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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    This fix is part of a larger project and bringing the classes into better balance centered around Tier 2-4. See my Homebrew Secrion in my Signature

    *Im aware that my fixes will not take the Tier 1s out of Tier 1, but should take an edge off their power. There will also be some changes to problematic spells as well. I'm pretty happy with the direction that this fix is going, it is shaping up nicer than the Wizard was. Needs Special Abilities yet, but the core change to spellcasting is done.

    Summary of Changes
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    The Cleric is a Powerhouse and definitely Tier 1. I'm looking at bringing them down a notch by removing access to 9th level spells, making them rely on Domain spells more, and giving them some actual class abilities. Also, giving them more and better skills.

    Edit: The Cleric is now a spontaneous caster. It never made sense for a cleric to request divine intervention in advance. The Cleric has now been Merged with the Favored Soul.



    Cleric
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th

    1st|+0|+2|+0|+2|Turn or rebuke undead|3|0+2|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

    2nd|+1|+3|+0|+3||4|1+2|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

    3rd|+2|+3|+1|+3||4|1+2|0+2|—|—|—|—|—|—

    4th|+3|+4|+1|+4||5|2+2|1+2|—|—|—|—|—|—

    5th|+3|+4|+1|+4|Domain Channeling|5|2+2|1+2|0+2|—|—|—|—|—

    6th|+4|+5|+2|+5|Bonus Feat|5|2+2|2+2|1+2|—|—|—|—|—

    7th|+5|+5|+2|+5||6|3+2|2+2|1+2|—|—|—|—|—

    8th|+6/+1|+6|+2|+6||6|3+2|2+2|2+2|0+2|—|—|—|—

    9th|+6/+1|+6|+3|+6||6|3+2|3+2|2+2|1+2|—|—|—|—

    10th|+7/+2|+7|+3|+7|Sanctuary|6|3+2|3+2|2+2|1+2|—|—|—|—

    11th|+8/+3|+7|+3|+7||6|4+2|3+2|3+2|2+2|0+2|—|—|—

    12th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+8|Bonus Feat|6|4+2|3+2|3+2|2+2|1+2|—|—|—

    13th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+8||6|4+2|4+2|3+2|2+2|1+2|—|—|—

    14th|+10/+5|+9|+4|+9|Lesser Sainhood|6|4+2|4+2|3+2|3+2|2+2|0+2|—|—

    15th|+11/+6/+1|+9|+5|+9||6|4+2|4+2|4+2|3+2|2+2|1+2|—|—

    16th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Sainthood|6|5+2|4+2|4+2|3+2|2+2|1+2|—|—

    17th|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10||6|5+2|4+2|4+2|3+2|3+2|2+2|0+2|—

    18th|+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Bonus Feat|6|5+2|5+2|4+2|4+2|3+2|2+2|1+2|—

    19th|+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11||6|5+2|5+2|4+2|4+2|3+2|2+2|1+2|—

    20th|+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Miracle|6|5+2|5+2|5+2|4+2|4+2|3+2|2+2|0+2

    [/table]


    Spells Known

    {table]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th

    1st|4|2|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

    2nd|5|2|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

    3rd|5|3|1|—|—|—|—|—|—

    4th|6|3|2|—|—|—|—|—|—

    5th|6|4|2|1|—|—|—|—|—

    6th|7|4|3|2|—|—|—|—|—

    7th|7|5|3|2|—|—|—|—|—

    8th|8|5|4|3|1|—|—|—|—

    9th|8|6|4|3|2|—|—|—|—

    10th|9|6|5|4|2|—|—|—|—

    11th|9|7|5|4|3|1|—|—|—

    12th|9|7|6|5|3|2|—|—|—

    13th|9|8|6|5|4|2|—|—|—

    14th|9|8|7|6|4|3|1|—|—

    15th|9|9|7|6|5|3|2|—|—

    16th|9|9|8|7|5|4|2|—|—

    17th|9|9|8|7|6|4|3|1|—

    18th|9|9|9|8|6|5|3|2|—

    19th|9|9|9|8|7|5|4|2|—

    20th|9|9|9|9|7|6|4|3|1

    [/table]



    Alignment: Any (Deity)
    Hit Die: 1d8

    Class Skills:
    Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge(arcana) (Int), Knowledge(history) (Int), Knowledge(religion) (Int), Knowledge(the planes) (Int), Listen(Wis), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot(Wis).
    Skill Points at 1st Level:(4 + Int modifier) Χ 4
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+ Int modifier

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, with all types of armor (light, medium, and heavy), and with shields (except tower shields).

