans*

Quick question: are overdeities relevant only to a single Crystal Sphere?

Yes. Overdeities do not have a planar presence per se, though gods who operate within their crystal spheres are subject to their rules and power. No overdeity has relevance even an inch beyond that. Of the two known overdeities, both are referred to by the gods beneath them as originating from "beyond."

Ah! Like Ghostwalk in 3E, yes? Rather a good idea, that.... (stifles extended digression about GW's pantheon as related to other settings)

Ghostwalk was similar, yes, though a bit more difficult to integrate. It just doesn't click on some worlds (Forgotten Realms being a big one).

[Zubrowka74]

Of the two known overdeities, both are referred to by the gods beneath them as originating from "beyond."

Two ? Ao and .... ?

[herrhauptmann]

Two ? Ao and .... ?

Lady of Pain?
I don't think she's an actual deity, but she seems to run Sigil like one. Particularly if even deities are wary of crossing her on her own turf.

[willpell]

Ghostwalk was similar, yes, though a bit more difficult to integrate. It just doesn't click on some worlds (Forgotten Realms being a big one).

I was thinking that myself actually, but managed to refrain from going off on a tangent for once. Anything to say about all the yuan-ti and their demiplane of Coil while we're on the subject? (It's a stretch, I know, just throwing it out there.)