    A cleric who chooses the War domain receives the Weapon Focus feat related to his deity’s weapon as a bonus feat. He also receives the appropriate Martial Weapon Proficiency feat as a bonus feat, if the weapon falls into that category.

    Aura (Ex): A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity’s alignment (see the detect evil spell for details). Clerics who don’t worship a specific deity but choose the Chaotic, Evil, Good, or Lawful domain have a similarly powerful aura of the corresponding alignment.

    Spells: A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. However, his alignment may restrict him from casting certain spells opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard must (see below).

    To learn or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a cleric’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the cleric’s Wisdom modifier.

    Like other spellcasters, a cleric can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Cleric. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score. A cleric also gets one domain spell of each spell level for each Domain he can cast, starting at 1st level.

    Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can recover spells.

    Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells: A cleric’s deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to his deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain.

    If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The chosen domains should be a valid choice which closely resembles domain options given to clerics which follow dieties.The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

    A Cleric's selection of spells is extremely limited. A Cleric begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new Cleric level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Cleric's Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a Cleric knows is not affected by his Wisdom score; the numbers on Table: Cleric's Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the Cleric spell list.

    Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power. The cleric gets the granted powers of both the domains selected. With access to two domain spells at a given spell level, a cleric can castboth each day in his domain spell slots. A Cleric also adds his Domain spells to his list of Known Spells. Only a single casting of each Domain Spell can be used for each Domain slot, though a cleric is free to use it normal spell slots to cast Domain spells as they have been added to the Cleric's list of Spells Known.

    Spontaneous Casting: A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing, restoration, and bless spells adding all cure spells(a cure spell is one with "cure" in its name) as well as all restoration spells(a restoration spell is one with "restoration" in its name), bless, and bless water to their list of Known Spells.

    An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric of an evil deity) instead adds all inflict spells (an inflict spell is one with “inflict” in its name) as well as Bane, Curse Water, and Bestow Curse to his list of Known Spells.

    A cleric who is neither good nor evil and whose deity is neither good nor evil can gain spells in the same fashion as a Good or Evil Cleric(player’s choice). Once the player makes this choice, it cannot be reversed. This choice also determines whether the cleric turns or commands undead (see below).


    Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

    Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su): Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead).

    A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) instead rebukes or commands such creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an evil cleric. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells (see above).

    A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. A cleric with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) gets a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.

    Domain Channeling

    At 5th level the Cleric may now spontaneously channel Domain Spells in addition to their normal spell allotment.


    Bonus Feats

    At 6th, 12th, and 18th levels the Cleric receives a bonus Divine feat. The Cleric must meet the prerequisites as normal for these feats.


    Sanctuary

    At 10th level the Cleric radiates a divine aura protecting them from harm. The functions as the Sanctuary spell with a few differences. Any act by the cleric which would negate the Sanctuary spell instead lowers the protection until the start of the Clerics next turn. The DC is equal to 11+ the Clerics Wisdom Modifier. If the Sanctary protection is removed or dispelled in any way it is automatically restarted at the start of the Cleric's next turn.


    Lesser Sainthood

    At 14th the Cleric is a testament to the ideals of their God. They may choose to begin gaining the Saint Template with one exception, they do not suffer Level Adjustment. Instead, they take a 15% experience poin penalty from this point forward. If the Character already has the Saint template this ability has no effect.

    Abilities gained with Lesser Sainthood:

    DR 10/Evil if Good, DR/Good if Evil, DR5/Goood and DR5/Evil in Nuetral

    Abilities: Modify the base creature as follows: Cha +2.

    Tongues (Su): A saint can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell cast by a 14th-level cleric. This ability is always active.

    Spell-Like Abilities: At will - guidance, resistance, virtue, and bless. An Evil Cleric does not gain Bless, but gains Bane instead. A Neutral Saint gains their choice of either. A saint's caster level is equal to its Hit Die total. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

    Armor Class: A saint gains an insight bonus to AC equal to the character's Wisdom bonus.


    Sainthood

    At 16th level the Cleric becomes a true Saint and the rest of the benefits of the Saint Template. with one exception, they do not suffer Level Adjustment. Instead, their experience point penalty increases to 30%. If the character already has the saint template this ability has no effect.

    Size and Type: The creature's type changes to "outsider." The saint has the native subtype. Size is unchanged.

    Holy Power (Su): The save DCs of any and all of the saint's special attacks, including spells as well as spell-like, supernatural, and extraordinary abilities, increase by +2.

    Holy Touch (Su): A saint's entire being is suffused with holy power, which likewise flows into any weapon the saint wields. A Good saint's melee attacks with any weapon (or unarmed) deal an additional 1d6 points of holy damage against evil creatures, and 1d8 points against evil undead and evil outsiders. Any evil creature that strikes a saint with a natural weapon takes holy damage as if hit by the saint's attack. An Evil Saint's Melee attacks ith any weapon(or unarmed) deal an additional 1d6 points of unholy damage against good creatures, and 1d8 against good outsiders. A Neutral saint's Melee attacks with any weapon(or unarmed) deal an additional 1d4 points of holy or unloly damage to good and evil creatures, and 1d6 against good or evil outsiders and undead.

    Fast Healing (Ex): Each round, a saint heals damage equal to half of its Hit Dice (including character levels, no a maximum of 10 points healed). if the base creature already has fast healing, use the better value.

    Immunities (Ex): A saint is immune to acid, cold, electricity, and petrification attacks.

    Keen Vision (Ex): Saints have low-light vision and 60-foot darkvision.

    Protective Aura (Su): As a free action, a saint can surround herself with a nimbus of light having a radius of 20 feet. This acts as a double-strength magic circle against evil and as a lesser globe of invulnerability both as cast by a cleric whose level equal to the saint's Hit Dice. Evil Saints surrounds themselves with a double strength magic circle against good instead of against Good. A Neutral saint surrounds themself with both a magic circle against evil and against good instead of a double strength malice circle against good or evil.

    Resistances (Ex): Saints have resistance to fire 10 and receive a +4 racial bonus on Fortitude saves against poison.

    Tongues (Su): A saint can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell cast by a 14th-level cleric. This ability is always active.

    Abilities: Modify the base creature as follows: Con +2, Wis +2, Cha +2.


    Miracle

    At 20th level the Cleric gains the ability to create a Miracle. This functions exactly as the spell, but the associated xp cost drops the Cleric one level placing them halfway to regaining their previous level for a Major use of Miracle. For instance, a 20th level Cleric who casts Miracle will now be 19th level and have an xp total placing them halfway to 20th level. The Cleric loses all benefits that were gained upon reaching 20th level, these benefits will be regained upon reaching 20th level through normal experience gain. This level loss can not be circumvented or reversed by any means short of the granting Diety's direct intervention, this includes magic items like the thought bottle.

    For a lesser use of Miracle the xp price is 1000xp which may result in level loss and is treated in the same manor as a Major use. A Minor Miracle can be used once per day.


    Bonus Languages: A cleric’s bonus language options include Celestial, Abyssal, and Infernal (the languages of good, chaotic evil, and lawful evil outsiders, respectively). These choices are in addition to the bonus languages available to the character because of his race.

    Ex-Clerics
    A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

    ACF's
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    Champion of Good or Evil
    Level: 1st
    Loses: Turn or Rebuke Undead
    Gains: A Good Cleric gains Smite Evil as a Paladin of the Same level, Aura of Good.
    An Evil Cleric gains Smite Good as a Paladin of the Same level, Aura of Evil. Both function the the same as their good aligned counterparts substituting Good for Evil and vice versa.

    A Neutral Cleric cannot choose to take this ACF.


    Cloistered Cleric

    Level: 1st
    Changes: d6 Hit Dice, Poor Base Attack Bonus, loses Armor and Shield Proficiencies

    Gains: One additional Spell per level and one additional spell known per spell level, 6 skill Points per level(instead of +4).


    Favored Soul

    Level: 1st
    Loses: Turn or Rebuke Undead, Wisdom as Casting Stat
    Gains: Charisma as Casting Stat, Good Reflex, Weapon Focus in Diety's Favored Weapon at 1st level, Weapon Specialization in Diety's Favored Weapon at 3rd Level, Greater Weapon Focus at 7th Level, Greater Weapon Specialization at 9th, Improved Critical in their Diety's Favored Weapon at 11th, and the Ability to Manifest Wings(Fly Speed(60', Good) at 13th level


    Militant Priest

    Level: 1st
    Replaces: Domains, and Domain Channeling
    Gains: Full Base Attack Bonus, Martial Weapon Proficiencies, and a Fighter Bonus Feat at 2nd and 5th levels.

    Last edited by Zman; 2013-12-17 at 09:23 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    Changelog:

    12-31-12
    Added Miracle
    Added Sanctuary
    Added Bonus Feats
    Added Domain Channeling
    Added Sainthood
    Added Lesser Sainthood and gradual acquisition.

    1-3-13
    Sainthood for evil and Nuetral clerics,

    1-6-13
    Added a much smaller cost for Lesser Miracles.

    1-7-13
    Reduced Lesser Miracle Cost to 1000xp usable 1/day. Added Miracle clause to avoide abuse with Thought Bottles, etc.

    1-26-13
    Added Cloisered Cleric and Militent Proest ACF's

    1-27-13
    Clerics are now Spontaneous Casters.


    1-29-13
    Sainthood and Lessersainthood now in line with future LA fix.

    2-4-13
    Fixed Favored Soul ACF mistakes

    12-9-13
    Added Champion of Good or Evil ACF

    12-17-13
    Game Favored Soul ACF Domain Casting back.
    Last edited by Zman; 2013-12-17 at 09:24 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    Bumping.

    Added the Special Abilities and am looking for feedback.

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    How is miracle a relevant ability, when they have it on their spell list anyway and for cheaper?

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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    How is miracle a relevant ability, when they have it on their spell list anyway and for cheaper?
    Zman's spellcasters don't have access to 9th level spells.

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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    I'd change the mechanics for Sainthood and have them gain it more gradually, in at least two steps. Heck, that's actually how it's done in real life too: to become a saint you need to be responsible for at least two miracles, whereas with only one miracle you'd be beatified instead.
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    How is miracle a relevant ability, when they have it on their spell list anyway and for cheaper?
    They no longer have access to 9h level spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morph Bark View Post
    I'd change the mechanics for Sainthood and have them gain it more gradually, in at least two steps. Heck, that's actually how it's done in real life too: to become a saint you need to be responsible for at least two miracles, whereas with only one miracle you'd be beatified instead.
    I can do that, I was going for simplicity. Thoughts on the auto buy off instead of straight LA?

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    The Sanctuary ability does not have a DC listed.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    The Sanctuary ability does not have a DC listed.
    The Dc is as it would be for the Spell. I'll explicitly state that.

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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    So, do evil clerics still become saints?

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnorman View Post
    So, do evil clerics still become saints?
    Oversight, yes they do. Added clauses for them.

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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    I think you mean "Bane" instead of "Curse" in the Saint ability - "Curse" is not a spell, unless you're talking about Curse Water.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    the neutral cleric's DR 5/good and evil is essentially DR 5/- since who has a weapon that is both good and evil? if you meant good or evil, then you should increase the DR to 15, to compensate for the two bypass methods.

    also, you should modify the cleric along law/chaos lines, as well, since alignment does have 2 components, and mechanically each is supposed to be just as important as the other.

    miracle should not result in level loss. the most powerful miracles created by the spell have an XP cost of 5,000. this miracle could cost as much as 29,500 XP or more, if the cleric was ready to advance to 21st level. give it a flat 5,000 XP cost, with the caveat that it can't result in level loss (if you don't have 5,000 spare xp, you can't have the miracle).

    templates gained as part of class levels shouldn't carry an LA or XP penalty. gaining that many levels of the cleric class instead of going into a prestige class is the payment for the template.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

    Where did you start yours?

    The PCs were already a special forces type unit in a kingdom's military, so the campaign started in the general's office.

    Extended Homebrew Signature

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    the neutral cleric's DR 5/good and evil is essentially DR 5/- since who has a weapon that is both good and evil? if you meant good or evil, then you should increase the DR to 15, to compensate for the two bypass methods.

    also, you should modify the cleric along law/chaos lines, as well, since alignment does have 2 components, and mechanically each is supposed to be just as important as the other.

    miracle should not result in level loss. the most powerful miracles created by the spell have an XP cost of 5,000. this miracle could cost as much as 29,500 XP or more, if the cleric was ready to advance to 21st level. give it a flat 5,000 XP cost, with the caveat that it can't result in level loss (if you don't have 5,000 spare xp, you can't have the miracle).

    templates gained as part of class levels shouldn't carry an LA or XP penalty. gaining that many levels of the cleric class instead of going into a prestige class is the payment for the template.
    9th level spells have been removed from normal 20 level play with my line of fixes. Considering the only way to cast Miriacle is with 20 levels of Cleric, it seems a fitting cost. This was intentional and explicetily meant to cause level loss.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    even with 9th level spells gone, a miracle isn't worth 29,500 xp, or even 9,500 xp. you could remove casting altogether, and miracle still wouldn't be worth 9,500 xp. the class feature has to be priced based on the power it gives, or else it won't be used. as is, cleric 20 is, for all intents and purposes, a dead level, because that miracle won't be used by anyone who has even the slightest sense.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

    Where did you start yours?

    The PCs were already a special forces type unit in a kingdom's military, so the campaign started in the general's office.

    Extended Homebrew Signature

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    even with 9th level spells gone, a miracle isn't worth 29,500 xp, or even 9,500 xp. you could remove casting altogether, and miracle still wouldn't be worth 9,500 xp. the class feature has to be priced based on the power it gives, or else it won't be used. as is, cleric 20 is, for all intents and purposes, a dead level, because that miracle won't be used by anyone who has even the slightest sense.
    I disagree. There are times when a Miracle is he only thing that can save you and is the only effect in game of doing certain things. That kind of power certainly is worth that XP cost. Because if it came down to a TPK, or the ability to raise your fallen heros to continue a dramatic fight, or save a city full of innocents, Id say there are clerics that would take the option. Cleric 20 is the only way to wield that kind of power.

    Now, I doubt most would squander the Miracle on its lesser effects, but that is their option. Sometimes it'd be your only option, and the more dire the circumstances, the more reasonable the price.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    if there is ever a time where your options are "use a full power miracle or die", you have a DM with very poor encounter design. in fact, if you are ever forced into a position of "lose a level or die", you may want to have a nice long talk with your DM and figure out what exactly it is about your character he hates so much that he is deliberately trying to cripple you.

    also, miracle is worth 5,000 XP maximum, no matter how you go about getting the ability. what you are trying to do is force a character to take 20 levels in a single class to get an ability that they can't use without crippling themselves. restricting access to an ability does not make the ability more powerful, and therefore doesn't make it more valuable.

    because, like most players, if the DM tells me "you have to use a miracle to survive this, and you will lose a level for using the miracle i forced you to use", i will pull out my pencil, and start erasing my character sheet. when he asks what i'm doing, i will say "making a new character that doesn't have an 'i lose' button, since you hate this one so much."
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    if there is ever a time where your options are "use a full power miracle or die", you have a DM with very poor encounter design. in fact, if you are ever forced into a position of "lose a level or die", you may want to have a nice long talk with your DM and figure out what exactly it is about your character he hates so much that he is deliberately trying to cripple you.

    also, miracle is worth 5,000 XP maximum, no matter how you go about getting the ability. what you are trying to do is force a character to take 20 levels in a single class to get an ability that they can't use without crippling themselves. restricting access to an ability does not make the ability more powerful, and therefore doesn't make it more valuable.

    because, like most players, if the DM tells me "you have to use a miracle to survive this, and you will lose a level for using the miracle i forced you to use", i will pull out my pencil, and start erasing my character sheet. when he asks what i'm doing, i will say "making a new character that doesn't have an 'i lose' button, since you hate this one so much."
    Thank you for your opinion.

    There are situations where a party will be killed without divine intervention, don't think of it as the DM putting you in a position where you have to use a miracle to survive, but get to where other characters could not solve that problem. Maybe the party bit off more than they could chew, the dice turned against you, or you made a big mistake. I agree forcing a character to lose a level is not good, but there is no force. It simpy offers a very powerful ability for a cleric to use if they believe the situation warrants it.

    It is powerful since no other character would be capable of performing the same task and that level of power needs to have a price. Based upon your critique I will change the ability for a lesser use of Miracle with a much smaller xp price tag.

    Edit: And if I had a player throw a fit like that, I'd tell them they have no need to make a new character.
    Last edited by Zman; 2013-01-06 at 05:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    and if you routinely put characters in situations like that, you will routinely have them throw fits like that. putting characters in situations like that is bad DMing unless you get the player's permission ahead of time.

    anyway, the point of your fixes is to make classes more balanced. a capstone ability that makes you lose a level for using it is not balanced. the most balanced thing you could do is miracle as a 1/week SLA that is a normal miracle. miracle is never what made a cleric T1.

    planar ally can get you 3 wishes from an efreet or noble djinn. divine power, divine favor, and righteous might make you like a fighter, but better. find traps goes a long way towards replacing the rogue. that is what makes the cleric overpowered. their ability to replace any member of the party with nothing more than choosing different spell selections.

    miracle isn't that great, except for the greater uses. and that is balanced by the fact that the player can't choose what the miracle will be, just like the player can't choose what planar ally brings. the effects of these spells are at the DM's discretion.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    and if you routinely put characters in situations like that, you will routinely have them throw fits like that. putting characters in situations like that is bad DMing unless you get the player's permission ahead of time.

    I understand this viewpoint if the DM intentionally puts the character in that situation knowing that Miracle was the only way out. But, if by player choice they are in a position where it's a tempting option, I see no problem with it. It's a good Ace in the Hole for a Cleric. And being the only way to access that level of power, it remains a viable ability.

    anyway, the point of your fixes is to make classes more balanced. a capstone ability that makes you lose a level for using it is not balanced. the most balanced thing you could do is miracle as a 1/week SLA that is a normal miracle. miracle is never what made a cleric T1.

    I feel a level 20 cleric should be able to call on the power of a Miracle, but should never do so lightly. With the current modification the Cleric can cast lesser Miracles as often as needed, at a price and can call upon the power of their deity for a profound effect if they are willing to pay the price. It is still an option, and access to serious power if the cleric is willing to pay the price.

    planar ally can get you 3 wishes from an efreet or noble djinn. divine power, divine favor, and righteous might make you like a fighter, but better. find traps goes a long way towards replacing the rogue. that is what makes the cleric overpowered. their ability to replace any member of the party with nothing more than choosing different spell selections.

    Thanks for pointing out Planar Ally abuse, I missed it and will add a fix for my Minir Magic Fix. I did for Planar Binding, but didn't think of Pkanar Ally as DMs still have the ability to avoid such problems.

    As to outfitting the Fighter, I don't think the Cleric now does after my Fighter Fix. And the delayed Spellcasting progression makes it more difficult to persist those spells and not until a later level.

    Find traps is a good spell rarely seen in use. It also doesn't grant the ability to bypass or disable said traps.

    Yes the Cleric is powerful and versatile, but does not completely eliminate party members and fixing every possible spell than can is beyond the scope of my fixes.


    miracle isn't that great, except for the greater uses. and that is balanced by the fact that the player can't choose what the miracle will be, just like the player can't choose what planar ally brings. the effects of these spells are at the DM's discretion.

    Miracle can be great. And with the scaled back high level casting its duplicate spell ability is more precious.
    See blue text for responses. I think we need a paradigm shift, one that looks at what characters should be able to do and not one that is tainted by what characters, especially with optimization and abuse, can do.

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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    @ find traps. good catch. what about that spell that allows you to temporarily swap domains, though? kobold domain grants the trapfinding class feature as its granted power. and by RAW any cleric that doesn't have a deity can take the kobold domain.

    i see your point that the abilities need to be reworked, i'm just saying that miracle still isn't worth what you're charging for it. it can be great, if a DM allows it to be great. it can also be very sucky for a cleric to potentially lose a level for an effect they didn't want.

    how about make miracle fully cost free, and say that only a cleric's patron can activate the ability, not the cleric themselves. this fits in with the cleric not being able to choose what the miracle does, anyway.

    or, call the ability miracle, but have it duplicate a wish spell, instead. slightly higher base power, much lower max power, clearly defined XP costs (which you can tag a little higher than the spell description states, but not too much higher), and the cleric gets to decide (more or less) what exactly happens.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    What spell allows a Cleric to swap Domains? I can't seem to remember it.

    As to Clerics which do not follow a specific Diety, I added a clause which requires their domain selection to mimic one of other gods, so no free domain choices. I may need to be more restrictive in my language.

    Kobold Domain granting Trapfinding, honestly the Find Traps spell is better. Casting a spell to gain the Domain still doesn't let the Cleric Disarm or Bypass said traps. And if they choose the Kobold Domain, well that's up to them and their DM to justify the choice.

    I don't want to duplicate wish, but am willing to reduce the price of the lesser miracle ability, adding a 1/day clause. I still want a Greater Miracle to be costly and be used extremely rarely without taking away fom the scope of the ability. As to a greater Miracle not being worth the price, again that is up to you, your god, and DM.

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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    actually, yes. gaining the granted power of the kobold domain grants the trapfinding class feature, allowing the cleric to disable or bypass those traps exactly as a rogue. now, this is not to mention that simply summoning a bunch of weak monsters and having them run down the hall to trigger the traps is generally more effective at trap management than actually trying to disable them (since very few traps automatically reset).

    @normal miracle powers. 1/day is good. i mentioned 1/week before. honestly, a single thought bottle bypasses the majority of the costs of this feature, i just don't like a feature you have to cheese out to take full advantage of.
    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    actually, yes. gaining the granted power of the kobold domain grants the trapfinding class feature, allowing the cleric to disable or bypass those traps exactly as a rogue. now, this is not to mention that simply summoning a bunch of weak monsters and having them run down the hall to trigger the traps is generally more effective at trap management than actually trying to disable them (since very few traps automatically reset).

    @normal miracle powers. 1/day is good. i mentioned 1/week before. honestly, a single thought bottle bypasses the majority of the costs of this feature, i just don't like a feature you have to cheese out to take full advantage of.
    But, using a spell to access the Atrapfinding Domain means the Cleric's does not have Disable Device as a class skill. If the cleric legitimately has the Atrapfinding domain,Mao be it, let him act like a rogue.

    Thanks for pointing out Thought Bottle abuse, added a clause to forbid such tampering and abuse.

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    Default Re: Zman's Cleric Fix(3.5)

    More changes, Cleric is now a Spontaneous Caster. Didn't make sense the Cleric had request his "Miracles" in advance.

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